Ask HN: Who's not sucky to work for?

471 points by edhowzerblack ↗ HN
I've moved around quite a bit these past several years and I feel like every company has been the same. Management don't know what they want the product to be. Project managers don't know anything about technology. There's an offshore team in Traansylvania busy making it a legacy codebase. They don't want to give developers raises...

I see "Who's Hiring?" threads and "Who Wants To Be Hired?" threads. How about a "Who Doesn't Suck To Work For?" thread?

Not sure if this will take off or get deleted ...but if it does take off, it would be great if developers --not recruiters-- replied to this. Tell us why your company is a good place to work so we can apply there :-)

446 comments

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Honestly, I don't think it's possible to create a list like that. Certainly some companies are holistically better than others, but so so so much of it depends on an individual's manager, team, likes, dislikes and other externalities. Companies have better and worse moments, better and worse leadership, but if a company is a great fit for you today, it could be a bad fit in a couple of years.

I think a better place to focus than looking for non-shitty companies would be focusing on finding coworkers who are good at navigating the shit in a way you respect. When the going gets rough, who are the people you want to be around? What are the behaviors you want them to show you? How can you determine that in an interview?

The tricky thing about this question is that a great company for one person could be a terrible company for another, and vice versa.

Based on your description, it sounds like you're looking for a smaller company where the CEO is technical, and understands what the developers are doing.

This is probably an under talked-about part of the interview process: that you should be interviewing the company as much as the company is interviewing you.

No easy answers here I think...

This is the right answer. The size of the company also often has a lot to do with different mindsets and what fits for some people. Some people like the relative stability of a large corporation (you're more of a "number" but you are more likely to be able take a paycheck and clock out mindlessly), the pace and learning curve of an agency/startup (higher risk/reward threshold, wildly wonky work-life balance), or even consulting as a different career path for more independent types.
This requires information about you that others dont have. What is "sucky" to you apart from your very short list? Some people thrive on hard work, others love the lax lifestyle of a cushy job. Best advice? Ask your former coworkers, you shared mutual experiences and likely have opinions to bounce off eachother. If you find they shared similar values, find out where they are now and how that experience is going. This also allows for conversations at length as opposed to a comment which may or may not be nuanced enough to be helpful.
If I knew, I'd work there already...

Slightly more serious, it's often more about your team than the company overall. If your manager is terrible, life is hell. If your manager's manager is terrible, it's going to be pretty uncomfortable. If the executives are terrible, you might do okay, but keep your resume up to date and shop around just in case they wreck it.

One challenge is that even in sucky workplaces, there always seem to be champions that will tell you how great it is. In part because it's a hard life focusing on how your job sucks and many people get good at being outwardly optimistic.

That said, it would be nice to see more authenticity than what mostly gets posted in the hiring thread, and on company websites. I'm sure we each have our own criteria of what kind of info we'd like to see, but I rarely see anything more than the usual bromides.

Honestly, I've found glassdoor to be pretty good if you've had a few jobs before. It's pretty easy to find which reviews to discard, and read between the lines for red flags even in places that are relatively highly rated.

> that even in sucky workplaces,

I would say... if there is a company with 6,000 employees... it's going to depend way less on the company and more on the team. Your direct manager, your teammates, the other teams you work with, the other managers involved... that can all wildly vary even within the same company.

They are fluid too. People come and go. Circumstances change.

I don't know how much top-down leadership effect really has. If the CEO + board of a 20,000 person company feel a certain ideology, is it really passed down 10 layers lower to managers working on small projects?

I had a team and project I really enjoyed for 4 years, then poof it was all gone when the executive team decided to buy a competitor and scrap our team. You never know what might happen!
IDK about 20k people companies, but they can have drastic influence into 2k companies.
Yes, if the new CEO decides to fire all the management who has been there for a while, replace them with his buddies, and drastically lower the hiring bar so the buddies can hire their buddies.
I used to agree but after working at Amazon... yes, it really is passed down.

There is still large variation per org/team, but there are definitely a lot of things that can permeate all the way down. The way hiring is done, the way performance is evaluated and promotions/raises are done, the way weekly org-wide metrics meetings are done, the way escalations are handled, even the way we hold meetings or write documents... At Amazon, all of these things are influenced (or directly guided) by processes that are put in place by the highest levels, and they really do have enormous impact on the overall culture of the company.

I don't know, I think it's pretty easy to ask questions for this during an interview process even if you have those "champions". Just ask "what are the current pain points and things that can be improved about the company?" If they give an honest answer then take it at face value. If they just bullshit you by talking around the question or flipping the question and talking about a "good problem to have" then you probably don't want to work there.
> "good problem to have" then you probably don't want to work there

Well it's a tradeoff:

[growing pains] = [potentially valuable stock options]

[ever changing technical choices] = [not boring / not stagnating]

I think it also just depends on the person. I've been in workplaces that felt great to me, and seen people leave because they found it sucky.

Similarly I have also left due to suckiness despite some people seeming to enjoy themselves. Though of course that may just be an act.

Often the people making it sucky have no idea.
What I'd love to know is how to find the smaller more "hacker" oriented shops. I've worked at a few over the years... the kinds of places where everyone in engineering uses Linux desktops because that's the best choice for the work at hand and everyone's comfortable with it. Where the product is good, makes money, but is maybe kind of niche so the company isn't adding 10 people a week.
I would take literally half the going market rate to work someplace like that.

But I think they're near-impossible to pick out, unless you know folks who work there.

What I mean is: even if they publicly advertise open job roles in all the usual places, it's very tricky to actually know they're "that" kind of shop, unless you know somebody on the inside. Even if you are a very proactive candidate during your interviews.

Just IMO/IME.

Everytime I see something like this I’m in no position to apply to it, and by the time I am there are no positions.
> I've worked at a few over the years...

Have you reached out to your network ? Those that worked at those same places with you

Live somewhere for a long time and in a close knit community. Eventually you hear through word of mouth long before you even consider applying.
I work for ITHAKA (parent of jstor.org) and I think they are decidedly non-suckey: https://www.ithaka.org/

- Great benefits

- Very transparent leadership

- Nonprofit (501c3) - long-term sustainability of the org & product are major goals which (IMO) makes for much better project/team/personal incentives

- Remote work for any position, but also offices in Ann Arbor, NYC, and Princeton

- Education-oriented mission

Do you get free jstor access?
Stripe comes to mind. I haven't worked there so I don't actually know.
Delete
Haha wow I'm getting wrecked for that suggestion. Why?
Probably because you didn't work there so you aren't really speaking from a place of knowledge.
It's true I didn't work there but I have friends who have.
I'd love to hear firsthand comments on Stripe.
Google
I'm really enjoying Google too. The only downside to it is the challenges of working for a bigcorp: getting everyone to agree on what you want to do is a lot of work.

But everything else about the company is super nice.

Lol, this post is like 10 years late.
I've been having a great time at Apple. I joined a bit over two years ago (coming from a 7.5-year-long stint at google). The people are great, the work is very interesting. Highly recommended.

Google used to be a non-sucky place to work, but from what I hear from friends still there, it's not at all like it was in 2012

Eric was great CEO and TGIFs were the thing ;-)
Google is still a nice place to work overall, but as with most large companies there is probably some variance in the working experience depending on where you are and when you got there.
IMHO: 1. Company should be small. I worked in a few small companies. One have grown to headcount above 200 and became a swamp full of unmotivated people. 2. There should be great team members. 3. Founders should be software people or engineers.
Midsize companies are great, but they're not for slackers because people there actually expect you to work. However, if you do actually work, they're good for that.
This may be hard to believe for the HN crowd but hp has been great for me (Corvallis, OR). Sure, we're not the company Bill & Dave started but current leadership has steered the boat out of the mess created by 10+ years of rocky times.
Surprised to see another Corvallis resident here (though I don't work for HP)
I’ve seen some interesting looking roles with them and some of their child companies, I’m just weary of large legacy enterprises. My last job I sat around fora year while the project was delayed due to bureaucracy.
Check out Noom. Super nice people, strong ethics and mission and a focus on employee satisfaction. Bonus points: parabolic growth trajectory.
In my experience small companies tend to be the best to work for, but this varies wildly.

Large companies are more reliably mediocre across the board, but bad small companies can be outright abusive (usually you can detect these with a few questions in an interview... for example, ask how often employees work outside of regular hours).

This is accurate in my experience.

Actually, I'd say you're lucky if you find a small company that isn't at least mildly dysfunctional.

The silver lining with those dysfunctional ones, though, is that if you can clearly identify the issue your voice can probably carry enough weight (even as a new hire) to spur them to re-evaluate their process.
Yeah this is exactly why I like small companies... they're often not perfect, but you can do a lot as long as leadership is receptive to feedback (if leadership is bad, get out!).

In large companies I've had a hard time just getting everyone into the same organization on Slack, let alone changing any policy or embedded behavior.

Agreed. I'd be curious what people count as "small" these days though. Less than 100? Less than 50?
I'd say less than 100, but prefer less than 50 personally.
I don't like working for small companies as it can be seat of your pants stuff very often. A lot of them don't understand the concept of what a fire fight is and how to avoid if one occurs. You also don't have as much flexibility if you're on vacation and your role isn't well seconded. Stability is another issue unless it's flush with cash. It can be a crapshoot but obviously it depends. Anyway, my experience is this.
As soon as I hear "work hard play hard" I know it's a company that expects long hours for mediocre pay, and then the boss likes to go to the strip club on the weekend.
"Word hard play hard" is one of our mottos. The office is empty by 5PM. I guess we're doing it wrong?
there are exceptions of course, but the phrase has become a big red flag
Hey! Don't diss the Transylvanian team!
Yourself? Not to be snarky but whenever there is someone with another interest in play, conflict can arise.
I can say this with someone who’s been his “own boss” for 11 years. Clients suck as bad, if not worse then corporate overlords and at least corporate overlords are pretty predictable.

“My job would be great except for the clients and employees*” - Me.

(my employees are awesome people - this is more about dealing with HR Issues that inevitably crop up.)

I work for a small financial SaaS in Boston. 30-50 people. Nobody offshore. I've worked here for 18 years and 11 months and a couple of days. Yes, we're hiring.

The best thing about the company are the people who are already here. The basic hiring criteria are "clever, competent and kind". That doesn't mean we never have disagreements, but they tend to be technical disagreements about the best approach to reach the same goal. Before the pandemic, and hopefully after it, the kitchen was the center of the company: casual questions turned into great discussions, explanations... there's a big whiteboard wall in the kitchen, and it got used a lot.

That goal, incidentally, is to drive down the cost of good portfolio analysis until it's within everyone's reach. We're succeeding: there are clients who have programs where people start their investments with $50/week.

Our folks are reasonably diverse in terms of background and talents. There's a robust co-op program. The benefits are pretty good -- fully paid health care premiums -- but it's definitely the people that make it great.

Sounds heavenly! Is it worth putting a link to your company here?
If you're interested, I have an email address in my profile here.
That Junior Financial Engineer position looks exciting to me!

I think I'd qualify for the Sr. one, in terms of C/C++, the math, and the Linux experience, but I'd never held a "financial" job before. Having to move back to Boston wouldn't be ideal but I lived in Cambridge for 7 years and could do it again.

I also really dig lots of the topics I see on the company blog, and will be reading them later. Are the compensation numbers I see on glassdoor in the ballpark?

I can't say for certain, but I expect remote will continue to be an option going forward. I also don't have a clue about compensation outside of my department.

Drop me an email (address in my profile) and I'll forward your resume right to the responsible party.

(loxias has an mit edu address)
That sounds interesting. Made me think of the Neoxam Boston office at first.
What does "Nobody offshore" means here?
It means they don't hire non-Americans, which tells you something else about the company.
What else does it tell you?
"folks are diverse...in terms of background" Tells me they don't have any other diversity (hopefully not due to a deliberate policy)
Of the 35 people I can see on linkedIn:

17 appear to be white men

9 appear to be women

Overall that seems somewhat better than usual for small tech companies. I'd say taking 'dsr's assertion that his colleagues come from diverse backgrounds at face value may be a reasonable charity to give him.

No, no it doesn’t. Given the significant advantages of hiring physically-local people, you cannot simply draw whatever conclusion you seem to desperately want to.
We don't outsource our employees. All development, IT, etc is in-house.

That's in contrast to "offshore development", where the US team is augmented by contracted development companies in some other part of the world.

We have sponsored H1B visas, on occasion. Employees are required to have the legal right to work in the US, and are expected to make their legal residence in the US.

Just curious if you don’t mind can you share the name of the company you work for
I work for Smartleaf -- www.smartleaf.com
Are these salary ranges correct. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Smartleaf-Software-Engineer...

Looks like a software engineer would need to pick up a second job to make up for Boston's cost of living.

I've always found Glass Door salary ranges to be wrong (generally much lower than reality) for the positions I have knowledge about.
My experience as well. It makes sense. Of course, lots of people treat Glass Door like it's accurate.
VMware has a lot of different teams working on very different and interesting problems. It's not listed with the FAANG companies, but it pays well and you won't feel like you're making the world worse off than it is.

You'll probably see some complaints about some teams in VMware, but it's been mostly a great place to work.

VMware seems like a place where people work either less than 2 years or 10+ years. If you can identify a niche for yourself it can be quite comfortable.
Agree, VMware it's a very nice place where to work.
I've been envious of the VMware campus in Palo Alto - seems like an ideal environment if WFH isn't an option.
I thought about applying to some positions with them a couple months back, but it was hard to get a good idea if I was gonna miserable or not.

Also the team I was looking at worked on a type of product that while technically intriguing to me, makes me want to rip my hair out as a user lol.

Consider working for yourself under a corporation. Quick to be hired, fired, and fire your customers. You may be the best boss you've ever had.
Well I just tried to use glassdoor to try and grasp how it is to work at apple as a software engineer. Glassdoor is terrible. I think there is a business opportunity here. Make a site just for developers. Hackerdoors or something.
teamblind.com is closer. Lots of good commentary on various companies and hiring processes. The site itself is god awful (slow, tons of feature creep) but there's some good content on it.
Glassdoor is terrible particularly for startups.

I've known first hand of 4 small companies where management asked employees to write 5 star Glassdoor reviews and which I know they were terrible places to work.

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Keep in mind that at any large company people's experiences will vary from team to team. I can read reviews about my job where people make it out to be the worst place on earth. Yet I think it's quite cushy and don't really have anything bad to say about it.

There's rarely going to be one company that is great to work for all around unless they're small to medium sized.