I don't think we do. As the article notes, these are not new concepts - the Greeks had four words for different types of loves, as recently as 50 years ago they were still known and understood in pop culture [1]
It is a recent invention that has us all confused. The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that"
Lines have been blurred and confused and nobody's the better for it. It is a shift in religion that caused us to lose our knowledge of how to love someone as a friend.
Niobe Way comes to similar conclusions in Deep Secrets: Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of Connection but I’m not sure I’d pin it on a shift in religion but the hyper-sexualization of society that started in the 60’s where every intimate relationship was primarily defined in the context of sex. Today much of the language and expressions of intimate relationships has been entirely co-opted and has sexual overtones compared to the 1800’s. Expressions such as holding hands and words such as love and intimate all now have sexual overtones they previously did not.
I'm saying that the hyper-sexualization is a religion, or at least part of one. It is part of a series of memes that redefine all human relationships in terms of "Power", some nebulous concept that does not really map to the way humans interact except in a very weird misunderstanding of second-order effects.
Call it Queer, call it Progressive, call it Woke or whatever - It's religion.
I agree. I am very close to one friend, who is reasonably high on the Kinsey scale, though I am not. It is a source of frustration to me that deep friendships between men get reduced to something sexual, as if men were incapable of forming attachments that aren't based around our dicks. Women can be particularly nasty about it.
> The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that"
to counter your anecdote, in all my years of experiencing strong, platonic same-sex friendships - including ones in which we expressed love for each other - i have not once thought even for a moment about the gay rights movement, or anyone's perception of my sexuality.
i think your comment may reveal more about your own state of mind than it does anything broader about society. i encourage you to reflect on that.
* edited to remove unnecessary sarcasm. as has always been true, but is especially the case now, it's impossible to tell if someone is arguing in good or bad faith on the web. but i'm going to assume you're talking about your lived experience and are open to a discussion on this and not a troll trying to spread right-wing talking points.
"...and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that""
I cannot relate to that even a little and it is wildly incompatible with my lived experiences. Maybe back in the 90's there was some of that going on. But I know plenty of men I could call right now and tell them I love them without either of us grasping for some "I'm straight" life preserver. The entire concept sounds tragically outdated.
There is no friendship in crony-capitalism and there is especially no love. It's all about money and connection to money. As soon as you lose your money, your 'friends' disappear. The more money you have, the harder your friends have to act when around you and the more they secretly hate you because of it. Over time, the persona which people present to others becomes completely disconnected from their true self to the point that they eventually forget who they are completely. They present a superficial veneer of agreeableness but underneath all that lies a suppressed, psychopathic monster.
In crony-capitalism everyone is an actor 24/7 and nobody is actually living their lives except the poor who are sometimes able to live out their miserable lives in a genuine way.
I think even this won't work. Friendship just doesn't work in this system. Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to take whatever you have; even if they have more than you overall, people are greedy; they will find the one thing you have better and subconsciously try to take it or ruin if for you. If you have something that someone else wants, they will take it as soon as you turn your back. If they can't take it, they will get satisfaction from seeing you lose it.
I think unfortunately, the average person is just not altruistic enough to deserve friendship. For sure, they exist, but you won't find them. The actors are too good and too many; they will waste your life.
I lived in different cities in Australia (which I assume is similar to the US)... Schools there are full of bullies and cliques (if that's an indication of how cruel the average person is).
Actually I did meet a 'soulmate' eventually (a foreigner actually) and married them but looking back now, I think it was like winning the lottery. I had to make so many compromises but it has been worth it. Extreme hardship is the only way to know if you've found a true friend and it's not something you can experience often (or at all) in your life because of how much time it takes... Also it's too easy to discard a good person too early because your own ego is getting in the way. IMO, genuine people do tend to hurt you in the first few years because that's what honest and realistic people do; the truth hurts.
You know, man I've skimmed through your post history, and I really can't say I disagree with anything. Gonna give it a good read later.
Most people keep themselves occupied with other stuff (work, family, hobbies, work) so they don't really ruminate on this stuff.
And hell, how's anyone supposed to have deep and meaningful relationships nowadays? Too much work, too many things to do, too little time, too little money.
Most of the deepest friendships people make are from their years in childhood. Back during a time when everyone was young, not so emotionally-walled off, and had all the time in the world to waste. And if you miss that boat, well that sucks.
If you really sit down and looked around, life sucks from an absolute standpoint. Your dreams and ideals get beaten out of you year-by-year. All those pieces of you that made you human, slowly squashed under the weight of life. Either you lower your standards or you keep holding on, knowing you'll probably spend the rest of your life chasing something that'll always slip right out of your hands.
And then synaptic pruning kicks in, and you slowly stop giving a shit.
Year-by-year, it stops mattering.
Year-by-year, all that suffering fades away, until all that's left is a dark fog floating off into the past -- taking with it emotions and thoughts that you'll never feel again.
Things don't really bother you anymore. Sure, they may spark a feeling here and there, but it dissipates quickly, and you're back to a tranquil baseline.
And now with your emotions all dried up, so too does all sense of purpose or direction go with it. Sure feeling like shit sucks, but so does not being able to feel passion or exuberance.
So what's there left to do? Where will you find a guiding light? Well, you've got bills to pay, atleast one mouth to feed, and a crack-addict of a nervous system that needs its next dopamine fix.
Only way to satisfy all that nagging is to go out and make money. Get those dolla bills to keep you filled.
It doesn't make your heart sing, but being able to live under a roof, with a full stomach, and a little bit of free time scratches some itch: "I'm comfortable. I want to stay like this."
So you go out and you make some more money, but now you're bored. Yeah a roof over your head, and a full stomach, and some time to kill is nice, but that itch is still there. It's not as frenetic as a real emotion, but it's the only thing you feel right now, and it just keeps on nagging: "I need more."
So you go out, make a little bit more money; see those numbers go up in your bank account and something about it feels right.
You've now got a bigger roof over your head, a faint hint of discernment for cookery, and some more expensive ways to waste time.
But that itch is back at it again: "is this really it? Is this all my life's gonna be?"
Now you're getting bored of all these material things, and decide to go "back out there." Heaven knows you haven't had any real or meaningful interaction with people in years.
Then you meet some one, and slowly but surely, you start feeling strange. Colors are brighter, everything seems to have a pleasant aura around it, and this is the first time you've actually smiled involuntarily in a long time.
Slowly that wall gets demolished, brick by brick.
And before you know it, life hands you an accident. Normally, you'd be momentarily peeved about surprises, but something's different this time: you're OK with it.
Everything is great. That's something you haven't thought in a very long time.
Then 9 months down the road that happy accident turns into a stormy ordeal -- momentarily.
But when it passes, as it always does, there's something wonderful with the world that day. You feel like "this is it." This is how life should feel like. You've reached the highest high in your life.
A therapist can only help you if you don't understand yourself or your situation (they can help to make sense of it by helping you to unlock new information). But I understand my situation perfectly. I will probably end up converting the therapist to my world view unless they're too shallow to understand it... In which case why would I want such shallow person as a therapist?
If I want to unlearn information, maybe old-school electroshock therapy is a better way...
>But I understand my situation perfectly. I will probably end up converting the therapist to my world view unless they're too shallow to understand it
Or, and here is a radical thought, you don’t perfectly understand the complexities of human relationships. Maybe your arrogance and narrow world view lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy that also serves to validate your world view. See a therapist.
This person doesn't want to see a therapist and as such shouldn't go see one. While I understand the sentiment, a therapists job isn't to change this guy's world view. A therapist is supposed to help people with the problems they want help with. (This person doesn't believe that they have a problem, it seems.)
No one should force him to go and he shouldn’t go if he “knows” he is right and they will be wrong. I definitely went over the line, but I was trying to point out that I thought he likely did have an issue and a therapist would help give him a perspective outside his own.
Crossing into personal attack will get you banned here, regardless of how narrow someone's world view is or you feel it is. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post like this again, we'd appreciate it.
What you’re describing is not how the vast majority of society works. You aren’t convincing the therapist of anything other than you need a new set of folks to hang out with.
I would agree with others, if these posts aren’t just your way of some internet trolling you really should seek out some help. What you’re describing is incredibly unhealthy and I can assure you not a single one of my close friends care a bit about how much money I have.
So you state that whoever is not sharing your worldview after you shared with them are too shallow to understand it. This seems pretty black and white to me and my experiences with therapists are pretty different both in professional and private settings.
It is also possible that many of the experiences that you’ve had in life have wired you into relationships that are functional but sub-optimal. Either a local minima or a sub-optimal Nash equilibrium if you will.
Some modes of therapy are like you mentioned an attempt to reframe your world view. Those modes of therapy would be unlikely to help someone in your circumstances. Other modes of therapy are more focused on helping a person escape the local minima and start moving to something more optimal.
For example a victim of traumatic car crash can’t be taught that cars aren’t dangerous. Life experience has shown him that cars are dangerous in a more direct way then most people would be able to understand but therapy techniques such as EMDR have been shown to help.
In other cases early relationships may have been with people who could not or would not act as healthy, reliable partners. It is impossible to un-learn that a relationships (or most relationships) can be highly one-sided or exploitive. Attachment therapy can help a person model what a mutually beneficial and trusting relationship can be. This can help them to recognize unhealthy relationship patterns and provide them the tools to establish healthier ones and move into more enriching relationships.
I don’t know what your experiences are but likely they aren’t entirely unique. Hurt people, hurt people. Soon the entire world is traumatized. In an ideal world we’d all be embedded in families and communities that modeled healthy relationships that could heal us from these wounds. The world isn’t ideal and sometimes we need professional help.
Personal attacks are not cool on HN, regardless of how neurotic someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not post like this again, we'd be grateful.
> Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to take whatever you have
This seems like an indefensibly broad assertion. How do you determine this? Is there an objective measure or does it rely on your interpretation or estimates of others’ mental states?
Don't want to speak for the other commenter you're replying to, but that could also be you don't have to live like this - referring to trodding out crony capitalists as the bogeyman. There are many more bogeymen out there.
This and your previous comment are obviously false, and yet, if this is truly how you view the world, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In my experience, the only people that actually operate the way you describe are narcissists and sociopaths, which are not the 'average person' by any stretch (6% ish of the population?).
I've been friends with the same people since fourth grade, no major shakeups, no one 'stole' anything in the 20+ years, we barely ever talk about work or 'opportunity'.
Quite the opposite, whenever one of us was struggling, the others were always there to help out. We share joy when one of us does well. It's mutually beneficial, and I can't imagine going through life second-guessing every person's motivations, it sounds exhausting.
When I do actually encounter a calculating monster like you describe (mostly at work in other departments), I just appease quickly in the encounter and then avoid them like the plague. It's quite effective.
You seem to be using "crony-capitalism" as a shorthand for a toxic social environment you happen to be in. I assure you that most of the world is not like this.
It sounds like you’ve had some really rough experiences.
What you’ve described is absolutely not universal though. I’ve accumulated and kept very close friends though a rollercoaster of financial conditions across decades.
A poor nice guy will have real friends. A rich nice guy will have real friends. A poor asshole will have no friends. A rich asshole will have fake friends that hide their hatred and contempt behind fake smiles.
So is the solution to stop being an asshole? Yes. But this is not an easy thing, because with fake friends you are not getting any feedback. You don't notice when you step people on the toes.
Maybe pretend to be poor until you have learned the lessons you need to learn.
You don't have to be an asshole to accumulate fake "interested" friends. You don't even have to be rich - these people are just looking for ways to abuse one's sincerity, it doesn't have to be for money - they could get free work out of you, or they could unload their problems on you. I reckon the problem is a bit more prominent for the rich simply because society currently values money above anything else, so a rich target will take precedence over a poor target.
This comments sounds ugly but before dismissing it, count instead how many of your own friends are poor or destitute. How would your own friendships be affected if you yourself became destitute?
I really dislike the way you put it, but in practice it's equivalent to my experience. Meaningful non-financial relationships are so rare that I shouldn't have bothered trying, every single time I did.
This just isn't true. I've had the same friend group for a decade. When I was having a hard time and didn't have money, they were there for me and I for them. Now that I have money they're still here, and I for them, even the ones who don't have money.
If this is your lived experience, I'm really, really sorry. But I want you to know it doesn't have to be that way if you can figure out
1. How to identify people with a moral compass seeking connection
2. How to be the kind of person those people want to be friends with
@cryptica in the human realm, like attracts like. If you want different kinds of friends, you'll need to be a different kind of friend. And if you're good with the types of friends you describe, no judgment from me at all, go with that and enjoy what you have while it lasts. No friendship is permanent as death is a certainty. Said with love.
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological flamewar tangents. They make discussion more shallow, more predictable, and nastier. We want the opposite here.
> “In fact, their relationship did become sexual at one point.”
Lost me here.
I have a few acquaintances who I know who are very interesting, but unconventional. I struggle sometimes with interpreting what they say. He/she confusion (from a native speaker) for example.
I am interested in the case where there is no sexual dimension of the friendship (at least from one person), but where social landscape presents fluid sexuality as background noise.
I’m dealing. I was interested in the discussion of friendship and less so discussion of long game hookups. Haha
That wiki article is quite discursive, but I think about it as "what would evolution need to invent to keep human parents together long enough that their kids didn't die in early infancy", it would need to be strong, but precisly because of that, it probably couldn't last longer than a few years.
The two main characters definitely love each other, in a friendly way. It's a beautiful story, but because their love comes from interdependency and vulnerability, as they feel like they can only rely on each other in a world that keeps trying to get them down, it feels like their love is just a little bit less nobel. Perhaps, love without the same difficulties being faced would actually be much less interesting and sincere?!
I was hoping for something more conclusive. I have had two good friendships that lasted more than 2 years each. besides them, I feel like I've almost never had friends at all. I don't know if I can say they were romantic. the first one I miss so badly that I wonder if it was. the second one became romantic and now we are married. I terribly want the lifelong deep friendships that normal people seem to form accidentally. I don't know how to form them even on purpose.
I can’t say it’ll work, and perhaps you’re already putting in the effort but (as long as it’s okay with your wife!)
Some dating apps (Bumble, maybe Tinder?) have options for swiping for friends
Other ways I’ve made friends include ski trips on big busses of people I don’t know, volunteer events, and travel tours
I think the big key is putting yourself in situations where you’ll be in close proximity with other people you don’t know for an extended period of time, and saying hello
Can’t say they’ve all been lifelong friendships (some have been as short as a meal and a number exchange that wasn’t followed up on, some have been many years then faded away, and some are still going strong)
People are social. Ask questions about what they like to do, maybe give ‘em a little laugh if you can.
Easier said than done certainly, and it’s entirely possible I’m a bit more gregarious than others (although you can practice that by having small conversations with cashiers, waiters, people at help desks. In the last few days people working those positions have told me about Halloween plans, bad customers and more, and they’re always happy to have a little break with someone who’s genuinely interested in how their day is going. It’s important to be genuine!)
Take a shot! I believe in you :-). Can’t end up anywhere besides where you already are, but maybe with a few more experiences under your belt so it’s fairly low risk as long as you remember it’s not always your fault if someone is curt, or brusque, or outright rude at your attempt at outreach (sometime’s it’s cultural, sometime’s they’re just having a bad day, some people are very introverted, etc, sometime’s it is you! No reason to get hung up on that or assume it though, we all make mistakes)
And certainly, easier said than done, and people have different situations for a variety of reasons. But still, you got this!
> Some dating apps (Bumble, maybe Tinder?) have options for swiping for friends
Anecdotally, I usually hear about Bumble-friend-mode being used for gay dating. Perhaps the label might not always be accurate to the social purposes it is put.
That’s funny, I can’t say I’ve tried finding friends that way. Seems like you can just say you’re interested in the same sex? I guess some people are curious, or more insidiously, in a situation where closeted is how they feel best.
no, there's a separate "friend mode" which in theory is only used for finding friend. I'm not 100% sure (never used the friend mode), but I guess you can specify sex also in that mode (of course that can be specified for the dating part of the app).
I meet people all the time, maybe have a nice discussion. Most of the time it’s just a one off thing, at a bar, at a show, standing outside to smoke. Even when it is in a context when will see them again and even regularly, it’s more likely that they’ll be anything more than a very casual acquaintance or a friend who might occasionally prove me about some topic we discussed.
I dont know quite how to put it, but most people I meet are not people that would really develop into friendship, we’re just too different. Not saying you need to be nearly identical to from a friendship, but most people I meet are just in radically different stages of live, with different priorities and approaches to relationships.
It kinda sucks, because often I’ll meet cool people and have a nice convo, maybe even enjoy myself a bit, but it always feels incredibly empty afterwards.
My friends are my number one priority in my life, and I let them know it. As for how I met them, it’s kind of all over the place, ranging from my fraternity, my university, my meditation group, rock climbing, WWOOFing, language exchange, etc. But I think we’re friends because we really add to each other’s lives. Whenever anyone seemed interesting to me, whether it was because of the music they made, their opinions, their talents, their sense of humor, I always made an effort to keep in touch. And then time does the rest of the work.
Looking around you there’s almost certainly someone you can form a lasting relationship with. Don’t be afraid to talk to people and get the ball rolling. “Wanna go for a walk? There’s a really nice view around the corner that I can show you.”
I’m wishing you the best man. Reach out to me privately if you want, I’m happy to talk more and I have plenty of time these days.
> But I think we’re friends because we really add to each other’s lives.
Being able to offer something is a necessity. Whether it be making someone feel good, or having useful skills or knowledge, or humor, or even connections. But no one wants to be around someone that complains all the time, or is a Debbie downer, or otherwise does not make you feel good. At least not in the “making friends” phase.
This is so true, I like to think I've always been good at making solid, lasting friendships in my life, I have quite a few. One thing that helped me that I used to do, and I didn't realize that this was possibly awkward for the recipient, was to just call them and start talking about something. I realize in hindsight that it was probably weird for them to get a random phone call from me and to have the point of the conversation to just talk about random stuff that I found interesting, but I'm also convinced that it is a big reason that I'm still such good friends with several people.
This is the first time I've heard of WWOOFing. Neat. I don't care much about organic farming, but it seems like an interesting apprenticeship/activism model.
To be honest I'm not that into farming either, I just like being outside, doing meaningful projects, making friends, having lots of free time, traveling. The farming part is just incidental.
Imo, close friendships often begin by witnessing mutual discomfort in the presence of a common hardship.
It is so much easier to be vulnerable around someone who has already seen you at your lowest or most embarrassing and that you know doesn't respond with ridicule. It is no coincidence that 3 of my closest friendships were formed during my most embarrassing freshman year of university. We certainly laughed with each other when things went south, but we rarely laughed at each other and that meant so much. After that, it is all about quality time. The more quality time you spend with them the deeper the bonds form. It's kinda like, if they know your trauma, they know you.
So, how do you make close friends as a working adult?
1. "Trauma Dog Whistling".
Ok, hear me out. No one wants to be the crybaby with no filter, but smart allusions or comic punchlines with regards to common forms of trauma helps peel the first few layers of the emotional onion that they've become by the time they are in the workforce. You can similarly do some "niche interest dog whistling" to find one of your community, but I personally find that having similar interests has very little to do with forming close friendships.
2. "Signal non-transactional nature"
Help them when you don't need to. This one is straight forward. A fundamental facet of a close friendship is that it stops being objectively transactional. (just like any other close sibling, romantic, parent relationship). Explicitly showing it is like showing your trust in an investment by not asking for any voting rights.
3. The long, silent activity :
This is very men focused, but nothing makes men want to open up like silence and a distracting primary activity. Whether that be gaming on a couch or a long hike. Many of my close friendships have solidified through such "long-silent-talking is secondary" activities.
4. Throw rocks at the footsteps of their glass house :
This is the final step of building trust. Everyone wants their friends to know their boundaries well. Overstep it and trust is breached. Stay too far away and you come across as distant. A great friend will routinely walk the line. Their jokes, comments & intimacy will reach right up to your border and then they will retreat. You may not explicitly realize this, but it strongly conveys to your subconscious, that this person 'knows' me.
5. Give them a role :
So now you have a good friend, how do you keep them ? It sounds robotic, but give them a role. The person you go to for X, or talk to about X, or the one who does X that's really cool and I like hearing about it every 3 months. It gives you an excuse to call after they inevitably move away. It gives you an excuse to turn up with the excuse of the 'role'. You really want to meet them, but men are too uncomfortable saying that outright. The role is a nice excuse to skirt around the discomfort.
Ofc, your friend will be hopefully reciprocating by indulging in some of these steps. Eventually, you will have a long lasting friendship that both of you will feel fortunate for. :)
This is such a great post, and puts a finer point to thoughts I've only brushed upon.
>witnessing mutual discomfort in the presence of a common hardship.
This reminds me of Sebastian Junger's book Tribe where he talks about how authentic camaraderie is formed in the presence of hardship. I think there's a reason why bonds formed during military service or true existential threat are held in such high esteem.
Maybe it would help the OP to deliberately put themselves outside of their comfort zone in arenas where failure is a distinct possibility but you must work with other people to avoid it.
The initial connection may be random or "accidental". But friendships require work. Meeting up, hanging out, phone conversations all require some initiative to reach out and set something up (that's the work part). It won't feel like effort in a friendship but the commitment to staying in touch is key.
Also @ReactiveJelly, the long lost friend you mention (assuming he/she is still alive), just reach out. With true friends, no amount of time or distance can diminish the bond. Speaking from multiple experiences. If you fucked it up somehow, make amends. A good friend is worth it.
I think it's extremely telling that our culture equates love with sex so much, that you differentiate friendship (the most common form of relationship) with 'love without sex' rather than marriage (or whatever) as 'love with sex'.
IMO. the equating of love with sex is why so many find it difficult to make friends.
I also find the love=sex equivalence very strange. IMO it stunts the development of close friendships who feel as if they can't form emotional bonds without also forming physical ones.
Then it also acts as a false forcing function to consider oneself bi-sexual because they love and enjoy a wide variety of people, despite not actually desiring to pursue a sexual relationship with all of them. It's bizarre how often I've heard "I'm kinda bi, but like only want to date gender Foo". Like, WTF is our notion of love anymore, and how badly are we messing up the next generation.
This is quite an interesting take about Romantic friendship. It is a spectacle that there are different kinds of perspectives regarding love. As deep and lasting love comes in different terms.
After discovering that I'm "poly", whatever that means, I realized that there is absolutely no point for me to "sever" my relationships or "break up" and transition tht person into an "ex". I've decided to keep all my relationships working and sustain them as much as possible, within sane reason.
(I heard a poem read once about giving away the key to one's heart to someone, but refusing to change the lock, so that all previous keys continue to work.)
This has been one of the most rewarding decisions of my life.
I still wonder about the original purpose of our societal norms so strongly encouraging abandoning a just recently beautiful and supportive relationship just because it doesn't check all the boxes of "The One And Only".
Ever since an early age (I mean pre-puberty) the idea of choosing "one and only, forever and ever" made little sense.
I remember reading a story about a very limited open relationship when I was about 12, and thinking, gosh, why don't they open it up MORE instead of running away at first sign of difficulty?
(The plot was that this couple had "base rules" that they could have sex with anyone they wanted, but ONLY ONCE, and NO FEELINGS ALLOWED. You can guess what happened.)
Later, I just came to love more than one person, and after struggling with trying to make sense of it, I decided that I didn't want to choose, and I would do whatever it takes to make it work somehow.
I started reading all sorts of books about making relationships work, and applying what I learned. I can't say it was easy, but it was much less painful and more rewarding than what to me seems like cutting off an arm because you can't be bothered to learn how to use it in coordination with your other arm.
Later, I found out that my grandparents actually had somewhat of an open relationship, although it was obviously much more difficult back then and in a conservative society, so perhaps it is just in my genes?
I'm honored that you registered in order to reply to my comment.
You're right, I avoid hard decisions, because usually they are the result of constrained thinking, and better alternatives are available if you open up your perspective.
For example, when focused on trying to make a "hard decision" to choose Awesome Partner A vs. Awesome Partner B, it is easy to overlook the EASY decision to choose both.
I don’t think it’s a recent societal norm, but is exaggerated due to existence of numerous means of communication. I suppose people in the past would suggest ‘ignore your ex’ and this would be 100% doable since you would have 0 chance of seeing or talking to her again unless you stepped at her door. Now you need to unfriend and block him from tens of different services, hence it slmost becomes like a game “why she blocked me? What did she post in ig? Who follows her in spotify?” etc.
In any case i also share your question how people can put into a generic “my terrible exes” bucket even people that they loved deeply and could at least have some basic communication or interests in the future.
If all of your exes are still significant parts of your life, how do you determine who will look after the kids when you are busy with work or aren't feeling well? Are they all willing to engage in major parental roles, and to take those roles seriously?
Well, I can't say for sure, because I am not at that point, but I consider it a possibility and huge benefit.
In fact, a two-parent family seems barely sustainable to me, precisely because of what you said: If one person so much as gets the flu, suddenly there's one adult taking care of both the kids and the recovering adult.
With more than two on duty, it can significantly soften the impact.
And, again, I technically don't have any "exes", only perhaps dormant relationships. :)
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[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 155 ms ] threadIt is a recent invention that has us all confused. The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that"
Lines have been blurred and confused and nobody's the better for it. It is a shift in religion that caused us to lose our knowledge of how to love someone as a friend.
[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/the-secret-li...
https://dustyoldthing.com/19th-century-concept-of-friendship...
Call it Queer, call it Progressive, call it Woke or whatever - It's religion.
do you mean society would be better off if gay rights took longer to catch on?
> nobody is better for it... shift in religion
I am better for it. I have never been religious, though.
to counter your anecdote, in all my years of experiencing strong, platonic same-sex friendships - including ones in which we expressed love for each other - i have not once thought even for a moment about the gay rights movement, or anyone's perception of my sexuality.
i think your comment may reveal more about your own state of mind than it does anything broader about society. i encourage you to reflect on that.
* edited to remove unnecessary sarcasm. as has always been true, but is especially the case now, it's impossible to tell if someone is arguing in good or bad faith on the web. but i'm going to assume you're talking about your lived experience and are open to a discussion on this and not a troll trying to spread right-wing talking points.
Seems like you are the one trying to troll here. Probably it depends on where you live but my experience align with those of GP.
I cannot relate to that even a little and it is wildly incompatible with my lived experiences. Maybe back in the 90's there was some of that going on. But I know plenty of men I could call right now and tell them I love them without either of us grasping for some "I'm straight" life preserver. The entire concept sounds tragically outdated.
In crony-capitalism everyone is an actor 24/7 and nobody is actually living their lives except the poor who are sometimes able to live out their miserable lives in a genuine way.
I think unfortunately, the average person is just not altruistic enough to deserve friendship. For sure, they exist, but you won't find them. The actors are too good and too many; they will waste your life.
Actually I did meet a 'soulmate' eventually (a foreigner actually) and married them but looking back now, I think it was like winning the lottery. I had to make so many compromises but it has been worth it. Extreme hardship is the only way to know if you've found a true friend and it's not something you can experience often (or at all) in your life because of how much time it takes... Also it's too easy to discard a good person too early because your own ego is getting in the way. IMO, genuine people do tend to hurt you in the first few years because that's what honest and realistic people do; the truth hurts.
Most people keep themselves occupied with other stuff (work, family, hobbies, work) so they don't really ruminate on this stuff.
And hell, how's anyone supposed to have deep and meaningful relationships nowadays? Too much work, too many things to do, too little time, too little money.
Most of the deepest friendships people make are from their years in childhood. Back during a time when everyone was young, not so emotionally-walled off, and had all the time in the world to waste. And if you miss that boat, well that sucks.
If you really sit down and looked around, life sucks from an absolute standpoint. Your dreams and ideals get beaten out of you year-by-year. All those pieces of you that made you human, slowly squashed under the weight of life. Either you lower your standards or you keep holding on, knowing you'll probably spend the rest of your life chasing something that'll always slip right out of your hands.
And then synaptic pruning kicks in, and you slowly stop giving a shit.
Year-by-year, it stops mattering.
Year-by-year, all that suffering fades away, until all that's left is a dark fog floating off into the past -- taking with it emotions and thoughts that you'll never feel again.
Things don't really bother you anymore. Sure, they may spark a feeling here and there, but it dissipates quickly, and you're back to a tranquil baseline.
And now with your emotions all dried up, so too does all sense of purpose or direction go with it. Sure feeling like shit sucks, but so does not being able to feel passion or exuberance.
So what's there left to do? Where will you find a guiding light? Well, you've got bills to pay, atleast one mouth to feed, and a crack-addict of a nervous system that needs its next dopamine fix.
Only way to satisfy all that nagging is to go out and make money. Get those dolla bills to keep you filled.
It doesn't make your heart sing, but being able to live under a roof, with a full stomach, and a little bit of free time scratches some itch: "I'm comfortable. I want to stay like this."
So you go out and you make some more money, but now you're bored. Yeah a roof over your head, and a full stomach, and some time to kill is nice, but that itch is still there. It's not as frenetic as a real emotion, but it's the only thing you feel right now, and it just keeps on nagging: "I need more."
So you go out, make a little bit more money; see those numbers go up in your bank account and something about it feels right.
You've now got a bigger roof over your head, a faint hint of discernment for cookery, and some more expensive ways to waste time.
But that itch is back at it again: "is this really it? Is this all my life's gonna be?"
Now you're getting bored of all these material things, and decide to go "back out there." Heaven knows you haven't had any real or meaningful interaction with people in years.
Then you meet some one, and slowly but surely, you start feeling strange. Colors are brighter, everything seems to have a pleasant aura around it, and this is the first time you've actually smiled involuntarily in a long time.
Slowly that wall gets demolished, brick by brick.
And before you know it, life hands you an accident. Normally, you'd be momentarily peeved about surprises, but something's different this time: you're OK with it.
Everything is great. That's something you haven't thought in a very long time.
Then 9 months down the road that happy accident turns into a stormy ordeal -- momentarily.
But when it passes, as it always does, there's something wonderful with the world that day. You feel like "this is it." This is how life should feel like. You've reached the highest high in your life.
And then comes 2 more decades.
They...
If I want to unlearn information, maybe old-school electroshock therapy is a better way...
Or, and here is a radical thought, you don’t perfectly understand the complexities of human relationships. Maybe your arrogance and narrow world view lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy that also serves to validate your world view. See a therapist.
Edit: you did it twice - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29106710. That's definitely not cool.
I would agree with others, if these posts aren’t just your way of some internet trolling you really should seek out some help. What you’re describing is incredibly unhealthy and I can assure you not a single one of my close friends care a bit about how much money I have.
Some modes of therapy are like you mentioned an attempt to reframe your world view. Those modes of therapy would be unlikely to help someone in your circumstances. Other modes of therapy are more focused on helping a person escape the local minima and start moving to something more optimal.
For example a victim of traumatic car crash can’t be taught that cars aren’t dangerous. Life experience has shown him that cars are dangerous in a more direct way then most people would be able to understand but therapy techniques such as EMDR have been shown to help.
In other cases early relationships may have been with people who could not or would not act as healthy, reliable partners. It is impossible to un-learn that a relationships (or most relationships) can be highly one-sided or exploitive. Attachment therapy can help a person model what a mutually beneficial and trusting relationship can be. This can help them to recognize unhealthy relationship patterns and provide them the tools to establish healthier ones and move into more enriching relationships.
I don’t know what your experiences are but likely they aren’t entirely unique. Hurt people, hurt people. Soon the entire world is traumatized. In an ideal world we’d all be embedded in families and communities that modeled healthy relationships that could heal us from these wounds. The world isn’t ideal and sometimes we need professional help.
Don't worry, they'll quickly recognize the neurotic narcissism and respond appropriately.
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a...
This seems like an indefensibly broad assertion. How do you determine this? Is there an objective measure or does it rely on your interpretation or estimates of others’ mental states?
In my experience, the only people that actually operate the way you describe are narcissists and sociopaths, which are not the 'average person' by any stretch (6% ish of the population?).
I've been friends with the same people since fourth grade, no major shakeups, no one 'stole' anything in the 20+ years, we barely ever talk about work or 'opportunity'.
Quite the opposite, whenever one of us was struggling, the others were always there to help out. We share joy when one of us does well. It's mutually beneficial, and I can't imagine going through life second-guessing every person's motivations, it sounds exhausting.
When I do actually encounter a calculating monster like you describe (mostly at work in other departments), I just appease quickly in the encounter and then avoid them like the plague. It's quite effective.
Blah blah
You think you understand the world, but you don't. You can live like this if you want, but like I said - you don't have to live like this
What you’ve described is absolutely not universal though. I’ve accumulated and kept very close friends though a rollercoaster of financial conditions across decades.
So is the solution to stop being an asshole? Yes. But this is not an easy thing, because with fake friends you are not getting any feedback. You don't notice when you step people on the toes.
Maybe pretend to be poor until you have learned the lessons you need to learn.
If this is your lived experience, I'm really, really sorry. But I want you to know it doesn't have to be that way if you can figure out
1. How to identify people with a moral compass seeking connection
2. How to be the kind of person those people want to be friends with
3. How to foster connection over time
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Lost me here.
I have a few acquaintances who I know who are very interesting, but unconventional. I struggle sometimes with interpreting what they say. He/she confusion (from a native speaker) for example.
I am interested in the case where there is no sexual dimension of the friendship (at least from one person), but where social landscape presents fluid sexuality as background noise.
I’m dealing. I was interested in the discussion of friendship and less so discussion of long game hookups. Haha
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence
That wiki article is quite discursive, but I think about it as "what would evolution need to invent to keep human parents together long enough that their kids didn't die in early infancy", it would need to be strong, but precisly because of that, it probably couldn't last longer than a few years.
It's what nature invented to keep lonely guys looking for relationships instead of just walking off into the wilderness.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80994340
The two main characters definitely love each other, in a friendly way. It's a beautiful story, but because their love comes from interdependency and vulnerability, as they feel like they can only rely on each other in a world that keeps trying to get them down, it feels like their love is just a little bit less nobel. Perhaps, love without the same difficulties being faced would actually be much less interesting and sincere?!
Some dating apps (Bumble, maybe Tinder?) have options for swiping for friends
Other ways I’ve made friends include ski trips on big busses of people I don’t know, volunteer events, and travel tours
I think the big key is putting yourself in situations where you’ll be in close proximity with other people you don’t know for an extended period of time, and saying hello
Can’t say they’ve all been lifelong friendships (some have been as short as a meal and a number exchange that wasn’t followed up on, some have been many years then faded away, and some are still going strong)
People are social. Ask questions about what they like to do, maybe give ‘em a little laugh if you can.
Easier said than done certainly, and it’s entirely possible I’m a bit more gregarious than others (although you can practice that by having small conversations with cashiers, waiters, people at help desks. In the last few days people working those positions have told me about Halloween plans, bad customers and more, and they’re always happy to have a little break with someone who’s genuinely interested in how their day is going. It’s important to be genuine!)
Take a shot! I believe in you :-). Can’t end up anywhere besides where you already are, but maybe with a few more experiences under your belt so it’s fairly low risk as long as you remember it’s not always your fault if someone is curt, or brusque, or outright rude at your attempt at outreach (sometime’s it’s cultural, sometime’s they’re just having a bad day, some people are very introverted, etc, sometime’s it is you! No reason to get hung up on that or assume it though, we all make mistakes)
And certainly, easier said than done, and people have different situations for a variety of reasons. But still, you got this!
Anecdotally, I usually hear about Bumble-friend-mode being used for gay dating. Perhaps the label might not always be accurate to the social purposes it is put.
I dont know quite how to put it, but most people I meet are not people that would really develop into friendship, we’re just too different. Not saying you need to be nearly identical to from a friendship, but most people I meet are just in radically different stages of live, with different priorities and approaches to relationships.
It kinda sucks, because often I’ll meet cool people and have a nice convo, maybe even enjoy myself a bit, but it always feels incredibly empty afterwards.
Looking around you there’s almost certainly someone you can form a lasting relationship with. Don’t be afraid to talk to people and get the ball rolling. “Wanna go for a walk? There’s a really nice view around the corner that I can show you.”
I’m wishing you the best man. Reach out to me privately if you want, I’m happy to talk more and I have plenty of time these days.
Being able to offer something is a necessity. Whether it be making someone feel good, or having useful skills or knowledge, or humor, or even connections. But no one wants to be around someone that complains all the time, or is a Debbie downer, or otherwise does not make you feel good. At least not in the “making friends” phase.
This is so true, I like to think I've always been good at making solid, lasting friendships in my life, I have quite a few. One thing that helped me that I used to do, and I didn't realize that this was possibly awkward for the recipient, was to just call them and start talking about something. I realize in hindsight that it was probably weird for them to get a random phone call from me and to have the point of the conversation to just talk about random stuff that I found interesting, but I'm also convinced that it is a big reason that I'm still such good friends with several people.
- Shared work/school experience of people my own age
- Hobbies
They do get tougher with age.
It is so much easier to be vulnerable around someone who has already seen you at your lowest or most embarrassing and that you know doesn't respond with ridicule. It is no coincidence that 3 of my closest friendships were formed during my most embarrassing freshman year of university. We certainly laughed with each other when things went south, but we rarely laughed at each other and that meant so much. After that, it is all about quality time. The more quality time you spend with them the deeper the bonds form. It's kinda like, if they know your trauma, they know you.
So, how do you make close friends as a working adult?
1. "Trauma Dog Whistling".
Ok, hear me out. No one wants to be the crybaby with no filter, but smart allusions or comic punchlines with regards to common forms of trauma helps peel the first few layers of the emotional onion that they've become by the time they are in the workforce. You can similarly do some "niche interest dog whistling" to find one of your community, but I personally find that having similar interests has very little to do with forming close friendships.
2. "Signal non-transactional nature"
Help them when you don't need to. This one is straight forward. A fundamental facet of a close friendship is that it stops being objectively transactional. (just like any other close sibling, romantic, parent relationship). Explicitly showing it is like showing your trust in an investment by not asking for any voting rights.
3. The long, silent activity :
This is very men focused, but nothing makes men want to open up like silence and a distracting primary activity. Whether that be gaming on a couch or a long hike. Many of my close friendships have solidified through such "long-silent-talking is secondary" activities.
4. Throw rocks at the footsteps of their glass house :
This is the final step of building trust. Everyone wants their friends to know their boundaries well. Overstep it and trust is breached. Stay too far away and you come across as distant. A great friend will routinely walk the line. Their jokes, comments & intimacy will reach right up to your border and then they will retreat. You may not explicitly realize this, but it strongly conveys to your subconscious, that this person 'knows' me.
5. Give them a role :
So now you have a good friend, how do you keep them ? It sounds robotic, but give them a role. The person you go to for X, or talk to about X, or the one who does X that's really cool and I like hearing about it every 3 months. It gives you an excuse to call after they inevitably move away. It gives you an excuse to turn up with the excuse of the 'role'. You really want to meet them, but men are too uncomfortable saying that outright. The role is a nice excuse to skirt around the discomfort.
Ofc, your friend will be hopefully reciprocating by indulging in some of these steps. Eventually, you will have a long lasting friendship that both of you will feel fortunate for. :)
>witnessing mutual discomfort in the presence of a common hardship.
This reminds me of Sebastian Junger's book Tribe where he talks about how authentic camaraderie is formed in the presence of hardship. I think there's a reason why bonds formed during military service or true existential threat are held in such high esteem.
Maybe it would help the OP to deliberately put themselves outside of their comfort zone in arenas where failure is a distinct possibility but you must work with other people to avoid it.
I meet somebody and we have a good chat, oh i need my friends number. Not a strangers.
Also @ReactiveJelly, the long lost friend you mention (assuming he/she is still alive), just reach out. With true friends, no amount of time or distance can diminish the bond. Speaking from multiple experiences. If you fucked it up somehow, make amends. A good friend is worth it.
IMO. the equating of love with sex is why so many find it difficult to make friends.
Then it also acts as a false forcing function to consider oneself bi-sexual because they love and enjoy a wide variety of people, despite not actually desiring to pursue a sexual relationship with all of them. It's bizarre how often I've heard "I'm kinda bi, but like only want to date gender Foo". Like, WTF is our notion of love anymore, and how badly are we messing up the next generation.
(I heard a poem read once about giving away the key to one's heart to someone, but refusing to change the lock, so that all previous keys continue to work.)
This has been one of the most rewarding decisions of my life.
I still wonder about the original purpose of our societal norms so strongly encouraging abandoning a just recently beautiful and supportive relationship just because it doesn't check all the boxes of "The One And Only".
Interesting. How did you come to discover this?
I remember reading a story about a very limited open relationship when I was about 12, and thinking, gosh, why don't they open it up MORE instead of running away at first sign of difficulty?
(The plot was that this couple had "base rules" that they could have sex with anyone they wanted, but ONLY ONCE, and NO FEELINGS ALLOWED. You can guess what happened.)
Later, I just came to love more than one person, and after struggling with trying to make sense of it, I decided that I didn't want to choose, and I would do whatever it takes to make it work somehow.
I started reading all sorts of books about making relationships work, and applying what I learned. I can't say it was easy, but it was much less painful and more rewarding than what to me seems like cutting off an arm because you can't be bothered to learn how to use it in coordination with your other arm.
Later, I found out that my grandparents actually had somewhat of an open relationship, although it was obviously much more difficult back then and in a conservative society, so perhaps it is just in my genes?
You're right, I avoid hard decisions, because usually they are the result of constrained thinking, and better alternatives are available if you open up your perspective.
For example, when focused on trying to make a "hard decision" to choose Awesome Partner A vs. Awesome Partner B, it is easy to overlook the EASY decision to choose both.
In any case i also share your question how people can put into a generic “my terrible exes” bucket even people that they loved deeply and could at least have some basic communication or interests in the future.
In fact, a two-parent family seems barely sustainable to me, precisely because of what you said: If one person so much as gets the flu, suddenly there's one adult taking care of both the kids and the recovering adult.
With more than two on duty, it can significantly soften the impact.
And, again, I technically don't have any "exes", only perhaps dormant relationships. :)