And? So what? Everyone else does it. The US does surveillance. The UK does. Germany and France do it. The Saudis do it. The Jordanians do it. China and Japan do it. And many more... But when Jews do it... Well, that's a big problem. Jews can't do anything without the world crying "Evil!".
yeah, it has been like this for millennia.
Actually, the conversation was Israel's use of a facial recognition program against a captive population. You deflected it by saying "well all countries do that" and conflated criticism of Israel with criticism of all Jews.
I'm Jewish. I'm not a Zionist. You don't speak for us and it's frankly embarrassing to see discussion of modern day apartheid state shut down because "teacher teacher we didn't start it!"
Alright then. Let's create a Palestinean state, ask all the Palestinians inside of Israel to move there, to be governed by their own elected government, and stop attacking Israel.
Oh, wait... Yeah, no. You do understand that the so called "Apartheid" doesn't exists, right? If you ask the Israeli Arabs if they would move to "Palestine", the majority would tell you no. The Arabs living inside of Israel, not Gaza, and not the west bank, have the same rights, votes, representation in the Knesset (congress), free education, free healthcare, and the same rights to work than jews, Druze, christians, and the Bahai. If you have 90% of the terrorism coming from a specific place, you will monitor that. It has nothing to do with apartheid. And you saying this, specially as a jew, shows a complete ignorance for the subject at hand. I lived in Israel for 20 years. I lived in South Africa during the apartheid, I saw what that is. I also lived in South America during the Juntas and military governments. Israel is neither.
People don't spend the time in Israel understanding this, or at least reading about it.
Sorry, but it doesn't matter how much you scream or how much you can call me anything, truth is truth.
Have a good one.
"Let's create a Palestinean state, ask all the Palestinians inside of Israel to move there"
Aren't you guys building settlements there for the Jews only? I may be wrong but this is the last thing I remember about the West Bank, Palestinians are forced to leave.
It's way easier to be anti Zionist from the comfy U.S right? You get all the benefits of appearing super moral and progressive and none of the risks. What's it to you if Israelis are (again) thrown out to become refugees all over the place. You've got zero skin the game. For us Israeli Jews end of Zionism probably means being refugees somewhere (hopefully Europe will agree to take a big portion but who knows). Sure, some Israelis (not all, not even the majority) have European citizenships but we all see how lovely it is being Jewish in Europe.
I mean, I'm all for the U.S to cease existing and become Indian - how does that sound? Give all the land back to the indigenous people and the underprivileged.
It doesn't. Why not advocate for the removal of settlements then? Do you advocate for China's destruction because they put settlements in Tibet?
The settlements were a grave error imo, Israel already proved it can and will dismantle them (Gaza). It's up for the Palestinian Authority to become a partner in peace instead of advocating for the right of return. That's what this conflict is all about.
I think that even without the recent Human Rights Watch report calling Israel an Apartheid state, most of the world sees what's going on in the occupied territories and has come to the same conclusion. We've learned a lot from the history of South Africa. The right of return is a human right. Just admit that instead of planting trees over the destroyed villages (do a google search on "lubya" or "lydda" or any of the other 530 villages that were bulldozed).
The fact is that the Israeli leadership has been lying to its citizens for 73 years. The land was cleansed of its indigenous Arab population to make a Jewish state viable. The is ethnic cleansing. Many of these refugees are still alive (like my parents). At some point, Israeli citizens will see it for what it is: a crime against humanity. So we need to just admit it and move on to the truth commissions and get on with creating a truly democratic state. The colonial settler movement is in decline. Just ask Ben and Jerry's.
The "indigenous Arab" populations stole it from the Romans, who stole it from... Oh, the Jews!
But OK, I guess then the UK should be blamed from stealing the land from the Native Americans in the US and Canada, and Spain from Latin America... Oh, and BTW, before Israel was "created" as you said, Jordan didn't exist, so, wait, do you want Jordan to also stop existing? What about Tibet? Can we speak with Chinese at the same hatred level you speak of Israel?
And also, please learn your history. When the partition happened in '48, the Palestinians got a bigger piece, and they decided NOT to take it and attack. Israel was ok with having a small state to grab the survivors of the nazi atrocities, but no... And then the Palestinians began attacking non-stop, so, after 100+ years of Palestinians attacking Jews, all coming from a specific area of the country, then, what would you do?
Look at 1993, 1995, 1997. ALL territories were going to go to the Palestinian Authority, and the master terrorist Arafat declined. So, please don't.
Israel return ALL of Gaza WITH infrastructure to support the population... And what happened? The asshole Hamas took over and subjugated their own people. How is that Israeli apartheid?
I can go on and on. Yes, there are bad things on the Israeli side, I agree. But look at the numbers.
I'm done trying to explain things to people that barely understand the conflict at all.
You bring up some interesting points: there are many human rights abuses
in China and Russia. Tibet too. But these are not relevant to this discussion.
And there is no such "right to exist" for countries. People have a right to
self-determination. All people have this right. The reason Israelis bring up
a "right to exist for Israel" is to seek confirmation for their historical narrative.
This narrative is under attack and has been for the last 30 years (Benny Morris,
Ilan Pappe, etc.). It's hard to pretend Zionism is not a colonial settler project.
It's getting harder every day. There was a strong, distinctive Arab-Palestinian
identity and this was a dangerous threat to Zionism. In 1948, there was no
longer an option to buy land gradually, bring in immigrants, and build a Jewish
nation. This was a time for a different sort of action. Depopulation and dispossession.
But I digress.
The actual history, and this is the history of my family, is that the Haganah
orchestrated a terror campaign in late 1947 and well into 1949 to ethnically
cleanse Palestine of its Arab population. They did not discriminate between
Christians, Muslims, or Jews. In Haifa, they rolled barrels full of explosives
down the hilly roads. The Haganah also drove around the city in trucks with
loudspeakers warning the residents in Arabic that they would be killed if they
did not leave. They referenced the Deir Yassin massacre. Of course this worked.
Haifa was emptied. This was repeated, although with different tactics, Jaffa, Lydda,
and over 500 other smaller villages.
The simply fact was that a viable Israeli state was not possible with that many
non-jews living there. Over 750,000 people were dispossessed of their land.
Half the population was ethnically cleaned. This is a war crime. It's also immoral.
Depopulation, dispossession, and colonization are valuable tools in "state building".
But in the case of South Africa, it didn't last.
To me this is basically the modern day version of the Auschwitz tattoo just that the Palastinians aren't in a concentration cap. Is IBM tech being used?
Sadly we don't seem to learn from the past and the oppressed become the oppressors of the future.
16 comments
[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 52.2 ms ] threadI'm Jewish. I'm not a Zionist. You don't speak for us and it's frankly embarrassing to see discussion of modern day apartheid state shut down because "teacher teacher we didn't start it!"
Why should they agree to this?
Aren't you guys building settlements there for the Jews only? I may be wrong but this is the last thing I remember about the West Bank, Palestinians are forced to leave.
It's way easier to be anti Zionist from the comfy U.S right? You get all the benefits of appearing super moral and progressive and none of the risks. What's it to you if Israelis are (again) thrown out to become refugees all over the place. You've got zero skin the game. For us Israeli Jews end of Zionism probably means being refugees somewhere (hopefully Europe will agree to take a big portion but who knows). Sure, some Israelis (not all, not even the majority) have European citizenships but we all see how lovely it is being Jewish in Europe. I mean, I'm all for the U.S to cease existing and become Indian - how does that sound? Give all the land back to the indigenous people and the underprivileged.
The fact is that the Israeli leadership has been lying to its citizens for 73 years. The land was cleansed of its indigenous Arab population to make a Jewish state viable. The is ethnic cleansing. Many of these refugees are still alive (like my parents). At some point, Israeli citizens will see it for what it is: a crime against humanity. So we need to just admit it and move on to the truth commissions and get on with creating a truly democratic state. The colonial settler movement is in decline. Just ask Ben and Jerry's.
The "indigenous Arab" populations stole it from the Romans, who stole it from... Oh, the Jews!
But OK, I guess then the UK should be blamed from stealing the land from the Native Americans in the US and Canada, and Spain from Latin America... Oh, and BTW, before Israel was "created" as you said, Jordan didn't exist, so, wait, do you want Jordan to also stop existing? What about Tibet? Can we speak with Chinese at the same hatred level you speak of Israel? And also, please learn your history. When the partition happened in '48, the Palestinians got a bigger piece, and they decided NOT to take it and attack. Israel was ok with having a small state to grab the survivors of the nazi atrocities, but no... And then the Palestinians began attacking non-stop, so, after 100+ years of Palestinians attacking Jews, all coming from a specific area of the country, then, what would you do? Look at 1993, 1995, 1997. ALL territories were going to go to the Palestinian Authority, and the master terrorist Arafat declined. So, please don't. Israel return ALL of Gaza WITH infrastructure to support the population... And what happened? The asshole Hamas took over and subjugated their own people. How is that Israeli apartheid? I can go on and on. Yes, there are bad things on the Israeli side, I agree. But look at the numbers. I'm done trying to explain things to people that barely understand the conflict at all.
But I digress.
The actual history, and this is the history of my family, is that the Haganah orchestrated a terror campaign in late 1947 and well into 1949 to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its Arab population. They did not discriminate between Christians, Muslims, or Jews. In Haifa, they rolled barrels full of explosives down the hilly roads. The Haganah also drove around the city in trucks with loudspeakers warning the residents in Arabic that they would be killed if they did not leave. They referenced the Deir Yassin massacre. Of course this worked. Haifa was emptied. This was repeated, although with different tactics, Jaffa, Lydda, and over 500 other smaller villages.
The simply fact was that a viable Israeli state was not possible with that many non-jews living there. Over 750,000 people were dispossessed of their land. Half the population was ethnically cleaned. This is a war crime. It's also immoral.
Depopulation, dispossession, and colonization are valuable tools in "state building". But in the case of South Africa, it didn't last.
Sadly we don't seem to learn from the past and the oppressed become the oppressors of the future.