A very interesting idea of moving abroad to take advantage of cheaper labor. But, he suggests taking 9 months of prep time (6 to move there and try it out, 1 to vacation there and think about it, 2 to do research) before even starting the company in another country.
In that amount of time, you could take a product to market, iterate a few times, and gain considerable traction. I wouldn't trade that for cheap labor. As an entrepreneur my most precious asset is time; I can't give up a week much less 9 months without advancing the company.
It depends. Can you do a consulting gig abroad? Work from your current job? Can you work solo or with a cofounder remotely, someone who is in charge of the customer validation?
It's about being on the ground, not spending every waking moment in research.
(I spent 2 months in Istanbul last year, and am spending next year there with potential long term relocation in the future. I'm currently building my reserves and doing my research.)
I would highly recommend you move to that country 6 months before you even think about opening an office or company there. Learn how things work, learn about the people, and about culture and then you can be ready to start your company
He doesn't say you can't start working on your idea. He's just saying you shouldn't start filling out paperwork or start building out office space. You can certainly use that time to start working on your idea, especially if the lower cost of living in another country buys you more time.
I suggest 6 months because, really you are moving to an entirely different place and culture. You can open an office after 2 weeks if you want. I am just recommending a sufficient amount of time to understand where you live and learn how everything works.
...people who work 80 hours a week not because they have to – but because they want to
Ugh, what a turnoff... please keep this (mostly) American silliness from other countries!
Also, if someone in your company is doing it and is being condoned, it's no longer a choice for others not to put in at least a little bit over 40 hours.
I am not saying I condone it, it's just an example of the mentality, appreciation and willingness that people have and are willing to give you in return for things like a great American style working environment and company appreciation.
willing to give you in return for things like a great American style working environment and company appreciation.
That still sounds very subjective and working environment may not be what drives people. Also, what is an American-style working environment as compared to, say, a British or French working environment? I can understand differences between low/middle/high-income working cultures, but it's tough to paint all American workers with the same brush.
Although I admire the courage, I'm somewhat surprised by some of the almost naive American viewpoints expressed by the writer. For instance, it's not so much "extremely difficult to fire someone in Argentina", as it is extremely easy to fire someone in the US.
And maybe it's just me, but I get a sense of a very patronizing attitude towards both his employees and other cultures in general. I strongly suspect the lack of loyalty he experienced isn't just a local cultural thing.
In my article I was trying to be brief. If it was a book, I surely could have gotten more in dept so apologize about the lack of "substance" or "passion". This post is just a quick brief rundown.
Call me anything but patronizing towards my employees and other cultures please.
I love my employees more than anything else. They are the heart and soul of a company. My employees love to work with me, love the environment we have, and truly appreciate the type of company we are and were previously.
And about firing someone - I hire slow and fire fast. That is how I do things. Firing someone after a month in a place like Argentina can open you up for lawsuits. And like most Latin American companies the government truly favors employee rights (which is great) more than I would say the US does. You can fire someone in Latin America and it isn't uncommon for a pissed off employee to make up a fake lawsuit, state they made double then they did, say they worked for you for a year, and be strung along in court.
It's an example. Hasn't happened to me. But I was just stating that fact, as it is something I wanted to know when I came here or like any business owner would want to know.
And about firing someone - I hire slow and fire fast. That is how I do things. Firing someone after a month in a place like Argentina can open you up for lawsuits.
Many countries have strong labour laws. It's the USA that's odd with it's lack of paid holiday time, "at will employment", etc. Your way might be to fire fast, but you must work within the law. You can no more ignore that law in Argentina, than you can ignore a tax law that you dislike in the USA.
I'm currently doing a startup in Singapore and a lot of those points definitely ring true with my experiences so far (though I've only been here for about two months).
I would argue two points though:
- If you're really adventurous and willing to take the plunge, I say you can do your research, then hop on a plane within two months at the earliest. Of course it'll be tough, but it'll be tough no matter if you did it later rather than sooner.
- While you can build a company for less overseas, one big thing you'll miss if you decide to really take your business overseas is the nice, large, homogenous U.S. market. Of course depending on the type of startup, your target market may not be geographically locked. In Singapore, you'll hear the phrase "but Singapore's market is so small!" muttered repeatedly. You could still have a startup that primarily targets the U.S. market, but you can definitely feel a disconnect that may or may not eventually impact how your product is marketed.
In the end though, I think what's really great about it is the efficiency of the experience. Immersing yourself in a new culture while building a startup will probably be one of the most life experience packed times of your life where you can grow in so many different ways in such a short amount of time. Depending on your philosophy on life, there may be nothing more appealing than this.
Being from a 3rd world country myself, there are a few important details that are good to know:
Crime: Most westerners will not be ready for this. There is a much greater divide between the haves and have nots. Most people get disturbed by child beggars.
Kidnappings: Since we're on the subject of crime, this is a good topic. Kidnappings were a common occurrence where I'm from. It's bad enough where you can't even trust police officers at times. You or your family members will be in danger of this, and it can cost either a lot of money, a life, or even both depending on the country. Luckily where I'm from it was well known that elements in the military were carrying them out, so as long as you paid no one was harmed or touched; hence the professionalism. Sadly this isn't the case in most countries (especially in the Americas), where the kidnappers fail to think about the long term 'repeat business' that comes when you're smart enough to keep your 'customers' alive.
Food Cleanliness: Hygiene especially around food prep isn't all that great in the 3rd world. You definitely want to get your shots, but even that's not enough in some cases. My friend got e-coli from a 4 star hotel. Tip: don't eat street food unless you like gambling with your health.
Bribes: This is also a way of life. Not going with it can make business much harder.
I agree with others who feel the article is a bit naive sounding.
Get real!
Crime? try getting shot at because you cut off someone on the road.
Food? have you dinned at you typical college campus cafeteria?? cleanliness.. yea right!
* I've lived in the US & in South America for over 20 years..
> I've lived in the US & in South America for over 20 years..
There are 3rd world countries outside of the Americas.
> Get real! Crime?
One of my really good friends was killed in an open market in Columbia. I've had two family members who were kidnapped, as well as family friends and friends who were as well. These are things I don't have to worry about as much in the US if at all.
That doesn't even count the 'mundane' crime where people just rip out necklaces from someone you know as they're stepping out of a cab... These are not things most people, who don't have some connection to a 3rd world country, are familiar with or in some cases even remotely aware of.
There's also a reason many houses of The Haves in 3rd world countries resemble fortresses.
It also doesn't help my viewpoint when we go out about town, whenever I go back home, we need several heavily tinted cars (all with drivers), of which we only ride in one, while the others serve as decoys.
Given the economy, even places that used to be alright in the 3rd world, are now becoming dangerous.
> have you dinned at you typical college campus cafeteria??
It may be dirty, but normally you won't end up in the hospital, nor are you throwing up for a weekend after one meal.
No, I'm not. The difference is that 1st world countries have a much larger middle class, where in the 3rd world you're either privileged or so poor that you have to worry about being able to eat. It's also relatively easier to move up the economic ladder in the US. Consequently in places like the US, there are a lot more places that are relatively safe and people who are wealthy can easily blend and walk amongst the general population if they wish. If you're well off in a 3rd world country, you can't do simple stuff like that (without say bodyguards) or you're asking for trouble. You can't even drive a nice car without being targeted It's not normal when the fear of someone you love getting kidnapped or hurt is a real semi-daily possibility. It's not normal to have an endless sea of orphan child beggars. It's not normal to live in a freaking fortress just to be safe. I can go on and on.
There are many subtle things that people in 1st world countries take for granted.
Nonsence! why do you have to go to the extremes? The fact is by my personal experience an average software developer (the person the article talks about, not a millionare, not a begger) can perfectly live in a 3rd world country (like, most of south america) by following simple common sence safety rules that apply to the whole world.
I am not sure what your 3rd world experiences have been, but sounds like you where on either of those two extremes and had some sort of traumatic experience.
Your username is particularly appropriate. Of course there is crime everywhere. There's probably even crime in Antarctica. But it's totally nonsensical to claim that a place like, say, Johannesburg, is no more dangerous than Texas.
I wouldn't be too harsh. The guy/girl probably just has a lot of pride and love for their country which is understandable. I also doubt that he's lived in the US or a 1st world country beyond say 1 month, if not at all.
I don't think I'm being excessively harsh, because he/she is blustering inaccurately about something that can be confirmed with a quick Wikipedia lookup.
Harsh is ok.. condescending is worse, specially when "I should be the one doubting that you have lived in the US or a 1st world country beyond say 1 month, if not at all. "
Lived 20 so years in the US, 20 so years in South America, and traveled to Asia & Europe. In my whole life I been mugged a whooping 3 times, most scary one in south Dallas in plain daylight.
My points are simple:
1. Following simple common sense safety rules it is not terribly dangerous to live in a third world country.
2. You won't get sick from eating in a decent places in a 3rd world country any more than getting sick from eating at your regular cafeteria.
Have you "really" lived in Argentina?? The article is not about a developer going to a shanty town in Johanneseburg or a favella in Brazil! it is about a developer going to a nice area of Argentina where kids who can afford computers can be developers but still work for less as they have a lower cost of living.
I forgot to mention driving. Traffic lights and signs are not enforced, and no one seems to follow them. You'll need to learn to be a better driver and parker than a New Yorker, which is difficult.
I've been traveling and trying to start a few web projects for 5 months in Southeast Asia, and I'm not considering starting a real startup in a far-away, 3rd world country because:
- it is very lonely. How do you find like-minded people? How do you find good co-founders or team members? These things are theoretically possible, but it's already hard enough in your own country - imagine in a far-flung country where you don't know anybody.
- marketing to your own country is tough (because of the distance), marketing to your country of adoption is tougher. I was thinking of marketing to the US market because it's simply the biggest and wealthiest, but now I've decided to target my national market, as I have easier access to people here. Being able to meet your potential customers is important.
None of these things is impossible, it must be a hell of an experience, and developers are cheaper, but building a startup is already extremely hard, building a startup overseas makes it even harder.
It's not just that. You need to know who to grease and for what. A lot of laws and red tape are overcome with cash under the table. It's a necessary evil that's really hard to fight when you consider how horrible and unrealistic some of the red tape is.
I think the article is a pretty interesting insight. Given that I've actually been in-between both. I split my time with my overseas team and the US team. I've learned a lot as well. Definitely more than you can put into a blog, but some of the points mentioned are priceless. I'm not so sure about making the move entirely to another country. I'm all about the cost savings, but there's something to be said for actually knowing contemporaries or talking to customers/others face to face (probably doesn't apply to everyone, but that's the main reason I'm still here).
Also, hiring in third-world countries might be a problem. I'm brazillian, and unless you're in São Paulo you're likely to find that locals have a different sense of time, hurry, priorities, and civility. In certain parts of the country (Salvador, or Rio, for example), you should be ready for everything to happen at least an hour late, except when it doesn't. People will expect to be able to be late to meetings and appointments, and will miss deadlines for no reason.
Another limiting factor is traffic. As an american, you probably love driving, but here in Brazil (again excepting São Paulo and maybe parts of the south) long drives should be avoided if at all possible, as highways are full of potholes or randomly dangerous. Also, most of the economy (and hence good employees) will be in the big cities, and these have horrible traffic in the level of London or Manhattan for nothing close to the economic output.
Be very careful of Generalizations. Some have said in the comments that crime could be an issue. In some countries crime is far worse than the USA, in others crime is far lower, again in some countries some people are late for meetings, in others people are early.
It all depends. The only generalization that you can make is that it will be different. In the other words everywhere has advantages and disadvantages. As a start up "pilot" you have to maximise the advantages and minimise the disadvantages.
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[ 2.0 ms ] story [ 76.9 ms ] threadIn that amount of time, you could take a product to market, iterate a few times, and gain considerable traction. I wouldn't trade that for cheap labor. As an entrepreneur my most precious asset is time; I can't give up a week much less 9 months without advancing the company.
It's about being on the ground, not spending every waking moment in research.
(I spent 2 months in Istanbul last year, and am spending next year there with potential long term relocation in the future. I'm currently building my reserves and doing my research.)
He doesn't say you can't start working on your idea. He's just saying you shouldn't start filling out paperwork or start building out office space. You can certainly use that time to start working on your idea, especially if the lower cost of living in another country buys you more time.
Just my 2 cent's whatever it is worth.
Ugh, what a turnoff... please keep this (mostly) American silliness from other countries!
Also, if someone in your company is doing it and is being condoned, it's no longer a choice for others not to put in at least a little bit over 40 hours.
That still sounds very subjective and working environment may not be what drives people. Also, what is an American-style working environment as compared to, say, a British or French working environment? I can understand differences between low/middle/high-income working cultures, but it's tough to paint all American workers with the same brush.
And maybe it's just me, but I get a sense of a very patronizing attitude towards both his employees and other cultures in general. I strongly suspect the lack of loyalty he experienced isn't just a local cultural thing.
Call me anything but patronizing towards my employees and other cultures please.
I love my employees more than anything else. They are the heart and soul of a company. My employees love to work with me, love the environment we have, and truly appreciate the type of company we are and were previously.
And about firing someone - I hire slow and fire fast. That is how I do things. Firing someone after a month in a place like Argentina can open you up for lawsuits. And like most Latin American companies the government truly favors employee rights (which is great) more than I would say the US does. You can fire someone in Latin America and it isn't uncommon for a pissed off employee to make up a fake lawsuit, state they made double then they did, say they worked for you for a year, and be strung along in court.
It's an example. Hasn't happened to me. But I was just stating that fact, as it is something I wanted to know when I came here or like any business owner would want to know.
Many countries have strong labour laws. It's the USA that's odd with it's lack of paid holiday time, "at will employment", etc. Your way might be to fire fast, but you must work within the law. You can no more ignore that law in Argentina, than you can ignore a tax law that you dislike in the USA.
In stark contrast to the US, where pretty much everything else can open you up for lawsuits.
I would argue two points though:
- If you're really adventurous and willing to take the plunge, I say you can do your research, then hop on a plane within two months at the earliest. Of course it'll be tough, but it'll be tough no matter if you did it later rather than sooner.
- While you can build a company for less overseas, one big thing you'll miss if you decide to really take your business overseas is the nice, large, homogenous U.S. market. Of course depending on the type of startup, your target market may not be geographically locked. In Singapore, you'll hear the phrase "but Singapore's market is so small!" muttered repeatedly. You could still have a startup that primarily targets the U.S. market, but you can definitely feel a disconnect that may or may not eventually impact how your product is marketed.
In the end though, I think what's really great about it is the efficiency of the experience. Immersing yourself in a new culture while building a startup will probably be one of the most life experience packed times of your life where you can grow in so many different ways in such a short amount of time. Depending on your philosophy on life, there may be nothing more appealing than this.
Crime: Most westerners will not be ready for this. There is a much greater divide between the haves and have nots. Most people get disturbed by child beggars.
Kidnappings: Since we're on the subject of crime, this is a good topic. Kidnappings were a common occurrence where I'm from. It's bad enough where you can't even trust police officers at times. You or your family members will be in danger of this, and it can cost either a lot of money, a life, or even both depending on the country. Luckily where I'm from it was well known that elements in the military were carrying them out, so as long as you paid no one was harmed or touched; hence the professionalism. Sadly this isn't the case in most countries (especially in the Americas), where the kidnappers fail to think about the long term 'repeat business' that comes when you're smart enough to keep your 'customers' alive.
Food Cleanliness: Hygiene especially around food prep isn't all that great in the 3rd world. You definitely want to get your shots, but even that's not enough in some cases. My friend got e-coli from a 4 star hotel. Tip: don't eat street food unless you like gambling with your health.
Bribes: This is also a way of life. Not going with it can make business much harder.
I agree with others who feel the article is a bit naive sounding.
* I've lived in the US & in South America for over 20 years..
There are 3rd world countries outside of the Americas.
> Get real! Crime?
One of my really good friends was killed in an open market in Columbia. I've had two family members who were kidnapped, as well as family friends and friends who were as well. These are things I don't have to worry about as much in the US if at all.
That doesn't even count the 'mundane' crime where people just rip out necklaces from someone you know as they're stepping out of a cab... These are not things most people, who don't have some connection to a 3rd world country, are familiar with or in some cases even remotely aware of.
There's also a reason many houses of The Haves in 3rd world countries resemble fortresses.
It also doesn't help my viewpoint when we go out about town, whenever I go back home, we need several heavily tinted cars (all with drivers), of which we only ride in one, while the others serve as decoys.
Given the economy, even places that used to be alright in the 3rd world, are now becoming dangerous.
> have you dinned at you typical college campus cafeteria??
It may be dirty, but normally you won't end up in the hospital, nor are you throwing up for a weekend after one meal.
There are many subtle things that people in 1st world countries take for granted.
I am not sure what your 3rd world experiences have been, but sounds like you where on either of those two extremes and had some sort of traumatic experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...
I rest my case.
Lived 20 so years in the US, 20 so years in South America, and traveled to Asia & Europe. In my whole life I been mugged a whooping 3 times, most scary one in south Dallas in plain daylight.
My points are simple: 1. Following simple common sense safety rules it is not terribly dangerous to live in a third world country. 2. You won't get sick from eating in a decent places in a 3rd world country any more than getting sick from eating at your regular cafeteria.
Have you "really" lived in Argentina?? The article is not about a developer going to a shanty town in Johanneseburg or a favella in Brazil! it is about a developer going to a nice area of Argentina where kids who can afford computers can be developers but still work for less as they have a lower cost of living.
- it is very lonely. How do you find like-minded people? How do you find good co-founders or team members? These things are theoretically possible, but it's already hard enough in your own country - imagine in a far-flung country where you don't know anybody.
- marketing to your own country is tough (because of the distance), marketing to your country of adoption is tougher. I was thinking of marketing to the US market because it's simply the biggest and wealthiest, but now I've decided to target my national market, as I have easier access to people here. Being able to meet your potential customers is important.
None of these things is impossible, it must be a hell of an experience, and developers are cheaper, but building a startup is already extremely hard, building a startup overseas makes it even harder.
I would imagine stronger labour laws would be the biggest difference for an American business owner.
Another limiting factor is traffic. As an american, you probably love driving, but here in Brazil (again excepting São Paulo and maybe parts of the south) long drives should be avoided if at all possible, as highways are full of potholes or randomly dangerous. Also, most of the economy (and hence good employees) will be in the big cities, and these have horrible traffic in the level of London or Manhattan for nothing close to the economic output.
It all depends. The only generalization that you can make is that it will be different. In the other words everywhere has advantages and disadvantages. As a start up "pilot" you have to maximise the advantages and minimise the disadvantages.
— d