Pony is a messenger without a send button. When you're finished composing a message, instead of sending it right away, you put it in your outbox. Once a day—in the morning (5:30am), afternoon (12:00pm), or evening (6:30pm)—Pony picks up anything that's in your outbox and delivers any new messages that may have arrived. You can edit a message until it's picked up, move it into drafts, or delete it altogether.
I built Pony because email makes it hard to keep up lasting correspondences with people. I think the main reason for this is because email is dominated by "transactional" communication—time-critical messages that are tied to some particular interaction: order confirmations, password resets, etc. All of these things tend to bury interpersonal correspondence. The same goes for texting and chat platforms: they may be good for keeping in touch with people and for making plans, but messages come and go quickly and they're not really spaces designed for more thoughtful correspondence.
Pony, on the other hand, encourages thoughtful communication and acts as a barrier to anything time-sensitive. It's a highly predictable space and unless you've received a delivery, you know that when you open the app, nothing will have changed. And although Pony encourages you to take your time and not communicate reflexively, it also sets a "micro-deadline" every day, which creates structure that helps keep the correspondence going.
If you like this concept, please sign up and try it out! It's available for iOS, Android, and the web. This is a completely self-funded project. You can contribute inside the iOS app using In-app Purchases or in the web app using Braintree/PayPal. You can also buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/dmitryminkovsky.
I think it's a really cool idea but you have a network effect issue. I would expect it to be hard to get enough of my friends on it for it to be useful. Integrations with existing message apps and environments would be ideal, though I'm not exactly sure how that would look.
Network effects will definitely be the #1 challenge. I considered integrations—I first tried Pony as an email service, actually. I wanted it to be as accessible as possible. This led to a lot of problems, specifically you get this asymmetry and confusion of some people being on Pony and others being in instant real-time. All of our existing platforms come with norms and expectations, and using a non-instant integration was often perceived as anti-social, which was really unfortunate because I was trying to build something pro-social. You also lose this effect of it being a special place.
Anyway, it is hard to get people on, but fortunately the idea seems to be unique enough and resonate enough with that there's already a seemingly dedicated (albeit small) userbase. It suggests that maybe network effects will be possible to overcome. Everything has to start somewhere!
I think the point is you'd get a barrage of ill-thought-out/ephemeral/chatty messages all at once in the day, which is maybe worse than being spread out, and certainly not the 'mindful correspondence' goal.
It's a novel idea, and you're correct to keep it out of integration.
Assume, for a moment, that your idea takes off and becomes the next WhatsApp. People, you know, will find ways to return to their normal selves. They'll cram a ton of links and messages into their allotted time slots.
What you're attempting to address is a fundamental flaw in human nature. Many people are aware of the issue and are taking precautions in their daily communication. Many, however, do not.
> and you're correct to keep it out of integration.
Thank you for your support in this. It's a constant exercise in discipline to keep focused in this direction.
> They'll cram a ton of links and messages into their allotted time slots.
I'm not sure people will be inclined to put links and ephemera in here. At least not most people. I do, to some extent, especially when I want to avoid starting a text back-and-forth, but I think instant messaging is a good place for that kind of thing and I suspect it'll stay that way.
Now I feel like building a small device powered by raspberry pi or something similar that lets one send and receive ponymail thrice a day so that I have a separate device / activity that is markedly different from simply checking my phone
There’s also the “issue” of people most likely also have other types of communications with the same people they’ll have on Pony. Means that you could get in a situation where most of their messages will still come in on other channels, and the all the mindfulness will quickly be lost.
It’s a great idea, but without uninstalling other messaging clients the goal of a mindful messaging life seem impossible.
Yeah that's definitely been the case in my experience as well! Some people just send me texts—and that's fine, that's how they want to communicate with me. But other people have embraced Pony and we use it all the time, mostly for things that don't benefit from being sent instantly. I've found that some people "get it" and some people do not. Pony doesn't fix all your other messaging but it creates an opportunity to have mindful correspondence online that you don't otherwise have.
This works for some people, but I've found that this requires a level of self-discipline that a lot of people (including myself) don't have.
And more fundamentally, I'd say there's a difference because Pony changes not just how you personally receive messages but also the kind of messages that people send to you. Having that extra time and structure, and knowing that your correspondent does too, can make a qualitative difference.
However, no mention of monetization strategy. Are you selling my personal data? Do you show me ads? Do you intend to sell subscriptions?
Also, no E2E _and_ it's not open source/self-hostable. I need at least one of those. Either I don't need to trust you because things are E2E encrypted, or you establish trust by letting me see and verify code.
Thanks for bringing this up. I was hoping to give a brief introduction and then to field questions.
I will definitely not be selling personal data, or data otherwise. I do have some monetization ideas, and I'm really excited to try them out. They're all going to fit nicely with the core concept of the platform: periodicity. One of them is advertising, and there are others. If I can find good features to sell with subscriptions, I will. The important thing at this point for me is to demonstrate value, and then to monetize without disappointing or alienating users.
> Also, no E2E
Pony is currently a one-person startup and the focus has been on fleshing out the concept, building solid apps for desktop and mobile, and getting those apps into the hands of users. Privacy is something I take incredibly seriously on a deeply personal, ideological level. While I consider myself a really solid full stack developer and believe that Pony's infrastructure is secure, I do not have the requisite experience with cryptography to honestly represent to people that this is a private platform. I hope that with enough traction and some investment, I'll be able to hire an expert to help add privacy features that I can advertise in good faith.
> While I consider myself a really solid full stack developer and believe that Pony's infrastructure is secure, I do not have the requisite experience with cryptography to honestly represent to people that this is a private platform.
It would be great if this existed as an infrastructure-level service. Something like the Signal “API” that allows apps like yours to be built on top.
It could easily be a modified version of Matrix or XMPP (omemo).
The protocols, security, and audits are already there. Sending delay should be easy to add on top without hurting security.
> I do not have the requisite experience with cryptography to honestly represent to people that this is a private platform.
Fair. E2E isn't trivial. However, platforms generally need to be built privacy focused from the ground up. It's hard to go back to a platform and add these things back in.
I would encourage you to add these features early, with the appropriate warnings until an audit can happen. "Hey, we're trying to keep all your message end-to-end encrypted but we haven't had our implementation audited yet. Thanks for being an early user!"
> I hope that with enough traction and some investment, I'll be able to hire an expert to help add privacy features that I can advertise in good faith.
Now is a really good time to learn. Seriously. libsodium is an excellent example of a library which provides user-friendly APIs that don't require you to roll your own crypto and is very strongly audited by experts — see https://libsodium.gitbook.io/doc/public-key_cryptography/aut... for an illustration. There are lots of other similarly good libraries. All you need to do is to implement some public key infrastructure, making sure that private keys stay private and never leave the user's device and that you can look up the published public key of another user.
Do you know this with reasonable certainty or are you assuming this to be the case? Either way, it’s arguably better to design defensively and build in better security than you think you will need up front rather than have worse security and be in the headlines for the wrong reasons later.
I'm assuming it, and I'm certain my assumption is right. 99% of people have no idea what encryption is, so there's no way they could care about it. So while I'm not "utterly certain", all anyone would have to do to be as certain as me is go ask, like, five people who aren't engineers about it.
I don't think this is true anymore. The average user may not know what end-to-end encryption is, but they know they don't trust Facebook. And Apple built a whole marketing campaign around user privacy.
I think most people do care about privacy, but they're usually powerless to defend it.
Yeah I think you are right, more and more people are becoming very sensitive to this, and I am, too, personally. But as I wrote in a parent comment, I'd rather get it right later than wrong now. It's a big thing to misrepresent.
I just kind of think that encryption is one of those things that's best done by people who really know a lot about it. Like, I think it's okay to program if you don't know everything about data structures and algorithms, but I do not think it's okay to represent like your app is cryptographic secure when you're not extremely experienced and well versed in the field. Even if you're not rolling your own crypto but using someone else's. The extent to while I'm comfortable using someone else's crypto is LetsEncrypt with an integration for the K8s nginx ingress controller. But I will not personally warrant/represent that my at-rest or E2EE solution is sound. I would be uncomfortable with that.
Even if the author claimed communication was E2E encrypted, you'd still need to trust that they did it properly and weren't intentionally siphoning data.
I don't think most developers are malicious. I do think a lot of companies, small and large, cut corners and sometimes fail to safeguard data well. That's one of the reasons E2E is good even when I generally trust the developer - it limits the data leaks that can happen in the first place. Marketing can't accidentally siphon all user data to a third party via analytics sdk, etc etc.
I love this thought process. I've gotten into the habit of only checking my email at work when I sign in and when I leave for the day.
I know you don't integrate with email because of some time critical messages, but I wonder if you could still integrate as an email/sms app and allow temporary overrides (kinda like how pihole let's you pause it for 5 minutes).
> but I wonder if you could still integrate as an email/sms app and allow temporary overrides ... like how pihole let's you pause it for 5 minutes
I'm leaning towards avoiding that sort of thing. Like how Gmail has a "snooze" or how Apple's Screen Time has timers that lock you out, etc. That stuff really stresses me out. I tried to make this as simple as possible and as "human" as possible, in the sense that the human experience—or cognitive processes, or biological cycles—plays out on the human timescale, which seems to be more like the day or week or year than minutes or hours.
I'm retired now but for quite a few years I made it a habit to not open my email until lunch time. That way I could work all morning, my most energetic time of day, on things that had been discussed the day before without being distracted or having a bad conscience about not immediately acting on new requests.
Anyone who needed my attention immediately could use the telephone and hardly anyone ever did.
Thanks for working on this. It reminds me of a social app called Slowly (https://slowly.app/en/) where you write "letters" to people and they are delivered based on the approximate physical distance between them.
It's common for letters across countries to take >12 or sometimes even >24 hours. It's led people to a lot of meaningful relationships/friendships, they publish some as stories: https://slowly.app/en/story/featured/
I hadn't seen Slowly. That's awesome—thanks for sharing. I really like how it's tied to physical distance. I really want to add more delivery modes, with geographical distance being one possible factor.
For me a big deal is not just the slow delivery, but the inability to instantly send as well. The presence of a send button has this effect of making me send things that aren't ready. I don't intend Pony to encourage people to edit and edit and edit forever, but I've found in my personal usage that sometimes I write a message, put it in my outbox, and then some number of hours later I'll think of something randomly and edit it a bit. Or I'll change my mind and delete it.
The ability to edit really is a wonderful feature. I find that I perpetually tweak forum/social media/Slack posts a minute or two after posting, just to improve clarity.
The idea of email (even if it carries with it some versioning history) that is editable is really nice.
Is there a way to interface Pony with email directly, so that an app isn't required?
I can imagine giving ISL@ponymail.com out to people with the clear expectation that my SLA for a reply is 24-48 hours instead of instantaneous and that my SLA for their correspondence is also similar.
Gmail's delay is fairly effective for giving time to catch some typos or remembering you meaant to add another line.
It's not really long enough for deciding, after some thought, that maybe I shouldn't have sent that. (Though I'm pretty good at self-censoring these days.
Random thought. Try replacing the “send” action in your brain with “stand up”. For me I think “send” is almost a knee jerk reaction, almost a fidget respond where the monkey brain doesn’t like to sit still so it will do the action it sees next. So maybe “stand up” could be an action that satisfies monkey brain while also buying you time to reflect and transition mental states to a reviewing mindset.
It drives me crazy when people post in Slack and then often edit their message after sending. Just edit and then send. Otherwise people will have to basically ignore your first message and try to remember to check back in a couple minutes when you are done editing...
I wonder if you could write some sort of filter that would let you, as a reader, not see messages right when they arrive. Maybe let them "fade in", and only show up as unread when they've solidified a little while.
I also tweak a bit after posting, and that Pony helps with that. I don't usually edit and edit forever, but it helps me get the message how I want it.
> Is there a way to interface Pony with email directly, so that an app isn't required?
Right now there is not, and I'm not sure it makes sense to add one. The first version of Pony was actually an email service, because I wanted it to be as accessible and useful as possible. It turned out that because email comes with its own set of norms and expectations, many people perceived the email version of Pony to be anti-social if not even borderline hostile. It was pretty disappointing because I wanted to make something that was pro-social. With everyone on Pony, everyone is on board and the expectations are totally clear.
One of the remarkable things (in the context of this age) about reading history is that you see just how many people used to write letters in heated moments and then choose not to send them once they'd cooled down. The histories of presidents are littered with such moments, and I often juxtapose that fact with social media. How often has the ability to send something instantly allowed each of us to expose our worst self to people?
If you remember it, and used it a few years ago, but then forgot about it until some random HN post mentioned it, it's not something with persistent utility (addiction) to you.
EDIT: I see I got understood in a way I didn't intend to.
Didn't want to say anything about parent, just pointing out that mentioned platform itself lack addictiveness to be considered a good (successful) social network.
Or is this one of the "feel good, we all should be using it" kind of stuff, where people force themselves to use it, because it's "right thing to do", but it feels more like a chore than joy, something like gym.
demean: cause a severe loss in the dignity of and respect for (someone or something).
Is it really that bad? It's plausible, but I'm skeptical.
Regardless, it is surely suboptimal. I wonder if there are more optimal approaches than "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (my Mom's advice)....can you think of any?
> Is it really that bad? It's plausible, but I'm skeptical.
Demean was too strong a word, I need to follow my own advice better :).
> Regardless, it is surely suboptimal. I wonder if there are more optimal approaches than "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (my Mom's advice)....can you think of any?
The three gates[0] are what I try (and admittedly fail miserably) to implement, though not in their original form.
I generally try for "Is it true", "Is it useful", "Is it kind" - in that order of precedence if they can not all be met.
That's... not a good definition of persistent utility.
My pantry has quite a lot of persistent utility, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not addicted to it.
Edit:
>Didn't want to say anything about parent,
I apologize for my misreading.
>just pointing out that mentioned platform itself lack addictiveness to be considered a good (successful) social network.
I think that depends on the definition of successful. I quite like the idea of calm technology. I think it's possible to have a non-addictive social network which lets you socialize without feeling compelled to use it.
It wouldn't be for everyone, but wouldn't be for no one.
>Or is this one of the "feel good, we all should be using it" kind of stuff, where people force themselves to use it, because it's "right thing to do", but it feels more like a chore than joy, something like gym.
I don't think so. And it's possible to have something that is both - exercise, writing, sometimes reading fall into that category for me. Many things worth doing are not easy but far more rewarding and worthwhile in the long run.
While an interesting concept, I think it would be much more meaningful to actually write the letter. Make something physical of yourself and send to someone you care about. It's really fun. I love snail mail
If post cards are also your thing you could also like Postcrossing [0]! There you will sent a post card to a stranger most likely in another country and in turn you will receive one from another person. I like the idea of combining online matching and offline letter sending.
I definitely agree in many ways, but a core goal in creating this app was to meet people (including myself) where they are, which today is on our phones and computers.
Maybe delivery could be optionally executed through the mail! i.e. the writing experience happens through the app but then the recipient gets a paper letter. No idea if people would go for that or if it'd be worth the extra complexity.
Slowly is totally different and I won't use it. Not sure why it has usernames, when there are no public profiles. I won't use Slowly as I can't have my username of choice. But I will use Pony.
Thanks a lot of the link. If anything else comes to mind, would really appreciate hearing about it.
Edit: wow yes, the telecommunication section contains some sentences I might have written myself over the last 6 months:
> The allowable time would depend on the context: in some cases, a second would be too much, while in some others, even several days would be fine. ... The exchange of messages and information would be slow and contemplative rather than fast and reactive.
Also the via HN post is very interesting too. I remember seeing that but I didn't check it out then.
That's a charming idea. I could see how email bridging might be a way to achieve network effect, but then email bridging might just turn it into another email client.
I'm surprised you took the approach that pickup = delivery. I would assume you'd have a lag between them, with only cancellation allowed in that gap. Basically "you have N minutes to reconsider this thing you wrote, if you've changed your mind and want to edit it you have to defer to next pickup".
I would think a "mindful correspondence" system would have an enforced gap between composition and delivery to avoid "oops I clicked send at 6:29 PM but it's wrong and I need to change it".
I mean, this is based on my experience in email and twitter, which you've rightly identified as the opposite of "mindful" correspondence (where "submit" and "deliver" are the same action), and personal experience with business apps that make heavy use of fixed daily jobs (where "submit" and "deliver" are the same action at one very specific deadline that everybody is rushing to hit).
I'm not at all involved with this, but just based on reading the website and reading your comment I think you might have a slight misconception of how this works.
There is no send button. You write drafts, and then at the pickup/deliver time, Pony picks up all the drafts from your outbox, and delivers any mail for you at the same time.
Therefore, you can change your mind about what you've written at any point before it gets picked up.
Yes, but pickup/delivery time is daily/scheduled right?
So if you compose and submit a draft at 10 seconds before pickup/delivery time, you have no time to reconsider. That's what I'm getting at. I would assume a "no drafts submitted before X minutes before pickuup" rule to mandate a minimum reconsideration time.
I understand what you're saying now, sorry. Personally I don't think that's necessary and think it just complicates a simple platform.
To me, it seems akin to writing a letter and putting it in your mailbox. You can go and retrieve the letter any time before the mail carrier picks it up, but after they've picked it up it's gone.
How important is the precision of the pickup time?
To extend your analogy, imagine telling the postman "I'm just finishing off this letter, could you come back in 5 minutes?"
Except your postman is very observant, and noticed your frantic scribbling as he approached. In a display of empathy he gives you a few minutes to finish while he goes to grab a coffee.
Honestly I feel like the spirit of this application would be "just wait until the next delivery".
Any changes 10 minutes before the deadline? That one will wait for the next day. That way you're forced to think for at least 10 minutes "do I really want to send this?"
I think the commenter's point is this creates a "danger zone" for edits you make immediately prior to pickup. There's no time to change your mind and "Undo" them.
Adding a minimum lag (either by adaptively skewing the pickup time by a few minutes, or deferring any just-edited drafts to the next window) would mean you always have time to think about what you wrote.
> but then email bridging might just turn it into another email client.
Exactly. My first attempt at Pony was an email service. People tried it, but there was a lot of confusion about the asymmetry of some people being on an instant platform and some people being on Pony. Email comes with its own norms and expectations, and many people viewed Pony as "rebellious" or "anti-social," which was the last thing I was going for. I am trying to create something very pro-social. I decided that my strategy for overcoming network effects would be to build a unique, excellent product that people loved enough to get other people to use it. That's the only way, really, I think.
I am sure you have thought about this, but following is what I imagine it can be:
I can give username@ponymessenger.com email to new people I start communication with, like maybe part of a professional profile. An email to this address will receive an auto-reply. It will explain that message will be delivered later, and not instantly. Since this is a different email domain and opens a new line of communication, it will not carry an expectation of instant emails. It will be even better if this auto-reply contains a link to a webpage. On that page, they can modify their message or rephrase until the delivery time (with a countdown ideally). Maybe the domain name could be something that implies the delayed delivery part to make it even clearer.
From the recipient/reader side, this has to be a sacred space, away from the continuous traffic of other emails. It is not possible to turn all of our emails into delayed correspondence. Hence, this can not work as just an email client. It should help grow the network without becoming an email client.
Pony is just the messenger service needed in the ever-connected world. I had dreamed of using this kind of messenger. Thanks for building it. I hope this grows into something big.
If you made this a Matrix client, I think you'd really have something. Using the matrix-rust-sdk, you could even get E2EE that people are requesting for free.
Big plus one. In order to encourage (what I strongly believe to be much needed) experimentation with personal messaging we have to break away from having each. new. client. establish it's own network. Otherwise competition in this field will always be limited. Matrix I believe is currently the most promising answer to this problem.
Yep! From that exact perspective I went back and forth a lot trying to figure out whether Pony should support multiple deliveries a day. Ultimately I settled on one. I think the post used to deliver multiple times a day because instantaneous communication wasn't pervasive. Now that everything is instantaneous, I decided ultimately that one delivery a day would add more value to people's lives by offsetting all that instantaneity. It was a tough decision though...
I'm wondering what your approach to scalability is, as it seems like you're going to have large bursts of traffic every half hour ( with certain hours having much more traffic depending on demographics).
If this messenger takes off, how are you going to deal with say for example all of India having their messages deliver all at once in the evening?
With a bit of telemetry, you’d know in advance what your load is going to look like, allowing you to scale up or down resources (if you design the system that way)
Thank you! I've been wondering this too. It would be a great problem to have. As a sibling commenter writes, telemetry+selective scaling would probably be okay? Otherwise some other creative approaches like "pre-delivering" messages.
Thank you, that's a good question. I've been trying to figure that out. The URI scheme is not something that has occurred to me, but that seems like a pretty good idea—at least for tech people. Otherwise, maybe a QR code, or at least getting into services like Linktree, so that logo and concept becomes recognizable. Am I missing anything else?
It's unclear to me. It's also hard to have something recognizable, but a even just a dynamic URL on the main website: https://www.ponymessenger.com/contactme/<username> where a user can have an easy to customize message, or even a pre-done one "Hi I'm using pony for my inbox, you can send me a message using pony by doing XXX,". That way in slides, mails, ... I can just put "contact me at URL".
Maybe also a mail server bridge ? If So write to <user>@ponymessenger.com it reply with "You message will be once a day, you can edit and cancel, by clicking this link".
I realise this is a one-person startup, but personally I would want more focus around privacy and security for a new messaging app. It’s going to be a key requirement for a lot of people I think.
Being a one person startup, this is even more important, as the “company” behind this is likely not to have the same level of security measures that a larger company would have (I know this is an assumption but it’s a reasonable one).
I absolutely love the concept and the execution so far looks great. We do need a messaging app like this!
I'm sorry this doesn't have at-rest encryption, much-less E2EE. I totally understand. As I wrote elsewhere, the best I can do is be transparent about that. I'm a solid fullstack dev, but it would be dishonest to represent to people that I can cryptographically secure their information against a sophisticated adversary. I hope that Pony grows such that I can retain or hire a reputable expert who may be able to assist with that, so that I could market encryption in good faith.
I get what you're saying, but it doesn't take much cryptographic know-how to at least enable encryption at the database level. Just something to think about...
For news and forum threads you might want to check out Fraidycat. Its a browser extension that handles your feeds (rss and some others). You can categorize feeds by importance (real-time, frequent, occasional, etc) and it updates the main page accordingly.
Can each msg have it's own pickup / delivery time? For example, I might want Msg A to Person X be lunch-ish, but B to Y might be after work.
An example scenario might be a personal trainer reminding X to eat and health lunch, but Y gets an after work nudge to go to the guy.
Note: I realize such things could be self-reminders (read: TODO app) but there's sonething to be said for hearing from someone else and possibly being accountable to them as well.
> Can each msg have it's own pickup / delivery time?
That would really get into the realm of things like Boomerang, of which many already exist. Pony is more like "email if it was actually electronic mail." The post person comes and delivers new things and picks up anything you're sending. I think microconfigurability adds a lot to cognitive load, which I am trying to minimize.
With that said, to your point about overload, I think it's worth considering the receiver (not only the sender). That is, for example, you want to mitigate my overload. (Thank you! :)) And I want to mitigate the strain on my receiver.
Maybe that's still Boomerang? I'll have to check it out. My point is, our ideals are very similar when you take a step back.
I've had this idea knocking about for a while so it's really nice to see that I wasn't the only one who thought it might work. This looks like a nice implementation - I'm excited to give it a go!
It's very smooth to use, or at least to onboard. Did not try to actually send a message yet, but will try soon. That brings me a bit to maybe my first issue: not really sure how to use it since nobody I know uses it yet. I'd be ok with some way of people to discover me, at least in this early stage where nobody is spamming :-). Also, if I get some people to try it, I'm pretty sure some will raise questions about the privacy of messages, who gets to read them etc. so you might want to look into that (yes, I know it applies to pretty much everything else also).
> not really sure how to use it since nobody I know uses it yet. I'd be ok with some way of people to discover me
Yeah I haven't been sure what to do about that except having people naturally invite other people and connect that way. What are other ways for people to discover each other? I'm reluctant to have people upload contacts, for example.
> I'm pretty sure some will raise questions about the privacy of messages,
Yes, adding at-rest encryption and exploring other options as well is a top priority.
Maybe give people a place to post a small bio of themselves on some sort of virtual pin board so users looking for a pen pal like relationship can get in contact?
I did something a little similar to this with Apps Script to deliver my non-urgent email (everything except from a few approved senders) once in the morning and once in the evening.
It's only a slight exaggeration to say that it has changed my life!
If anyone is interested I'll dig out the code and share.
In my view, turning off notifications (or using something like iOS 15's "Focus" feature), though superficially in the same sphere of concerns, is actually an orthogonal concern.
The purpose of Pony not just to limit distractions, but to create a space that naturally keeps out transactional (security codes, shipping alerts) or low-effort (tweets, funny pictures) messages. These messages are usually time-sensitive and often fun and enjoyable, but they also have a tendency to bury messages you may need some time to think about. So while I enjoy getting links and pictures from friends, I've always wanted a space that's on a more "human" timescale—that is, a space that isn't instant but more attuned to our non-instant cognitive processes. Turning off notifications kinda, sorta gets you there, but not really.
244 comments
[ 16.7 ms ] story [ 609 ms ] threadPony is a messenger without a send button. When you're finished composing a message, instead of sending it right away, you put it in your outbox. Once a day—in the morning (5:30am), afternoon (12:00pm), or evening (6:30pm)—Pony picks up anything that's in your outbox and delivers any new messages that may have arrived. You can edit a message until it's picked up, move it into drafts, or delete it altogether.
I built Pony because email makes it hard to keep up lasting correspondences with people. I think the main reason for this is because email is dominated by "transactional" communication—time-critical messages that are tied to some particular interaction: order confirmations, password resets, etc. All of these things tend to bury interpersonal correspondence. The same goes for texting and chat platforms: they may be good for keeping in touch with people and for making plans, but messages come and go quickly and they're not really spaces designed for more thoughtful correspondence.
Pony, on the other hand, encourages thoughtful communication and acts as a barrier to anything time-sensitive. It's a highly predictable space and unless you've received a delivery, you know that when you open the app, nothing will have changed. And although Pony encourages you to take your time and not communicate reflexively, it also sets a "micro-deadline" every day, which creates structure that helps keep the correspondence going.
I've started a blog, so if you're interested in reading more: https://www.ponymessenger.com/blog/2021-11-15/humans-are-not.... (RSS is available at https://www.ponymessenger.com/feeds/blog.xml.)
If you like this concept, please sign up and try it out! It's available for iOS, Android, and the web. This is a completely self-funded project. You can contribute inside the iOS app using In-app Purchases or in the web app using Braintree/PayPal. You can also buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/dmitryminkovsky.
Network effects will definitely be the #1 challenge. I considered integrations—I first tried Pony as an email service, actually. I wanted it to be as accessible as possible. This led to a lot of problems, specifically you get this asymmetry and confusion of some people being on Pony and others being in instant real-time. All of our existing platforms come with norms and expectations, and using a non-instant integration was often perceived as anti-social, which was really unfortunate because I was trying to build something pro-social. You also lose this effect of it being a special place.
Anyway, it is hard to get people on, but fortunately the idea seems to be unique enough and resonate enough with that there's already a seemingly dedicated (albeit small) userbase. It suggests that maybe network effects will be possible to overcome. Everything has to start somewhere!
I really like email as a comms platform and think that it could greatly benefit Pony.
Assume, for a moment, that your idea takes off and becomes the next WhatsApp. People, you know, will find ways to return to their normal selves. They'll cram a ton of links and messages into their allotted time slots.
What you're attempting to address is a fundamental flaw in human nature. Many people are aware of the issue and are taking precautions in their daily communication. Many, however, do not.
A wall of text/messages from a relative is more-readily handled in a healthy fashion when it doesn't arrive piecemeal.
Thank you for your support in this. It's a constant exercise in discipline to keep focused in this direction.
> They'll cram a ton of links and messages into their allotted time slots.
I'm not sure people will be inclined to put links and ephemera in here. At least not most people. I do, to some extent, especially when I want to avoid starting a text back-and-forth, but I think instant messaging is a good place for that kind of thing and I suspect it'll stay that way.
It’s a great idea, but without uninstalling other messaging clients the goal of a mindful messaging life seem impossible.
That's what I do anyway :).
And more fundamentally, I'd say there's a difference because Pony changes not just how you personally receive messages but also the kind of messages that people send to you. Having that extra time and structure, and knowing that your correspondent does too, can make a qualitative difference.
However, no mention of monetization strategy. Are you selling my personal data? Do you show me ads? Do you intend to sell subscriptions?
Also, no E2E _and_ it's not open source/self-hostable. I need at least one of those. Either I don't need to trust you because things are E2E encrypted, or you establish trust by letting me see and verify code.
> However, no mention of monetization strategy.
Thanks for bringing this up. I was hoping to give a brief introduction and then to field questions.
I will definitely not be selling personal data, or data otherwise. I do have some monetization ideas, and I'm really excited to try them out. They're all going to fit nicely with the core concept of the platform: periodicity. One of them is advertising, and there are others. If I can find good features to sell with subscriptions, I will. The important thing at this point for me is to demonstrate value, and then to monetize without disappointing or alienating users.
> Also, no E2E
Pony is currently a one-person startup and the focus has been on fleshing out the concept, building solid apps for desktop and mobile, and getting those apps into the hands of users. Privacy is something I take incredibly seriously on a deeply personal, ideological level. While I consider myself a really solid full stack developer and believe that Pony's infrastructure is secure, I do not have the requisite experience with cryptography to honestly represent to people that this is a private platform. I hope that with enough traction and some investment, I'll be able to hire an expert to help add privacy features that I can advertise in good faith.
It would be great if this existed as an infrastructure-level service. Something like the Signal “API” that allows apps like yours to be built on top.
Fair. E2E isn't trivial. However, platforms generally need to be built privacy focused from the ground up. It's hard to go back to a platform and add these things back in.
I would encourage you to add these features early, with the appropriate warnings until an audit can happen. "Hey, we're trying to keep all your message end-to-end encrypted but we haven't had our implementation audited yet. Thanks for being an early user!"
Now is a really good time to learn. Seriously. libsodium is an excellent example of a library which provides user-friendly APIs that don't require you to roll your own crypto and is very strongly audited by experts — see https://libsodium.gitbook.io/doc/public-key_cryptography/aut... for an illustration. There are lots of other similarly good libraries. All you need to do is to implement some public key infrastructure, making sure that private keys stay private and never leave the user's device and that you can look up the published public key of another user.
I think most people do care about privacy, but they're usually powerless to defend it.
Seriously, sometimes I wonder if people on this site have ever interacted with people outside of tech.
From the FAQ:
> How does Pony protect my privacy?
> We collect and store the minimum amount of data possible. We do not sell or share data with any third parties.
I know you don't integrate with email because of some time critical messages, but I wonder if you could still integrate as an email/sms app and allow temporary overrides (kinda like how pihole let's you pause it for 5 minutes).
That'd be downright awesome
Thank you so much.
> but I wonder if you could still integrate as an email/sms app and allow temporary overrides ... like how pihole let's you pause it for 5 minutes
I'm leaning towards avoiding that sort of thing. Like how Gmail has a "snooze" or how Apple's Screen Time has timers that lock you out, etc. That stuff really stresses me out. I tried to make this as simple as possible and as "human" as possible, in the sense that the human experience—or cognitive processes, or biological cycles—plays out on the human timescale, which seems to be more like the day or week or year than minutes or hours.
And I love this one.
Anyone who needed my attention immediately could use the telephone and hardly anyone ever did.
It's common for letters across countries to take >12 or sometimes even >24 hours. It's led people to a lot of meaningful relationships/friendships, they publish some as stories: https://slowly.app/en/story/featured/
For me a big deal is not just the slow delivery, but the inability to instantly send as well. The presence of a send button has this effect of making me send things that aren't ready. I don't intend Pony to encourage people to edit and edit and edit forever, but I've found in my personal usage that sometimes I write a message, put it in my outbox, and then some number of hours later I'll think of something randomly and edit it a bit. Or I'll change my mind and delete it.
The idea of email (even if it carries with it some versioning history) that is editable is really nice.
Is there a way to interface Pony with email directly, so that an app isn't required?
I can imagine giving ISL@ponymail.com out to people with the clear expectation that my SLA for a reply is 24-48 hours instead of instantaneous and that my SLA for their correspondence is also similar.
I wish GMail's "delay send" feature had a much longer maximum time...
It's not really long enough for deciding, after some thought, that maybe I shouldn't have sent that. (Though I'm pretty good at self-censoring these days.
I also tweak a bit after posting, and that Pony helps with that. I don't usually edit and edit forever, but it helps me get the message how I want it.
> Is there a way to interface Pony with email directly, so that an app isn't required?
Right now there is not, and I'm not sure it makes sense to add one. The first version of Pony was actually an email service, because I wanted it to be as accessible and useful as possible. It turned out that because email comes with its own set of norms and expectations, many people perceived the email version of Pony to be anti-social if not even borderline hostile. It was pretty disappointing because I wanted to make something that was pro-social. With everyone on Pony, everyone is on board and the expectations are totally clear.
If you remember it, and used it a few years ago, but then forgot about it until some random HN post mentioned it, it's not something with persistent utility (addiction) to you.
EDIT: I see I got understood in a way I didn't intend to.
Didn't want to say anything about parent, just pointing out that mentioned platform itself lack addictiveness to be considered a good (successful) social network.
Or is this one of the "feel good, we all should be using it" kind of stuff, where people force themselves to use it, because it's "right thing to do", but it feels more like a chore than joy, something like gym.
Is it really that bad? It's plausible, but I'm skeptical.
Regardless, it is surely suboptimal. I wonder if there are more optimal approaches than "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (my Mom's advice)....can you think of any?
Demean was too strong a word, I need to follow my own advice better :).
> Regardless, it is surely suboptimal. I wonder if there are more optimal approaches than "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (my Mom's advice)....can you think of any?
The three gates[0] are what I try (and admittedly fail miserably) to implement, though not in their original form.
I generally try for "Is it true", "Is it useful", "Is it kind" - in that order of precedence if they can not all be met.
[0] Is it true, is it necessary, is it kind.
I would evaluate it thusly:
a) Is it true?
I would say: overwhelmingly.
b) Is it necessary?
In an absolute sense: no.
In a relative sense (say, if one has a specific goal in mind): Certainly maybe, but I would predict: Extremely Likely.
> Is it kind.
I suspect not. But then, I think HN'ers can have thick skin when required (say, if you are trying to optimize The System that we all live within).
That's... not a good definition of persistent utility.
My pantry has quite a lot of persistent utility, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not addicted to it.
Edit:
>Didn't want to say anything about parent,
I apologize for my misreading.
>just pointing out that mentioned platform itself lack addictiveness to be considered a good (successful) social network.
I think that depends on the definition of successful. I quite like the idea of calm technology. I think it's possible to have a non-addictive social network which lets you socialize without feeling compelled to use it.
It wouldn't be for everyone, but wouldn't be for no one.
>Or is this one of the "feel good, we all should be using it" kind of stuff, where people force themselves to use it, because it's "right thing to do", but it feels more like a chore than joy, something like gym.
I don't think so. And it's possible to have something that is both - exercise, writing, sometimes reading fall into that category for me. Many things worth doing are not easy but far more rewarding and worthwhile in the long run.
If going to the gym feels more like a chore than a joy, then you may be doing it wrong, or inconsistently (some good coaching may help).
[0] https://www.postcrossing.com/
(via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27199225)
Edit: wow yes, the telecommunication section contains some sentences I might have written myself over the last 6 months:
> The allowable time would depend on the context: in some cases, a second would be too much, while in some others, even several days would be fine. ... The exchange of messages and information would be slow and contemplative rather than fast and reactive.
Also the via HN post is very interesting too. I remember seeing that but I didn't check it out then.
I'm surprised you took the approach that pickup = delivery. I would assume you'd have a lag between them, with only cancellation allowed in that gap. Basically "you have N minutes to reconsider this thing you wrote, if you've changed your mind and want to edit it you have to defer to next pickup".
I would think a "mindful correspondence" system would have an enforced gap between composition and delivery to avoid "oops I clicked send at 6:29 PM but it's wrong and I need to change it".
I mean, this is based on my experience in email and twitter, which you've rightly identified as the opposite of "mindful" correspondence (where "submit" and "deliver" are the same action), and personal experience with business apps that make heavy use of fixed daily jobs (where "submit" and "deliver" are the same action at one very specific deadline that everybody is rushing to hit).
There is no send button. You write drafts, and then at the pickup/deliver time, Pony picks up all the drafts from your outbox, and delivers any mail for you at the same time.
Therefore, you can change your mind about what you've written at any point before it gets picked up.
So if you compose and submit a draft at 10 seconds before pickup/delivery time, you have no time to reconsider. That's what I'm getting at. I would assume a "no drafts submitted before X minutes before pickuup" rule to mandate a minimum reconsideration time.
To me, it seems akin to writing a letter and putting it in your mailbox. You can go and retrieve the letter any time before the mail carrier picks it up, but after they've picked it up it's gone.
To extend your analogy, imagine telling the postman "I'm just finishing off this letter, could you come back in 5 minutes?"
Except your postman is very observant, and noticed your frantic scribbling as he approached. In a display of empathy he gives you a few minutes to finish while he goes to grab a coffee.
Any changes 10 minutes before the deadline? That one will wait for the next day. That way you're forced to think for at least 10 minutes "do I really want to send this?"
Adding a minimum lag (either by adaptively skewing the pickup time by a few minutes, or deferring any just-edited drafts to the next window) would mean you always have time to think about what you wrote.
> but then email bridging might just turn it into another email client.
Exactly. My first attempt at Pony was an email service. People tried it, but there was a lot of confusion about the asymmetry of some people being on an instant platform and some people being on Pony. Email comes with its own norms and expectations, and many people viewed Pony as "rebellious" or "anti-social," which was the last thing I was going for. I am trying to create something very pro-social. I decided that my strategy for overcoming network effects would be to build a unique, excellent product that people loved enough to get other people to use it. That's the only way, really, I think.
I can give username@ponymessenger.com email to new people I start communication with, like maybe part of a professional profile. An email to this address will receive an auto-reply. It will explain that message will be delivered later, and not instantly. Since this is a different email domain and opens a new line of communication, it will not carry an expectation of instant emails. It will be even better if this auto-reply contains a link to a webpage. On that page, they can modify their message or rephrase until the delivery time (with a countdown ideally). Maybe the domain name could be something that implies the delayed delivery part to make it even clearer.
From the recipient/reader side, this has to be a sacred space, away from the continuous traffic of other emails. It is not possible to turn all of our emails into delayed correspondence. Hence, this can not work as just an email client. It should help grow the network without becoming an email client.
Pony is just the messenger service needed in the ever-connected world. I had dreamed of using this kind of messenger. Thanks for building it. I hope this grows into something big.
Matrix = an open, federated messaging protocol suitable for replication of all kinds of structured data
matrix-rust-sdk is a client SDK for writing Matrix clients, written in Rust.
https://e-mail.kermpany.com/
I'm wondering what your approach to scalability is, as it seems like you're going to have large bursts of traffic every half hour ( with certain hours having much more traffic depending on demographics).
If this messenger takes off, how are you going to deal with say for example all of India having their messages deliver all at once in the evening?
https://matrix.org/bridges/
Some are in better states than others, and most will have trade-offs when it come to stickers and media. But definitely worth a look.
Maybe also a mail server bridge ? If So write to <user>@ponymessenger.com it reply with "You message will be once a day, you can edit and cancel, by clicking this link".
Also this:
> data is not encrypted at rest [0]
I realise this is a one-person startup, but personally I would want more focus around privacy and security for a new messaging app. It’s going to be a key requirement for a lot of people I think.
Being a one person startup, this is even more important, as the “company” behind this is likely not to have the same level of security measures that a larger company would have (I know this is an assumption but it’s a reasonable one).
I absolutely love the concept and the execution so far looks great. We do need a messaging app like this!
[0] https://www.ponymessenger.com/privacy
I'm sorry this doesn't have at-rest encryption, much-less E2EE. I totally understand. As I wrote elsewhere, the best I can do is be transparent about that. I'm a solid fullstack dev, but it would be dishonest to represent to people that I can cryptographically secure their information against a sophisticated adversary. I hope that Pony grows such that I can retain or hire a reputable expert who may be able to assist with that, so that I could market encryption in good faith.
Good luck!
https://fraidyc.at/
Can each msg have it's own pickup / delivery time? For example, I might want Msg A to Person X be lunch-ish, but B to Y might be after work.
An example scenario might be a personal trainer reminding X to eat and health lunch, but Y gets an after work nudge to go to the guy.
Note: I realize such things could be self-reminders (read: TODO app) but there's sonething to be said for hearing from someone else and possibly being accountable to them as well.
> Can each msg have it's own pickup / delivery time?
That would really get into the realm of things like Boomerang, of which many already exist. Pony is more like "email if it was actually electronic mail." The post person comes and delivers new things and picks up anything you're sending. I think microconfigurability adds a lot to cognitive load, which I am trying to minimize.
With that said, to your point about overload, I think it's worth considering the receiver (not only the sender). That is, for example, you want to mitigate my overload. (Thank you! :)) And I want to mitigate the strain on my receiver.
Maybe that's still Boomerang? I'll have to check it out. My point is, our ideals are very similar when you take a step back.
Thanks again.
> not really sure how to use it since nobody I know uses it yet. I'd be ok with some way of people to discover me
Yeah I haven't been sure what to do about that except having people naturally invite other people and connect that way. What are other ways for people to discover each other? I'm reluctant to have people upload contacts, for example.
> I'm pretty sure some will raise questions about the privacy of messages,
Yes, adding at-rest encryption and exploring other options as well is a top priority.
It's only a slight exaggeration to say that it has changed my life!
If anyone is interested I'll dig out the code and share.
That is what I do for all messenging apps except for SMS. I would check them in my downtime in the evening.
In my view, turning off notifications (or using something like iOS 15's "Focus" feature), though superficially in the same sphere of concerns, is actually an orthogonal concern. The purpose of Pony not just to limit distractions, but to create a space that naturally keeps out transactional (security codes, shipping alerts) or low-effort (tweets, funny pictures) messages. These messages are usually time-sensitive and often fun and enjoyable, but they also have a tendency to bury messages you may need some time to think about. So while I enjoy getting links and pictures from friends, I've always wanted a space that's on a more "human" timescale—that is, a space that isn't instant but more attuned to our non-instant cognitive processes. Turning off notifications kinda, sorta gets you there, but not really.