Ask HN: junior hedge fund programmer - what is fair compensation?
It's a multi-billion dollar hedge fund in NYC w/ very low headcount. I'd say the project workload is higher than average because of a small dev team, and its a fair balance of front/middle/back office work. Its a discretionary (non-quant) fund.
1) What range should I expect to be fair? (salary + bonus)
2) Is it unethical to negotiate directly with the employer (go around the recruiter)? I imagine the recruiter just wants to close a deal, and not really fight for the best offer.
3) If I shoot too high, can the offer get pulled before I'm told its out of their range? If I say "I'm expecting X" can they say "We're sorry, that's too much, we decided to go with applicant B" ?
4) I'm reading about negotiation (especially here on HN). Everything from "don't say the first number" to "say the first number (price anchoring)". I actually have a figure in my mind that I believe I'd be happy with. Its slightly higher than the top of the range I was quoted by the recruiter. Would it be better to just say "I expect X for this position" and be hardnose about it, or to say "I was expecting something between X and X+20%" and negotiate?
37 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 86.4 ms ] threadNo idea how much things have changed since he told me this (a couple years ago), but that's what I got.
But you're right, it is something I will consider when evaluating the package.
For a Jr at a hedge fund, you should be aiming for $70,000 minimum, then, provide enough value for a $40,000 bonus (hedge fund'esque).
You don't go Around your third-party recruiter, because he is representing you. Could cause problems (am I wrong in this? I've negotiated (upwards typically) salaries at financial / ecomm firms, the companies Expect part of the fee is not dealing with the headache of "back and forth" between a candidate). On the other hand, I've had candidates I don't represent ask advice on negotiations (when they have gone on their own to a firm).
Anyway, most of your comp will be in the form of bonus, but, you shouldn't be taking a horrendous (what, $40, $50k) base salary just because you were previously making such. The fact that you are in offer stage means they are Interested.
It also depends on the "side" of the business you are on (support (or Operations) vs revenue). If you are building tools for the traders, you are higher value.
Cheers!
That said, it also sounds like you're in a situation where it's incredibly difficult to negotiate. I'd say take whatever they give you and kick ass at your job. You'll build up your resume, and in a few months if you believe your underpaid, you'll have something to negotiate with. Moreover, with something substantial on your resume you won't have any trouble moving elsewhere.
If you're worried about your recruiter, I'd recommend calling TTS Staffing and asking for Morgan, he's the best that I've dealt with in New York.
You sure? Situations like that are ripe for recruiters lowballing the hires. Why? Because the recruiter can get many commissions from a steady client, but only gets one commission from the employee. As long as they can make it up on volume, there's a real incentive to be a slack negotiator.
Never shortchange yourself - ever. If you have a low current salary, state that you need a significant boost. If the potential employer knows how low yours is, you'll see just what they consider a significant boost then.
That increase will tell you a lot. Are they thinking you're not worth much because of the low salary and give you a small boost? Then they probably won't pay you well no matter what. If they do give you a bit better than you expected of a boost, that means they recognize your talent or indeed want you for the job - a much better outcome.
Consider what your minimum increase is and then when asked, put it on the table. Don't be greedy but be firm; financial firms look for weak negotiators or people that shortchange themselves. You're not worth as much to them if you won't stand up for your needs.
Right. Shortchange the company instead.
OP, considering your virtually nonexistent professional experience, I'd take the job regardless of the salary and focus on learning as much as I can. Ignore the money for a couple years.
Then bump up to a higher payscale, either at the same company or jumping ship to a different one.
I don't mean shortchange the company. I mean don't shortchange yourself.
@OP, If you accept less than you are worth people will continue to offer you exactly that. I don't mean be unreasonable; I mean don't accept the age-old argument "oh, but you'll get experience".
Even when you are starting out, stand up for what you are worth. You won't regret it.
My current job pays abysmally low, but it offered great experience when I didn't have any. And I'm getting more interesting opportunities now because of it.
So now I can afford to be a little less desperate.
I think the fact its in finance is what skews things. I'm very frugal, so I don't want to feel as if I made out like a bandit when in fact I really got something below market rate.
Doesn't mean I won't take something below market rate, but I'd like to have that information when I evaluate an offer.
Finance is a domain with a lot of money. So, if you have domain knowledge and can help the firm make a lot of money, you can make a lot of money too. But if you don't, don't expect a dime more than at another company. In fact, they may pay you less, in return for gaining the domain knowledge, which you can later turn into a lot of money.
Of course, I don't know anything about your particular situation; maybe the firm you're talking to has specific interest in you that will take them higher!
Also, like some others have mentioned, your year-end compensation ("bonus") is a big chunk of your take-home---but hard to anticipate ahead of time. Even within a team there can be huge variance (depending on your individual awesome) so the "mean" or whatever figure they're willing to give you doesn't really help.
I'm not trying to score a sweet deal here - just trying to understand the market value of someone in my shoes.
My lack of experience (defined in this thread as time I've been working) does not mean there isn't a situation that can't be considered lowball. I'm not trying to maximize my income - just want to have idea and data on the pay floor and ceilings.
Don't talk to the employer about rates during this process. But it's OK to dangle carrots, such as your special ability to solve x type of problem if you have anything like that, something that will make it more likely for the employer to tell the recruiter "I want this one hired."
Also start looking for other offers so that if you do end up wanting to say no to this one, that will be easier to do.
(1) A good way to dodge being the first one to give a salary number is to say that you will consider the total compensation package offered, of which the salary is just one portion.
(2) If you do get an offer and want to negotiate, but are scared that you will put them off - make sure they know from your response that you are very interested in the position and the offer, but based on your understanding of the job responsibilities and your skills were expecting something in the range of x.
This doesn't apply if you're special, but if you're a junior, you're not.