Sounds stupid. In Germany we have a case now. One nurse faked her vaccination pass, not just to be able to say she's vaccinated but also in terms not to do the testings anymore.
Her husband got infected and she still went to her workplace - always saying there is no need to be quarantined for vaccinated.
She then developed Symptoms by herself - in the meantime her colleagues got infected and some patients, of who 3 died.
That's hate, egoism and inhumane. That woman faces charges comparable to murder 1st degree. I hope she will get some more serious charges.
No mercy.
> in the meantime her colleagues got infected and some patients, of who 3 died
Where the patients vaccinated? Because if they were, are they supposed NOT to die?
> That's hate, egoism and inhumane
So can we force you to get all kind of shots because you risk killing people by spreading stuff like the flu in winter? (that does kill people too, whether you are aware of it or not). Are we also going to charge people who transmit STDs next? Be careful what you wish for
If you have some STD and don't take precautions like preservatives and after the sexual intercourse the other person is infected, too, you can be held accountable and face some serious charges for that. It depends on your "partner" whether this gets beknown and whether he/she do an official statement (I don't know how it's called in English. You go to police station and tell them you're harmed by another one. They start an investigation which ends with holding the causer liable most of the time.)
This apply most of the time to diseases like HIV/AIDS and the kinds of.. getting a bacterial infections with clostridium is considered not to be very harmful. Nevertheless, it's your freedom to sue or not to sue the other one. Most victims are women and feel ashamed by that. So no official prosecution is started because of that.
The same is held for infectious deseases like flu and hepatitis. We also have some mandatory vaccines like against measles (which can be used as a biological weapon).
In Germany there is a law which is like "every individual has the right not to be harmed in no matter what way." And further in the same sentence "the freedom of an individual ends there, where the the freedom of an other is touched"
This are the basic laws and stand on the second place after the very first law "every individual has the right to live and to unfold his personality as he/she thinks so"
So. Basically, I don't wish for - it's already law since the ending of the second world war.
And yes, you/me can be forced to do a vaccination in certain cases, where the health of all is touched. And we have that situation right now. So it will come. I'm happy about that - but, this is the pint:
I'm against mandatory vaccines by myself. Every one should take his own responsibility for the society he lives in, like the laws and institutions of the very self society are made to make the live secure & good for everyone in that society. Law & Order, I guess xD.
The incident happened was in a house for elder people. 29 got infected. Three of them died. So, basically, that corresponds to "the vaccine helps not to die".
Without vaccine, in worst case all of the elderly would have died. It's not just reckless of the woman, it's criminal.
Me, got 3x vaccined against covid and I also got the flu vaccine like 8 weeks ago. Not because I fear something.
I'm in the comfortable position to be able to say "if I die, everything finally comes to an end and I don't need to face the struggle any more"
But, I did that for my mom & dad (I'm 40, only kid. One of them wouldn't survive my leaving..).
I did that to be able to work (having a lot of daily contacts).
I did that for my company, so it won't be shutdown in case of - making possible to pay the fees and the monthly rent.
I did that for the whole economy. All bars, restaurants, theaters, shops .. I'm able to help by spending my money on them. It wouldn't be possible if the counts are way too high and everything is lockdowned, or if I get infected xD
And of course, for my self - I still have a very healthy body without being ill the last 10 years or so.. I can't calculate the risk for the possible severeness of an infection with COVID. I don't want to risk being aired by the machine (which breaks more tissue as the virus itself) or having half of the lungs not working for the rest of my life. No one can tell how high the risk is - just precautions.
I don't need to do the tests with 3x vaccines, but still do them almost daily. Just because of my colleagues and the company and more important:
Not to spread the virus unknowingly and harm other people around me. They also got illnesses I can't see, jobs that may be crucial for their life beings and other points unseen by me.
I see the vaccine as my duty to give back what society gave me.
There are some down votes on my very personal view & thinking. Sure, it's the right of everyone to up or down vote.
But the ones down voting without any discussions or comment are just as reckless and egoistic and one may say "radical" - not accepting any other opinions and not willing to behave like a social beings.
Please leave your Nick here, so I can down vote your comments in return. Thank you!
It will be like that.
She already did an disclosure because of the faked papers, but still trying to argument like it's not my fault they got infected.
Let's see if there are some contacts of the other co-workers/coworkers by them selves, who have been infected before the infections of the elderly started xD
Her problem is, every company should take notes of the results of testing of employees for the infection. Especially in that very sensitive area working with "elderly patients", if the companies don't take notes, they can be held responsible.
The police already said, the employer didn't show any misbehaving on that matter xD
Such a egoistic person. Should be sentenced for that.
This story makes no sense. Vaccinated people get infected and spread virus just the same as non vaccinated people, the only difference is the severity of the infection.
Yes and no. Virus loads among the vaccinated and unvaccinated are different. So is their ability to spread, as infection need some amount of viruses. So it's not "..just the same". Big difference.
But that's not the point of the story. The point of that story is what the woman did. Knowingly being a 1st grade contact with a confirmed case (living with), going to work with symptoms to a house of elder people, didn't want to test because she is vaccinated (bought) and risking the life of others. 3 died. All colleagues infected with mild to middle symptoms.
I personally use a mix of pass from tests and a vaccinated friend’s pass for my activities. I test whenever in doubt, to make sure i don’t contaminate others, which means many times a month, and many times a week when the epidemic is peaking. In my opinion, this is a much more responsible behavior than having a jab and assume i won’t contaminate anyone.
I would add that fake vaccination pass use will probably climb with the combination of omikron variant, forced vax for kids and the increase in testimonials from vaccine side effects. People start realizing this strategy isn’t going anywhere.
NOTE: before people jump on me, i’m not anti-vax. I’m glad my parents had the jab, it made perfect sense in their case.
I’ve always been told at school that whenever states start to discriminate by laws against a part of its population, breaking the law was actually the morally right thing to do. Blame it on french education.
unless people still don’t understand they’re not fighting against authoritarianism but a virus which simply does not care about people being “oppressed”
mandatory injection of substances in your body without one's consent is the textbook definition of authoritarianism. Not the first time it happened in History.
It's not really voluntary - you are excluded from lots of society by law that you previously didn't had access to if you don't do it (for instance you are no longer legally allowed to visit restaurants, museums etc).
At the very least it's highly coercive. (I personally am vaccinated, think everyone should get themselves vaccinated, and am against 'vaccination passports').
> So it is voluntary. People just dont like the consequences of their actions.
Voluntary is doing something by your own free will, which to me doesn't mean "there are legal consequences / you will be banned from your current way of living if you don't do it".
For instance, if you had to register as an organ donor otherwise you could never eat at a restaurant at any time in your life, I doubt we would call that registration 'completely voluntary'.
But I think this just comes down to a definition of what you count as voluntary, and if something can be truly voluntary if people are actually doing it because of coercion. It depends where you stop, if we fine people if they don't take a vaccine does that still count as voluntary, just because there are consequences to their actions? What if we put people in jail? Where is the line between something being voluntary and being coerced?
> These are required when visiting certain countries where you are expected to be vaccinated against certain diseases. Also for citizenship in most places (TB vaccine + scan of lungs, all other expected vaccines...)
To clarify I'm talking about domestic 'vaccine passports'. The word in the UK at least is used to describe the introduction of proving your identification and vaccination status every time you go into a restaurant or bar within the country etc as they have introduced in France, which also keeps a log of everywhere every citizen has visited.
If any country wants to block anyone from entering their country without a particular vaccination then that's fine and their decision.
You are saying that restricting someone's 'freedoms' make vaccine not voluntary.
Perhaps there is a bit of coercion, that being said, people are free to take it or not. If they do not they can't expect to be allowed to spread the disease and potentially kill other people.
When disease is eradicated they can be free to do whatever they like, until then they should be acting like responsible adults.
Your example of organ donor is unreasonable... a better example would be someone with active TB being allowed to go out and cough everywhere... That is also illegal... regardless if everyone else is vaccinated or not.
> To clarify I'm talking about domestic 'vaccine passports'. The word in the UK at least is used to describe the introduction of proving your identification and vaccination status every time you go into a restaurant or bar within the country etc as they have introduced in France, which also keeps a log of everywhere every citizen has visited.
That's just enforcing the law... Can't have a law that nobody checks.
Reasonable people can have different opinions on this.
Covid will never be eradicated, and I don’t personally think the price on passes (needing to carry and show your papers everywhere) is worth the prize.
“Carry your papers” and “papers please” was an authoritarian / police state trope a few years ago, so I think it’s something we have to be very careful introducing as these things can be hard to unwind after.
But again, a reasonable person could disagree, we all have to accept there is no absolute right or wrong here.
> . If they do not they can't expect to be allowed to spread the disease and potentially kill other people.
Wrong argument to use since vaccinated people spread the virus just as well. Get your facts right when you want to debate. Also, if you are vaccinated your risk of dying is virtually zero, so why would YOU care?
> So its merely adding a new vaccine to the already existing lists.
First, it's not a vaccine like the other ones, since the infection still spreads among vaccinated people. It does not sterilize the virus at all. It simply protects YOU, and only you, from the worst effects.
Second, why stop at vaccines then? Let's have passports for everything under the sun like China with their social score, and let's remove any kind of individual rights and submit to our dear leader(s) since they know what is best for everyone, even though this virus only kills people with at least 3-4 comorbidities. Let the ones most at risk get the shot, and the rest can decide for themselves. It's only a crisis because we are calling it one.
Gee... i guess unvaccinated people flooding hospitals, spreading virus at a much higher rate screaming muh freedom is a great situation.
Meanwhile i know of people with cancer that cant schedule treatment because of unvaxxed above. We're still under restrictions because the same unvaxed people couldnt be bothered to isolate or even wear masks, going so far as faking vaccinations... All while vulnerable elderly realtives live in fear even vaxxed since even regular flu can kill them... And I can't visit them.
I have no sympathy for you and your slippery slope is bullshit.
Also, I'd be wary... In the past with TB it got so bad people would be chased out of their homes/cities and their homes burned... Hopefully we never reach that again
In France 11 vaccines are mandatory by law for children, starting soon after birth.
The number of people who have a problem with that is minuscule and infinitely smaller than the number of people who have a problem with Covid vaccines, which are not mandatory. To me this highlights the high degree of irrationality and of misplaced "fight for freedom" we're seeing.
This is a dishonest comparison because 1) most of those other vaccines are much more effective to the point of being sterilising, flawless and/or lasting a lifetime and 2) they all have been tested to hell and back.
36 comments
[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 99.4 ms ] threadThat's hate, egoism and inhumane. That woman faces charges comparable to murder 1st degree. I hope she will get some more serious charges. No mercy.
Where the patients vaccinated? Because if they were, are they supposed NOT to die?
> That's hate, egoism and inhumane
So can we force you to get all kind of shots because you risk killing people by spreading stuff like the flu in winter? (that does kill people too, whether you are aware of it or not). Are we also going to charge people who transmit STDs next? Be careful what you wish for
isnt it already the case for knowingly spreading HIV?
If you have some STD and don't take precautions like preservatives and after the sexual intercourse the other person is infected, too, you can be held accountable and face some serious charges for that. It depends on your "partner" whether this gets beknown and whether he/she do an official statement (I don't know how it's called in English. You go to police station and tell them you're harmed by another one. They start an investigation which ends with holding the causer liable most of the time.) This apply most of the time to diseases like HIV/AIDS and the kinds of.. getting a bacterial infections with clostridium is considered not to be very harmful. Nevertheless, it's your freedom to sue or not to sue the other one. Most victims are women and feel ashamed by that. So no official prosecution is started because of that.
The same is held for infectious deseases like flu and hepatitis. We also have some mandatory vaccines like against measles (which can be used as a biological weapon).
In Germany there is a law which is like "every individual has the right not to be harmed in no matter what way." And further in the same sentence "the freedom of an individual ends there, where the the freedom of an other is touched"
This are the basic laws and stand on the second place after the very first law "every individual has the right to live and to unfold his personality as he/she thinks so"
So. Basically, I don't wish for - it's already law since the ending of the second world war.
And yes, you/me can be forced to do a vaccination in certain cases, where the health of all is touched. And we have that situation right now. So it will come. I'm happy about that - but, this is the pint: I'm against mandatory vaccines by myself. Every one should take his own responsibility for the society he lives in, like the laws and institutions of the very self society are made to make the live secure & good for everyone in that society. Law & Order, I guess xD.
The incident happened was in a house for elder people. 29 got infected. Three of them died. So, basically, that corresponds to "the vaccine helps not to die". Without vaccine, in worst case all of the elderly would have died. It's not just reckless of the woman, it's criminal.
Me, got 3x vaccined against covid and I also got the flu vaccine like 8 weeks ago. Not because I fear something. I'm in the comfortable position to be able to say "if I die, everything finally comes to an end and I don't need to face the struggle any more" But, I did that for my mom & dad (I'm 40, only kid. One of them wouldn't survive my leaving..).
I did that to be able to work (having a lot of daily contacts).
I did that for my company, so it won't be shutdown in case of - making possible to pay the fees and the monthly rent.
I did that for the whole economy. All bars, restaurants, theaters, shops .. I'm able to help by spending my money on them. It wouldn't be possible if the counts are way too high and everything is lockdowned, or if I get infected xD
And of course, for my self - I still have a very healthy body without being ill the last 10 years or so.. I can't calculate the risk for the possible severeness of an infection with COVID. I don't want to risk being aired by the machine (which breaks more tissue as the virus itself) or having half of the lungs not working for the rest of my life. No one can tell how high the risk is - just precautions.
I don't need to do the tests with 3x vaccines, but still do them almost daily. Just because of my colleagues and the company and more important:
Not to spread the virus unknowingly and harm other people around me. They also got illnesses I can't see, jobs that may be crucial for their life beings and other points unseen by me.
I see the vaccine as my duty to give back what society gave me.
But of cou...
There are some down votes on my very personal view & thinking. Sure, it's the right of everyone to up or down vote.
But the ones down voting without any discussions or comment are just as reckless and egoistic and one may say "radical" - not accepting any other opinions and not willing to behave like a social beings.
Please leave your Nick here, so I can down vote your comments in return. Thank you!
Let's see if there are some contacts of the other co-workers/coworkers by them selves, who have been infected before the infections of the elderly started xD
Her problem is, every company should take notes of the results of testing of employees for the infection. Especially in that very sensitive area working with "elderly patients", if the companies don't take notes, they can be held responsible.
The police already said, the employer didn't show any misbehaving on that matter xD
Such a egoistic person. Should be sentenced for that.
But that's not the point of the story. The point of that story is what the woman did. Knowingly being a 1st grade contact with a confirmed case (living with), going to work with symptoms to a house of elder people, didn't want to test because she is vaccinated (bought) and risking the life of others. 3 died. All colleagues infected with mild to middle symptoms.
That's the point.
Peace
I would add that fake vaccination pass use will probably climb with the combination of omikron variant, forced vax for kids and the increase in testimonials from vaccine side effects. People start realizing this strategy isn’t going anywhere.
NOTE: before people jump on me, i’m not anti-vax. I’m glad my parents had the jab, it made perfect sense in their case.
mandatory injection of substances in your body without one's consent is the textbook definition of authoritarianism. Not the first time it happened in History.
At the very least it's highly coercive. (I personally am vaccinated, think everyone should get themselves vaccinated, and am against 'vaccination passports').
People just dont like the consequences of their actions.
> am against 'vaccination passports'
These are required when visiting certain countries where you are expected to be vaccinated against certain diseases.
Also for citizenship in most places (TB vaccine + scan of lungs, all other expected vaccines...)
So its merely adding a new vaccine to the already existing lists.
Voluntary is doing something by your own free will, which to me doesn't mean "there are legal consequences / you will be banned from your current way of living if you don't do it".
For instance, if you had to register as an organ donor otherwise you could never eat at a restaurant at any time in your life, I doubt we would call that registration 'completely voluntary'.
But I think this just comes down to a definition of what you count as voluntary, and if something can be truly voluntary if people are actually doing it because of coercion. It depends where you stop, if we fine people if they don't take a vaccine does that still count as voluntary, just because there are consequences to their actions? What if we put people in jail? Where is the line between something being voluntary and being coerced?
> These are required when visiting certain countries where you are expected to be vaccinated against certain diseases. Also for citizenship in most places (TB vaccine + scan of lungs, all other expected vaccines...)
To clarify I'm talking about domestic 'vaccine passports'. The word in the UK at least is used to describe the introduction of proving your identification and vaccination status every time you go into a restaurant or bar within the country etc as they have introduced in France, which also keeps a log of everywhere every citizen has visited.
If any country wants to block anyone from entering their country without a particular vaccination then that's fine and their decision.
You are saying that restricting someone's 'freedoms' make vaccine not voluntary.
Perhaps there is a bit of coercion, that being said, people are free to take it or not. If they do not they can't expect to be allowed to spread the disease and potentially kill other people.
When disease is eradicated they can be free to do whatever they like, until then they should be acting like responsible adults.
Your example of organ donor is unreasonable... a better example would be someone with active TB being allowed to go out and cough everywhere... That is also illegal... regardless if everyone else is vaccinated or not.
> To clarify I'm talking about domestic 'vaccine passports'. The word in the UK at least is used to describe the introduction of proving your identification and vaccination status every time you go into a restaurant or bar within the country etc as they have introduced in France, which also keeps a log of everywhere every citizen has visited.
That's just enforcing the law... Can't have a law that nobody checks.
Covid will never be eradicated, and I don’t personally think the price on passes (needing to carry and show your papers everywhere) is worth the prize.
“Carry your papers” and “papers please” was an authoritarian / police state trope a few years ago, so I think it’s something we have to be very careful introducing as these things can be hard to unwind after.
But again, a reasonable person could disagree, we all have to accept there is no absolute right or wrong here.
Wrong argument to use since vaccinated people spread the virus just as well. Get your facts right when you want to debate. Also, if you are vaccinated your risk of dying is virtually zero, so why would YOU care?
We vaccinated care about those who can’t get vaccinated as well. It’s telling that many of the unvaccinated ask this question; it’s basic empathy.
First, it's not a vaccine like the other ones, since the infection still spreads among vaccinated people. It does not sterilize the virus at all. It simply protects YOU, and only you, from the worst effects.
Second, why stop at vaccines then? Let's have passports for everything under the sun like China with their social score, and let's remove any kind of individual rights and submit to our dear leader(s) since they know what is best for everyone, even though this virus only kills people with at least 3-4 comorbidities. Let the ones most at risk get the shot, and the rest can decide for themselves. It's only a crisis because we are calling it one.
Gee... i guess unvaccinated people flooding hospitals, spreading virus at a much higher rate screaming muh freedom is a great situation.
Meanwhile i know of people with cancer that cant schedule treatment because of unvaxxed above. We're still under restrictions because the same unvaxed people couldnt be bothered to isolate or even wear masks, going so far as faking vaccinations... All while vulnerable elderly realtives live in fear even vaxxed since even regular flu can kill them... And I can't visit them.
I have no sympathy for you and your slippery slope is bullshit.
Also, I'd be wary... In the past with TB it got so bad people would be chased out of their homes/cities and their homes burned... Hopefully we never reach that again
The number of people who have a problem with that is minuscule and infinitely smaller than the number of people who have a problem with Covid vaccines, which are not mandatory. To me this highlights the high degree of irrationality and of misplaced "fight for freedom" we're seeing.