What about potential (carbon) import taxes? If you reuse the frame and other parts in the car it saves you quite some money, plus there might be recycling subsidies. Also a battery only lasts 8 years while other parts of the car could easily last 30 years.
There are plenty of EVs on the road with batteries at 8 years old, some of which have seen minimal range degradation, like most Fiat 500e owners.
For those cars that do suffer from range degradation (eg: 2011 Nissan Leafs), battery swapping has become common, and at a reasonable $3500 and up price point: https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/
This is clearly about BEVs, they are much harder for a local mechanic to “overhaul” when the key component, the battery, reaches the end of its life.
I think its great that they are thinking ahead like this, it’s also good for the communities where Toyota have factories in the UK. There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE, bringing them back to the factories for “re-manufacturing” helps to ensure jobs in communities that have been badly hurt by the automotive industry before.
I suspect this is where the whole industry is going to go, the smaller local mechanics are sadly going to disappear but if we see the remanufacturing happening in the countries of use that’s at least a plus.
The other thing this does though is further entrench the manufactures in the second hand market and tie yet more customers to their financing plans.
EDIT:
Wanted to add, that this also helps the manufacture keep control of the value in the battery’s which is probably the largest single const in a BEV. Remanufacturing the battery’s themselves will be massively important.
It will be interesting to see how this effects British Car Auctions (the company) who have a near monopoly on the second hand market.
As much as that sounds like a nice idea ICE and BEV are so fundamentally different I think it’s incredibly unlikely.
To properly take advantage of BEVs the drive chain is very different resulting in an incompatible mechanical structure. Also battery’s are very heavy (BEVs are significantly heavier than their ICE equivalents) which is why the battery’s are placed as low as possible. Retrofitting battery’s into ICE to make a BEV would result in a very bad and potentially dangerous weight distribution.
That’s not to say there aren’t components from an ICE that can’t be reused if they haven’t reached the end of their useful life (much of the interior for example). However there is already a good scrap market for these and so I think it’s unlikely manufactures will do it themselves.
There are plenty of recent TV programmes that show turning classic ICE cars into a BEV, typical range seems to be about 150 miles which would be fine for a lot of people. I'm just thinking that this could be done in a more systematic way instead of custom builds.
The alternative is to completely replace every current car with a new BEV, I don't think this can be done quickly enough or at low enough cost for most people.
Quite right, and there is definitely going to be a cottage industry of ICE to BEV conversions but I don’t see it as something that manufactures will want to get involved with due to the compromises needed.
You can already buy a battery Ford 351 crate motor and it's a drop in replacement for an ICE, you gotta do the batteries and we need to replace the heater with something electric, little baby heat pump.
Working on doing one now on a truck out at the family farm. I think this is going to be more common as we move away from ICE.
Generally in the UK cars get scrapped because they failed their MOT. Everything tested during an MOT (except emissions, which I've never seen fail) is also present on electric cars. It's basically checking brakes, suspension, lights and body rust.
Maybe there'll be less mechanics, but I doubt they'll disappear because they can't do engine work. Engines are super reliable these days - it's the stuff around them which develops problems.
While I don’t disagree it’s also worth noting that for example the brakes on BEVs last significantly longer due to regenerative braking, up to 200k miles I believe. This is much longer than the “three year cycles” that the article is taking about. There is also no more oil changes or exhausts on a BEV.
So yes, there will be local mechanics for things such as bodywork and tires, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see only 10-20% of the number of them in 20 years time.
Is the label important? Thanks to CAN, LIN, and automotive ethernet the competent mechanics now have things like a picoscope which affords them the ability to diagnose signal issues.
Brake pads and discs last longer yes. But brake calipers can seize if left unmaintained, especially in northern states that use salt on the road (and this may be worsened if they are used less).
Brake fluid is hygroscopic and should be replaced every 2-3 years regardless of use, otherwise corrosion can occur in the brake lines. There are plenty of hydraulic and mechanical items on BEVs to keep small shops busy.
Around here a problem with discs and brake pads as well and forb electrical vehicles in particular.
Wear keeps rust at bay but when they don't get enough wear to remove rust it can make the discs uneven and at that point it can easily spiral out of control.
I mean, I've had this happen a few times (I drive a manual, looking ahead and coasting/timing to avoid full stops means I'm light on the brakes.)
But every time, it's exhibited as a 'pulsing' feel on the brakes that is alarming before it is dangerous. I suppose to the untrained it could be confused for ABS kicking in but to me it's a very distinct feeling.
The current brakes and fluids are built on the assumption they'll be heavily used and wear out. We're already seeing changes in response to the new situation, e.g. using lighter, less corrosion prone metals so I'd expect to see continual improvements in this over time.
Brake fluid is one of the last somewhat frequent maintenance items. It looks like newer Tesla's have all electric breaks so technically there's very little reason you would need a mechanic since replacing the air filter is easy (at least compared to brake fluid changes).
I drive a 12 year old car which has been brilliant mechanically but on the past two MOTs it has failed the emissions test but passed the second time with the aid of a fuel additive. My understanding is that this is now the defualt procedure with local garages.
I'm under the impression that many emissions testing programs (at least in the US) have discarded their more sophisticated testing mechanisms and now just rely on the ECU saying everything is okay. Since most cars on the road are new enough to have that ability. Oregon definitely ditched the dynos, and while they use a sniffer for really old cars, I wouldn't be surprised if they ditch that before much longer.
They're getting a lot more strict on ECU testing, too. Used to be you just needed to have no check emissions codes being thrown. Now they're more thorough, for most ECUs they can check to also verify no modifications to the emissions settings (can't just tell the computer it has no cat so it doesn't throw codes).
In my state they will just do engine light & ECU test for new cars. On older cars (>=10 years) when they do the IM240 test on a dynamo but if you look at the emissions limits they are all 100x what a normal car produces. Here's the GPM values (reading/limit) from my last test on a 2011 Honda Pilot:
Hydrocarbons 0.023/1.2 (1:50)
CO 0.3/15 (1:50)
CO2 502/NA (guess this one has no limit?)
NOx 0.081/2 (1:25)
Maybe some states apply newer, stricter limits to older cars retroactively but in my experience as long as a car is operating normally it is impossible to fail emissions. I wouldn't be surprised if the ECU threw a code before the dynamo test caught something. IMO the most practical check they actually do is the presence of a functioning gas cap.
> IMO the most practical check they actually do is the presence of a functioning gas cap.
Even that throws a code these days. 14y.o. BMW has a pump that pressurizes the fuel system to check for leaks and it’s usually the pump that breaks and throws a code.
17y.o. Corolla threw a fuel system code but it was the gas cap.
Only thing is that this pressurization check system only runs when the weather is warm enough, so resetting a code usually lets you pass e-testing as “Not Ready” because months can go by. Maybe there’s differences in summer/winter e-testing criteria.
I don't know if it happens this way any more, but my last Subaru would do the pressurization test about 30 minutes after the car was turned off. Kinda weirded me out the first time I went into the garage and heard what sounded like something in the rear of the car inflating. Turns out that is exactly what it was doing.
Mine failed an emissions test (11yr old diesel mondeo with 170000 on the clock), but passed when I took it for a thrash round the M25 and a load of additive in the fuel tank.
The next year emissions weren't an issue, mainly because the only journey it did was a 250 mile run up the A1/A66/A6 and back again on a weekly basis.
> "I think we’re very familiar with the usual two- to three-year cycles that are extremely popular in the UK, [...] Toyota will take vehicles back to the factory after their first use cycle (ie a typical lease contract) and refurbish them
This article isn't about "remanufacturing" cars at end-of-life - it's about three-year-old cars.
It's specifically talking about lease cars too - car manufacturers actually already have agreements with lease companies to take back cars after 3 years, which is a key reason car manufacturers have 'approved used' car sales. This arrangement is particularly common with company cars.
Typically, what happens post-lease is that the inspection will help determine whether the vehicle is of the correct 'quality' to be Certified Pre-Owned (i.e. sufficient quality or fixing whatever's wrong and selling as CPO is worth doing) and that's kinda the first decision gate.
After that, I would assume that the dealer getting the lease back has some pull as to whether they keep it, but that might be contingent on a few factors like what your agreement with the leasing company is and what your current floorplan is like. (Many dealers in the US don't own most of the inventory on their lots, so any car you keep on your lot eats into that line of credit.)
Oh, also the agreements between the financing companies and the auctions themselves. In some cases the agreements are extremely tight, and there are only small windows where someone doesn't already have the 'rights' to sell a vehicle. (That was a fun project.)
These large corporate lease agreements aren't done through the dealer network in the UK - they are done through a lease company which liaises directly with the car manufacturers.
I'm from the UK and it may be different in other places - but I have a friend who works for a large automaker in their second hand ex-lease team who explained this to me, so it absolutely exists here at least!
That may be the case for cars from dealer/manufacturer lease/hire-purchase schemes, but for the big corporate leasing companies (e.g. Arval, Leaseplan, et al), the cars usually get picked up at the end of the lease and dropped off at the nearest BCA facility and auctioned off ASAP.
(Which is amusingly the cheapest way to buy your car at the end of lease... just ask the pick up driver where he's taking it...)
This sounds like the US concept of a Certified Pre-Owned car (at least that's Ford's term for it).
The car is used, often just off-lease, but it's inspected by the dealership and minor repairs are done so it can be resold with the original warranty essentially reset as if it were new.
We have that here in the UK, the thing that’s different with this plan it to take the cars back to a factory (potentially alongside new cars being built) to be worked on.
It is much more like how Apple, for example, sell refurbished devices that have been put back down a production line for remanufacturing.
I think the intention is for the remanufactured cars to be almost indistinguishable from a brand new car (as an Apple refurbished device is).
I would wager very little beyond a detail cleaning is done to a "Certified Pre-Owned" car. Maybe they give it a mechanical once-over and a quick computer diagnostic scan to be sure it doesn't have any obvious problems.
Make it look as new as you can, sell it at a premium as a "certifed" car, with maybe a 2-year warranty. Profit.
Even a 5 year old car is very unlikely to have any major mechanical issues unless it has been abused.
I bought a certified pre-owned Mazda CX-5 and it had new brakes, all fluids flushed, new battery, new serpentine bet, new tires, and many other refreshed replacements and cleanings. It was really only $1000 more than like used CX-5 and came with a new manufacturer warranty. Was worth it in every way.
My certified pre-owned GMC Acadia has a 5 year GM bumper-to-bumper warranty on top of the original factory warranty. I had to pay for it, but the dealer fudged the financing rate to almost 0% to completely cancel it out over the term of the loan, so the loan "interest" is basically paying GM for the warranty rather than the bank.
> cars at end-of-life - it's about three-year-old cars.
That sounds so ridiculous to anyone living in the UK. The second hand market here dwarfs all other routes to obtaining your own vehicle. I've never bought a car less than 10 years old.
Looks like new cars account for around 25% of all car sales in the UK[1].
It would seem that of new car sales, 93% are leased[2]
> The percentage of private new car sales financed by FLA members in the twelve months to October 2021 was 93.0%, a similar level to the same period in 2020.
It's completely separate things. They think they've found a way to market 2-3 year old cars as new. It's a good idea, most cars lose a third to half of their value in the first two years. Anything they can eat out of that by changing the seat leather is pure profit
Does the UK not already have the "Certified pre-owned" programs that car dealers in the USA have had for decades? You buy a certified pre-owned Ford, GMC, Toyota, etc, and it's a used car that has been inspected and refurbished, coming with a warranty. That's what this sounds like, just with a third round tacked on.
Would be interesting how this compares to leasing a car as many do. Mindful there are many who already buy and sell back to dealers within 3 years and then buy new again. How well Toyota will be able to compete with that and the second-hand market will be the sink or swim for this initiative.
In the US many states have are no emissions testing so not passing a test, worst case, means selling it a state over which is only a small loss of value. How many cars in the UK are on the road with near 300,000 miles on them?
> There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE
I haven't seen this talk - I think most cars get scrapped when the chassis rots, or the suspension goes, or the tech’s obsolete - not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go. So BEV should be no different?
Perhaps it is because many ICE car components degrade with approximately similar pace. If it were just the suspension that would give up, it would be worthwhile to repair if the remainder had many km left in them. But if you know that it is just a matter of time until another expensive repair, then you throw in the towel at the first one, perhaps.
It’s not an ICE issue. Emissions controls drove reliability.
No such thing drives similar changes for other components. I drove a 2003 Honda Pilot 265k miles and get rid of it in 2019. It needed shocks, brakes and would have needed the exhaust system replaced soon due to rust. Just wasn’t worth the money.
I sold it to a guy I know for $2000, he drove it until last year, removed the engine and transmission, and sold it.
> ... not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go.
The engine can be the last thing to go, if you are good about checking and changing your oil.
If you let the oil run low, or let it sludge up, or don't promptly detect a cooling system leak [1], that will damage the bearings, and then it is only a matter of time before it dies.
[1] Some engines can have the head gasket start to leak, which lets coolant into the combustion chamber (which is bad). Worse are the engine designs that integrate the water pump into the engine block. If the water pump leaks (which they often do, it drips coolant directly into the oil, which is super bad.
An external water pump, in contrast, will just leak on the outside of the engine onto the ground. In either case, the coolant will run low, and eventually the engine will overheat. However, in the external pump case, you can just fix the leaky pump, and assuming you didn't try to run it overheated, you're fine.
But with an internal water pump, by the time the coolant has run low, you've severely degraded the oil too, and likely damaged the bearings. In addition, replacing the internal pump usually means dropping the entire engine out of the vehicle, which is far more costly.
My car has 160k km since 2005. The problems are everywhere else except the engine
First - it is rusting a lot. Then the car door doesn't close properly when it is colder than -15 or -20. Then the car has decided that the esp is faulty 2 times on longer rides in cold weather and that the max speed should be 20kmh (luckily a restart of the car fixed that)
This is it - a car's structure just rots away at a certain point if it's being used. It's not a mechanical thing you can refurbish or replace - the car as a whole just starts breaking apart.
Something that is extremely anecdotal experience for me, especially given I have never owned a car, is that things like "check your oil" are weirdly a feature mainly of american media. To the extent that its sort of led me to believe its something that isn't really necessary, like taking vitamins when your doctor hasn't told you you have a deficiency. I'm only really realising this assumption of mine now, so is this even remotely true?
I don't think ive ever heard about people talking about changing their oil here in europe in actual day-to-day life, but I have heard much more about antifreeze or windscreen wiper fluid or even water/coolant.
I looked up the oil change schedule for my car once. Same car and specs available in both the US and the UK (minor compliance issues like colour of indicators beside.) In the UK the manufacturer recommends changing every 20,000 miles or two years, in the US every 5,000 miles or six months. Same car!
I have never changed my oil in my car, despite having it over a year, and won't look to do it for another year yet. I think that would give most Americans a heart attack.
They've got an entire industry over there changing oil 4x more frequently than actually required.
I presume that the UK schedule specifies synthetic oil, that does let the oil last a little bit longer. But not that massive difference.
One of the reasons people give for buying German luxury cars is because they only need the oil changed once a year vs the 3-4x a year for American or Japanese or Volkswagen cars.
> One of the reasons people give for buying German luxury cars is because they only need the oil changed once a year vs the 3-4x a year for American or Japanese or Volkswagen cars.
No clue about American & Japanese cars, but for VW (and Opel) it's definitely just once per year (in Switzerland).
> need the oil changed once a year vs the 3-4x a year for American or Japanese or Volkswagen cars
We bought a VW Polo, kept it for ten years, then changed it for a VW Sharan, and recently added a VW Up. Total miles driven must be around 200k.
Based on a sekrit strategy - called reading then following the service manual - can confirm that (at least our) Volkswagens do not need their oil changing "3-4x a year"!
Are you in North America? The OP said that North America and Europe had very different oil change schedules. I haven't owned a Volkswagen for 30 years, so I guess it isn't surprising if it has changed.
Nope, American/Canadian manuals for VW cars tend to specify 16000 km or 10000 miles. I have experience with mk4 and mk5 VWs (diesel and gas) and they all had similar or the same oil change interval.
(assuming you're not doing significantly more than 10,000 miles per year) "For the first three years of ownership, your car will require an annual service inspection and oil service."
This seems to be the recommendation for US/Canada too...
I have a Japanese car (Mitsubishi), made in Japan and imported to Poland, sold with a manual in Polish. The manual says to change oil every year or 20kkm, whichever comes first.
An oil change is cheap. It’s also far better to preventatively change the oil, that way the engine is running with optimum lubrication most of the time. If you wait to change the oil when it’s black sludge, it’s likely damage will slowly build up from allowing the engine to run with poor oil.
Maybe the oil sold in Europe is more uniformly higher grade?
If I go to the local auto parts store here, I can spend ~$1.00/qt for oil or more than $10.00/qt for oil. Guess which oil most people will buy?
Also I don't really have any confidence that the dealers are using factory specified oil. I think they probably use the cheapest bulk oil they can buy. That's why I change my own oil, that way I know what is in the engine.
A counterpoint to this is that my car is manufactured in a single plant in Europe. It ships with engine oil in it (because it's driven on and off the transport ship). So I presume one sold in the UK and the US have the same oil in, yet Land Rover will tell you to change that exact same oil in the exact same engine after 20k miles in the UK and 5k miles in the US.
Fuel and oil quality is a lot more variable in the US, so are the environmental conditions, so you have to set the guidelines according to the minimum likely to be encountered.
Amazing. Not only do the dealers I've used not use bulk oil (unlike most 3rd party shops) but I get the leftover (new) oil in the original metal can they used. It is definitely the factory specified oil. The specific car is part of the paint scheme directly on the can.
Seems to me reading the thread that the difference is because US dealers use crappy oil so they specify more oil changes? Or maybe it's just greed.
Its hard to give a good recommendation as oil degrades at different rates depending on use age and weather. Lots of short and aggressive trips in the city will wear it out differently to some smooth motorway driving, mileage being equal.
Fuel and oil quality is a lot more variable in the US as it’s set at the state level, plus it’s just generally worse, so are the environmental conditions, so you have to set the guidelines according to the minimum / worst case likely to be encountered.
I used to help develop Diesel Engines before I moved into Software Engineering.
If they followed anything like what we did, they would just run load cycles on the engine in a test cell to simulate approximately however many miles of ‘normal’ use they want to validate the engine up to. During the testing the engine would be maintained, fueled, and oiled according to the maintenance schedule and customer guidelines the engine will be sold with.
After the testing, the engine would be completely broken down and analyzed. If there weren’t any signs of abnormal wear then the engine would be considered validated __under those conditions__.
The problem is when real-world use deviates from the testing conditions. Which is pretty much always. Then the manufacturer guidelines no longer apply.
If you run your engine harder than the test cycle load factor, you will need to replace the engine oil more regularly. If your fuel quality is crap, i.e. has any ethanol in it, you will need to replace your oil more regularly as fuel eventually gets into the oil, and ethanol results in high water content in fuels, and hence oil, which will break down seals as well as reduce overall lubrication.
If your engine breaks down due to poor oil quality from lack of regular inspection and replacement, then as a manufacturer I’d be very resistant to paying out on any warranty claim. Even if you followed the “guidelines” for oil
changes, you still have a duty to inspect the oil regularly, both as a responsible driver and under the car manual guidelines. Using bad oil and / or fuel is very easy to test for.
Long story short, the oil change intervals guidelines are just that, guidelines, and real-world use dictates the maintenance schedule. Frequent oil changes, before the oil breaks down / becomes crap, is just a quick, cheap way to prolong the life of your engine or any mechanical device with bearings or sliding surfaces for that matter.
> Even if you followed the “guidelines” for oil changes, you still have a duty to inspect the oil regularly, both as a responsible driver and under the car manual guidelines.
No this isn’t true. I check my oil as regularly as the manual tells me to, which is every two years. That’s literally the published inspection schedule in the UK for this car. If that isn’t regular enough and the engine wears that’s a warranty issue covered by the manufacturer.
No consumer law would uphold that. Your 80 year old granny have to be able to see something is wrong with the oil by looking at the dip. Demanding anything else is requiring someone educated look at it which won't hold in any court in the EU.
>If your fuel quality is crap, i.e. has any ethanol in it, you will need to replace your oil more regularly
That is real-world use in most of Europe and is included in the higher mileage between oil changes compared to the US discussed here. I don't even think most Europeans inside the EU have access to ethanol free petrol? At least around here (Denmark) it would be illegal. If a car breaks down because of ethanol in the petrol it is of course covered by the manufacturer. Otherwise they might as well state "warranty 5 years but not if petrol has been added at any point".
The manufacturer specified intervals are just fine and you'd need to be an extreme outlier to have any problems with your oil following them. Maybe if you have a caravan attached at all times or drive off-road or racing or all of the above at the same time. Otherwise consumer law would mandate the manufacturer pay for any damages caused, as it damn well should. It is also the manufacturer that would have to prove the fault is yours. Not possible if the car have been serviced even if done by a third-party shop. The oil would have to be visible damaged even if looked at by a granny (they cannot demand you understand oil better than "it looks like oil and is inside the specified mileage").
Newer cars will usually tell you. Iirc, it averages around 8-11k miles or 4-5 months for my Honda.
It’s a weird topic that people get religious about. I will say that in the 90s when I changed it myself, the viscosity of the oil was very different if you went longer between changes.
Is this possibly related to E10? E10 is the norm in the US but, as I understand it, E5 is more common in Europe. I don't know the chemistry but I do know that there are concerns about ethanol adversely affecting the life of engine seals, moreso in older vehicles not designed for it, but there's at least a fringe of people who insist it's an issue for modern engines as well.
I also know that there are some appreciable differences between EU and US standards for diesel (higher cetane number in Europe) which adversely impacts the performance of small diesel engines in the US, but I don't know if there are any similar issues with gasoline.
I'd also be curious about the manufacturer's specified oil. It is surprisingly common for new vehicles in the US to still specify conventional or blended oil, where 5k miles is a more common change interval. I've seen as high as 15k mile change interval specified in the manual for a US vehicle but the manual also specified full synthetic only (this was a turbocharged engine which tends to adversely impact life, I wonder if a similar naturally aspirated may have listed 20k).
In any case the "change oil every 3k miles" guideline is long gone in the US, with 5k-14k being more common, but nonetheless 3k was common for long enough that it seems to be thoroughly instilled into the minds of many members of the baby boomer generation. I think this has given a certain license to the chain lube shops, long a source of suspect business practices, to continue to use 3k miles for their window stickers. That said I've seen even Jiffy Lube put in a window sticker for 7k miles, for a blended oil. There's a story (I don't know if it's true) that the 3k mile recommendation stuck around for so long only because the domestic automakers were uninterested in going to the expense of longer testing, and that situation changed due to both media involvement (Consumer Reports for example took this on as a big issue in the '90s) and competition from the Japanese automakers that had invested more money into research.
5k actually seems unusually low for a new production vehicle and I would tend to think that must have been specified for conventional or at least blended. Outside of some older engines with detergent-related concerns pretty much the only thing keeping conventional oil on the market is price and more and more vehicles are specifying synthetic only.
Finally, temperatures across the UK are much more moderate than across the US. While synthetic oils have less issues this way, oil behavior in terms of actual viscosity and lubricity tends to vary appreciably by temperature, and worst of all mostly when it matters most right after startup. This has an adverse impact on both oil and engine life. It's become less common for US vehicles to specify different oil grades for different seasons/temperature ranges (although some still do), but US maintenance guidelines are still going to be developed for a pretty wide temperature range that notably includes ambient temperatures in the 80-100F/26-37C range that significantly thin oil and are uncommon in the UK. A similar problem exists at the low end, in parts of the US cold start temperatures of 20F/-7C are routine and most vehicle manuals no longer call for block heat until you get down to nearly 0F. Oil can take a long time to "limber" starting from these low temperatures and that's hard on engine life and puts a lot of metal shavings in the oil. Manufacturers kind of have to set their maintenance recommendations at "lowest common denominator" since practical experience with seasonal/climate-based oil recommendations have shown that vehicle owners and maintenance shops are both extremely bad at following them.
I would expect the schedule for the first $X months/$Y km to differ from subsequent periods. Manufacturing tolerances are incredible these days but there is still going to be a period of high wear leading to less and less new particulate in the fluids. At some early point, months if not weeks or days after the mechanical bits all have experienced a range of conditions, a fluids change would be beneficial. Most of the wear having taken place, it will take much more time to reach the same level of contamination after the first fluids change.
Does your owner’s manual recommend abiding by certain speed/rpm limits during a break-in period? I’m pretty sure my (Canadian) old car/old truck do.
If your car is newish (under 8 years and under 100K miles), you can pretty safely ignore any routine oil checking and just change it every year or ~12K miles. At some oil change, the mechanic will tell you [or you will see] that you have an oil leak or consumption issue and should then start checking it more often. A newer car will use way under a half-quart of oil in 10K miles, which can be ignored entirely.
I change the oil on our CR-V every year (about 5-6K miles) and because it’s 17 years and 225K miles old it uses some oil, which I top up twice between annual changes.
The amount of oil changing done in the US is indeed excessive and driven by promoting the practice to consumers who, in general, couldn’t find their oil filter nor explain the function of oil and oil filtration, and can only judge based on what everyone is doing and whether they can afford it. The little reminder stickers to bring your car back in 3K (yes!) miles are a critical business supply for an oil change franchise.
In the 1980s, with conventional motor oil, 3k mile changes made sense. It was cheap insurance. With engines made today and synthetic oil, 10k mile intervals are not unusual. The quick-lube places will still put 3k miles on their reminder sticker, because it's more business for them.
Also be sure they are actually using the correct synthetic oil for your car, and not conventional 10w40 that would be appropriate for a 1978 Chevy.
The advent of closed-loop fuel control has helped oil service life as well, but I think the “it’s cheap insurance” psychology is a message that makes sense to primitive human brains well beyond the underlying engineering data, leading us to over-service expensive things.
> ... you can pretty safely ignore any routine oil checking and just change it every year...
No, no, no, no, no.
Stretch the oil change intervals a little if you have to, but you need to check the oil on a regular basis.
The oil level and quality are critical to the life of the engine. By the time the oil pressure warning light comes on, you may already have irreparable damage to the main bearings.
In the 1970s and before getting 100,000 miles on a car was a big deal, you would call all your friends for that, put oil in the engine, drive off in a cloud of blue smoke and 10 minutes latter having crossed that mark return and put more oil in. In the 1980s cars got a lot more reliable and so most don't remember how bad they used to be. Few cars, even old worn out beaters need their oil checked between changes, but it used to be a big deal and not doing it's would destroy your engine fast since it would run out.
So mostly it is pandering to old people, but it is still an expression
When I was seventeen my dad said I could have the old family station wagon to drive if I would replace the water pump on it. He got me a water pump from a junk yard and the appropriate Chiltons manual for a 1973 Chevy Impala and it took me about four days (real mechanic time would probably be 4 hours) and then my dad sold me the car for $1.
Some things about it stand out in memory. Engines were so big and un-compacted back then it was relatively easy to fit your hands and tools where ever they needed to go and pieces of the engine basically looked like what you’d expect them to be.
The other thing I found out later was that my father was desperate to sell me the car, because it allowed him to get me off his insurance. I was a 17 year old boy, with one fender bender already under my belt and my parents had just bought a new Mercedes sedan. For insurance purposes, as a licensed driver living with them, without my own car the insurance company considered me a driver of the new car and the insurance was outrageous. After my dad sold me the car, I was off their main policy and on a separate one. Very tricky dad.
With the exception of a crappy Dodge which lost a timing chain which took out a bunch of the powertrain (under warranty--but it was never the same again), it's mostly fair to say that every car I've owned was retired due to rust.
> Toyota is famous for extreme durability in functional parts like engine or electronics. But also infamous, how the chassis rots away very fast.
I wouldn't go that far. Toyota pickup chassis built by Dana (the rear end guys) were known to rust some time ago. Other than that, I do not know of any Toyotas that rusted away more than the average car would given any environmental conditions.
In my (Australian) experience, the three main reasons cars get scrapped are engine failures, transmission problems, and kangaroos.
Rust is much less of a problem for anything manufactured this century. Suspension is pretty cheap to fix, it cost me <$2000 to get my entire front suspension replaced a while back.
> Rust is much less of a problem for anything manufactured this century. Suspension is pretty cheap to fix, it cost me <$2000 to get my entire front suspension replaced a while back.
I'm guessing you don't have below freezing temperatures, and roads sprinkled with salt every winter? That's the real suspension and car chassis killer.
I've also heard that it's similar near seas (or oceans), where non negligible amounts of salt from the sea are present as aerosol in the air.
Its so easy to kill an engine by just skipping oil changes. What's more, as engines become evermore complex, the amount of failure condition that can total the car grow too.
In the future everyone will be a battery mechanic. Just as dads in the 60’s and 70’s had a garage full of tools. But now they will have soldering stations and ammeters
You have it right but I do not think the battery is the reason. The battery, while heavy, is mechanically simple.
Suspension bushings, springs, and shocks have a long life but, by the time the battery needs changing, are probably worn out. The wheels have been bashed enough to at least need straightening. The driver's seat padding and upholstery is probably shot. If it has a steel body it has dings and the corrosion protection and paint will need at least a touch up. The windshield is pitted.
This means it's not just a job for the local mechanic. They don't do paint. The paint shop doesn't do upholstery. Wheel straightening is a speciality shop. The only place to do all this in one place is either a bespoke restoration shop, or a purpose built remanufacturing facility.
Well I don't think they can legally sell it as new.
Land rover actually did something similar with the V8 Defender, they wanted to build one for the 50th anniversary of the defender but there was no chance a "new" defender model would have been been able to go through regulatory approval on that old chassis, so instead they bought hundreds(thousands?) of old second hand defenders off the market, restored them to factory condition and retrofitted them with a brand new V8 engine, gearbox and interior. But those were never sold as "new", your V5C document would always show it as originally registered as whatever the car used to be before the refurbishment.
At least here, these leased vehicles are sold as second-hand, and often sold once or twice again after that. This works fairly well, and most vehicles live a fairly long life. However Toyota only really makes money on the first sale.
By taking the cars in and refurbishing them, Toyota can make money on the second and third sale.
Good thing is this might make cars be around for longer, which can have environmental benefits. However one potential downside is that older cars are usually fundamentally less safe than newer cars, so it might be detrimental to Vision Zero[1]. I doubt the refurb would drastically change safety features like crash structures, number of airbags and similar.
Toyota injects itself into second and third sales via helping their dealers do countrywide reselling and then offering finance products on it. I assume most manufacturers do similar. When you buy through this you get a Toyota warranty and guarantee, as well as a serviced vehicle and confidence around inspections/descriptions.
The remanufacture stuff sounds a lot more like they reckon there is an ability to increase the quality of these resales - which is highly likely. BEVs want battery replace/refurbs but most second hand vehicles have a snag list that is too much of a hassle for dealers to handle, but isn’t that expensive. They are also then given upselling opportunity (towbar / reversing cam / etc.) which would add new margin (and many buyers want).
Of course the main driver is that we are going to soon have large scale sticker shock - going from ICE to EV is £££, particularly for second/third owner. To lose market share and finance here in the next two decades is likely for any manufacturer, and market share is their main value prop for shareholders.
Yeah this is what the great reset is about. It has advantages and disadvantages. Advantage is less incentives to produce short lived products. Disadvantage is that individuals have way less control over things.
If we ever get to actual autonomous driving, that seems inevitable. A manufacturer can't be expected to own liability unless they also own maintenance and upgrades.
Don’t worry, they’ll find a way to make it subscription based. But also, making the mfg own liability for self-driving is a really interesting topic that will change automotive.
As an automotive EE, I’m much more skeptical about autonomous than almost every other person here, but I look forward to being driven to work just the same.
Oh, I'm as skeptical as anyone--at least outside of certain defined conditions like interstates in good weather. But I don't see how manufacturers can't own liability (or something like the vaccine pool). If you sell me a car that's billed/approved as fully autonomous (fully, not in the Tesla FSD sense), it sure as hell isn't on me if it kills someone.
> certain defined conditions like interstates in good weather.
That’s where it is for me. I’ve been around the world and driven in all conditions. I don’t buy blinding whiteout snow, other drivers (Michigan esp)… without vehicle to infrastructure and to vehicle, I don’t buy it.
I think the solution to both our topics is it’ll be “mostly self driving”, maybe that only helps a little for liability.
That sounds great, and I can’t wait! Car ownership is a massive pain and time suck for me. Finding and paying for parking, insurance, and maintenance are huge costs in terms of both money and time. Not to mention the fact that my car spends 99% of its life doing absolutely nothing while also representing my single biggest depreciating asset, greatest risk to my health, and substantial cost to the environment. I would gladly offload as much of that as I can to the manufacturer in exchange for a monthly subscription that lets me use a car whenever I need (either rental car or ride-sharing model).
That’s true, and I do use public transit for about 80% of my travel, which I can only do since I live in a major city. Problem is that I also need to make 1–2 hr trips to the suburbs and out of state every week, and I can’t get away from car ownership for that. Rental cars could fill this gap if they were available more reliably and without having to spend 45 mins in line to get one.
What you're describing sounds like using rental and taxis/"ride shares"/transit for everything which you can do today if your use case/location supports it. Involving a car manufacturer won't change anything fundamental.
Toyota's Kinto (mentioned in OP) is the name for car subscription service in Japan and it have now operated. It covers vehicle price, maintenance fee, inspection fee, insurance, tax, and etc.., as a monthly subscription
Here in Seattle the DOT is proud to salt the roads, in spite of the damage it causes to plants, cars and the dirty runoff it generates.
Considering we didn't let a current mayor make it to the runoffs over his mishandling of snowmageddon a decade ago, I don't think SDOT will be considering modern salt alternatives anytime soon.
It is kinda odd, in snowier rural Oregon they just used red rock cinders to deliver snow and ice traction effectively. But salt seems to be a lower effort solution?
Without a sufficient number of snow plows, they can't keep the snow on roads down to an acceptable amount, so just adding traction elements doesn't help. They never even plowed the almost-arterial near my house, let alone my actual road. At least with salt it will keep the snow softer and more likely to be pushed away by traffic.
Salting is useless if it gets too cold. So it’s only done at max -7C or so (if memory serves right). Here in Finland the southern parts are a salth bath. But the colder northern parts are not salted, and that shows in the average rust levels of cars.
Salting of roads is only done a very narrow band of environments, the UK sitting in the middle of it. If it’s too cold, only a couple of degrees lower than a UK winter, then the salted melt water will re-freeze into deadly black ice. I believe the UK is fairly unique in how much we salt roads, most other countries will grit roads but not salt them.
- Suspension rebuild. The car will function with old suspension but the ride quality will be poor.
- Servicing of engine internals. A car would be down on power significantly after 10 years of wear and can be restored by adjust valve clearances, replacing seals and piston rings, cleaning parts, etc.
- Replacement of hybrid/EV battery. This is already something owners of old Priuses do to restore their cars' range.
- Repair of damaged interiors, especially seat bolstering. Also deep cleaning and ozone treatment.
- Repainting, especially if the car was stored outdoors where UV light wore the paint
- Hardware and software
updates for the infotainment system
>Servicing of engine internals. A car would be down on power significantly after 10 years of wear and can be restored by adjust valve clearances, replacing seals and piston rings, cleaning parts, etc.
This has been functionally debunked by hundreds and hundreds of YouTube videos by dozens of channels who buy bangers and put them on a dyno.
At 10 years, usually only 3-5% power reduction. 20 years? More like 5-6%.
I'm not talking about spring chickens which were babied by retirees, either. I'm talking cars that clearly have had a hard life with tons of deferred maintenance.
I wondered if they were talking about battery powered/electric vehicles, and just forgot to mention that part? But it is a bit weird. My Toyota Corolla is 8 years old and runs perfectly without having been "remanufactured" once, and my experience is by no means unusual (from Toyota, anyway).
Yeah I had a good laugh at that too. I don't even look at cars less than 10 years old when I shop for a "new" car. Let someone else take the depreciation hit and find all the lemons. I'll pick up a survivor for a tenth of what the car cost when new.
Cars take a bit of a beating here in the UK, we salt the heck out of our roads, you’re never more than 100 miles from the sea and it rains all the time. I just scrapped a 14 year old A4 as it had got to the point where so much was rusting away it simply wasn’t worth it. I don’t know anyone with a far older than 15 years.
I live on an island in eastern Canada. Never for than 10 miles from the ocean and they salt the heck out of the roads here too. I’ve never had a car go because of rust. Or even get close to that point. And my current car is the first one I’ve ever owned that is less than 10 years old.
Might be tricky, mostly due to how the transaxle works. Even if you find a space for the battery (the 2021 Rav4 PHEV has bit less ground clearance) the electrical motor of that generation might not be able to drive it on faster speeds without the ICE on. For normal city driving it might work just fine though, kinda like the old custom PHEV swaps for priuses.
My read is that Toyota is trying to find a way to continue to make money from sales but without strictly producing new cars. Overall, if this program is not extending the useful life of their products, it's not a gain for the environment.
Toyotas have positive resale value up to an average of 210,000 [0]. After that point the cost of maintaining them is (theoretically) greater than the resale value.
It seems they are targeting a refresh about every 3 years, and doing that 2 times. The lifetime would then come in at about 10 years, which is right in the ballpark of 200,000 miles.
20k miles a year is significantly above average, most car insurers in the USA were quoting policies based on 1000 miles a month or 10k miles a year this year, same as when I last shopped around in 2018.
> In order to extend its contact time with customers “at least to 10 years”, Toyota will take vehicles back to the factory after their first use cycle (ie a typical lease contract) and refurbish them “to the best standard” to ensure the second user has as new a vehicle as possible.
I don't understand this. They're saying they'll refurbish customer cars starting at 3 years. But modern cars are still look and run like new after 3 years. Also, a few years ago, the average age of a used car in the US was 9 years. Probably greater than that now. Without refurbishment.
The demand in the EU and UK Cars for existing models which do not have speed limit restrictions will be healthy.
From my understanding any Newly launched models from 6th of June 2022 have to be fitted with a speed limiter.
Of course the other reasons due to a shortage of second hand models and new models manufactured recently help
With ICE cars soon being banned from being sold in 2030 just eight years time.
So a well renovated, tried, tested and trusted existing model will suffice for many users. While Toyota save on R&D.
Live in the middle of nowhere or no charging point near your residence? Simply want a car which is not as "restricted"? Plenty of customers will have a refurbed non restricted ICE car, even if a 2021 model years later.
I read the proposal. It argues for making the accelerator "heavier" when over the speed limit. For safety (and political) reasons the driver will have full control over the throttle at all times.
I would be happy if no one could speed under my windows. Difference between 50 kmh and 30 kmh is equivalent to 50% noise reduction (~ -5 dB). And tyre noise becomes dominant just a little over 30 kmh (20 mph).
Wow, sign me up. I already buy refurbished laptops and cellphones.
A potential issue is dealing with rust and crash damage, but just combining good parts and scrapping bad would be better than scrapping the whole car. Or, the cars that can't be fully refurb'd, can just be cleaned up and sold as used cars like they are today.
Give each car a grade, in a standardized fashion, and price accordingly. Also, let me order one by mail.
Ironically something which makes this much less viable (unless the cars are exported after being refreshed) are the ever-shifting goalposts of EU emission standards. This is fundamentally what limits the usable life of a car in the UK - many cars end up on the second hand market not because they don't run anymore but because parking and congestion charge costs in certain cities (ie, London), make the marginal cost of buying a new car (which has better emissions ratings and therefore lower tax,etc) and selling the old one much lower.
I think this is overstating the issue, given how relatively few places in the UK have low emissions zones tied to EU emission standards.
Also, as we are no longer in the EU, I would take a guess that many of those EU emission standards are now UK standards. I'd take another wild guess that they are very similar in a lot of respects, and if so, going forward, you can now blame the UK government entirely, instead of the EU
Where the improvement is no longer rapid, I’d prefer the longevity and repair model for things like phones, electronics, and cars.
It keeps a pool of skill locally and of course done correctly it reduces unnecessary garbage.
There’s a real temptation for companies to follow the Apple model, however, where the product is designed to be unserviceable; or the cost is
prohibitively expensive.
Given the rapid improvements being made in electric power trains, this seems like a no brainer. Take for example a 1st generation Nissan leaf which is now being retrofitted with newer battery packs (with improved cell technology) [1]. Currently this is being done by third party companies but I imagine manufacturers are looking to capitalise on this as volumes of electric cars increase. They are definitely best placed to design and install such an upgrade.
There has been a general rise in battery electric drive train retrofitting in classic cars from 60s and 70s so perhaps we could see Toyota refit 3 or 5 year old gasoline/hybrids with electric powertrains as consumer preferences or emissions regulations change.
While Toyota have the car, they could also update a whole host of things to add value. Interiors and car technology seem to date horribly so getting the latest in car entertainment or driver assistance systems could be another potential revenue stream. Cars also undergo 'mid cycle refresh' so Toyota could do something as simple as bumper updates and swap out newer body parts. Generally the under body remains unchanged in a vehicle lifecycle so swapping out headlights and a bumper would be trivial.
The car industry has for a while been in a existential crisis regarding projections of falling sales and lower revenues. First it was the rise of ride sharing removing the need for personal vehicles, next it was the autonomous driving and now it is electric vehicles with longer service lives and improved reliability. For auto manufacturers, they have been looking for other revenue streams. Recently it has been the growth in services - namely subscription services promising vehicle feature updates and access to 'connected' features. The re-maufacture of vehicles with improved battery packs and the electric drive trains along with other vehicle updates is just another area they could create new revenue streams.
Do you have more info about retrofitting classic cars with EV technology? This is a very neat concept, but I’ve not got the best Google-fu to break into this domain, it seems.
Old BMWs are particularly easy and common for swaps since many of the parts across models and model years are interchangable. The swaps used to be mainly to newer BMW engines or to LS* engines, but there are a few people doing it with Tesla and Toyota parts now.
It's rather interesting from a hacker point of view -- these guys are analyzing the CAN bus signals and checking components with oscilloscopes, then building their own circuit boards to connect and manage the various batteries, inverters, and motors. Check out:
This is a pretty innovative idea, and would add good value to the second and third round owners of vehicles.
I wonder if it would ease depreciation too, making vehicles bought on PCP more affordable, and therefore shifting the bias of sales more towards new. That would help achieve the target if getting ICE car volumes down.
A little part of me can't help wondering if Brexit has a little something to do with this sudden push to UK-based remanufacturing. Reducing the need for EU-origin parts and the associated customs friction.
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[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 264 ms ] threadFor those cars that do suffer from range degradation (eg: 2011 Nissan Leafs), battery swapping has become common, and at a reasonable $3500 and up price point: https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/
I think its great that they are thinking ahead like this, it’s also good for the communities where Toyota have factories in the UK. There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE, bringing them back to the factories for “re-manufacturing” helps to ensure jobs in communities that have been badly hurt by the automotive industry before.
I suspect this is where the whole industry is going to go, the smaller local mechanics are sadly going to disappear but if we see the remanufacturing happening in the countries of use that’s at least a plus.
The other thing this does though is further entrench the manufactures in the second hand market and tie yet more customers to their financing plans.
EDIT:
Wanted to add, that this also helps the manufacture keep control of the value in the battery’s which is probably the largest single const in a BEV. Remanufacturing the battery’s themselves will be massively important.
It will be interesting to see how this effects British Car Auctions (the company) who have a near monopoly on the second hand market.
To properly take advantage of BEVs the drive chain is very different resulting in an incompatible mechanical structure. Also battery’s are very heavy (BEVs are significantly heavier than their ICE equivalents) which is why the battery’s are placed as low as possible. Retrofitting battery’s into ICE to make a BEV would result in a very bad and potentially dangerous weight distribution.
That’s not to say there aren’t components from an ICE that can’t be reused if they haven’t reached the end of their useful life (much of the interior for example). However there is already a good scrap market for these and so I think it’s unlikely manufactures will do it themselves.
The alternative is to completely replace every current car with a new BEV, I don't think this can be done quickly enough or at low enough cost for most people.
Working on doing one now on a truck out at the family farm. I think this is going to be more common as we move away from ICE.
Maybe there'll be less mechanics, but I doubt they'll disappear because they can't do engine work. Engines are super reliable these days - it's the stuff around them which develops problems.
So yes, there will be local mechanics for things such as bodywork and tires, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see only 10-20% of the number of them in 20 years time.
Brakes are dead simple to replace and cheap to do so. Regenerative braking is insignificant in the scheme of refurbishing vehicles.
Wear keeps rust at bay but when they don't get enough wear to remove rust it can make the discs uneven and at that point it can easily spiral out of control.
But every time, it's exhibited as a 'pulsing' feel on the brakes that is alarming before it is dangerous. I suppose to the untrained it could be confused for ABS kicking in but to me it's a very distinct feeling.
https://www.designnews.com/automotive/lightweight-aluminum-b...
What happens when the power fails?
So, power fails? It stops. Quickly.
Done likely because these vehicles are larger and hydraulic brake fluid runs the risk of boiling (air compresses unlike fluid) and/or catching fire.
As for brake fluid and fires, I had a neighbor's Ford Explorer (more like Exploder?) catch fire while parked and it burned down to the chassis due to this: https://www.cozen.com/admin/files/publications/Motor_Vehicle...
Bodywork can easily make a car a write off, especially if exotic materials (aluminum, carbon, composites) are used.
Don't think this is true, I was looking at the MOT record of a car a few days ago and emissions failure was definitely stated as MOT failure reason.
They're getting a lot more strict on ECU testing, too. Used to be you just needed to have no check emissions codes being thrown. Now they're more thorough, for most ECUs they can check to also verify no modifications to the emissions settings (can't just tell the computer it has no cat so it doesn't throw codes).
Hydrocarbons 0.023/1.2 (1:50) CO 0.3/15 (1:50) CO2 502/NA (guess this one has no limit?) NOx 0.081/2 (1:25)
Maybe some states apply newer, stricter limits to older cars retroactively but in my experience as long as a car is operating normally it is impossible to fail emissions. I wouldn't be surprised if the ECU threw a code before the dynamo test caught something. IMO the most practical check they actually do is the presence of a functioning gas cap.
Even that throws a code these days. 14y.o. BMW has a pump that pressurizes the fuel system to check for leaks and it’s usually the pump that breaks and throws a code.
17y.o. Corolla threw a fuel system code but it was the gas cap.
Only thing is that this pressurization check system only runs when the weather is warm enough, so resetting a code usually lets you pass e-testing as “Not Ready” because months can go by. Maybe there’s differences in summer/winter e-testing criteria.
The next year emissions weren't an issue, mainly because the only journey it did was a 250 mile run up the A1/A66/A6 and back again on a weekly basis.
> "I think we’re very familiar with the usual two- to three-year cycles that are extremely popular in the UK, [...] Toyota will take vehicles back to the factory after their first use cycle (ie a typical lease contract) and refurbish them
This article isn't about "remanufacturing" cars at end-of-life - it's about three-year-old cars.
Typically, what happens post-lease is that the inspection will help determine whether the vehicle is of the correct 'quality' to be Certified Pre-Owned (i.e. sufficient quality or fixing whatever's wrong and selling as CPO is worth doing) and that's kinda the first decision gate.
After that, I would assume that the dealer getting the lease back has some pull as to whether they keep it, but that might be contingent on a few factors like what your agreement with the leasing company is and what your current floorplan is like. (Many dealers in the US don't own most of the inventory on their lots, so any car you keep on your lot eats into that line of credit.)
Oh, also the agreements between the financing companies and the auctions themselves. In some cases the agreements are extremely tight, and there are only small windows where someone doesn't already have the 'rights' to sell a vehicle. (That was a fun project.)
(Which is amusingly the cheapest way to buy your car at the end of lease... just ask the pick up driver where he's taking it...)
The car is used, often just off-lease, but it's inspected by the dealership and minor repairs are done so it can be resold with the original warranty essentially reset as if it were new.
It is much more like how Apple, for example, sell refurbished devices that have been put back down a production line for remanufacturing.
I think the intention is for the remanufactured cars to be almost indistinguishable from a brand new car (as an Apple refurbished device is).
Make it look as new as you can, sell it at a premium as a "certifed" car, with maybe a 2-year warranty. Profit.
Even a 5 year old car is very unlikely to have any major mechanical issues unless it has been abused.
- Car starts
- Windshield wipers present
- Door locks work
- Key fobs work
...etc
That sounds so ridiculous to anyone living in the UK. The second hand market here dwarfs all other routes to obtaining your own vehicle. I've never bought a car less than 10 years old.
It would seem that of new car sales, 93% are leased[2]
> The percentage of private new car sales financed by FLA members in the twelve months to October 2021 was 93.0%, a similar level to the same period in 2020.
[1]https://www.statista.com/statistics/299841/market-volumes-of...
[2]https://www.fla.org.uk/research/motor-finance/
I haven't seen this talk - I think most cars get scrapped when the chassis rots, or the suspension goes, or the tech’s obsolete - not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go. So BEV should be no different?
No such thing drives similar changes for other components. I drove a 2003 Honda Pilot 265k miles and get rid of it in 2019. It needed shocks, brakes and would have needed the exhaust system replaced soon due to rust. Just wasn’t worth the money.
I sold it to a guy I know for $2000, he drove it until last year, removed the engine and transmission, and sold it.
The engine can be the last thing to go, if you are good about checking and changing your oil.
If you let the oil run low, or let it sludge up, or don't promptly detect a cooling system leak [1], that will damage the bearings, and then it is only a matter of time before it dies.
[1] Some engines can have the head gasket start to leak, which lets coolant into the combustion chamber (which is bad). Worse are the engine designs that integrate the water pump into the engine block. If the water pump leaks (which they often do, it drips coolant directly into the oil, which is super bad.
An external water pump, in contrast, will just leak on the outside of the engine onto the ground. In either case, the coolant will run low, and eventually the engine will overheat. However, in the external pump case, you can just fix the leaky pump, and assuming you didn't try to run it overheated, you're fine.
But with an internal water pump, by the time the coolant has run low, you've severely degraded the oil too, and likely damaged the bearings. In addition, replacing the internal pump usually means dropping the entire engine out of the vehicle, which is far more costly.
Thus endeth my rant on water pumps.
First - it is rusting a lot. Then the car door doesn't close properly when it is colder than -15 or -20. Then the car has decided that the esp is faulty 2 times on longer rides in cold weather and that the max speed should be 20kmh (luckily a restart of the car fixed that)
I don't think ive ever heard about people talking about changing their oil here in europe in actual day-to-day life, but I have heard much more about antifreeze or windscreen wiper fluid or even water/coolant.
I have never changed my oil in my car, despite having it over a year, and won't look to do it for another year yet. I think that would give most Americans a heart attack.
They've got an entire industry over there changing oil 4x more frequently than actually required.
Absolutely bizarre.
One of the reasons people give for buying German luxury cars is because they only need the oil changed once a year vs the 3-4x a year for American or Japanese or Volkswagen cars.
No clue about American & Japanese cars, but for VW (and Opel) it's definitely just once per year (in Switzerland).
We bought a VW Polo, kept it for ten years, then changed it for a VW Sharan, and recently added a VW Up. Total miles driven must be around 200k.
Based on a sekrit strategy - called reading then following the service manual - can confirm that (at least our) Volkswagens do not need their oil changing "3-4x a year"!
(assuming you're not doing significantly more than 10,000 miles per year) "For the first three years of ownership, your car will require an annual service inspection and oil service."
This seems to be the recommendation for US/Canada too...
Either 5 is justified by engineering or 20 is? One of them must be some kind of misrepresentation?
If I go to the local auto parts store here, I can spend ~$1.00/qt for oil or more than $10.00/qt for oil. Guess which oil most people will buy?
Also I don't really have any confidence that the dealers are using factory specified oil. I think they probably use the cheapest bulk oil they can buy. That's why I change my own oil, that way I know what is in the engine.
My guess is the guidance is to avoid some PR nightmare.
Seems to me reading the thread that the difference is because US dealers use crappy oil so they specify more oil changes? Or maybe it's just greed.
If they followed anything like what we did, they would just run load cycles on the engine in a test cell to simulate approximately however many miles of ‘normal’ use they want to validate the engine up to. During the testing the engine would be maintained, fueled, and oiled according to the maintenance schedule and customer guidelines the engine will be sold with.
After the testing, the engine would be completely broken down and analyzed. If there weren’t any signs of abnormal wear then the engine would be considered validated __under those conditions__.
The problem is when real-world use deviates from the testing conditions. Which is pretty much always. Then the manufacturer guidelines no longer apply.
If you run your engine harder than the test cycle load factor, you will need to replace the engine oil more regularly. If your fuel quality is crap, i.e. has any ethanol in it, you will need to replace your oil more regularly as fuel eventually gets into the oil, and ethanol results in high water content in fuels, and hence oil, which will break down seals as well as reduce overall lubrication.
If your engine breaks down due to poor oil quality from lack of regular inspection and replacement, then as a manufacturer I’d be very resistant to paying out on any warranty claim. Even if you followed the “guidelines” for oil changes, you still have a duty to inspect the oil regularly, both as a responsible driver and under the car manual guidelines. Using bad oil and / or fuel is very easy to test for.
Long story short, the oil change intervals guidelines are just that, guidelines, and real-world use dictates the maintenance schedule. Frequent oil changes, before the oil breaks down / becomes crap, is just a quick, cheap way to prolong the life of your engine or any mechanical device with bearings or sliding surfaces for that matter.
No this isn’t true. I check my oil as regularly as the manual tells me to, which is every two years. That’s literally the published inspection schedule in the UK for this car. If that isn’t regular enough and the engine wears that’s a warranty issue covered by the manufacturer.
Waiting two years before realizing your engine is drinking oil is probably reckless which wouldn’t be covered under any warranty.
That is real-world use in most of Europe and is included in the higher mileage between oil changes compared to the US discussed here. I don't even think most Europeans inside the EU have access to ethanol free petrol? At least around here (Denmark) it would be illegal. If a car breaks down because of ethanol in the petrol it is of course covered by the manufacturer. Otherwise they might as well state "warranty 5 years but not if petrol has been added at any point".
The manufacturer specified intervals are just fine and you'd need to be an extreme outlier to have any problems with your oil following them. Maybe if you have a caravan attached at all times or drive off-road or racing or all of the above at the same time. Otherwise consumer law would mandate the manufacturer pay for any damages caused, as it damn well should. It is also the manufacturer that would have to prove the fault is yours. Not possible if the car have been serviced even if done by a third-party shop. The oil would have to be visible damaged even if looked at by a granny (they cannot demand you understand oil better than "it looks like oil and is inside the specified mileage").
It’s a weird topic that people get religious about. I will say that in the 90s when I changed it myself, the viscosity of the oil was very different if you went longer between changes.
I also know that there are some appreciable differences between EU and US standards for diesel (higher cetane number in Europe) which adversely impacts the performance of small diesel engines in the US, but I don't know if there are any similar issues with gasoline.
I'd also be curious about the manufacturer's specified oil. It is surprisingly common for new vehicles in the US to still specify conventional or blended oil, where 5k miles is a more common change interval. I've seen as high as 15k mile change interval specified in the manual for a US vehicle but the manual also specified full synthetic only (this was a turbocharged engine which tends to adversely impact life, I wonder if a similar naturally aspirated may have listed 20k).
In any case the "change oil every 3k miles" guideline is long gone in the US, with 5k-14k being more common, but nonetheless 3k was common for long enough that it seems to be thoroughly instilled into the minds of many members of the baby boomer generation. I think this has given a certain license to the chain lube shops, long a source of suspect business practices, to continue to use 3k miles for their window stickers. That said I've seen even Jiffy Lube put in a window sticker for 7k miles, for a blended oil. There's a story (I don't know if it's true) that the 3k mile recommendation stuck around for so long only because the domestic automakers were uninterested in going to the expense of longer testing, and that situation changed due to both media involvement (Consumer Reports for example took this on as a big issue in the '90s) and competition from the Japanese automakers that had invested more money into research.
5k actually seems unusually low for a new production vehicle and I would tend to think that must have been specified for conventional or at least blended. Outside of some older engines with detergent-related concerns pretty much the only thing keeping conventional oil on the market is price and more and more vehicles are specifying synthetic only.
Finally, temperatures across the UK are much more moderate than across the US. While synthetic oils have less issues this way, oil behavior in terms of actual viscosity and lubricity tends to vary appreciably by temperature, and worst of all mostly when it matters most right after startup. This has an adverse impact on both oil and engine life. It's become less common for US vehicles to specify different oil grades for different seasons/temperature ranges (although some still do), but US maintenance guidelines are still going to be developed for a pretty wide temperature range that notably includes ambient temperatures in the 80-100F/26-37C range that significantly thin oil and are uncommon in the UK. A similar problem exists at the low end, in parts of the US cold start temperatures of 20F/-7C are routine and most vehicle manuals no longer call for block heat until you get down to nearly 0F. Oil can take a long time to "limber" starting from these low temperatures and that's hard on engine life and puts a lot of metal shavings in the oil. Manufacturers kind of have to set their maintenance recommendations at "lowest common denominator" since practical experience with seasonal/climate-based oil recommendations have shown that vehicle owners and maintenance shops are both extremely bad at following them.
Does your owner’s manual recommend abiding by certain speed/rpm limits during a break-in period? I’m pretty sure my (Canadian) old car/old truck do.
I change the oil on our CR-V every year (about 5-6K miles) and because it’s 17 years and 225K miles old it uses some oil, which I top up twice between annual changes.
The amount of oil changing done in the US is indeed excessive and driven by promoting the practice to consumers who, in general, couldn’t find their oil filter nor explain the function of oil and oil filtration, and can only judge based on what everyone is doing and whether they can afford it. The little reminder stickers to bring your car back in 3K (yes!) miles are a critical business supply for an oil change franchise.
Also be sure they are actually using the correct synthetic oil for your car, and not conventional 10w40 that would be appropriate for a 1978 Chevy.
No, no, no, no, no.
Stretch the oil change intervals a little if you have to, but you need to check the oil on a regular basis.
The oil level and quality are critical to the life of the engine. By the time the oil pressure warning light comes on, you may already have irreparable damage to the main bearings.
So mostly it is pandering to old people, but it is still an expression
Some things about it stand out in memory. Engines were so big and un-compacted back then it was relatively easy to fit your hands and tools where ever they needed to go and pieces of the engine basically looked like what you’d expect them to be.
The other thing I found out later was that my father was desperate to sell me the car, because it allowed him to get me off his insurance. I was a 17 year old boy, with one fender bender already under my belt and my parents had just bought a new Mercedes sedan. For insurance purposes, as a licensed driver living with them, without my own car the insurance company considered me a driver of the new car and the insurance was outrageous. After my dad sold me the car, I was off their main policy and on a separate one. Very tricky dad.
Don't know what is the current status. Audi started dipping the bodies in zinc since 1987. So technologies exist.
Fancy way to say galvanised?
Rust is much less of a problem for anything manufactured this century. Suspension is pretty cheap to fix, it cost me <$2000 to get my entire front suspension replaced a while back.
I'm guessing you don't have below freezing temperatures, and roads sprinkled with salt every winter? That's the real suspension and car chassis killer.
I've also heard that it's similar near seas (or oceans), where non negligible amounts of salt from the sea are present as aerosol in the air.
Suspension bushings, springs, and shocks have a long life but, by the time the battery needs changing, are probably worn out. The wheels have been bashed enough to at least need straightening. The driver's seat padding and upholstery is probably shot. If it has a steel body it has dings and the corrosion protection and paint will need at least a touch up. The windshield is pitted.
This means it's not just a job for the local mechanic. They don't do paint. The paint shop doesn't do upholstery. Wheel straightening is a speciality shop. The only place to do all this in one place is either a bespoke restoration shop, or a purpose built remanufacturing facility.
What's this? You've used it multiple times as if we're supposed to know what it means.
You can mostly figure it out from the context.
Land rover actually did something similar with the V8 Defender, they wanted to build one for the 50th anniversary of the defender but there was no chance a "new" defender model would have been been able to go through regulatory approval on that old chassis, so instead they bought hundreds(thousands?) of old second hand defenders off the market, restored them to factory condition and retrofitted them with a brand new V8 engine, gearbox and interior. But those were never sold as "new", your V5C document would always show it as originally registered as whatever the car used to be before the refurbishment.
At least here, these leased vehicles are sold as second-hand, and often sold once or twice again after that. This works fairly well, and most vehicles live a fairly long life. However Toyota only really makes money on the first sale.
By taking the cars in and refurbishing them, Toyota can make money on the second and third sale.
Good thing is this might make cars be around for longer, which can have environmental benefits. However one potential downside is that older cars are usually fundamentally less safe than newer cars, so it might be detrimental to Vision Zero[1]. I doubt the refurb would drastically change safety features like crash structures, number of airbags and similar.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero
The remanufacture stuff sounds a lot more like they reckon there is an ability to increase the quality of these resales - which is highly likely. BEVs want battery replace/refurbs but most second hand vehicles have a snag list that is too much of a hassle for dealers to handle, but isn’t that expensive. They are also then given upselling opportunity (towbar / reversing cam / etc.) which would add new margin (and many buyers want).
Of course the main driver is that we are going to soon have large scale sticker shock - going from ICE to EV is £££, particularly for second/third owner. To lose market share and finance here in the next two decades is likely for any manufacturer, and market share is their main value prop for shareholders.
As an automotive EE, I’m much more skeptical about autonomous than almost every other person here, but I look forward to being driven to work just the same.
That’s where it is for me. I’ve been around the world and driven in all conditions. I don’t buy blinding whiteout snow, other drivers (Michigan esp)… without vehicle to infrastructure and to vehicle, I don’t buy it.
I think the solution to both our topics is it’ll be “mostly self driving”, maybe that only helps a little for liability.
Things like good, secure parking and segregated paths.
In Canada Toyota car are used for about 20 years without the manufacturer involvement.
There is very few thing to ’fix’ of a less than 10y Toyota in a climate without salt on the road.
Considering we didn't let a current mayor make it to the runoffs over his mishandling of snowmageddon a decade ago, I don't think SDOT will be considering modern salt alternatives anytime soon.
It is kinda odd, in snowier rural Oregon they just used red rock cinders to deliver snow and ice traction effectively. But salt seems to be a lower effort solution?
https://www.theurbanist.org/2019/02/06/seattles-salt-addicti...
Salt works great when it’s re-freezing back and forth multiple times a day. Stone chips are great when it freezes once and stays for a long time.
- Suspension rebuild. The car will function with old suspension but the ride quality will be poor.
- Servicing of engine internals. A car would be down on power significantly after 10 years of wear and can be restored by adjust valve clearances, replacing seals and piston rings, cleaning parts, etc.
- Replacement of hybrid/EV battery. This is already something owners of old Priuses do to restore their cars' range.
- Repair of damaged interiors, especially seat bolstering. Also deep cleaning and ozone treatment.
- Repainting, especially if the car was stored outdoors where UV light wore the paint
- Hardware and software updates for the infotainment system
Ship the car overseas for the work and labor costs could be quite low.
This has been functionally debunked by hundreds and hundreds of YouTube videos by dozens of channels who buy bangers and put them on a dyno.
At 10 years, usually only 3-5% power reduction. 20 years? More like 5-6%.
I'm not talking about spring chickens which were babied by retirees, either. I'm talking cars that clearly have had a hard life with tons of deferred maintenance.
Toyotas have positive resale value up to an average of 210,000 [0]. After that point the cost of maintaining them is (theoretically) greater than the resale value.
It seems they are targeting a refresh about every 3 years, and doing that 2 times. The lifetime would then come in at about 10 years, which is right in the ballpark of 200,000 miles.
[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2014/05/31/toyota-lead...
I don't understand this. They're saying they'll refurbish customer cars starting at 3 years. But modern cars are still look and run like new after 3 years. Also, a few years ago, the average age of a used car in the US was 9 years. Probably greater than that now. Without refurbishment.
As someone who runs vehicles for 20+ years, while interior durability has improved, I still do find myself needing to do a midlife reupholstering.
From my understanding any Newly launched models from 6th of June 2022 have to be fitted with a speed limiter.
Of course the other reasons due to a shortage of second hand models and new models manufactured recently help With ICE cars soon being banned from being sold in 2030 just eight years time.
So a well renovated, tried, tested and trusted existing model will suffice for many users. While Toyota save on R&D.
Live in the middle of nowhere or no charging point near your residence? Simply want a car which is not as "restricted"? Plenty of customers will have a refurbed non restricted ICE car, even if a 2021 model years later.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandatory-speed-li...
Outside of the real enthusiasts I think most people won't care.
https://workinggroupnoise.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/leafle...
Something like BMW's Car2Go is the logical endpoint. I'm curious why that effort seems stalled.
Maybe Tesla's move into auto insurance is the better path. Financially. Free capital, like Buffett did with Geico.
The cynical side of me thinks this is just a way to control the after-market and eliminate third party repair shops and mechanics.
A better way would be to design their cars with right to repair in mind, that way the environment and the consumer benefits.
A potential issue is dealing with rust and crash damage, but just combining good parts and scrapping bad would be better than scrapping the whole car. Or, the cars that can't be fully refurb'd, can just be cleaned up and sold as used cars like they are today.
Give each car a grade, in a standardized fashion, and price accordingly. Also, let me order one by mail.
Also, as we are no longer in the EU, I would take a guess that many of those EU emission standards are now UK standards. I'd take another wild guess that they are very similar in a lot of respects, and if so, going forward, you can now blame the UK government entirely, instead of the EU
It keeps a pool of skill locally and of course done correctly it reduces unnecessary garbage.
There’s a real temptation for companies to follow the Apple model, however, where the product is designed to be unserviceable; or the cost is prohibitively expensive.
There has been a general rise in battery electric drive train retrofitting in classic cars from 60s and 70s so perhaps we could see Toyota refit 3 or 5 year old gasoline/hybrids with electric powertrains as consumer preferences or emissions regulations change.
While Toyota have the car, they could also update a whole host of things to add value. Interiors and car technology seem to date horribly so getting the latest in car entertainment or driver assistance systems could be another potential revenue stream. Cars also undergo 'mid cycle refresh' so Toyota could do something as simple as bumper updates and swap out newer body parts. Generally the under body remains unchanged in a vehicle lifecycle so swapping out headlights and a bumper would be trivial.
The car industry has for a while been in a existential crisis regarding projections of falling sales and lower revenues. First it was the rise of ride sharing removing the need for personal vehicles, next it was the autonomous driving and now it is electric vehicles with longer service lives and improved reliability. For auto manufacturers, they have been looking for other revenue streams. Recently it has been the growth in services - namely subscription services promising vehicle feature updates and access to 'connected' features. The re-maufacture of vehicles with improved battery packs and the electric drive trains along with other vehicle updates is just another area they could create new revenue streams.
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4nS_tSQiVQ
e.g: http://ev-torque.com.au/ https://www.evmachina.com/ https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com/ https://www.evclassic.com.au/
It's rather interesting from a hacker point of view -- these guys are analyzing the CAN bus signals and checking components with oscilloscopes, then building their own circuit boards to connect and manage the various batteries, inverters, and motors. Check out:
https://evbmw.com/
https://www.instagram.com/teslified_e30/
https://www.instagram.com/tesla_bimmer/
Disclaimer: I'm an E30 owner myself.
I wonder if it would ease depreciation too, making vehicles bought on PCP more affordable, and therefore shifting the bias of sales more towards new. That would help achieve the target if getting ICE car volumes down.