Ask HN: Career change for elderly UK ex-convict?
Am an ex-solicitor. I got out of UK jail a couple of years ago, I did some whitecollar stuff and I have a permanently un-unspent conviction for money-laundering. I'm over 60 with law & a science degree plus several post-grad qualifications. I'm currently doing a masters in data science for interest. I used to be a programmer back in the 80s and keep up with the topic (Erlang, OCaml, F#, Python Golang etc).
I'll never pass jobs with DBS checks due to convictions. plus I guess I'll never get a job coding due to ageism (I'd wondered about COBOL but banks and government wouldn't take me), and I dont fancy doing all the BS prep needed for interviews anyway. But I like stats ML and data so I'd love to try for that. But the age and convictions are a serious problems.
I don't imagine anyone on HN has anyone with my collection of problems but does anyone have any suggestions that might help?
185 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 242 ms ] threadI can't speak for how any of their HR departments would treat your case though.
I don't have a specific answer to your question, but a couple of stray thoughts:
1. You could attempt to find an open source project of interest to you, and start contributing, make yourself part of the community, make some friends so to speak. If/when you later confide your secret, you're already known and proven yourself to the community, and will probably be received in a much more positive light.
Not sure where that leads you, but a network is always useful. Maybe you can raise money and get paid to maintain that software. Maybe your community will endorse you to your new employers.
2. You are more likely to be employed in projects that involve the penal system, in which case your handicap turns itself on its head, and becomes "insider experience". I've seen many startups and charities relating to this. Perhaps there's an ML project out there in this topic that would greatly benefit from your insight.
Working chance, and The Skill Mill
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911467 ( Launch HN: 70MillionJobs (YC S17) – Job board for people with criminal records )
In NL, banks have been expanding their anti-fraud division for years, maybe this would be a good fit?
I wouldn't assume that. Demand for coders with experience is through the roof at the moment, and from what I can tell the ageism issue is less severe in the UK than it is in the US.
I can see your conviction being an issue for data science jobs as such a job inherently requires trusting you to have access to the data. But perhaps you could find a job that's working on public datasets? Perhaps it would be worth considering trying to find a government / civil service job? They will have lots of public data, and probably have good non-discrimination policies too.
> I wouldn't assume that.
I can't add a lot to this discussion, but my colleague, who is in his 50s, got hired around the same time as me here in the UK.
On the other hand for more generic startup jobs in the UK, you might not even be asked about criminal history except "so what is this period on your CV", and they are much less likely to care as long as you tell a good story about why it won't happen again.
I'd lean towards smaller companies as far from government and finance as possible...
I've gone through a few of those where the client supplied the contract and only two out of maybe a dozen had any caluse related to convictions (from a quick search of them).
One was a clause about people working on the project being:
> fit and proper persons for the tasks assigned to them, and in particular have no unspent criminal convictions for any offence involving dishonesty or computer crime
Another had a clause about terminating the contract early if the contractor is:
> being convicted of any criminal offence other than a minor driving offence under the Road Traffic Acts
None of the others I looked at had anything else like that. I don't think any convictions would be a major barrier for OP if they are working with typical private sector companies. As other have said, it's likely any public sector work or specific industires such as education, defenece, or finance might have more checks in place.
This kind of thinking is what got him in to this position in first place. There's a reason convicted money launderers shouldn't be allowed to run companies.
Though I'd check about you being able to be a company director.
A bigger issue may be things that require credit checks, like business loans, bank accounts, insurance, etc.
Some good advice here: https://unlock.org.uk/advice/things-think-becoming-self-empl...
If you’re setting yourself up in a consultancy, you don’t usually need start up capital and hence no loans required.
Bank accounts and insurance are a requirement however!
The vast, vast majority of incarcerated people need basic skills training to even be able to look for a job. Functional illiteracy is high, most have at best a grade-school level of reading/writing and math skills. There are many reasons why folks end up in jail, typically for each person a multitude of things went sideways early in life. One of the most common of these is a completely derailed education. It's never too late of course, and most people getting out of jail are still in their 20's and 30's.
They're hungry for legit work, so yeah, there's enormous untapped potential. The organizations working in this space get government and private funding but are always on the verge of vaporizing. They are, AFAIK, non-profits with very strong social-work, basic-education, traditional vo-tech focus (because that's what their clients need most).
If you stick to the private sector, the convictions wont even come up unless you bring them up and i think it would be rare to come up against ageism, and if you do, then simply, you dont want to work for those companies anyway.
Talk to some recruiters, tell them your skillset and see what they've got, I wouldnt bother mentioning the convictions because i personally dont see them as relevant (because whats relevant is, can you do the job), and they'll come back with options. If they talk about government or bank work, just say you'll pass on those and would rather work for a private company. I have the same preference purely due to my distaste for paperwork and beaurocracy, private companies are easier to deal with.
I suggest trying to reframe your mindset to evidence based, rather than assumption based. Right now you're making a lot of assumptions that you wont be successful without having any evidence of such. You have a lot of valuable skills, go and assess the marketplace, in my opinion, you can be successful.
one extra tip would to try and get some experience that you can put on your CV. eg do some opensource programming - looks good
Depends on locale. In the UK (IANAL) it wouldn't be _fraud_, but would be grounds to terminating the contract. But not criminal.
Employer could potentially sue for damages, but there must be some damages for that.
After Brexit he'd need a work permit for that, and I assume convictions are a factor with those.
> The Supplier warrants:
> that the Consultant has no criminal convictions which would reasonably affect the Company's and/or the Client's decision to allow the Consultant access to the Location(s), the Client's Systems or to provide the Services;
And that may not be fraud of you have a lawyer analyse it.
FWIW I've been checked by several employers throughout my career – and generally none of them warned me beforehand, I just got the letter from DBS letting me know they had
That link also mentions the requirements around an ex-offender policy that the company needs to have. I'd request that if I was declined, to ensure the employer is actually following a process. If not, there could be some room for negotiation.
Smaller organizations that are not in regulated industries will be better bets for the original poster. Finance, pharma, healthcare, education etc. are all regulated industries and will have to maintain some level of compliance. How well they do it will vary, but if you aren't flagged initially, you may well be flagged later on. This happens all the time. Small FinTech specialises in trying to skirt the boundary of compliance at times, so you may find that some are laxer than others.
A sweet spot might be software efforts supporting manufacturing or marketing. There are a lot of agencies that build smaller software for large organisations that don't do these in-depth checks and are often building/demoing in their own environment before handing everything over to the company or providing the hosting so that a department can run shadow IT.
1) Good recruiters will bypass some of the HR confusion (misunderstanding team requirements, etc)
2) You have a valuable set of skills and are looking for a specific type of job. Recruiters are better about this than blind applying
Furthermore, the "What industry?" question will be an excellent opportunity to avoid processes where your conviction is likely to impact. People have legitimate reasons for wanting to avoid heavily-regulated industries (boring, slow), so it's not an odd question.
I would say if you go through recruiters, be aware (in the US at least) there are good recruiters (who have a line on positions and work hard) and bad recruiters (who are trying to bootstrap a rep by "representing" as many people exclusively as they can). Be extremely suspicious before signing any exclusivity contracts with one.
As a contractor in the UK, I've had to deal with them many times. The recruiting industry here has a reputation for cut throat, scumbag practices. Lying about open job applications, cold calling to fish for info on your current role, ghosting you after you make an application with them, chronic time wasting/giving false hope. These are some of what you can expect. There are, of course, good recruiters - more 'human' ones. They're rare, but you'll know when you've got one. I have some saved in my phone.
If you are firm with them you can avoid them wasting your time. But to rely on them is a mistake.
Good luck OP. Also +1 for contracting in private sector because the B2B nature of it avoids checks.
Edit: seems like other people have had contracts with clauses around prev convictions, so maybe ask for a blank contract ahead of time.
I would expect that they need to be honest about the conviction when asked. There are a lot of ways to present that as a positive. For example, saying that they will be very committed to a position because it is so difficult to get a job.
Start your own company (<£20 registration fee) then find outside IR35 contracts via LinkedIn recruiters: find a role that uses the intersection of your skills + experience — i.e: a data science contract with a law-adjacent firm. Very quick and easy, if you have skills then you’d have a job before the week is out.
Don’t reject yourself before anyone else has the chance to: the bar for these jobs is very, very low.
Best of luck.
Criminal convictions just limit your job options. They are not a life sentence. If you have paid your debt to society and follow the law now, you can still have a great life. And, I hope you do.
Edit: I would also encourage you to never lie if asked about the conviction. If you lie, people will know and they won't trust you. Never lie about it.
What exactly causes someone seemingly so successful to fall down so far? Greed? Drugs? Illness?
As far as the age situation goes, depending on how much over 60 you are...That could mean 80 and I wouldn't normally think that but well...but in any case if you are healthy you probably have another 10-15 good years ahead of you.
If you are currently working on completing a masters degree for interest sake, I assume this means you have a means of support in place and are not supporting any dependents.
I would think that looking into charitable organizations may be a good fit for someone with your past who is wanting to give back to society. I would not be looking for a career as I think unfortunately that ship has sailed and possibly sunken after crashing into the penitentiary's rocks.
Working or volunteering for a charity might make up for some of the "White Collar Stuff" in the grand scale of things (Especially if that "stuff" resulted in putting Widows and Orphans into the Poorhouse/Workhouse).
What he does describe sounds like he does indeed want to work, and I hope he finds an employer, somewhere.
That is the comment that sounds unjustifiably mean and negative. I'm surprised you are doubling down on it.
Crashing into the prison rocks could be taken as cruel I suppose but the fact is this person was a lawyer who broke the law at least twice got caught and the crime was substantial enough that it was judged they needed to be locked up for committing it. It is very unfortunate for everyone involved and most likely a career ending event.
I have personally witnessed the effects of so called white collar crime, it is not a victimless crime and should not be discounted.
TBH I'm not thrilled with the fact they are working on a masters degree, it seems like a waste of public resources spending them on someone who had it all, threw it away and still wants more. It feels like they are taking away an opportunity from someone more deserving just to feed their EGO.
Now to actually be cruel I would have to say something like, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" or "You can put wings on shit but it still wont fly" but I wouldn't want to come across as mean.
It is also not a sounding board for sociopaths presenting themselves as victims of ageism.
>>>I'll never pass jobs with DBS checks due to convictions. plus I guess I'll never get a job coding due to ageism
He's still employed now and has had a fairly decent career.
Lying in the application process would do little to alleviate that worry. Sure the, employer would have to find out first. But is it really the first thing an ex-convict looking for a job should do?
Well the first part of your post describes why that might be necessary (i.e. you imply you would be unlikely to hire an ex-convict because they might do 'stupid shit', while OP is trying to find a job to get his feet back on the ground).
Nobody wants to lie, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to sort your life out.
It's maybe sort of a fundamental attitude, either you are honest or not.
Also this "I had no other choice" rationale also seems like a risk factor for slipping into crime again.
- Have a look at LegalTech companies: https://www.maddyness.com/uk/2020/10/05/legaltech-12-startup.... I guess there is a small but existing ecosystem and community in those communities and you could get there.
- (Anti) Money laundering is a very hot topic in fintechs, and my experience is suggesting it is the most ML and AI intensive sector (trying to understand if a given transaction is related to money laundering is a non-supervised ML domain), there is a decent amount of graph algos involved and also the regulation is still quite archaic. I would say if positioned well, someone with backgrounds in legal and tech is a very valuable asset for any fintech.
I also believe your conviction could be turned into your strong asset - you already have a unique and genuine story to tell. If you are ok into public speaking, you could get a speaker slot any any AML|Legal + tech related conference.
I also believe going informal networking is more efficient then going through the formal recruitment process - this is where all your unique selling points would turn into disadvantages. Recruitment is designed to be scalable and you are an outlier there.
> I also believe your conviction could be turned into your strong asset - you already have a unique and genuine story to tell
I so love this. It reminds me of Frank Abagnale, Jr., whose story is told in “Catch me if you can“. He went from convicted felon to savior of the banking industry and implemented a ton of solutions to the very things he exploited.
> you could get a speaker slot any any AML|Legal + tech related conference.
this is also a wonderful suggestion that could help you rapidly reframe your story.
> I also believe going informal networking is more efficient then going through the formal recruitment process
Can confirm this is crucial. I am the son of an executive recruiter who placed a ton of CFOs into midsize startups back in the dot-com days. When Mom was teaching me how to land jobs she suggested only using job boards and the like to get a feel for who is hiring and then networking in.
Would be even more important with special circumstances like yours. People hire people, not resumes for the most part.
I also know at least one company who specifically hires only ex-cons (in construction so this isn’t directly relevant to you) to help them get on their feet and keep them from repeat offending out of desperation.
----- The rest of this post is wonderful too but I don’t have much more to add to it.
The nice thing about jobhunting is you only need one person to say yes.
Reframing your problem into an asset and thinking about how you could uniquely help the industry could set you apart in a positive way.
Possibly not the best comparison; from past discussions here on HN (and wikipedia), I gather that Abagnale was an exaggerator and may have fabricated much of his myth.
That said, I think grandparent comment is right - you have some very unique experience that would be of specific value to somebody. The trick is figuring out who that somebody is and then pitching your experience as an asset, not a liability. It may be very niche and it may require relocating, but it's going to be more fun than trying to hide a big secret.
https://www.ex-seed.co.uk/recommended-companies.html
Some of them are pretty big (e.g. Tesco) so I'd maybe try scanning their job pages and see if any of them have opening for entry level data scientists?
I have a friend in a somewhat similar position - a highly educated, disbarred UK lawyer who did few years in prison. Drop me an email if you want me to put you in touch - me@alexmuir.com
Here is a good starting point. https://www.hostinger.com/tutorials/best-freelance-websites
Keep in mind that these types of websites always keep a relevant part of your money. Think of them as a Google Add investment. Try to create your own brand and make it clear that you have a website where they can contact you in the future.
Best of luck!
However there are large industries in the UK that will offer a solid job, the ones that spring to mind are academia and the charity sector. These industries aren't the top paying, and that's exactly why these jobs aren't being fought over. Additionally as you'll not come into direct contact with vulnerable people or children, DBS checks are unlikely to apply and the sector based restrictions like those in the financial industry are not present.
The work in these industries also isn't the most challenging for coding, the challenge is typically it not being funded well enough and having to find cheap and pragmatic solutions you can maintain. In the charitable sector you really need to know Drupal and PHP... and then a mix of how to glue things together, run IT systems, etc. In academia it can be a real mix of work, from IT services, through to website and email services, all the way up to "PhD student knows what they want to run on a supercomputer but doesn't know how to get it to run efficiently on this (slightly older) supercomputer".
What is this based on? I've had 2 checks in 19 years of working privately, including contracting for 15 of those, many of which were outside the UK. Nobody in the chain, not HR, hiring managers or recruiters are incentivized to examine a candidate deeply once they've been accepted for a role, and for contracting HR rarely even enters the picture.
In both cases where a check was carried out, it was for a company I could not recommend working for regardless of income. One of these resulted in the only time I have needed a solicitor to ensure timely payments. From this angle failing DBS sounds like it might be a blessing in disguise for OP
On the strictest interpretation it isn't everyone and only applies to a few roles.
However just like other compliance it tends to be applied by financial firms in a risk-averse maximal approach rather than a minimal approach. So it's not uncommon for background checks to be applied to all staff at a company or who provide services to such a company.
I don't agree with such maximal interpretation of the compliance rules, but this is how it happens and having that conversation with HR during interviewing is just going to get you excluded.
The original poster likely wants to avoid US travel too... given that it will require a visa due to moral torpitude.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/turpitu...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude
Turpitude: very immoral behaviour; from Latin turpitūdō (ugliness). Not a word I was familiar with - adding this comment for others.
That they do not consistently enforce at time of entry is luck on your part in that entry instance, but either way they now have the ability to freely deny entry forever due to you not following their rules.
Sucks to be you now, the US system does not believe in rehabilitation and if you've been arrested you need a visa. You are not entitled to use the visa waiver program that exists between the UK and US and allows visa-less movement with only an ESTA.
If you want to visit the US in the future, or your career requires such visits... I suggest applying for a B1/B2 visa, if they think you're no risk they may even grant you a multi-year multi-visit one. If they think you're too risky they'll only grant a single timed visit visa, or you'll be fully declined.