Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?
I know there are probably plenty of people on HN who have gone through the same. Reflecting back on your experiences, what are the sensible things to do next? Aside from continuing to listen to the aforementioned healthcare professionals, that is.
Some questions I'm wondering about, specifically:
- Should I tell my boss and/or team? Should I tell them right away, or wait until I know what other steps I want to take? What should I expect their reactions to be?
- Should I take time off? How much? Or should I try to work reduced hours? I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if any) and in the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do anyway. I don't think running out of things to do would be any better for my health than continuing as-is. I've been there before and I don't handle boredom well.
- If I continue working, is there something in my working environment I should try to change? Think of senior engineer in a typical DevOps-y SaaS startup.
- Is there anything specific to working in tech and burning out that I should know about? I feel like this isn't exactly rare.
276 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 355 ms ] threadThis was a huge issue for me over the last year. It has made a huge impact to my work life to finally have activities outside of work I enjoy doing again.
https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http://id.who.int/icd/e...
For comparison depression is "depressed mood or diminished interest in activities occurring most of the day, nearly every day during a period lasting at least two weeks accompanied by other symptoms such as difficulty concentrating, feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt, hopelessness, recurrent thoughts of death or suicide, changes in appetite or sleep, psychomotor agitation or retardation, and reduced energy or fatigue."
https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int...
That's a description of most of my career. However, as long as they keep paying me well, it doesn't matter that much if I'm burned out or not - the money keeps coming in either way, and stash grows every month. I've never been fired either, so it looks like my performance while burned out is still enough to meet expectations.
I have family telling me to "just sleep more" as if i wouldn't do that if it was in my control.
I'm sorry about your situation but I believe most people can sleep 10+ hours if they want, under the right conditions.
Your lack of hobbies is probably directly related to this. I'm not sure how many hours you're working but have they led you to trim your free time?
Don't let yourself work overtime, and try to find something you love to do instead of work. Reading, exercising, anything. Commit to loving yourself everyday.
If you can, take some vacation when your comfortable.
In the past when I've experienced burnout, I didn't get over it by powering through it. Taking time off without filling the void with something meaningful also wasn't the answer for me. I wanted to work and to stay busy, but I needed to find a problem that I could latch on to and be truly interested in. Since I enjoy learning, trying new patterns and new tools was usually enough for me. There was one past episode of burnout where I simply had to find a new company because nothing that company did was exciting to me anymore.
Good luck.
Exercise, get outside once a day, get a daily routine in place, sleep better
I know it sounds frivolous, but the massage will work like a magic pill on you right now. There's been some research on it – but basically persistent stress makes your body tense, and then even if your mental stress is gone, your body's tenseness keeps you on fight or flight mode. You shouldn't make any decisions in this mode.
A 60 minute massage will untangle this stiffness and put you on the right mindset to make the best next decisions.
About 7 years ago I got a massage and went to a store in a location that usually caused me a ton of stress due to the driving and the parking and how overcrowded the store gets. After the massage I did not experience any stress; 0, none, zip, zilch. My muscles were completely relaxed and had 0 stress in them.
At that moment I realized that stress doesn't cause tightness, but tightness causes stress, for me. Relaxed muscles relaxes my mind.
That's the burnout speaking. I suspect you might feel the same way even if the pandemic was completely over. Getting yourself on the path to recovery will help with this, and you'll be amazed at all the hobbies you can do (even in a pandemic) that sound interesting and worthwhile.
Best of luck, I hope you're able to get into a situation that allow you to recover and find some satisfaction in your current career in the future.
If you're at severe burnout, which it's definitely sounding like, consider taking a leave of absence (LOA). Time can vary between a couple of weeks to a couple of months, YMMV. If you can afford the LOA, rediscovering things you love is going to help.
Places to start thinking about investing some time are a) physical activity, like weightlifting or hiking; b) learning something new, ideally from a different stack than you've been working on; c) trying to spend more time on hobbies to see if you can find a sense of satisfaction in creating or completing a task, particularly if you can form social bonds at the same time. That said, if you're not good at handling boredom and don't think that having time to do _whatever you want_ is going to be helpful, ease into this step.
If you do stay at your job, try to find different responsibilities. Have a good conversation with your boss (if you can) where you explain that you need to rotate to a new responsibility where you can have a greater sense of mastery and control. Being able to determine your own success and failure can help recover from the hopelessness that goes with burnout.
No matter what, take the time to actively invest in self-care. Not "I'm sitting on the couch" self-care, exercising and eating better self-care. Staying up late learning something you've always wanted to self-care. Painfully changing your life so tomorrow is better self-care.
Good luck, and PM if you want to get to talk. I'm just finishing an LOA for burnout myself, and it's been a trip.
In an ideal scenario you would quit working entirely to focus on your health, but I’m guessing this is not an option.
You need to focus on the body first. The most important is sleep, but that is also difficult to address directly, so it’s best to focus on diet and exercise. You’ll likely have to design your entire day and week around these two things.
Try the Whole 30 program first. It’s a way of eating that eliminates inflammation causing foods. DONT TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT! Weight loss is important for overall health but you’ll usually sleep worse during a weight loss phase. That said you’ll probably lose weight naturally anyway.
Give up the alcohol for 30 days and consider weening off caffeine at some point since both of these will mess up your sleep.
For exercise, you just have to find something enjoyable enough to do at least 3x per week. It really doesn’t matter what it is as long as it makes you a bit sore. Consistency is key - don’t overdo it by jumping into something like CrossFit.
Lastly, WHY are you burning yourself out? Are you afraid of failing? Afraid of being broke? Afraid of being perceived as a loser? The WHY is a spiritual problem and may be addressed through meditation (slow), psychotherapy (slower), or psychedelics (fast but more risk). Until you resolve the WHY of your burnout you’ll likely remain stuck in this cycle.
1. Don't do any addiction. Alcohol, Psychedelics nothing. That's another spiral you won't be able to climb out from.
2. Taking some time off is the easiest way to figure out your l life. You will soon be able to realise your priorities in life. I'd say 2 months is good enough a time. But the most important thing is to not attempt doing any work stuff during the time out period.
> They are generally considered physiologically safe and do not lead to dependence or addiction. [0]
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4813425/
[1] https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/how-to-cure-burnout
[2] https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/dr-randi-raymond
Edit: add references [1] and [2]
"People abusing mushrooms can become dependent by believing that they need the drug to maintain a sense of enlightenment or happiness."
https://www.addictioncenter.com/drugs/hallucinogens/psilocyb...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29098666/
[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generally
The way this is written means:
They are generally considered physiologically safe.
They do not lead to dependence or addiction.
Also, you did not quote 'generally' in your response (the one with underscores).
> They do not lead to dependence or addiction.
Thanks for making my point.
Edit: Also thanks for the downvote. Being that you then proceeded to _not_ counter me with any real arguments, it also helps to make my point.
Edit 2: (this will be a bit longer)
I think I see what you mean, and I apologise if my writing and understanding was not entirely precise.
You're pointing out that the NCBI link I provided (an actual scientific study) specifically states that they _do not_ cause addiction or dependence, whereas the one you linked from Addiction Center (who seems to sell addiction treatments) with no links to studies says that they _might_ happen.
Despite my now corrected lack of precision, I'm still missing your point.
My point is that psychological addiction is a concern for burnt out people looking for a solution, or people who quit their job and have time to fill. Psychological addiction is different than chemical addiction.
It seems there's an irreconcilable difference in the definitions of addiction that we are using. I think those reading have enough info to view the arguments and make up their minds.
Yes, I understand that.
Do you have any actual evidence that this happens with psychedelics though?
My personal experiences have shown me a very different picture. After a trip I don't want to touch the thing with a long pole for days or weeks, and that's the same I've seen with other people, including some heavy party-goers who are definitely addicted chemically and/or psychologically to many other substances and habits.
Sure, those are anecdotes, but so far I haven't seen evidence to the contrary of them. You haven't provided me with any either, except that Addiction Center article with no science backing. They sell addiction treatment, so it's in their business interest that more addiction exists or is purported to exist. Note that I'm not assuming malice on their side. It's probably more likely that given the lack of evidence either way, they decided to lean towards the more conservative side, which also aligns with their business.
This can mean self-medicating if you know what you're doing, but otherwise these days there are professionals qualified to help.
I doubt psychedelics will be used to escape from your issues, but yes - they can make them worse if you're not careful.
Everyone’s journey is different, but depending on where that fear is coming from, I could imagine drastically different next steps.
Personally, therapy has helped me immensely. A lot of my early anxiety about these things stemmed from severe imposter syndrome, and through the years I’ve gained enough confidence in myself to know that my skills are in demand, and survival is likely in the current market.
But if that fear is due to other things - the health of your employer’s business, etc. then a very different course of action might be required.
The difference is whether you’re existing in the grip of that fear or thriving from a place of love.
You could try reading something like “The Mastery of Love” by Don Miguel Ruiz to get a taste, but the healing has to come through the body and nervous system. You can’t will your way through this.
Edit: Important note: The right antidepressant can help!
Can't stress this enough. I've spent the last decade trying to lose weight and failing, always yo-yoing up a little bit higher and losing confidence each time. Consistent diet changes are really freaking hard especially when you're battling other health issue. Aerobic exercise burns a hilariously tiny amount of calories for the effort and eventually it can eat away at motivation.
Setting up a home gym to lift weights and trying to eat healthier rather less has done wonders for my health. ExRx has a lot of information [1] but the gist of it is that a pound of fat burns under 5 calories a day while a pound of lean muscle burns 30 calories a day without exercise and as much as 50 calories a day for up to several days after anaerobic exercise (weight lifting). The maximum grow rate is from half a pound to a pound (for those that won the genetic lottery) of lean muscle a week so in 10 weeks its possible to add 150-300 calories to your basal metabolic rate that requires minimal maintenance compared to on-going dieting. Weight lifting doesn't require that much effort [2] or maintenance, just proper form and equipment, so it's a lot easier to permanently incorporate in a schedule a few times a week than a life long dieting change.
[1] https://exrx.net/FatLoss
[2] https://exrx.net/WeightTraining/Research
Does a treadmill work instead of weight lifting? Curious to know based on your experience.
I can't emphasise this enough, staying interested in doing gym exercise for the sake of fitness alone is not sustainable for most people - and boring even if you can. Exercise is an opportunity to find something physical you enjoy spending your time doing, and this can be as much a mental relief as a physical one. This is similar to how most of us enjoy learning about a technology far more while we have something directly in front of us to apply it to, getting fit and staying fit is really fun when you can apply it.
Remember this does not only mean team sports, there is more to the world than what school PE exposed us to, there will definitely be something out there that interests you. It can also be great for your mental health in general, especially if it involves getting out into nature.
but i started doing manual labor in a creative field, and getting around town using a bike and i'm much better for it.
Consider any of the following they all count:
* Hiking in the woods or parks
* Dancing lessons
* Running, Walking, inline skating, long boarding, bicycling, and really anything remotely similar
* martial arts in a dojo / club
* Strength training doing calisthenics at one of those outdoor gym things.
Keep in mind traditional strength training is great[1] for a number of reasons, but it's not the only way to get exercise.
[1]: dare i say superior due to it's muscle preserving and bone density effects? but getting overly picky about optimality can be a source of burnout in of itself.
I've personally found Rock Climbing to be extremely rewarding in highly varied ways - it is a very mental activity, problem solving, but in a physical and personal way that is not in conflict with relief from a cognitive job. It's physically one of the most balanced activities for the body. It can take you to truly awesome places and make you appreciate nature more. It has many sub styles, some with their own interesting mental challenges and techniques. You get a sense of adventure like no other... it's also just inherently damn fun to do, it's not unreasonable to say we have somewhat evolved for climbing - so it makes sense that we find it fun.
It's also a lot more accessible than it used to be. The easiest way to start would be indoor bouldering gyms (these have a fantastic social element too), and then indoor sports climbing gyms... just remember there is much more to be had from it than plastic, the outdoors awaits.
I can't compare the pricing on climbing gyms to regular ones, because I can't remember the last time I went to a "regular" one, I don't think they are unreasonable but that may depend on the country. Here in the UK the number have grown a lot over the last couple decades so that there is healthy competition between them. Another aspect is that once the climbing gym is a supplement and you can go outdoors, it doesn't feel so pricey.
My biggest bugbear about school PE is the focus on team sports. I know some schools want to build their sports teams, but if there is one goal of PE class it should be ensuring every child finds at least 1 form of exercise they really enjoy.
I’d encourage you to persist in finding something you can get into and stick with. I’ve really got into obstacle course racing events like Tough Mudder and started with the shortest distance - everyone there is helping everyone else through it. Find what works for you.
Do you have any pointers or experience to expand on that point? How to go about it specifically so that it helps move towards a solution? What about combining it with psychotherapy?
As far as should you tell your boss and/or team: my highly sophisticated algorithm for this is, if you were the boss, would you want to be notified? It's not smart to tell the team: it would percolate to the boss in a distorted form anyway, but also it's up to your boss to deal with the issue properly.
I have a todo list of about 6 million things to do before I die so I can't empathize very well with the boredom thing. My instinct though is that it's very good for you to be challenging yourself somehow. If not with a hobby, then maybe something like sports/self defense/meditation would do the trick.
I think you're going through something bigger than it may seem at the moment. Good luck on your journey.
Do you have a family ?
Let's assume your answers are a lot and no.
Just stop. I quit a horrible job in my youth without knowing if I'd make rent next month.
It was worth it,but only because I didn't have any dependents. With a family this is insanely reckless.
This is why fewer of us are having families. There's something in the back of our minds telling us that we're not safe.
It's surprising how much you can do at zero (or almost zero) cost. I never felt like the clock was counting down to get well again which was enormously beneficial psychologically.
Find something to do in your spare time that interests you, something unrelated to your work.
Get out of the house, change your scenery. I find that leaving town, even just for a day, helps a lot. Go camping over night, get off the grid and disconnect. Getting fresh air and a little exercise goes a long way.
Don't discount the value of being bored, you might need to get bored before you figure out what to do with yourself.
It really depends. If your boss is generally a good person he'll be glad to know and try to help you. If he's a shitty person he might use it against you or think less of you. You should know or at least be able to guess which way he should be leaning. Not sure I'd tell the team though, this should be between you and your boss for now, it shouldn't become the company's gossip.
> I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if any) and in the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do anyway.
To me that is telling something. It's quite possible you also have a mild depression going on (and could be that the burnout is exacerbated by it). What I mean is it might be that things aren't as you'd like them to be in other areas of life, which can eventually hurt your job performance since your mental well being isn't great. Keep getting the support you need, be willing to make some changes. Rooting for you.
I'd start by seeing a therapist.
It's nice to have someone to speak with about your issues that can help provide guidance.
I spent better part of a decade working every day I was awake. Started seeing a therapist after working with some truly horrible people who now face serious repercussions for their actions.
Recently, I splurged on some retro game stuff. I spent years ignoring retro gaming. I thought these were relics for immature man children who lived in their parents basement. My wife also hates the look so I had spent years not only turning a blind eye toward them but also putting what I did own since childhood into storage for when we started a family. Once I went down the rabbit hole of some retro games I don't think I'll be looking back. I found that not only are they fun to play but I have a passion for restoring them. I started by re-learning how to repair integrated circuits (I hadn't used a soldering iron in 20 years before this). Now I plan to save as many as I can.
All I'm saying, start by talking to someone who will listen and you can feel comfortable talking with. A therapist was good for me because you pay them to be your confidant. Mental health is like any other part of your body you care for.
I would however absolutely not let any co-workers or representatives of your employer know what you are going through. There is a terrible stigma around mental health and it will be perceived as a disability/weakness by some in a manner that could impact your livelihood.
If you can exercise or do other physical activities like going for a walk. Disconnect completely after work, get a feature phone. A lot of people having burnouts due to being over connected and even more so with remote work.
Walk really slow and try to be in the actual moment.
Do things you’ve been putting off for ever due to feeling burned out. That book that’s been sitting on the shelf for a year, that lego set or doodling book or the guitar you swore you were going to learn.
See people for a coffee, drink or other activity.
Avoiding burnout is often about learning the painful lessons of separating your professional life from your actual life and it’s not an easy task.
We tend to forget to stop and smell the roses.
Mental Health
_____
Get on an anti-anxiety medication if you can / want to. They can be really helpful to take the edge off for a while until you return to normal.
My therapist is the one I info-dump and bitch about work to. I don't have any particularly deep psychological trauma. I just want to pay someone to complain about work to, so they can give me feedback and things to try. It isn't fair to your friends and family to constantly be absorbing your pain.
I learned this the hard way after losing friends because I was "too negative and whiny."
Hobbies
_____
I read a book called "atomic habits" and I liked it a lot.
Basically, when I have a hobby, I track TIME, not "goals." Goals are too nebulous. Time is something I can keep track of easily and more time === more good at hobby. ( Kind-of. It is at least a decent metric to track. )
I picked up guitar, beer making, smoking meat, running, game development, all during the pandemic. I hear you! I just jumped around until I found something that stuck. Don't give up on finding a hobby! But don't stick with you you aren't enjoying.
Work
____
I wouldn't tell your work you are "burned out." People... can suck. And do you really need a bunch of opinions and attention around how stressed out and tired of the job you are? No, not really.
Maybe reach out to individuals privately if you want some support but also: see section 1: Your friends/coworkers are not your therapist.
As for specific reasons... for me it is other people. The work is fine, but dealing with personalities, and boredom, and stress... it gets exhausting.
Try to identify the people who are causing you the most stress and try to interact with them as little as possible. Keep a journal. If they are being outright abusive, write it down in the journal, and eventually you will have something you can present to justify your request to be distanced from them.
I had accumulated (and untouched) vacation time, so I wrapped up anything critical, drove to SFO, got on a plane to Mexico, and stayed for two weeks. I did not bring my laptop. I did nothing but swim, go to the beach, read (physical) novels and have nice meals at restaurants.
Exercise and sunshine pulled me out of a truly devastating spiral; it may not work in the same way for you, but could it hurt?
Good luck: I really feel for you.
wouldn't you have to go back to that and end up in the same situation again?
This stands out to me. If I thought of my work as "typical", I'd ask myself whether what I'm doing is worth my time. Whether it's fulfilling and has purpose. Whether I'm having an impact on the work and whether the work has an impact on whatever problem is being solved. That on its own is enough to cause me feeling burnt out, especially over a multi-month period of time.
Unfortunately, I don't know if a translation to English exists.
[1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B5...