Estonians. There are lots of former communists in Finnish civil service. Many of whom were openly opposing Estonian independence.
Unlike other east European countries Finland did nothing to clean the administration.
They just selected new Minister of Social Services, who was most vile pro-soviet communist in the 1970s.
What is worse, the constitution of Finland is currently interpreted by a former board member of Finnish Communist party, one Dr. Martin Scheisse. So everything goes, Soviet-Style mock lawsuits of MPs and China-Style vaccination passports.
> What is worse, the constitution of Finland is currently interpreted by a former board member of Finnish Communist party, one Dr. Martin Scheisse. So everything goes, Soviet-Style mock lawsuits of MPs and China-Style vaccination passports.
Wow, this is the first time I've ever run into this level of perversion of the truth about Finnish politics anywhere (outside of Twitter).
I assume that by the degrading "Dr. Martin Scheisse" you are referring to Martin Scheinin[1], a professor on international law. While it seems like he does publish some opinions about constitutional law [2] and topics including COVID-19 [3] with a pro-lockdown stance, I don't think he has anything to do with the actual political body responsible for interpretating the Finnish constitution [4] - he's certainly not listed as a member.
The Perustuslakivaliokunta has actually taken quite a limited stance on COVID-19 things, e.g. blocking the proposed curfew measures in spring 2021, and the (currently on hold, presumably to be entirely scrapped or become optional) Finnish COVID-19 passport scheme is not on the strictest side of even EU standards (e.g. artists and staff working at the venues are excluded).
Not sure what exactly you're referring to with the soviet-style mock lawsuits, there have been many politically relevant lawsuits going on recently. But it does seem like you've picked up some delusions somewhere, and may want to refrain from spreading such false truths.
> I don't think he has anything to do with the actual political body responsible for interpretating the Finnish constitution [4] - he's certainly not listed as a member.
The term "anything" is not quite accurate, based on just a quick Google it does seem like Martin Scheinin has been the author of some expert opinions on a variety of topics as taken into consideration by the Perustuslakivaliokunta. But "the constitution of Finland is currently interpreted by [...] Martin Scheinin" is a fairly misleading way of stating this - the Perustuslakivaliokunta does the interpretation.
Re the "a former board member of Finnish Communist party" part, this also has a grain of truth to it, but quoting the quoted official police report [1] (published by an news site explicitly affiliated with the political party associated with the defendant in this case), while they were indeed a member of the communist part committee in the 1980's, they have since explicitly disavowed this and changed their stance.
> They just selected new Minister of Social Services, who was most vile pro-soviet communist in the 1970s.
While this also has a grain of truth to it related to Aki Linden's very early political career as a student [2] (published by a news media associated with a competing political party), I would consider this excessive hyperbole. Finnish politics today are not the same as they were in the 1970s, even if some of the politicians have grown up during those years.
Estonians are one of Finland's closest allies, they have no reason to spy on Finland. What competing interests would they be spying for? What use would they make of such information? And why would they spy on diplomats when their foreign policy is 99% aligned and within the EU framework they basically agree a common policy and rarely vote differently? If anything i could imagine them spying on admin/politicians, but there's no gain for EE tool spy on FI diplomats. But even that makes no sense.
I think you win the 'jump to conclusions' award for the week. An evidence free accusation based on nothing but the weirdest reading of the Finnish-Estonian diplomatic relationships.
> Unlike other east European countries Finland did nothing to clean the administration.
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Finland belonged to the Soviet sphere, like "other east European countries". It never did. Demanding that it "clean the administration" after the fall of "Communism" / the Soviet Union is as moronic as demanding the same of, say, Luxembourg or Spain.
"You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Finland belonged to the Soviet sphere"
Finnish here. In the 1970's Finnish political system was quite heavily listening on what Kremlin had to say. There is a good term - "finlandsierung" which means appeasing the Soviets was a prominent feature of the politics of the time.
Most of the political elite, with some exceptions, paid fealty to the Soviet embassy.
Close ties to East-Germany were also nurtured.
As there are quite many powerful people still in active public life, who likely were in the soviet pockets, nobody wants to talk about this that much.
There is a very well known list of likely Stasi collaborator s given by West German Intelligence Service to the Finnish Security Police (Supo) in 1990 that is declare secret.
This is not conspiracy theory. It's all quite well documented and understood. The details must wait for future historians to dig out once the last generation of Soviet era politicians has passed away.
One has to realize that while considered a first world country, Finland is tiny and capital poor, with over thousand kilometer land border with what is now Russia, and coastline that guards the approach to St. Petersburg harbour. The weakness to influence is obvious, as well as the interest of the other party to influence events.
That said the top most message is probably a bit hyperbolic. But the assessment is probably correct, that there is some bad blood between Estonians who lived through the soviet era and some people in the current Finnish administration.
Kiitos, tiesin jo mitä suomettuminen on. Se on kuitenkin ihan toinen asia kuin neuvostosfääriin kuuluminen; se syntyi nimenomaan välttääkseen siitä. IV-postaja tuntui puhuvan jälkimmäisestä. Mahdollisesti hän, kuten moni ulkomaalaisia, ei edes tiedä suomettumisen olemassaolosta. (Siksi kai varmuuden vuoksi kerroit siitä?)
Joka tapauksessa kaikki tuo oli epämuodollista, "tämä vaan on maan tapa"-perusteella -- ei osana "järjestelmästä." Joten IV:n kehotus romuttaa ja uudelleenrakentaa "järjestelmää" ei päde.
En Anglais:
Thank you, I know what Finlandisation is. But that's still something totally different than belonging to the Soviet sphere; it cam about precisely in the attempt to avoid that. The GP seemed to be talking about the latter. Possibly they, like many non-Finns, didn't even know of the concept of Finlandisation. (That was why you told them about it, just in case, wasn't it?)
Anyway: That was all run informally, on a "that's just how it's done" basis -- not built into "the system." So the GP's exhortation to scrap and rebuild "the system" is irrelevant.
13 comments
[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 45.7 ms ] threadWas it the Fins themselves, keeping tabs on their diplomats? Hard to believe.
Was it their belligerent neighbour Russia, who were not supposed to have access to Pegasus? Hmm
Who else? Swedes stealing sauna secrets?
Unlike other east European countries Finland did nothing to clean the administration.
They just selected new Minister of Social Services, who was most vile pro-soviet communist in the 1970s.
What is worse, the constitution of Finland is currently interpreted by a former board member of Finnish Communist party, one Dr. Martin Scheisse. So everything goes, Soviet-Style mock lawsuits of MPs and China-Style vaccination passports.
Wow, this is the first time I've ever run into this level of perversion of the truth about Finnish politics anywhere (outside of Twitter).
I assume that by the degrading "Dr. Martin Scheisse" you are referring to Martin Scheinin[1], a professor on international law. While it seems like he does publish some opinions about constitutional law [2] and topics including COVID-19 [3] with a pro-lockdown stance, I don't think he has anything to do with the actual political body responsible for interpretating the Finnish constitution [4] - he's certainly not listed as a member.
The Perustuslakivaliokunta has actually taken quite a limited stance on COVID-19 things, e.g. blocking the proposed curfew measures in spring 2021, and the (currently on hold, presumably to be entirely scrapped or become optional) Finnish COVID-19 passport scheme is not on the strictest side of even EU standards (e.g. artists and staff working at the venues are excluded).
Not sure what exactly you're referring to with the soviet-style mock lawsuits, there have been many politically relevant lawsuits going on recently. But it does seem like you've picked up some delusions somewhere, and may want to refrain from spreading such false truths.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scheinin
[2] https://perustuslakiblogi.wordpress.com/category/kirjoittaja...
[3] https://www.iltalehti.fi/koronavirus/a/6a55281c-4f12-46d6-be...
[4] https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/valiokunnat/perustuslakivaliokun...
The term "anything" is not quite accurate, based on just a quick Google it does seem like Martin Scheinin has been the author of some expert opinions on a variety of topics as taken into consideration by the Perustuslakivaliokunta. But "the constitution of Finland is currently interpreted by [...] Martin Scheinin" is a fairly misleading way of stating this - the Perustuslakivaliokunta does the interpretation.
Re the "a former board member of Finnish Communist party" part, this also has a grain of truth to it, but quoting the quoted official police report [1] (published by an news site explicitly affiliated with the political party associated with the defendant in this case), while they were indeed a member of the communist part committee in the 1980's, they have since explicitly disavowed this and changed their stance.
> They just selected new Minister of Social Services, who was most vile pro-soviet communist in the 1970s.
While this also has a grain of truth to it related to Aki Linden's very early political career as a student [2] (published by a news media associated with a competing political party), I would consider this excessive hyperbole. Finnish politics today are not the same as they were in the 1970s, even if some of the politicians have grown up during those years.
[1] https://www.suomenuutiset.fi/halla-aho-muistutti-tutkintapyy...
[2] https://www.verkkouutiset.fi/nyt-han-on-sdpn-ehdokas-1975-ra...
Why spread such nonsense?
Denmark helped the US to spy on German politicians whilst the UK was hacking Belgian telcos…
Everyone is spying on everyone the question is always about their ability to collect information not their will.
There isn’t a single country on the planet that given a magic button to tap every phone of even their closest ally would not press it.
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Finland belonged to the Soviet sphere, like "other east European countries". It never did. Demanding that it "clean the administration" after the fall of "Communism" / the Soviet Union is as moronic as demanding the same of, say, Luxembourg or Spain.
Finnish here. In the 1970's Finnish political system was quite heavily listening on what Kremlin had to say. There is a good term - "finlandsierung" which means appeasing the Soviets was a prominent feature of the politics of the time.
By it's system it was politically quite stagnant as it had the same man Kekkonen as president for 25 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urho_Kekkonen
Most of the political elite, with some exceptions, paid fealty to the Soviet embassy.
Close ties to East-Germany were also nurtured.
As there are quite many powerful people still in active public life, who likely were in the soviet pockets, nobody wants to talk about this that much.
There is a very well known list of likely Stasi collaborator s given by West German Intelligence Service to the Finnish Security Police (Supo) in 1990 that is declare secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiitinen_list
This is not conspiracy theory. It's all quite well documented and understood. The details must wait for future historians to dig out once the last generation of Soviet era politicians has passed away.
One has to realize that while considered a first world country, Finland is tiny and capital poor, with over thousand kilometer land border with what is now Russia, and coastline that guards the approach to St. Petersburg harbour. The weakness to influence is obvious, as well as the interest of the other party to influence events.
That said the top most message is probably a bit hyperbolic. But the assessment is probably correct, that there is some bad blood between Estonians who lived through the soviet era and some people in the current Finnish administration.
Joka tapauksessa kaikki tuo oli epämuodollista, "tämä vaan on maan tapa"-perusteella -- ei osana "järjestelmästä." Joten IV:n kehotus romuttaa ja uudelleenrakentaa "järjestelmää" ei päde.
En Anglais:
Thank you, I know what Finlandisation is. But that's still something totally different than belonging to the Soviet sphere; it cam about precisely in the attempt to avoid that. The GP seemed to be talking about the latter. Possibly they, like many non-Finns, didn't even know of the concept of Finlandisation. (That was why you told them about it, just in case, wasn't it?)
Anyway: That was all run informally, on a "that's just how it's done" basis -- not built into "the system." So the GP's exhortation to scrap and rebuild "the system" is irrelevant.