Ask HN: Neurodiversity/ADHD Friendly Companies
In hindsight ADHD helped me to get into current position. Being constantly bored, high energy, positive-minded solution and tool seeker is often good thing in times of crisis. When things go stale and there are no things to fix but only boring forms remains it's usually mortal battle with burnout, procrastination, self-doubt. One which usually ends with me quitting due to burnout or - rarely - getting kicked off because the next more boring thing took longer than anticipated.
Right now I'm on hiatus since couple last couple of weeks, but lack of direction and purpose is awful and with every morning I feel fires of restlessness growing.
Today I read recruitment ad about neurodiversity program which - supposedly - caters people with different neurodivergencies. Those were US on-site positions though and I'm in EU.
So getting to the point: Do you know / can recommend companies with neurodiversity programs?
For myself obviously I'm looking for remote or EU companies (with relocation) but even if you know something that's not in the region please feel free to contribute - maybe someone else looking will make use of it.
Obvious throwaway. Some half-truths embedded.
223 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 349 ms ] threadWhat are you looking for specifically? What does a neurodiversity program look like at a company? What, to you, makes a company neurodiversity-friendly?
Describing the "perfect" organization for me that would probably be company that allowed me to switch between projects and technologies quickly while having "cleanup crew" in form of QA or an introvert who would be happy when not bothered.
The best employers/clients I ever had were the ones who had the silent "I sit and cut all the loose things" type of person, that allowed us to have perfect synergy, as I was frontman dealing with meetings, arguing on architecture doing the high-level designs and they were working on things that I missed (and there were plenty). I always - however - made sure they got recognition, both directly (assuring that if it wasn't for them I would progress at all) and in team environment.
Thus I think that if someone would be able to recognize traits that come with ADHD they would both help me feel better about stuff and could also juice more out of me (which I personally love, since I thrive in hard, legacy code with hundreds of engineering and business problems and IT is something I choose very consciously). This also comes with the fact, that someone has to recognize downtime and help me manage it, as ADHD is prone to obsessions and burnout, thus I quite often end up working 12h at 8h job while forgetting to go for lunch.
In summary - while I don't know it's either company that knows what they're doing and have a specialists for that, or company that would like to work with ADHD people.
It's not all roses of course. Happy to share my experience, if useful.
International: https://www.specialisterne.com/
US: https://www.us.specialisterne.com/
Specialisterne Foundation is an international, award winning social enterprise setting the “gold standard” for neurodiversity employment. Specialisterne was founded in 2004 by Thorkil Sonne after Sonne’s young son was diagnosed with the disorder, when he realized we should focus on the ability of neurodiversity: attention to detail, high accuracy, innovative thinking, loyalty and honesty rather than the “disability”.
I'm a huge mental health advocate and I've been such for years (I worked with a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists when doing deep interpersonal training for business purposes and I built a lot of trust toward field) and I've been working constantly with therapists, have friends who are psychiatrists etc.
Yet no one, at any point suggested this might be ADHD because:
- ADHD has a lot of bad press (as something that is result of bad parenthood - which is false, that's genetics)
- ADHD in adults is somewhat new (where I live there all the meds are prescription only for children with note that they shouldn't be used for adults)
- ADHD adults are either successful (because they overcame hardships and are perceived as very interesting people in general) so they don't seek help or very miserable (dropping jobs, partners etc.) - they can't afford diagnosis and treatment
- ADHD in women is severely underdiagnosed (because it's attributed to hormonal mood swings)
- ADHD is often used as a joke, so people treat it as joke
- ADHD often gives symptoms that might be diagnosed as substance addiction, bi-polar personality, neuroticism, anger issues etc., people treat this for years and it doesn't help
- If you get in the wrong basket it's really hard to get out of it (I was working with different set of issues)
And that was for more then a decade. I decided to diagnose myself with specialist only after lately I couldn't focus on anything absolutely at all. I had weeks were I didn't do anything I really wanted - that wasn't normal and I went to a huge stretch to find out what that was.
My guess is that procrastination and burnout are signs that work in our society is just not a good fit for our mental needs (see also immense popularity of video games, which provide "fake work" that is closer to what we need). I suspect there were no procrastination, burnout, ADHD and other mental afflictions among hunters-gatherers.
I think that it is quite common for software engineers to have a feeling of being badly attuned to their work environments and then misattribute that as a problem that lies within themselves rather than their work environments.
I even feel that some management practices common to our field are basically a form of psychological abuse, akin to gaslighting, which provide to the employee a false reality where everything that goes wrong is their own fault. For example yearly reviews and institutionalized continuous feedback cultures tend to create a lot of salience around what an employee is doing wrong and should do differently in the eyes of management, while seldom allowing any iota of attention to fall on questions about what the company is doing wrong and should do differently in the eyes of the employee.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was something that ended up actually causing mental disorders in employees. This is pure speculation, but our field does have very poor stats on mental health [1]. A competing explanation is that our field is attractive to people with pre-existing problems and therefore draws in people with mental disorder, rather than creating mental disorder. Or maybe it's a combination of both.
[1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demog...
koncha_slizga_0b (at) icloud.com
Or sports, or hobbies in general.
I'm thinking now of how f-MRI is notoriously difficult to get right in methodological terms [1] while at the same time providing an all-to-convenient path for psychologists wanting to add credibility to their claims by tying them into physiological manifestation. I know next to nothing about the field though, so who knows. ...just expressing baseline scepticism I guess.
[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/fmri-gets-slap-in-the-...
Organisms are analog. Why would you expect marginally symptomatic brains to be clearly distinct?
It's very easy for companies to set up something like this for the sake of appearances, I would advise against selecting your employer based on this.
But keep in mind one thing. If I go and say that I wrote at least one application in (probably more but, let's size it down) in 25 different languages people usually think I'm a con. I can't say I use the technology X and I'm expert on it neither because I'm going to be asked about some obscure thing that I don't care and it's the end.
What I always find the funniest is that the interviewers always sees the worst of me during interviews. Anxiety of evaluation is often breaking me. Most of the high profile interviews I had followed the schema: get nervous -> can't sleep -> sleep 1h/night prior to test/interview -> after 2 interviews forget basic math due to exhaustion -> uneven performance -> bye
However I'd like to be transparent about it, so that I can get a partner and feel better and deliver (as even though I procrastrinate it's not something I want - I'd love to deliver 100% of the time), so I help you, you help me.
And I do have a rather good rep sheet, thus throwaway. I believe people would feel cheated if they'd know otherwise.
I've done much better with early- and mid-stage startups with lots of problems to be handled and all the encouragement in the world to go after them, even without these "neurodivergence programs". Of course, you're getting into another world of life problems (e.g. these companies rarely have parental leave worth mentioning) but you can usually work around the edges.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! You hit the nail on the head. I'm currently working at such a company and you're 100% right. And the bureaucratic nature of it all drives me pretty mental. It's not a good environment for me at all. I'm going back to a smaller company.
One thing that came to mind is contract/freelance work. Go to a contracting agancy and tell them you want to work on 3-6 month contracts. I'm currently in the process of doing this. I hope few things come out of this.
1) my brain stays engaged
2) my happniess increases
3) my savings & free time grow ( as contractors get paid a bit more ) and can afford more time off between projects
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/desolate
TBH I had to check it though.
This is the part that didn't work so well in my experience. With each project I was at first in "working" mode, then in "time off" mode (which usually meant working on personal stuff for free), and then suddenly in "need to find a new paying project asap" panic mode when the savings were running out. With each next project my financial situation had to be worse in order to successfully trigger panic mode, so I quickly started to look for something longer-term instead.
must be nice to be able to take a break and not have your entire life fall apart.
Amphetamines help correct for a lack of dopamine and norepinephrine, by helping then stay around longer in the brain.
It often likened to wearing glasses.
There’s non-stimulant medication, and multiple versions of stimulant medication that’s used because it doesn’t affect everyone quite the same way.
In neurotypical brains, or rather brains without a deficit of dopamine and norepinephrine, stimulants result in too much hanging around.
Instead of going from (to use relative numbers) -9 to -3..0 (like I often feel), a neurotypical brain goes from 0 to 10. It also has tends to have a calming effect on those with ADHD, whereas for neurotypicals it can push you heart rate to above 150.
For a number of people I know the affect is small, for me it has been profound. Imagine going from 70% packet loss inside your brain to 0-5%.
Not wired just normal. Only for the first 3 decades of my life, I didn’t know this normal existed.
I never tried to convince anyone that it is their fault for whatever problems they encountered in life and sadly one of them died by an overdose in an early age. Perhaps ADHD contributed to their lifestyle of choice, perhaps not.
I am not impossible to convince that I am wrong, I have just never seen any evidence for it (I haven't really searched for it though). AFAIK ADHD is a disorder that we just don't know that much about and maybe it has a biological function that has been positive in the development of mankind.
As I stated, I am not a doctor tho and maybe there is loads of evidence for it in which I am not aware about but frankly I don't care much one way or the other. It's not an issue that I care about that much and I just wanted to share my take since one of my exes was completely convinced that I had it. I know that people with ADHD can be very successful and I don't think people should think less of themselves because of some diagnosis.
Please explain how I made the lives of my friends harder. By being their friend? You know nothing about me or my life. Being unfriendly doesn't convince anyone, you're just as much of an example of it as I am.
I just shared my thoughts since I at least have experience of it and if you disagree that's completely fine by me. I don't understand the sentiment today that you're not allowed to have opinions on stuff unless you're a scientist. It is imho impossible to be well read upon all things in life, sometimes all you have is anecdotes and experience.
If it hasn't affected your career (or your personal life etc.) in a negative way in the slightest you simply don't have it—the last D in ADHD is essential.
And yet there are things that seems not problematic but then they are. Relationships might be a problem because it gets boring much faster and also some people exhibit all-or-nothing. It's either full obsession or absolute ignorance.
Yet we all know that premature optimization is the root of all evil.
It is my opinion that it hasn't affected me in a negative way since I am satisfied with my life and I have had other issues that have had a much greater negative affect on my life.
I don't think you should chose a company or career based on a disease or a disorder. If you can live with it, which I think most can that have diagnosed ADHD, you could overcome whatever issues come up and still be successful.
I'll even give one practical example, I am usually all over the place and in the tech field I've used that to read up and learn a lot of different languages, tools etc making my skillset in tech very broad which have helped me tremendously in my career. I have a hard time to stick with one programming language and is never satisfied with one thing and switch back and forth on everything. That is both a negative thing and a positive one. I have a (really) hard time sticking to one thing and seeing it through but with tools like todolists and communities like WIP it makes it just a bit easier even if I always have the urge to pick up something else and restarting everything.
good for you i guess but i've spent enough of my life self-flagelating, pretending everything is my personal failing thanks.
quite thankful i can ask for help, be heard and see improvement.
People today seem to read too much into a small statement and immediately creates a straw man that they later attack in the response.
I am sorry if you have diagnosed ADHD and it has affected your life negatively. I hope and believe that you may overcome your issues whatever they may be. It is great if you can ask for help and see improvement from it.
The society is structured in a way that makes it easier for some types of people to succeed but it doesn't mean that people who doesn't fit that model can't or that it's something wrong with them. That is what I meant by my initial comment but it is clear that it wasn't how people here read it.
Maybe it exists and is a real disorder, perhaps I even have it. I don't care either way and I try not to let it affect me or my life.
Fuck you too, though.
Because you keep using language like "maybe it exists and is a real disorder".
There's no "maybe".
All these conditions represent something real going on, even if the currently used terms aren't precise. Much as celiac disease was considered a general bowel complaint by pre-1850s doctors before being eventually discovered, I think with ADHD we'll see more discrete conditions being discovered and understood too (e.g. a specific sub-condition that reduces the transport of dopamine in the brain, say). But, for now, ADHD is the term we've got to work with.
I wrote my comment pretty hastily and couldn't articulate well enough what I thought about the subject. Luckily people like you exists that can understand my shitty written comment and fine tune it to perfection.
Even if I have it and would get a diagnose from my doctor, I don't think it would change my life for better or for worse so what's the point?
i had a chat with the ceo of the charity when i got diagnosed to see if i could help and he is one of the few people i've spoken to in the space that is actively considering adhd in the workplace.
my favourite parts are:
- before criticising timeliness, ask if timeliness is critical to the role. if it isn't, have a policy of flexible time, make it ok to make up lateness later. if it is, find ways to make it less so with scheduling and partnering
- hot desking / open offices: make provisions for people to have quiet and uninterrupted work environments. perhaps that is alternate office space, providing noise cancelling headphones.
- meeting timeliness: fully integrate calendar and reminder systems. for many with adhd something not in the calendar may aswell not exist.
there are loads more but most of the key point boil down to: stop immediately thinking that every time someone doesn't meet your expectations, that it's a personal failure of theirs. start considering how the environment (physical, social, technological, conceptual) might be an impediment to them. start questioning your assumptions around what is "actually" necessary for a role and what you think is necessary.
my personal addition to this is: lots of the ways in which i disappoint people ultimately derive from an innate fear of disappointing people. the irony is not lost on me. the answer, ive found, is to create for myself an environment in which a) my colleagues can separate their disappointment in my actions/ outcomes from me. b) where i can communicate my issues / worries as and when they arrive without fear.
my favourite one has been telling people that a particular task will be far to boring for me to do alone and being able to partner up with someone else to get it done. or that asking me to remember to do something in prep for a meeting is a bad idea and to either pop it straight into my calendar, do it now or make some time during the meeting to do it. that last one is basically the amazon meeting agenda policy where the start of every meeting is reading the notes for the meeting, it's adhd dream.
i am reminded to leave this caveat: yes, these are problems we all face, the questions is: do the problems cause a material impact on your life (lost jobs, failed relationships (love/friends), missed opportunities, states of being that you cant escape). the difference between having adhd and not is whether the problems cause disorder in your life currently, and have done so for much of your life.
1]: https://adhduk.co.uk/adhd-and-work/
From what I see the worst there is seems to be "you can do this anytime you like". That means never, because an ADHDer, helpful as they typically are will be busy from now on until eternity with whatever seems to be more urgent.
Some ADHD-ers are amazing at meeting deadlines as long as there is one at a time and they are somewhat realistic.
I definitely have my own issues but I try to present a standard reliable interface outward, hiding my weaknesses and instead encourage people to let me help them using my strong sides.
It's a bit off topic, but this is so important for parenting, let alone running a company with employees.
Of course this isn't an option for everyone, but starting your own business might be worth considering.
Neurodivergent-friendliness is extremely broad, but generally, yes, being less of a dick to people who can't help being the way they are is always good :)
what a fantastic description
If you think starting a company/freelancing is right for you, by all means do it. But if you have had multiple failed jobs already because of your ADHD then think long and hard about giving yourself a job that arguably requires more executive function than a regular day job.
Same. Was absolutely not for me. Some ADHDers go this route successfully, and especially if you can hire an assistant to handle some of the tasks that require more executive function, but there's plenty of us for whom it will just be a disaster. I think it's important for anyone thinking of going this route to give it a try and find if they're one of the ones who it does suit, but have a clear criteria that will allow you to evaluate how it's going for you and trigger an exit in a timely fashion if need be.
- Consulting/contracting (not freelance as it creates uncertainty and that could lead to stress)
- Design agencies (Front End/Design Technologist)
- Advertising Agencies who have a larger variety of projects (Technologist)
Hope that helps.
An example job I searched is based in Madrid: https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/jobs/view/2908478547
ADHD in adults is somewhat new and some specialist either don't know or downplay it so keep that in mind. I'd suggest getting to the ADHD Adult specialist/clinic in the area. Depending on the country it might take short or long time to get diagnosed (for myself it took around 6 weekly 1.5h meetings, tests and family interviews), but I know this might vary depending on where you live.
I basically diagnosed her with ADHD (no specialist) we found out someone else already did before me but they never looked into it (mostly because you can barely mix meds for bipolar and adhs)
So essentially we got her a ADHS specialist who confirmed my idea and gave her ritalin.
Totally new person. It's 100% her, not 30-50% her depending on the day. They just started to even stop other medications to focus on ADHD more.
Point is: Yes it's somewhat new, and yes it likely would help a lot of people.
I too have ADD but I don't like amphetamines so often. I essentially went the way to turn my life upside down to build my own environment I enjoy to work in.
ADHD isn't necessarily "hyperactivity" neither, sometimes it doesn't show till later years or even ever. Thus there are forms such as ADD, and ADHD in girls/women manifest vastly differently.
It's genetics. Depending on the study ADHD is genetic condition with 70%+ (latest high figure I heard is 77%) chance of passing down the children and around 30% occurrence in the 2nd degree. It's also additive, meaning that if both parents have mild-moderate ADHD the child has chance to hit a neurology jackpot. Based on family story I can exactly tell who have it in my family and it spans quite long. So when for example someone smashes a window or falls and bruises often it's quite often "oh it's always been like this with boys in our family" which is another gate preventing proper diagnosis and management.
The tool's been put together with the WHO:
https://adhduk.co.uk/adult-adhd-screening-survey/
Setting my own scopes and work hours really really helped to get things done. Allowing myself to procastinate for weeks if necessary makes sure one day I will be full of energy for whatever project is waiting for me.
I always struggled in work environments because of imposter syndrome, stress, sometimes a endless cycle of tiredness because I couldn't get enough sleep but a job requires to wake up early.
I sometimes look for remote jobs, but daily standup meetings, fixed online times and stuff like this simply are requiring to much structure I don't, and don't want to, have.
Before I actually quit the thing that helped me most was working less. By only doing a 4 days week I somehow was able to focus way better and enjoy work a lot more. I came late on Monday and took a joker afternoon when I wanted to every week. Still the best work/life balance I ever had in a job
They are putting neurodiversity into practice (they reached out to all ND staff to contribute in this) and whilst may play into the cynical view of lip service if you hold that view, I know they are genuine about this. I also have a fantastic and understanding manager whom is open to making adjustments for me. I would never, ever what to work anywhere else away from the bunch of compassionate people at the Trust. The whole Moto of this Trust is "Safe, Kind, Excellent".
Loosing corporate, capitalistic drivers from your workplace when it comes to ND is a perhaps good start. Not saying all commercial employers or even non-profits don't care, but from my experience I really struggled in that sector in the past.
If you are open to a geographic move, or could get remote work, I would strongly suggest having a look as the NHS Jobs board. https://www.jobs.nhs.uk
Anyway, good luck to you, hope you find happiness and fulfilling work.
https://www.gulbenkian.co.uk/can-eu-citizens-work-in-the-uk-...
Anyway. What you are looking for might be a consultant position, or working in a startup. By the way in my opinion, anything you do will have a bit of boring/unpleasant stuff.
There are lots of people who are struggling with the demands of the workplace -- in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.
I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic.
Maybe I'm missing something, but are there any specific affordances for Neurodiverse people that wouldn't also help everyone else?
- loose track of things more than the typical person
- get distracted by new things more than the average person
- have significantly higher openness to experience
- tend to forget more things
- are more impulsive
So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.
Not necessarily - it could be as simple as a change to the existing structure that benefits everyone to some degree (or at least doesn’t harm others).
I don’t know to what degree - or if - that would be the case, but I strongly suspect it would be.
It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound.
Edit: better fitting analogy.
This is an oversimplification to the point of being misleading.
Scott links to several sources to support his claims and most of them are quite clear that ADHD is a whole bunch of symptoms, a lack of concentration being just one of them. For example:
“DSM-IV field trials used a C-GAS score of ≤60 (which implies impairment requiring specific treatment) and determined that five ADHD symptoms were required to be present to reach this cut-off. To avoid false positives the number was increased to six or more symptoms of inattention or hyperactivity/impulsivity.‘
As an example, some people with ADHD have symptoms where their biggest detrimental issue is hyperfocus - their problem is literally that they concentrate too much rather than too little. Simplifying the condition as “ lower x percentile of the population in the ability to concentrate" discounts these people, as it does the people whose principal problem is hyperactivity or other aspects.
Do you often leave comments like "No. PCR-covid and pulse-oximiter-covid are different diseases. One of them involves having virus genomes in your body and the other one involves having low blood oxygen?"
Talking about measuring conscientiousness means part of the Big 5 model usually. Did you have in mind a different system for assigning people conscientiousness percentiles?
Do you often say COVID-19 really does seem like the lowest x percent of the population by SpO2?
Geez why didn't anyone just tell me this, would have been a lot easier
(Semi-serious question even though /s because topic)
The book "The bullet journal method" from Ryder Carroll was a good introduction to understand how the method works (try to ignore the preachy tone): https://bulletjournal.com/pages/book.
I now have >6 months of journaling, with only a few missing weeks and I can say it has been very helpful to organize my time and mind.
Regarding the type of notebook or pen, it really does not matter, you just need something you enjoy using. I personally use Faber-Castell pens I got for a few cents each (in €) because I like their feeling in my hand, and an idena notebook because they have a lot of pages and I already had a few of them around my house (~6€ each).
It's really not that simple. Squishing it all down to "ability to concentrate" isn't just an oversimplification; it misses the point entirely. Having difficulties with concentration on non-engaging tasks is just one of the possible symptoms.
Just saying.
ADHD Is on a spectrum, which is what I wish people would understand. My diagnosis is in the severe range, and I'm 100% useless without medication. Unable to concentrate or be on time even if my life depended on it.
It's a requirement for diagnosis that it affects multiple domains of your life and not limited to just a single domain, so no.
I realise the point that you're making is that ADHD is a biological condition, and it's likely you're using your wording for emphasis, but I think "physically incapable" is a bit strong.
Both my sister and I have ADHD, I don't take methylphenidate (ritalin) while she does. I'm still capable of being on time and working on things I find boring (though the latter is definitely a real struggle, so I try and make sure I work on interesting things which helps my productivity to no end). My sister, however, says that she really wouldn't be able to cope in a work environment without the meds.
One thing I'd like to point out, that is utterly unrelated to anything you're saying, is that people with ADHD can be hugely productive on things that they find interesting.
There's a severity spectrum (without meds I'm guaranteed to be late and/or distracted by the most random things), and the ability to concentrate is very hard to predict or control - not something that can be relied on for most.
Just sharing some personal thoughts: my main issue is not to be productive, but the lack of control over what I can be productive at. It's the most frustrating feeling ever. You get a new cool idea and can spend 2 weeks being the most productive person ever working on it. But you know it doesn't matter and you don't really care. You can see yourself being obsessed about it but also that you did not decide to find this specific thing motivating/interesting. Then you struggle for months to do very basic stuff you actually want to be productive at.
Obviously I don't know whether you're already on them or not, but if not, maybe try them?
(Obvious caveats of me having no idea about your own situation apply).
I’m in a large city in Germany where access to medication is very strict, so we will see.
I’m in the process of being diagnosed formally since a while now. Since the pandemics psychiatrists are overbooked which results in 6+ months between appointments, so everything is very, very slow :)
How do you think people with ADHD live in countries where adult ADHD is not known? It's hard, but we absolutely can.
It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times.
But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human.
And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all".
I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.
This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility.
The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.
The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.
I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody.
One thing to consider is that affordances that are helpful for everybody may be absolutely essential for neurodiverse folks.Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity.
I'm not sure it's reasonable, or even humanly possible, for employers to intuitively know all the ways they might help every possible employee perform their best.So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.
Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it.
Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work".
"Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD.
Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?".
I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.
I would recommend two things (YMMV). First, use ADHD to your advantage. People with ADHD have tendency to be inquisitive, but easily bored. Because of this I have become a jack of all trades. Although I have my specialty (ML), employers really appreciate that I also able to do Linux administration, create a web app and write a paper.
The second thing would be going freelance. I've done that last year, and it has been a blessing so far. I learned many new skills in new industries. Meeting new people and learning from them has been a valuable experience. The projects can be short enough not to get bored there. As a solid full-stack engineer you can earn better money, and have longer breaks in between.
Personally I thrive in multitasking situations. My mind is always wondering, so situations that have many productive "wander targets" help me from going off and doing irrelevant stuff.
Agree with this 100%. While I've never been formally diagnosed (and have no intention to be), I definitely have some tendencies that align with people who have been formally diagnosed with ADHD. The way I see it, this is a part of me anyways, so I might as well lean into it and milk it for all it's worth, which has led to me being in a similar "jack-of-all-trades" position. If anything, I view it as a tremendous advantage being able to dive into new projects/topics, learn what's interesting about them, then move onto the next shiny thing that catches my eye. With each new thing I get into, I'm able to pull from a vast trove of knowledge spanning many different subjects, which lets me think about old problems in new ways.
Even so, I can see something like ADHD being an issue for people who aren't necessarily driven to succeed beyond a baseline, and are just interested in having a more structured life.
This works as long as that next shiny thing is something that brings value/money or is at least compatible with your career goals. That's often the case in our field of work, but it's not a given.
I'm also a "jack of all trades" and it usually works out great for me, but I'm pretty sure that I was one non-lenient enough manager away from getting fired several times in my life. This wouldn't work so well if I wasn't working in a field that observes workers economy.
Yep, I know that all too well. Took about 4-5 years after high school (and dropping out of several colleges) before I found some sort of traction in my life, otherwise I was just swinging and missing, so to speak, over and over learning new things that often didn't materialize in any substantial progress. Then the shiny new thing was starting a business, which failed, I became homeless for a few months, worked food delivery to get back on my feet, then the shiny new thing for ~1-2 months was marketing, which as it turns out I really needed, now I'm working for a good company.
Another component to all this is probably that I'm just used to the ups and downs at this point and have learned to compensate for them reasonably well enough.
Also going into therapy and getting meds will also help you a bunch. I think that will be more effective than necessarily trying to find the right kind of company. Try looking at this guide about adderal by a psychiatrist: https://lorienpsych.com/2020/10/30/adderall/
She basically said, there's a massive backlog and underfunding of the service, and instead of her referring me to the adult ADHD and autism psychology services directly I should approach a more generic NHS Adult Mental Health service and try to get them to refer me for a diagnosis, or write a letter asking her to. Just seems like a bit of a ringmarole.
She also said that the NHS wouldn't recognise a private diagnosis as they have a financial incentive to lean towards positive diagnoses, and so the NHS wouldn't foot the bill for eg any ADHD meds that would ensue from it.
Is this the experience other people have had, especially in the UK?
Horrible experience with his school though, that’s another story!
Because of that huge backlog I went for a private diagnosis & prescription and then had that prescription transferred to my local GP under what's known as a 'Shared Care Agreement', so my scrip cost ~£110 per year (buy a Prescription Prepayment Certificate or 'season pass').
I know people who've managed to circumvent the waiting list (and private fees) using 'Right to choose' but I understand that can vary depending on your local health authority. Certainly worth exploring though.
As another waiting-list referral, I would consider going the same route but have no idea where best to look (and whether they may have shared care agreements or not).
It's really helpful to see all of these replies from the UK.
I'm in the UK and this is not my experience so far.
You do need to be careful about private diagnosis and the handoff to NHS for treatment - it's true that it's not guaranteed that a private diagnosis will be accepted by the NHS to pick up treatment, but in my experience it's not the case that they will totally refuse to recognise a private diagnosis as you've been told. That may just be the position of the individual you spoke to, rather than a reflection of what you'd find across the board in the UK.
If you go the private route, it will likely help if the private practitioner is also a registered/practicing NHS doctor. If you're considering this, it may be worth speaking to the practitioner about the process for handover of care to the NHS - which they should be able to clarify for you before you spend any money with them!
If you can get a referral from your doctor, I would have a look at Right To Choose and go with someone private like Psychiatry UK as you shouldn't have to pay, the NHS will take the cost of that. (Also a note that paying them money doesn't get you seen any quicker, I've tried asking)
First, in the US, I’m not exactly sure it would be legal. We have the ADA, which basically states that we shouldn’t use what are considered “disabilities,” as a negative. Not sure what it says for positive.
I’m not sure about the EU, but, from my experience, European nations tend to have even stricter rules than the US.
In my case, my own neurodiversity has been a real asset. It’s made me an excellent programmer, and has certainly been key to my basic success.
I was a manager, for 25 years. That’s fairly unusual for aspies, as “people skills” are not often our strong suit.
Which brings me to the work environment. If the company has a management career path that includes promoting aspies into management, it may be great, as I think that it’s important that managers have empathy for their employees, but it might also be a difficult place to work, as we don’t always make the best managers (I feel as if I was an exception, but there were some “out of band” factors in my personal development, that probably made a huge difference –but that’s a story for another day).
The other possibility, is that the managers are all neurotypical, which makes me wonder about the career path.
In my experience, I started at my last company, on the same exact day, as another engineer, who was almost Central Casting for “aspie coder” (I’m a bit “dorky,” but it’s not as obvious, for me). We worked together for 27 years, until they finally closed down our department. For most of that time, I was his boss.
I have no problem admitting that he’s a far better coder and tactician than I ever was, but I have my doubts that he would have been as good a manager. On the other hand, I was pretty much a perfect manager for him, and he thrived in the department. He is now working for a well-known European megacorp, and I hope that they give him the space he needs to work. He’s an amazing engineer, and it was an honor to work with him.
The 2021 Stack Overflow Survey [0] puts ADHD at 8.51% (double the rate in the US [1]), and autism at 3.7% (about 1% globally [2]).
The point here is that, you all already work with people who have ADHD or are autistic. If your company isn’t doing right to retain us, your going to lose talent to those who do.
Small accommodations can go a very long way. Accomodations are personal, not everyone needs the same thing.
For example, I start my day at 10am. Easily managed accommodation, and now I get significantly better sleep. Everyone wins.
OP, I’d love to call out specific companies that are good at this, but I don’t really know.
[0] stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demographics-m [1] https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/attention-deficit... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
What matters for those type of surveys is how many people report struggles. If someone struggle with attention but does not have the exact number of symptoms required for a formal diagnostic, they are still struggling.
That people struggle is an important statistic, but shouldn't immediately be counted as ADHD or autism. There can be other factors at play.
"I have a concentration and/or memory disorder (e.g. ADHD)"
"I have autism / an autism spectrum disorder (e.g. Asperger's)"
Now that people are catching on to the fact they're not actually lazy but just have a much higher barrier to starting and maintaining focus on things they're not extremely passionate about some doctors handle 5-10 new patients a day.
ADHD is not rare. At all. The super strict guidelines exist because people are afraid of Ritalin and they're extra afraid of giving it to children, so double up on your "this is not actually a real thing" hysteria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6487490/
"Up to 75% of adults with childhood-onset ADHD exhibit delayed circadian rhythm phase, including a rise in salivary dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO) and alterations in core body temperature and actigraphy-measured sleep-related movements occurring approximately 1.5 hours later in the night than healthy adults. In addition, adults with childhood-onset ADHD exhibit a delay in early morning cortisol rise (i.e., a hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenocortical (HPA) marker of circadian phase), with secretion occurring two hours later than healthy controls. Adults with childhood-onset ADHD are also frequently “night owls” who display delayed circadian preference and increased alertness in the evening (Kooij, 2017, Coogan and McGowan, 2017)."
It's about Adderall (a popular medicine for ADHD), but the beginning of the article has a great discussion on the nature of ADHD.
71% of study participants don’t like their jobs. I will not write my opinion about ADHD, but most of the jobs are boring soul sucking time waste. Think about school - there were some good teachers, that liked what they did and the majority that just did their job. HN crowd obviously had good math and computer science and maybe physics or chemistry teachers.
I am your age and probably with ADHD too. But at this age you should know yourself and the tricks to overcome the deficits. My job is tragical. I am writing stupid shift registers in VHDL (that’s 2nd year homework at the university), but would like to design FPGA accelerators for high performance computing or day trading or machine learning. But the life isn’t pony yard. I can very well imagine HR making fun about the psychopaths they hired for their neurodiversity program. I know, it’s harsh and not pleasant, but I have heard a lot at this age already.
My advice: take some time, learn to know yourself better, especially how to overcome roadblocks and try act normal. Even if it means to play together with bored unhappy crowd.
I believe I have ADHD, I'm seeking a diagnosis (or at the very least for someone to confirm that I'm just extremely lazy), which in Sweden is actually very difficult, and so far this has been the best company to work for.
That said: I personally have a lot of responsibility, and with responsibility comes more "free reign" on what needs to happen -- this is definitely where I lack the focus to understand what needs to happen next as I get paralysed when there's equally important tasks.. This is not the case for the majority of my company though.
We're hiring. https://career.sharkmob.com