Ask HN: When to give up on dreams?
I made a similar thread a week ago but realize that it was far too long and unrelatable. To keep things short, I’m currently a very difficult 5-year math & CS program in a small European country. My main goal with attending this program was to get into machine learning-research as I feel I have the interest, aptitude and the field still having massive potential. Unfortunately, the workload is very high, and I’ve lost much of my interest for pure mathematics which the first three years mostly consist of. This makes the 60h/week required to maintain a decent GPA much more difficult. In addition to this, the program is basically unknown internationally despite being very competitive, so I feel like my chances of landing a PhD position at a good US school is quite low even if I feel like I have the talent.
On the flip side I can switch to a top medical school here (top 10 worldwide). I find medicine to be as interesting as mathematics while the workload being significantly lower. Getting a PhD position seems way easier too as it’s way more well known internationally. Simultaneously I can work as a physician or a software engineer if all else fails. By choosing this path though, I’d be giving up on my dreams in machine learning and not living up to my potential.
52 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 101 ms ] threadRest well friend!
That said, consider that with a career in medicine, you could get into research aspects, learn some machine-learning on your own, and apply that to your medical research. I believe it would be much harder to go in the other direction.
Regarding a PhD, I am a Mexican who was "just ok" in a no-name Mexican college where I studied my BSc Computer Science.
I got a scholarship for the UK to do PhD in CS on a 'red brick' university. It was amazing and life changing. So you being on eastern europe surely can easily get somewhere good as well.
Dont give up your dream! Specially when your dream is so fucking profitable. (If you told me it was arts or something similar I would have doubts).
Only years later did it occur to me that it might have simply been burnout, and with the right kind of coaching I might have been able to continue. So that's the other bit I'd suggest, besides just taking a rest: find some people who can advise you about this and who you have a good connection with personally. Don't just go through it on your own. Something that may not be obvious to you at all might be the first thing to occur to a more experienced person with your best interests at heart, and it might turn out to be a big deal. You don't need to deprive yourself of help.
Finally, in a broad sense, the OP is probably right that pursuing academics will be more difficult. In a hours per week sense, maybe maybe not (it's probably about the same), but academics is so completely broken that it's going to be a lot less straightforward and fraught. Europe, from what I get from my colleagues, is much more sane in both areas, but similar costs and benefits probably are involved.
I agree with others that the OP is probably burned out. But I think that's the nature of his problem. I'm more concerned about the fact he's saying that he doesn't have the interest for the math. That might be a function of that program, or might be a clue he's not interested.
Some random thoughts:
1. I might reconsider the goal of going to the US. There's plenty of great places in Europe, and (speaking as an American), academics are screwed up in the US. It's a bubble if there ever was one.
2. The OP might reach out to people in medicine and see if there are projects in medicine they could help out with, in terms of research etc. Even if it's remote I imagine there might be things they could do? It might help figure things out and/or open doors.
Dude, there’s something wrong either with your schools, or with your perception of reality.
In any case, life is not a picnic, there’s nothing unusual in constantly putting extra effort to achieve something worthwhile.
Talk to some doctors. Ask what their workload is like.
It turns out that software engineers are worked way, way harder.
Edit: Obviously things change in the actual job.
Source: Worked with multiple surgeons all over the country.
Having worked as a software engineer/developer, I can at that sometimes the work can be challenging but overall the job itself has been pretty easy and low-stress in comparison.
During the first half of my career, I put in a lot of extra hours but then I realized it wasn't going to help me get a raise or get promoted so I stopped doing that and stuck mostly to the 40 hour work week which I was being paid for.
But the nature of the medicine is incomparably harder and more complex than the nature of CS discipline (which is an artificial human-made construct, however sophisticated).
It only means that if someone puts less time/effort in studying more complicated thing, this someone is much worse in it than in less complicated matter.
Being born in eastern europe myself I know of plenty of shitty schools, both medical and engineering.
Ask yourself if your dream is actually to have any PhD or a PhD in machine learning.
Sometime we confuse the goal with the means. If you don't like what you are doing, quit ! The sooner the better. When you like what you are doing, it doesn't matter how hard it get, you enjoy it.
If your goal is to have a PhD position in Machine Learning and you feel like your chances aren't good where you are, try to think about creative way improve your chances (competitions, side project, etc...). Don't just give up if it is really what you want.
But if you goal is just to land a PhD position, then move to improve your chances !
I started a PhD and found that I just didn't love it enough. I think one's innate curiosity and drive regarding the investigation the subject matter needs to outweigh the undesirable aspects of the pursuit. I saw other people absolutely driven by their work, and they basically sailed through. The others who found it more of a chore often completed the program but then left the field.
It sounds like you and your program are not aligned.
The way you frame it, it almost seems like a no-brainer to switch. Perhaps that kind of work is just something you're more comfortable with. You can try these deep, introspective thought experiments, but I know it's hard to really know without actually doing it. The grass is always greener on the other side. Sometime it actually is.
To put frame it in a more positive light: I'm confident that if I am able to grind through the first years of math, things will get much easier due to my much higher interest and a less workload during the latter years. There is some career/research advice that goes along the lines of "do what you think about when you shower". When I'm showering I often think about something relating to machine learning or similar.
As for medicine not being less mentally challenging, I don't think that holds true in my country. I know it's the case in most countries but here medicine is 6y and average study time is around 40h/week with only P/F grading.
Take a step back and try to really come to grips with your own limitations, and whether or not you're actually willing to put in the work to overcome them in order to achieve your dreams, whatever they may be.
Go into medicine, you’ll dodge a bullet.
Just throwing some thoughts out, but it sounds like you're burned out because you've lost touch with what made you passionate about this in the first place and it seems a pity to abandon it without exploring other paths to the same goal.
Also, I will be cautious about "... landing a PhD position at a good US school", from my experience and others, I've found out that it's more important to look after a supervisor with whom you can resonate rather than chasing a reputable institution.
(Disclaimer, I'm a PhD student in the UK)
If I were you I'd reconsider this statement, which I've probably internalized so It's never challenged. Is any part of that statement actually true?
My advice would be simple: Try to take a few days off if at all possible so you can go into this with a clear mind. Then for each of your possible choices think about:
* What does a successful outcome look like here?
* What does failure look like here?
* Is there an in-between outcome?
* How do you feel about ending up in each of these cases?
* What is the likelihood of each of these cases?
* If you go all in on this and fail, what realistic backups do you have? Does this change your opinion on the previous questions?
Take however long you need to choose, then act decisively and look back as little as possible.
I will also say that your expectations of a PhD in medicine being way easier seems off to me, but I am clueless about both medicine and machine learning, so what do I know. Do make sure though that you are making your decision based on good information.
As for a PhD in medicine being easier, I don't mean that doing the actual PhD is easier but rather the entrance requirements are. The medical school in my country is good so I can just do my PhD there which would be quite easy. On the other hand, the technical school I'm in doesn't have that much research in machine learning so I'd have to apply abroad which would make things much harder. Not to mention that machine learning is a hot area and perhaps the most competitive of all PhD-subjects.
I don't know much about the field so I can only guess, but maybe you can find some people here or elsewhere to talk about this who have the relevant experience?
Unfortunately, there aren't too many people/research in my interest area in my country, but I'll try to ask my classmates. Thanks for your comment!
But did you learn anything ? If yes, I'd think of it as a very expensive education.
I assume your talents can be far better used in the private or government sectors.
Fellow HN users: Am I mistaken?
I want to do R&D work in an industrial capacity. The particular domain/industry is a very credentialized one. I have no interested in going in academia as a career (becoming a professor, etc.)
I look at industry/government roles doing that sort of thing and they want you to have prior research experience in the domain, if not flat out listing a PhD as a requirement. How do you get in that sort of role without the research experience of a PhD? I’ve heard plenty about the institutional corruption, financial sacrifices, etc. That stuff is all fine with me in the long run, nut admittedly the time-cost is a bit intimidating.
Also, things have a tendency to work out. When I was in college I wanted to study astrophysics because I thought space was awesome and humbling and I loved learning about it. However, as I worked through my courses I found myself doing a lot of heavy math and very little cosmic wondering. So I switched to English Literature and absolutely loved reading about philosophy and politics and the human condition. Nowadays I work on software development, which has the right balance of creativity and quantitative reasoning for me. I didn't set out on that path, or spend any of my university time studying it directly, but by being flexible and open and listening to my own needs I arrived at a great place (and I hope you do too!)
One thing (among many) I didn't (couldn't) appreciate when I was your age, Is just how much of my life was still ahead of me. The notion that your path will be set in stone based solely on how you spend the next five years is silly, but it's an easy assumption to make, since it's what you're currently focused on, and (if your upbringing was anything like mine) there are probably lots of people insisting that this is a life-or-death situation.
Secondly (and I'm not sure whether this will come as a comfort or not), your dreams might change. What if you push through your current program and end up hating the field? Or get into a PhD in the US and hate it here? What if you become a medical researcher and find you hate that? Or decide to become a physician and hate it (while still harboring a love of machine learning)? And what if you suddenly decide that you'd like to pursue something altogether different than CS or medicine?
I'm not saying that because the outcome is unpredictable you should just choose a direction blindly. Rather, you shouldn't stress too much about whether your path will line up with your current passions. Ultimately, your interests may change in ways that you can't anticipate, but you're young, and (per paragraph 2) you'll have lots of time to change your mind in the future.
If this advice seems unhelpful, I understand (per paragraph 1), since none of it addresses what you should actually do. But, whether you realize it or not, this isn't actually a question about what you should do, it's a question about what you value in life. For what its worth, none of the imagined outcomes (ML PhD, Med School, SE) seem like a terrible fate to me, so you should just follow your heart.
These were all reasons why I switched, but the main reason was the job I would end up with in the end. It's so much harder to work remote, have a good work life balance and move abroad (depending on where you live) once you start working than in other jobs.
I think even if you don't end up in machine learning in the end, having a strong computer science and math background opens you so many possibilities in this world that I would give it another go if I were you (after some rest, like others already recommended). Maybe you could make an exchange semester in another country? that can really help motivation wise :)
Good luck!!
Hopefully early progress leads to somewhat multiplicative growth of future progress - compound gains on early achievements.
Additionally, you're in a good situation if you can be at 80% peak effort and 20% peak effort at will - balance it about 50/50 imo. Lean on help - ask professors for mercy, order takeout when you're exhausted, etc. - to nudge your life towards that ratio, when possible.
Otherwise, if you're operating at max burn almost all the time, no matter how hard you work and how much it pays off, it won't be your dream - it'll be your yoke.