I haven’t played much Tibia, but I’m fascinated by its camera/art style. As far as I’m aware, it was the last game to use the orthographic projection with a shear as popularized by the Ultima series. Folks seem to love it or hate it, but it certainly makes controls convenient as it eliminates odd movement angles typical of isometric games.
Good old times, in Tibia ~2007 you actually feared for your life, as you could lose weeks of work when you died, and most servers where pvp enforced
Talking to the NPCs at the store was also very interesting, you actually had to talk, using the chat like a normal human being, not click the options, and they only answered one player at a time
also a training ground for scammers. I learned about scams when I felt into one, signing with my credentials into fake tibia site, when I though I am joining a clan. Lost 10 levels and got a red scull. I was 12.
But my cousin, learned to scam other people and got some spare cash doing that. Not that I condone that behaviour. He would befriend OTS owners and somehow get admin rights on multiple OTS servers (unofficial servers) and then sell items or levels via prepaid cards, without the knowledge of an owner. Sometimes he stole ownership of whole OTS servers and ruined them just for fun.
> Talking to the NPCs at the store was also very interesting, you actually had to talk, using the chat...
Yep I remember people would form orderly queues in the shops, waiting for their turn to talk with the NPC. Not sure what happened with line cutters, but I assumed they got hunted down afterwards.
As a seasoned PVP clan owner on the UO shards in 1997 - I approve of this message.
God those were the days -- but we had a Massive God Mode Advantage in 1997... we ran Intel's Game Lab with a T3 dedicated to our groups' needs, and 6 local accounts in the Intel DRG Lab (Only two of us worked there, we ran three login-accounts a piece - but we had a Guild Member (there were only three actual humans in the guild - but 8 accounts)
PvP in UO was sublime. Golden age of gaming for this old gamer.
I forgot to mention ; the reason our third guild member could keep up with us:
We asked him "How are you able to play at the same time/no-lag such as we are?"
He replied with a pic of him sitting on a THRONE of weed...
He was one of the largest cannabis growers in BC Canada: He stated that he payed $1,500 / month for a T1 to his house and he made his living by fedex-ing his weed all over the world...
The article's title is "Tibia (video game)", which is much less useful as a submission title than "Tibia (1997) is one of the earliest and longest-running MMORPGs", yet the HN rules require that the former be used instead of the latter.
I get that there are reasons for this rule, but if the rule is going to be enforced at all, it should be enforced consistently.
I could answer this a few different ways, but the bottom line is that HN is a spirit-of-the-law place, not a letter-of-the-law place, so you can't expect a mechanical consistency in moderation.
There's a sizeable subset of HN users who want rules to be enforced that way and I appreciate that completely, but the domain is just too complex to allow for it. If we tried, we'd end up being more inconsistent in worse ways.
Another way of answering the question is that the guidelines list the major rules and there are also many minor rules or heuristics (hundreds of them, I suppose) that have emerged over 15 years of practice, and it doesn't make sense to try to formalize them all. Ultimately, there's no way to eliminate the element of human judgment and interpretation from the role of moderating a place like HN, and it would be unwise to try. That doesn't mean that we don't try our best to be evenhanded and consistent—we definitely do. But in the end you're all victims of our gut feelings a.k.a. pattern matching, to put it dramatically.
The check and balance on all this is that if we get something significantly wrong, the community is never shy about quickly letting us know, and in such cases we hasten to admit and fix the mistake.
Thank you for the detailed answer. I guess I'll update my own heuristic, so that in future I'll add extra context to submission titles when linking to pages like Wikipedia articles which don't generally include enough context in their default titles.
I wasted countless hours when I was young playing Tibia with my brother and father. It was a brutal game for children. Spending two weeks gaining 2 levels and then losing them when the Internet broke or another player killed you.
It used to be an amazing game where dying was supremely painful and meant the loss of tens (or sometimes hundreds) of hours of work.
It used to also be possible to player kill in all sorts of creative ways which made the game a lot of fun. If you were clever in using game mechanics (uh traps, etc.) you could take out a much higher level with several low levels this way.
Over the years many interesting game mechanics were removed and the death penalty has also been reduced tremendously.
I played this back in the day. It was amazing. Before the skull system. You wielded real power in this game if you could attain it. There were real heroes who held their ground against tyranny, risking years of work on their character.
Now days it feels a bit cartoonish, and auto-managed everything. The community of English speaking players collapsed when World of Warcraft came out. The game is not what it was.
How come in the post WoW era no MMO has ever been even remotely as close as the old MMOs, like Tibia or Ultima, to fulfilling the promise of a shared, persistent, virtual world?
Negative scaling: the bigger it gets, the more potential for people to cause problems, on a larger scale.
This leads to features being removed to sanitize the world and make it more manageable. The community governance - among the players and between the players and the owner - becomes worse. For the overwhelming majority, making a game more like a theme park is better.
That said, I think 2nd life is still going and mostly delivering this?
It's not nothing, in fact it's quite an achievement to have survived so long as a PVP MMO, but it's never going to take over the world. People who want that very particular blend of nothing happening interspersed by moments of sheer terror and the risk of losing something you've sunk a lot of time/money into know where it is.
EVE is kinda different than most other MMORPGS, I guess that's why it's hard to compare.
I mean, of course it shares certain elements, but it's not a lot of RPG (except parts of the character progression) and just not "fantasy + walking around" makes it a non-starter for a huge part of the classical MMO player base.
Does Minecraft count? What other MMOs are people playing and why don't they come close? I've dabbled in some post-WoW MMOs over the years and they are no less "shared" and "persistent" than WoW—they're basically the same thing.
Tibia and Ultima were brutal games that can't really compete in the sea of choices people have in modern gaming. Just look how many games reduce any sort of grindy or hardcore mechanics they had in an attempt to appeal to a wider, modern audience instead of just the few people who want and have time for a more hardcore experience.
I saw an interview with one of the high level people involved in the modern Pokemon games who said as much when asked about the complaints of the modern Pokemon games being easier and less grindy and less complicated.
Should modern MMOs always cater to a wider audience than a smaller one? Well, just imagine you were the one bankrolling such an expensive, risky project.
Minecraft doesn't really hit the "shared world" part in the same way. Most players play alone, or with a small group of friends. There are a couple of Minecraft "anarchy" servers that come close, but playing on one of them is a pretty deliberate decision.
I recall reading the developers of (the ultimately aborted) 'Fallout Online' remarking that Ultima Online's player mechanics were pretty close to what they'd expect from the reality of a post-apocalyptic wasteland. I can't find the source of this quote right now, unfortunately. I felt really gratified hearing that, as I'd been trying to explain the savagery of UO[2] in the 2000s to people talking about Rust's gameplay in 2020.
I think it's really interesting to look back at UO's design from a modern perspective. The designers have stated over, and over again[0][1] how absolutely wrong their predictions of player behaviour ended up being. It was such an ambitious, pure, and innocent idea. Its gameplay style may not have stood the test of time, however it was undoubtedly an important learning experience for game design as a whole. I'm tempted to say its a shame that games like UO are a thing of the past. However when I look back at my time playing it, the thing that sticks out the most is how much time and effort was spent just avoiding abuse.
There are MMOs like this but they come once or a twice every decade and fail miserably, full loot PVP MMO are built for a specific mindset of players and there comes a time where the “sheep” are all gone and only wolves remains. This situation creates a dwindling effect on the population and you end up playing with a few hundred players at best in a matter of a year.
In “recent” years I played Darkfall Online and Mortal Online which are very rooted in the early days of persistant virtual world ala UO but sadly they both failed to keep an healthy population.
Have you tried Mortal Online 2? the game just came out and is a true successor to UO in many ways, sadly they had massive problems scaling the game so they had to mirror the main persistent world and added 4 instances of the main world to cope with the demand. The vision is to have a one big persistent world with no instance/loading screen and keep adding more and more continents to spread out the population.
If you liked playing UO I recommend you check it out, its a unique gaming experience which may sadly go extinct in the future!
Over here in Poland, Tibia seemed to be what WoW was in the US.
I might be misremembering things, I am too young to remember much from that period, but I definitely heard the word Tibia much more often. I don't think I've heard of WoW before I learned to speak English proficiently and encountered random articles from that period.
This game defined my childhood. All of my friends played it. We'd log into it just to hang out at the temple south of Thais. Training skills and chatting. It was like IRC but with a MMORPG built-in.
I was right out of högstadiet so I had a few friend groups across different gymnasium and the common thread was WoW. Funnily enough I was more or less the "only one" gamer who did not actually play it.
> Over here in Poland, Tibia seemed to be what WoW was in the US.
Those MMOs are from very different eras.
WoW was released 7 years later in 2004, by then a whole lot of 3D MMOs were already released and somewhat successful, like Anarchy Online.
Imho the better analogue would be Ultima Online; Also 2D and from the same era as Tibia.
Tibia did so much better than UO, outside of NA, because Tibia did not require a monthly subscription to play it.
It has options to "subscribe" but paying for that was also possible trough other methods than CC, while most US developed MMOs would often only offers paying per CC for the subscription.
That left a lot of people locked out who in theory were even willing to pay for playing, but in practice couldn't be bothered to get a CC just to pay for a video game.
EQ was my first mmorpg too, but i got banned in 2008 for botting.
Come 2018 or something I learned of PEQ which is a eq emu server allowing unlimited macro assisted botting- so this server is basically a guild emu at this stage. You run 54 bots and solo raid content. VERY MUCH FUN PROGRAMMING
There were some really brutal tactics in this game. If someone with a higher level was ighting with a tough opponent, you could wait for them to be low hp, kill them and take their stuff. Apparently the friendlist system in that game worked in a manner where you didn't have to accept the friend invitation to see if someone was online and their location in the world. This was useful for stalking. When you saw people you had beef with come online at the same time, you knew you were in trouble. Especially with a system where if you died, you could lose levels. My friend told me that he had sometime angered a Swedish clan they started to stalk him. His solution was to make fake account that pretended to be a member of this Swedish clan, and he then used it to bait an even bigger clan to attack this Swedish clan by pissing them off.
I played this game a lot and loved it. It was brutal and I lost a lot of interest as it became more player friendly. Some more things to note -
You could not pass through other players so in a single person hall way you could be blocked. You could click and drag them to push but this could be counteracted by placing certain objects behind yourself (parcels for example) or another player.
You had to chat with NPCs to sell things. Hi. Sell plate armor. Yes. Yes. Things could only be sold one at a time.
Spells had to be typed out in the chat box. I do not remember if there were always hot keys, but if there were early on they did not auto cast.
Sorcerers and druids (healers) did something called mana sitting to grind up their magic level. Usually they would be making runes (stored up spell) that could be used in battle. These did not stack so you would sell backpacks full of them. Runes did not have hot keys for a long time so mages were pro at clicking them then clicking enemies or party members.
Knights (tanks) could train their melee skill by attacking monsters with a weak weapon. Basically just sitting around and chatting.
Rope, to go up holes, had to be used on a specific spot on the ground. You could pile items on this spot and block its use. This was used to trap people to be killed by players or monsters.
Luring was a big thing. You had to take these tedious walks between cities. Higher level players would lure monsters from further areas to the main path. You could bring both giant spiders and dragon lords to this path. I died a lot this way but it made travel very exciting. You could yell so it was often seen GS AR DWARF BRIDGE as you approached one of the larger barriers to monsters on the path.
The death penalty was very harsh as well. You lost like 10% (iirc) of your experience which amounted to your last level gained. Additionally, you had a 100% chance to drop your back pack slot, and a 10% chance to drop each piece of gear (helmet, weapon, shield, armor, legs, boots, ring, arrow slot). This hurt. Tears were shed.
Paladins (distance fighters) had to pick their ammo up off the ground. So they would throw a spear then have to pick it up.
To sell things you would advertise by yelling in the city you were in. The screen was always full of offers as you approached the depot in the city.
There was a game called fast hands where you tried to
move items onto a mutually accessible square and off before the other person could grab it. Many people used scripts to cheat at this.
Tibia was absolutely brutal. Guilds operated very much as gangs. Tons of pl, br, and mx players. I loved it though. It was a very big part of my childhood. I loved it because it was brutally difficult and lost interest as some of these flaws were fixed. The other game I played was early America's Army, which also had a very different pace to most fps, it was another really fun game and kinda died when they switched engines and may the play loop more traditional and faster (added respawns).
> The death penalty was very harsh as well. You lost like 10% (iirc) of your experience which amounted to your last level gained. Additionally, you had a 100% chance to drop your back pack slot, and a 10% chance to drop each piece of gear (helmet, weapon, shield, armor, legs, boots, ring, arrow slot). This hurt. Tears were shed.
And that's the "forgiving" version, really early on players would even drop their equipment on death.
It's amazing to see Tibia on HN and hear these stories and refresh my memory. I almost lost touch with that part of my childhood.
I loved how brutal Tibia was. One day I was just hanging out in front of the bank (which was also the main market place), looking what others had to sell. A very high player with incredible walking speed arrived from the East. He was blocked by a a few players (it's always busy in Thais as it's the main centre). Within a split second he blast a magic spell at the person in front of him, who died instantly. Chaos ensued, and the high level player continued on his way to the West (it looked like he was in a hurry). Then everyone flocked to the dead person and started throwing around its body and gear. (If someone accesses the dead body, but someone else moves it, the dialog window that shows the body's content is closed). When someone would die, this ritual would continue until the body was far away from multiple people as long as it took for someone to finish looting the body.
I was standing one square away from the dead person, and really felt grateful it wasn't me. Poor guy lost his gear and had to level up again just because someone needed to get through...
It's just one of many many experiences I had, many of which rushed adrenaline through my veins.
Yes, you could add anyone to your list of people you wanted to your friends list to see if they were online. And if they were online, there was a spell that told you the cardinal direction they were from you, plus a fuzzy distance (they are very far to the north). So people used to hunt each other when they got to disagreements, and at higher levels, it was common for entire groups of people to get into wars with each other. The lack of instancing of any kind, made it so to advance you would need to go hunt monsters in an always shared environment, and with monster respawn rate sometimes being too low to support multiple people hunting at the same spot, and monsters not spawning in view of a player, made disagreements on who got to hunt where be bound to happen.
My heart would pump a lot every time, something unexpected happened, it felt very real. Someone appeared, and I was alone... Exploring, hiding, killing, running...
Dying was very costly. So it was very personal, a lot of people would go to the killer and ask "why?". Noting the killer's name and plot revenge was certain, you could follow someone for days, or ask for help
Team was important, but if you didn't have friends playing Tibia, or at all, getting a team in the game was hard and because there were a lot of scammers just waiting to double cross you. I think that was one of it's biggest problems
The funnier things in this game were not fund in most similar games
* Using the environment to make traps, like blocking the path with boxes and set them on fire
Just block someone in a room with too many monsters, collecting the loot when dead
Or block the path of someone running after you
* Running away mechanics, very funny, could go up and down walls to roofs, by piling boxes or using a spell
* Hiding your loot under a tree, while running away, most would not look for it, you could recover it hours later
* Manual aim of spells, to hit people you would need click on them, so they could run erratically to make it harder
There was even a flash site just to train your aim
But unfortunately eventually changed to automatic aim since there were a lot of people using aimbots
* The quests had to be found, which made it exciting, there were secrets everywhere. You had to explore. But also worked against it making it harder to just start a random quest. Even though there were a lot of community sites curating many of them
Other games just felt like sandboxes compared to Tibia
This game changed my life. It forced me to learn English to be able to properly interact and play the game. Eventually I started dabbling with open-source tibia servers(AKA otservers) and it didn't take long before I was writing some lua scripts. It was fascinating being able to program the game world like that.
If today I'm able to work remotely abroad as a software engineer, I owe a huge part of that to Tibia. My favorite game ever.
I created my account just to reply to you... I had the exact same thing happen to me. Learned lua, and therefore programming, because of otservers. Now I'm working as soft. eng because of that. Fascinating how a game shapes us, isn't it?
A friend who went to college with me says Tibia was his first programming experience. He says he used to write scripts for it. As others have mentioned, lots of my friends here in Brazil played Tibia.
I actually met my best friend because of tibia. Heard him talking about it in school. Many great memories. No game would get your heart beating like tibia when you’re about to take a death.
Medivia is actually very close to old school tibia if anybody is interested in checking it out. https://medivia.online/
There are other long running MMORPGs that are worth mentioning like RuneScape (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape). A few years ago they realized they changed the game so much that they decided to 'restore a backup' from the good old times and launch it as 'Old School RuneScape'. If I'm not mistaken this retro version has more users than the 'main version', currently called RuneScape3. This game has a documentary on youtube and such. The main problem I found about being a 'long lived running MMORPGs' is that although the game still exists, the company was bought twice as far as I am concerned, and that changes a lot of things in a game, specially regarding to monetization. For example adding some gambling features and not standing much for ethics inside the game (e.g., bug exploitation) as a measure to keep paying customers. In the documentary the founder & ceo (Andrew) explicitly regret selling the company after seeing how the game (or at least some part of it) turned out to be.
Respect to Andrew for creating RuneScape. I wonder how many people coded it.
This is what really got me into programming - wanting to write similar MMO. 15 years later still unrealised dream :/
I also miss the times where there were active gamedev forums and everyone had their own game engine, now everyone uses Unity and Discord I guess.
Tibia was great in the early days. It had phenomenal player driven politics where in principle anyone could kill anyone, but in practice people had friends, and some people had really powerful friends who could make life hell for you if you bothered them. Eventually the game operators restricted the pvp system and added a formal system for having guild wars. Today I understand why they did it, but it effectively killed any interesting player driven politics.
The server I played on was pretty stable for years because it had an ultra powerful ruling guild (the Liches of Archinare on Lunara). Eventually they were their own downfall, having persecuted enough people over the years -- myself included -- that the uprising, when it came, was overwhelming. And after that came endless wars as various factions vyed to occupy the power vacuum that appeared
I learned a lot about culture and power from that game. For instance, in the early days of Lunara, pretty much nobody targeted the friends and loved ones of their opponents during wars, and the idea was highly frowned upon. But in the beginning of the uprising against LoA, I opened that door, and it became standard practice after that in all the subsequent conflicts
Another aspect I particularly enjoyed about the game was the diversity of its player base. I learned Swedish and Brazilian Portuguese and bits of Dutch and Tagalog and other languages because I always had friends to practice with there. I even picked up a bit of Papiamento
Getting killed also meant all your equipment and inventory could be looted and stolen by whoever comes across your corpse.
The exp penalty was also crazy; Players could lose levels from dying, even levels on trade skills, which often would take many hundred hours, and materials, to level up.
So it was very much possible to gank a very developed high level character, with hundreds of hours in progress, back to basic lvl 1 with no skills if one was dedicated enough.
That reminds me of the time somebody hacked (um... or watched my stupidly basic password over my shoulder... whatever) my imp account on a mud, and (not knowing what powers he actually wielded) used me to drag his account around power leveling and collecting loot. I caught him in the act, changed my password, killed him, grabbed his corpse, teleported to him, and ate his corpse so he knew what happened to the loot. Kept killing and eating him until he was level 1 again.
Not only can characters lose levels, if they die enough times they end up back in Rookgaard at level 1 with all skills and spells permanently reset. I once witnessed the so called "rooking" of a level 100 character... They threw the items in the river too. Imagine logging into the game and picking your level 100 character only to see it spawn in Rookgaard completely reset.
As far as I remember logging out required the players to wait for a timer to run down.
This was in place to prevent players from just logging out to flee from fights/escape dying.
But it also meant if the client lost connection, without the player going trough the log-out procedure, their character would still be present on the server and in-game world, often for several minutes.
Made it quite tense when losing connection during a difficult fight, you never knew if you logged back in to a won fight, or logged back in respawned at the temple with all your stuff gone, as your character lost the fight while you were disconnected.
And because very early on there was only one place where every dead characters would respawn, the temple, organized groups could target somebody for repeated killing even while they were disconnected, they just had to be fast about it before the character timed out.
> Made it quite tense when losing connection during a difficult fight, you never knew if you logged back in to a won fight, or logged back in respawned at the temple with all your stuff gone, as your character lost the fight while you were disconnected.
Amusingly that is still the case in Old School RuneScape today, when in the Wilderness. And used to be the case everywhere in the world until they changed the death mechanics to be less brutal.
I've also played on Lunara and I remember Liches of Archinare to this day! I remember how proud I was when I became a member, even though I was just a low-rank peasant :P
I’m building a game like this right now with a small team.
It takes place in an O’Neill cylinder and if you die, you die. The goal is also to survive for months, which allows a player to make their character much strong that starters and have much better equipment. It also makes them targets though, so they need to build a tribe that protects them.
The game is built in Unreal Engine 5 with hyperrealistic graphics.
It’ll go live in a couple of weeks for alpha testing, so if you want to test the alpha, you can sign up on the website. https://extrastar.wixsite.com
I've been playing it for 15 years and I still have PACC (prem) account, but it's relatively young character (00:10 Your Distance Fighting skill changed from level 126 (with 21.52% progress towards level 127) to level 126 (with 21.98% progress towards level 127))
Developers are greediest fucks I've ever seen.
It's insane that game this old can be this profitable - just google "tibia income" and go to graphics
Most people play this game in "grind-style" nowadays, so basically team-hunt everyday for 1? 2? 3? hours (idk what are optimal strats nowadays), get levels and cash, do bosses, yada yada.
they basically recreated tibia game client & server
people were playing on private servers with real clients
and nowadays as I see custom private servers use custom clients that are impressive as hell imo.
I've had a lot of fun debugging those C++/Lua game mechanics when trying to create my own server but since its time consuming to create nice game play then I gave up
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This is the game where you could be DDoSd if you joined somebody's team speak/ventrilo/etc
This game fought and probably still fights bots. They improved shitton by using BattleEye.
They fought against DDoSes against their servers hard too, I remember when they used iirc Prolexic and it didn't work well
Fun thing: IIRC Tibia's game company rewrote their C++ client in something that worked in web browser, but afaik they eventually killed it. I do wonder whether they'll try again with WebAseembly
>The Tibia Flash client will also be discontinued tomorrow.
Their gross revenue in 2019 was €15M, with 94 employees. That's €159k per employee on average, not counting overheads. That's pretty good money, but not excessively "greedy" (that's not looking at actual wages... their execs may well be bastards).
They had a much bigger haul in 2020, which is probably fairly typical for online games -- we didn't have much else to do during lockdown, and opened our wallets for games. But that isn't sustained income.
Teenage me was so glad to have found Tibia after I ran into a wall trying to play UO from Germany with no CC.
Thus I never got into UO, but randomly came across Tibia. Back then it still ran on the server of the University of Regensburg where the German developers went to uni while creating the game.
The community was so small back then, one of the friends of the developers, acting as community guy, even gave me a little tour around the game, showing me hidden zones where people would train block skill on a bunch of spiders stacked on one tile. Explaining the basic rules how players should behave towards each other as not to come into conflict with "the law", which was players acting as sheriffs.
And it was totally free to play, which blew my mind back then after I didn't get to play UO due to 14 years old me not having a CC.
Reminds me of the early 2000s being a child and running my "business" in Runescape. Come home from school (where I'd be making my spreadsheet or doing napkin math accounting), talk to some of my boys in the game to get an update on the lobbys (lobsters) and then go to Varrock (a major city) on world 2/1 (trade hub worlds for members/free to play) to sell lobsters.
I used to be a poor player, and then got some money by running lobsters from Karamja (island where lobster fishing is popular) to the bank on the mainland. Over time I made friends with other people who were in the same boat (heh) as me, and then we started our own business.
I remember being a child and scammed out of a few thousand gold - it was awful. I learned to trust some people and not others.
I also remember after having enough disposable income in the game, I'd go PKing (pvp) with my buddies in deep wilderness (an area where you could fight other people). The deeper you went, the more dangerous it became because each level farther you went into the wilderness, people of that many levels above you could attack you. Anyway, just remembering death dot tactic where a dozen of us would stand in one spot and the minimap would show 1 player. Any random who happened to be unlucky enough to walk past us got destroyed.
Unfortunately right after I graduated high school, I stopped playing and then my account was hacked some time later I guess.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 177 ms ] threadTalking to the NPCs at the store was also very interesting, you actually had to talk, using the chat like a normal human being, not click the options, and they only answered one player at a time
But my cousin, learned to scam other people and got some spare cash doing that. Not that I condone that behaviour. He would befriend OTS owners and somehow get admin rights on multiple OTS servers (unofficial servers) and then sell items or levels via prepaid cards, without the knowledge of an owner. Sometimes he stole ownership of whole OTS servers and ruined them just for fun.
Yep I remember people would form orderly queues in the shops, waiting for their turn to talk with the NPC. Not sure what happened with line cutters, but I assumed they got hunted down afterwards.
As a seasoned PVP clan owner on the UO shards in 1997 - I approve of this message.
God those were the days -- but we had a Massive God Mode Advantage in 1997... we ran Intel's Game Lab with a T3 dedicated to our groups' needs, and 6 local accounts in the Intel DRG Lab (Only two of us worked there, we ran three login-accounts a piece - but we had a Guild Member (there were only three actual humans in the guild - but 8 accounts)
PvP in UO was sublime. Golden age of gaming for this old gamer.
We asked him "How are you able to play at the same time/no-lag such as we are?"
He replied with a pic of him sitting on a THRONE of weed...
He was one of the largest cannabis growers in BC Canada: He stated that he payed $1,500 / month for a T1 to his house and he made his living by fedex-ing his weed all over the world...
Maybe one of the first Silk Roads..
(Posted a couple times to HN, but there weren't any comments.)
I get that there are reasons for this rule, but if the rule is going to be enforced at all, it should be enforced consistently.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
There's a sizeable subset of HN users who want rules to be enforced that way and I appreciate that completely, but the domain is just too complex to allow for it. If we tried, we'd end up being more inconsistent in worse ways.
Another way of answering the question is that the guidelines list the major rules and there are also many minor rules or heuristics (hundreds of them, I suppose) that have emerged over 15 years of practice, and it doesn't make sense to try to formalize them all. Ultimately, there's no way to eliminate the element of human judgment and interpretation from the role of moderating a place like HN, and it would be unwise to try. That doesn't mean that we don't try our best to be evenhanded and consistent—we definitely do. But in the end you're all victims of our gut feelings a.k.a. pattern matching, to put it dramatically.
The check and balance on all this is that if we get something significantly wrong, the community is never shy about quickly letting us know, and in such cases we hasten to admit and fix the mistake.
It used to also be possible to player kill in all sorts of creative ways which made the game a lot of fun. If you were clever in using game mechanics (uh traps, etc.) you could take out a much higher level with several low levels this way.
Over the years many interesting game mechanics were removed and the death penalty has also been reduced tremendously.
Now days it feels a bit cartoonish, and auto-managed everything. The community of English speaking players collapsed when World of Warcraft came out. The game is not what it was.
However I still get me ‘classic’ fix through Project 1999 and The Al’Kabor project (for varying definitions of ‘classic’).
This leads to features being removed to sanitize the world and make it more manageable. The community governance - among the players and between the players and the owner - becomes worse. For the overwhelming majority, making a game more like a theme park is better.
That said, I think 2nd life is still going and mostly delivering this?
It's not nothing, in fact it's quite an achievement to have survived so long as a PVP MMO, but it's never going to take over the world. People who want that very particular blend of nothing happening interspersed by moments of sheer terror and the risk of losing something you've sunk a lot of time/money into know where it is.
I mean, of course it shares certain elements, but it's not a lot of RPG (except parts of the character progression) and just not "fantasy + walking around" makes it a non-starter for a huge part of the classical MMO player base.
Tibia and Ultima were brutal games that can't really compete in the sea of choices people have in modern gaming. Just look how many games reduce any sort of grindy or hardcore mechanics they had in an attempt to appeal to a wider, modern audience instead of just the few people who want and have time for a more hardcore experience.
I saw an interview with one of the high level people involved in the modern Pokemon games who said as much when asked about the complaints of the modern Pokemon games being easier and less grindy and less complicated.
Should modern MMOs always cater to a wider audience than a smaller one? Well, just imagine you were the one bankrolling such an expensive, risky project.
I think it's really interesting to look back at UO's design from a modern perspective. The designers have stated over, and over again[0][1] how absolutely wrong their predictions of player behaviour ended up being. It was such an ambitious, pure, and innocent idea. Its gameplay style may not have stood the test of time, however it was undoubtedly an important learning experience for game design as a whole. I'm tempted to say its a shame that games like UO are a thing of the past. However when I look back at my time playing it, the thing that sticks out the most is how much time and effort was spent just avoiding abuse.
[0] https://www.raphkoster.com/tag/uo/
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNxJVTJleE
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20050214050928/http://looter.4t....
In “recent” years I played Darkfall Online and Mortal Online which are very rooted in the early days of persistant virtual world ala UO but sadly they both failed to keep an healthy population.
Have you tried Mortal Online 2? the game just came out and is a true successor to UO in many ways, sadly they had massive problems scaling the game so they had to mirror the main persistent world and added 4 instances of the main world to cope with the demand. The vision is to have a one big persistent world with no instance/loading screen and keep adding more and more continents to spread out the population.
If you liked playing UO I recommend you check it out, its a unique gaming experience which may sadly go extinct in the future!
I might be misremembering things, I am too young to remember much from that period, but I definitely heard the word Tibia much more often. I don't think I've heard of WoW before I learned to speak English proficiently and encountered random articles from that period.
> pl?
> br
And other way around. Of course, in the game Brazilians and Poles were huge enemies.
Also I learned how others laugh in other languages
huehuehuehuehue ahuahuahuahua kekekekkee kkkkkk jajajajajaja
So that's probably why I heard more about Tibia from my friends than WoW.
Those MMOs are from very different eras.
WoW was released 7 years later in 2004, by then a whole lot of 3D MMOs were already released and somewhat successful, like Anarchy Online.
Imho the better analogue would be Ultima Online; Also 2D and from the same era as Tibia.
Tibia did so much better than UO, outside of NA, because Tibia did not require a monthly subscription to play it.
It has options to "subscribe" but paying for that was also possible trough other methods than CC, while most US developed MMOs would often only offers paying per CC for the subscription.
That left a lot of people locked out who in theory were even willing to pay for playing, but in practice couldn't be bothered to get a CC just to pay for a video game.
They had debit cards and debit cards couldnt be used for online payments.
http://www.projecteq.net/
You could not pass through other players so in a single person hall way you could be blocked. You could click and drag them to push but this could be counteracted by placing certain objects behind yourself (parcels for example) or another player.
You had to chat with NPCs to sell things. Hi. Sell plate armor. Yes. Yes. Things could only be sold one at a time.
Spells had to be typed out in the chat box. I do not remember if there were always hot keys, but if there were early on they did not auto cast.
Sorcerers and druids (healers) did something called mana sitting to grind up their magic level. Usually they would be making runes (stored up spell) that could be used in battle. These did not stack so you would sell backpacks full of them. Runes did not have hot keys for a long time so mages were pro at clicking them then clicking enemies or party members.
Knights (tanks) could train their melee skill by attacking monsters with a weak weapon. Basically just sitting around and chatting.
Rope, to go up holes, had to be used on a specific spot on the ground. You could pile items on this spot and block its use. This was used to trap people to be killed by players or monsters.
Luring was a big thing. You had to take these tedious walks between cities. Higher level players would lure monsters from further areas to the main path. You could bring both giant spiders and dragon lords to this path. I died a lot this way but it made travel very exciting. You could yell so it was often seen GS AR DWARF BRIDGE as you approached one of the larger barriers to monsters on the path.
The death penalty was very harsh as well. You lost like 10% (iirc) of your experience which amounted to your last level gained. Additionally, you had a 100% chance to drop your back pack slot, and a 10% chance to drop each piece of gear (helmet, weapon, shield, armor, legs, boots, ring, arrow slot). This hurt. Tears were shed.
Paladins (distance fighters) had to pick their ammo up off the ground. So they would throw a spear then have to pick it up.
To sell things you would advertise by yelling in the city you were in. The screen was always full of offers as you approached the depot in the city.
There was a game called fast hands where you tried to move items onto a mutually accessible square and off before the other person could grab it. Many people used scripts to cheat at this.
Tibia was absolutely brutal. Guilds operated very much as gangs. Tons of pl, br, and mx players. I loved it though. It was a very big part of my childhood. I loved it because it was brutally difficult and lost interest as some of these flaws were fixed. The other game I played was early America's Army, which also had a very different pace to most fps, it was another really fun game and kinda died when they switched engines and may the play loop more traditional and faster (added respawns).
And that's the "forgiving" version, really early on players would even drop their equipment on death.
I loved how brutal Tibia was. One day I was just hanging out in front of the bank (which was also the main market place), looking what others had to sell. A very high player with incredible walking speed arrived from the East. He was blocked by a a few players (it's always busy in Thais as it's the main centre). Within a split second he blast a magic spell at the person in front of him, who died instantly. Chaos ensued, and the high level player continued on his way to the West (it looked like he was in a hurry). Then everyone flocked to the dead person and started throwing around its body and gear. (If someone accesses the dead body, but someone else moves it, the dialog window that shows the body's content is closed). When someone would die, this ritual would continue until the body was far away from multiple people as long as it took for someone to finish looting the body.
I was standing one square away from the dead person, and really felt grateful it wasn't me. Poor guy lost his gear and had to level up again just because someone needed to get through...
It's just one of many many experiences I had, many of which rushed adrenaline through my veins.
My heart would pump a lot every time, something unexpected happened, it felt very real. Someone appeared, and I was alone... Exploring, hiding, killing, running...
Dying was very costly. So it was very personal, a lot of people would go to the killer and ask "why?". Noting the killer's name and plot revenge was certain, you could follow someone for days, or ask for help
Team was important, but if you didn't have friends playing Tibia, or at all, getting a team in the game was hard and because there were a lot of scammers just waiting to double cross you. I think that was one of it's biggest problems
The funnier things in this game were not fund in most similar games
* Using the environment to make traps, like blocking the path with boxes and set them on fire
Just block someone in a room with too many monsters, collecting the loot when dead
Or block the path of someone running after you
* Running away mechanics, very funny, could go up and down walls to roofs, by piling boxes or using a spell
* Hiding your loot under a tree, while running away, most would not look for it, you could recover it hours later
* Manual aim of spells, to hit people you would need click on them, so they could run erratically to make it harder
There was even a flash site just to train your aim
But unfortunately eventually changed to automatic aim since there were a lot of people using aimbots
* The quests had to be found, which made it exciting, there were secrets everywhere. You had to explore. But also worked against it making it harder to just start a random quest. Even though there were a lot of community sites curating many of them
Other games just felt like sandboxes compared to Tibia
If today I'm able to work remotely abroad as a software engineer, I owe a huge part of that to Tibia. My favorite game ever.
Medivia is actually very close to old school tibia if anybody is interested in checking it out. https://medivia.online/
https://www.kingdomofdrakkar.com/
I also miss the times where there were active gamedev forums and everyone had their own game engine, now everyone uses Unity and Discord I guess.
The server I played on was pretty stable for years because it had an ultra powerful ruling guild (the Liches of Archinare on Lunara). Eventually they were their own downfall, having persecuted enough people over the years -- myself included -- that the uprising, when it came, was overwhelming. And after that came endless wars as various factions vyed to occupy the power vacuum that appeared
I learned a lot about culture and power from that game. For instance, in the early days of Lunara, pretty much nobody targeted the friends and loved ones of their opponents during wars, and the idea was highly frowned upon. But in the beginning of the uprising against LoA, I opened that door, and it became standard practice after that in all the subsequent conflicts
Another aspect I particularly enjoyed about the game was the diversity of its player base. I learned Swedish and Brazilian Portuguese and bits of Dutch and Tagalog and other languages because I always had friends to practice with there. I even picked up a bit of Papiamento
Getting killed also meant all your equipment and inventory could be looted and stolen by whoever comes across your corpse.
The exp penalty was also crazy; Players could lose levels from dying, even levels on trade skills, which often would take many hundred hours, and materials, to level up.
So it was very much possible to gank a very developed high level character, with hundreds of hours in progress, back to basic lvl 1 with no skills if one was dedicated enough.
Not only can characters lose levels, if they die enough times they end up back in Rookgaard at level 1 with all skills and spells permanently reset. I once witnessed the so called "rooking" of a level 100 character... They threw the items in the river too. Imagine logging into the game and picking your level 100 character only to see it spawn in Rookgaard completely reset.
That could happen if the player was offline??
This was in place to prevent players from just logging out to flee from fights/escape dying.
But it also meant if the client lost connection, without the player going trough the log-out procedure, their character would still be present on the server and in-game world, often for several minutes.
Made it quite tense when losing connection during a difficult fight, you never knew if you logged back in to a won fight, or logged back in respawned at the temple with all your stuff gone, as your character lost the fight while you were disconnected.
And because very early on there was only one place where every dead characters would respawn, the temple, organized groups could target somebody for repeated killing even while they were disconnected, they just had to be fast about it before the character timed out.
Amusingly that is still the case in Old School RuneScape today, when in the Wilderness. And used to be the case everywhere in the world until they changed the death mechanics to be less brutal.
The game is built in Unreal Engine 5 with hyperrealistic graphics.
It’ll go live in a couple of weeks for alpha testing, so if you want to test the alpha, you can sign up on the website. https://extrastar.wixsite.com
https://www.shodan.io/search/report?query=product%3A%22OpenT...
How do I know?
I've been playing it for 15 years and I still have PACC (prem) account, but it's relatively young character (00:10 Your Distance Fighting skill changed from level 126 (with 21.52% progress towards level 127) to level 126 (with 21.98% progress towards level 127))
Developers are greediest fucks I've ever seen.
It's insane that game this old can be this profitable - just google "tibia income" and go to graphics
Most people play this game in "grind-style" nowadays, so basically team-hunt everyday for 1? 2? 3? hours (idk what are optimal strats nowadays), get levels and cash, do bosses, yada yada.
_________
but this game has impressive OSS community
https://github.com/otland/forgottenserver
https://github.com/edubart/otclient
and more
they basically recreated tibia game client & server
people were playing on private servers with real clients
and nowadays as I see custom private servers use custom clients that are impressive as hell imo.
I've had a lot of fun debugging those C++/Lua game mechanics when trying to create my own server but since its time consuming to create nice game play then I gave up
______________
This is the game where you could be DDoSd if you joined somebody's team speak/ventrilo/etc
This game fought and probably still fights bots. They improved shitton by using BattleEye.
They fought against DDoSes against their servers hard too, I remember when they used iirc Prolexic and it didn't work well
Fun thing: IIRC Tibia's game company rewrote their C++ client in something that worked in web browser, but afaik they eventually killed it. I do wonder whether they'll try again with WebAseembly
>The Tibia Flash client will also be discontinued tomorrow.
https://www.tibia.com/news/?subtopic=newsarchive&id=4358
I heard that in early days of Tibia you could buy premium account via letter to Cipsoft's "HQ"
They had a much bigger haul in 2020, which is probably fairly typical for online games -- we didn't have much else to do during lockdown, and opened our wallets for games. But that isn't sustained income.
Thus I never got into UO, but randomly came across Tibia. Back then it still ran on the server of the University of Regensburg where the German developers went to uni while creating the game.
The community was so small back then, one of the friends of the developers, acting as community guy, even gave me a little tour around the game, showing me hidden zones where people would train block skill on a bunch of spiders stacked on one tile. Explaining the basic rules how players should behave towards each other as not to come into conflict with "the law", which was players acting as sheriffs.
And it was totally free to play, which blew my mind back then after I didn't get to play UO due to 14 years old me not having a CC.
Reminds me of the early 2000s being a child and running my "business" in Runescape. Come home from school (where I'd be making my spreadsheet or doing napkin math accounting), talk to some of my boys in the game to get an update on the lobbys (lobsters) and then go to Varrock (a major city) on world 2/1 (trade hub worlds for members/free to play) to sell lobsters.
I used to be a poor player, and then got some money by running lobsters from Karamja (island where lobster fishing is popular) to the bank on the mainland. Over time I made friends with other people who were in the same boat (heh) as me, and then we started our own business.
I remember being a child and scammed out of a few thousand gold - it was awful. I learned to trust some people and not others.
I also remember after having enough disposable income in the game, I'd go PKing (pvp) with my buddies in deep wilderness (an area where you could fight other people). The deeper you went, the more dangerous it became because each level farther you went into the wilderness, people of that many levels above you could attack you. Anyway, just remembering death dot tactic where a dozen of us would stand in one spot and the minimap would show 1 player. Any random who happened to be unlucky enough to walk past us got destroyed.
Unfortunately right after I graduated high school, I stopped playing and then my account was hacked some time later I guess.
Anyway, thanks for the memory recall.