I don't know much about the issue. But isn't that a bit extreme? They're Canadian citizens after all, not terrorists. We've had our fair share of anti-vax protestors here in Australia. Many of them were arrested for unruly/criminal behaviour but not for protesting. How is it even legal to freeze their bank accounts? Asking here to learn more about it.
"Legal" is a strong word for it. It's possible because there is a law that lets the government suspend due process when there is a war or something. And they've chosen to frame the protest as something dire enough to invoke that law. So who's going to stop them?
This is exactly the kind of thing that people were worrying about Trump doing in 2016: breaking societal norms and acting like a strongman, and getting away with it because the legal framework assumed leaders would all act like gentlemen. It's what you hear about people like Orban and Poland's leader doing, ignoring convention to push their own agenda. And now it is happening in Canada
There are also laws in the US that prevent certain people from striking. Simply signing a phone contract or registering on a website these days eliminates your constitutional rights, like to trial by jury. The laws are written by corporations and people are just now realizing that freedom never really existed, at least not to the extend they were lead to believe.
The seventh amendment does in fact lay out trial by jury in civil cases, but it was decided in the supreme court that states were not required to provide jury trials in civil cases; but many of them do provide it until you supposedly "voluntarily" wave it to do things like purchase essential goods and services like a motor vehicle or Internet service.
Once authoritarian abilities are in place, the easiest approaches get used, no matter how repugnant. I'm completely willing to believe that the protests have created a massive public disturbance due to the use of heavy equipment, horns, etc. But the right answer there is to enforce the straightforward laws against such things, arrest the perpetrators, and tow the illegally-used equipment. But of course that takes a lot of work, so instead the government reaches for the easy but totalitarian approach of trying to control communication and organization in general.
1. Ottawa police have basically put zero effort into doing anything about the nighttime noise or generally criminal behaviour of the "protestors."
2. The federal government should not be stepping in immediately to solve policing issues like this precisely until the situation becomes untenable. THAT would have been draconian and authoritarian.
3. Beyond the city police, the provinces themselves needed to precipitate asking for this in some way, or to appear completely nonresponsive. This is why you saw states of emergency in the City, then in the Province, and only then was the act engaged.
4. The law that was invoked was an (IMO) very well designed piece of legislation that was designed to replace something called the War Measures Act, which was abused by Trudeau senior to end a terrorism threat in Quebec. That overstep of federal authority essentially ensured that law would never remain on the books and it was later replaced with this act. This is why today, tomorrow, and through Monday, there are debates going on on the house floor around the invocation of the Emergencies Act, and if the whole of parliament doesn't agree they can simply end it Monday at the conclusion of the debate when they vote on it. These rules are all clearly spelled out in the legislation. There's also effectively a review process where if this is engaged they must review and continue to agree to keep it in force over time, meaning it could not be an indefinite thing unless the majority of MPs agreed to keep it in force.
I purposely stayed away from #1-3, to avoid getting dragged into partisan muck. I would call the situation untenable when the local police are no longer under control of their civilian governments, and I would say at that point the federal police stepping in is entirely appropriate. Part of their actions should include holding the insubordinate and corrupt local police accountable. (Also note I said the easiest thing gets used, not the most authoritarian or extreme)
#4 seems like a decent check on the action, but the action itself is repulsively technocratic - cutting citizens off from the necessary infrastructure of the banking system, by executive decree. And regardless of being heavy handed, it seems ineffectual for actually discouraging the protests and if anything might just increase their resolve.
> I would call the situation untenable when the local police are no longer under control of their civilian governments, and I would say at that point the federal police stepping in is entirely appropriate.
This is not how Canada works unfortunately. Provinces there are essentially in control of everything and either have to make the requests for help or appear derelict enough in their duties for the federal government to step in.
Ottawa is on one side of a river which makes up the eastern border between Ontario and Quebec and a sizeable portion of the people who live and work there cross the river each day. In order to ask the Quebec police forces that are literally in zipline distance of the place this is happening (hyperbole but not by much[1]), Ottawa had to jump through a bunch of hoops, and basically this emergency act use allowed them to ask for help from someone other than Provincial (OPP) and Federal (RCMP) forces.
> Part of their actions should include holding the insubordinate and corrupt local police accountable. (Also note how I said the easiest thing gets used, not the most authoritarian)
This has actually been done. The police chief's been forced to resign, as have the city councilors who were running the police services board of the city (the leadership was essentially voted out and then a few more on the board resigned in protest).
The problem is these things take time. Had the police simply done their jobs from day 1 we wouldn't be here.
I have posted a great deal about this situation in the past weeks and I think I would actually be in favor of these political posts being removed from HN entirely for a couple of reasons:
1. Something that is VERY unusual crops up: lack of nuance or research on replies. This isn't unique to this event; I've noticed it about a few of the political/politicized threads in the past.
2. Making no assumptions about yourself, HN is primarily American and so everything is viewed through that lens. The problem with that is that not every country has the same history, culture, legal system, political system, etc. Invariably posters slip into "this is right, this is not" and there's no room for the middle ground.
Once authoritarian abilities are in place, the easiest approaches get used
You can bet your last dollar that these abilities won't even be applied evenly. Look at the difference in the way the Canadian police have handled these truckers vs how they handle protests by indigenous people.
If the cops aren't willing to use existing powers and laws, what is the point in giving them more powers? Doesn't make sense
Money laundering is illegal in most western jurisdictions. Your accounts can already be seized for a variety of criminal and crime-adjacent reasons.
> They're Canadian citizens after all, not terrorists.
These are not mutually exclusive. You can be both a citizen of a country and a terrorist operating within that country. Most countries (including Australia) have histories of this.
How many buildings have the truckers torched? How many people have they injured? How can emergency powers be invoked against peaceful protests? Ideas are not violence.
Peaceful? Do you realize how loud those horns are? Some of them are using train horns, they are extremely loud. People can’t even get groceries. They are shitting on the sidewalks. They are harassing healthcare workers, women, anyone wearing masks…
Whether their accounts should be frozen is a valid debate to be had. But they’re far from well behaved at this point.
Do you expect a gathering of a ton of random people to remain 100% civil? Like that's not even true of small gatherings. And of course some have pooped on the sidewalks, there's droves of homeless etc. at the center of it. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.
Nope, I don't expect them to be 100% civil. I also don't go around telling people that point out that, in fact, they're not 100% civil are "making things up".
I can anticipate the reply, but there's been an attempt of at least one, possibly with ideas about a second.[1][2]
> How many people have they injured?
This is an interesting phrasing of this. It implies an assault without injury is not an worthy of consideration.
The actual answer is not entirely known by anyone outside law enforcement I would guess but there's been a few.[3][4][5]
> How can emergency powers be invoked against peaceful protests? Ideas are not violence.
Unless your definition of "peaceful" is "the majority of participants are not looting/destroying property or assaulting people", this is not a peaceful protest.
The ideas here are not coherent either, nor are the directed at where the changes can happen. As relates to the covid mandates, the Federal government actually only has powers over a handful of areas; the majority are held by the provinces. Indeed, the original precipitating mandate could be dropped tomorrow and it would change basically nothing at the borders because the US government also has the same mandates in place.
Guess it’s time to demand that all that non political stuff leave hacker news as it’s not called hacker tech? I’ll check back in a few months to see if it’s recovered or finished turning into Reddit.
Didn’t they fund Reddit? Trying to get their cash back I guess.
27 comments
[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 67.0 ms ] threadThis is exactly the kind of thing that people were worrying about Trump doing in 2016: breaking societal norms and acting like a strongman, and getting away with it because the legal framework assumed leaders would all act like gentlemen. It's what you hear about people like Orban and Poland's leader doing, ignoring convention to push their own agenda. And now it is happening in Canada
The right to trial by jury is only for criminal cases. The ninth amendment hasn't been incorporated to the States.
1. Ottawa police have basically put zero effort into doing anything about the nighttime noise or generally criminal behaviour of the "protestors."
2. The federal government should not be stepping in immediately to solve policing issues like this precisely until the situation becomes untenable. THAT would have been draconian and authoritarian.
3. Beyond the city police, the provinces themselves needed to precipitate asking for this in some way, or to appear completely nonresponsive. This is why you saw states of emergency in the City, then in the Province, and only then was the act engaged.
4. The law that was invoked was an (IMO) very well designed piece of legislation that was designed to replace something called the War Measures Act, which was abused by Trudeau senior to end a terrorism threat in Quebec. That overstep of federal authority essentially ensured that law would never remain on the books and it was later replaced with this act. This is why today, tomorrow, and through Monday, there are debates going on on the house floor around the invocation of the Emergencies Act, and if the whole of parliament doesn't agree they can simply end it Monday at the conclusion of the debate when they vote on it. These rules are all clearly spelled out in the legislation. There's also effectively a review process where if this is engaged they must review and continue to agree to keep it in force over time, meaning it could not be an indefinite thing unless the majority of MPs agreed to keep it in force.
#4 seems like a decent check on the action, but the action itself is repulsively technocratic - cutting citizens off from the necessary infrastructure of the banking system, by executive decree. And regardless of being heavy handed, it seems ineffectual for actually discouraging the protests and if anything might just increase their resolve.
This is not how Canada works unfortunately. Provinces there are essentially in control of everything and either have to make the requests for help or appear derelict enough in their duties for the federal government to step in.
Ottawa is on one side of a river which makes up the eastern border between Ontario and Quebec and a sizeable portion of the people who live and work there cross the river each day. In order to ask the Quebec police forces that are literally in zipline distance of the place this is happening (hyperbole but not by much[1]), Ottawa had to jump through a bunch of hoops, and basically this emergency act use allowed them to ask for help from someone other than Provincial (OPP) and Federal (RCMP) forces.
> Part of their actions should include holding the insubordinate and corrupt local police accountable. (Also note how I said the easiest thing gets used, not the most authoritarian)
This has actually been done. The police chief's been forced to resign, as have the city councilors who were running the police services board of the city (the leadership was essentially voted out and then a few more on the board resigned in protest).
The problem is these things take time. Had the police simply done their jobs from day 1 we wouldn't be here.
I have posted a great deal about this situation in the past weeks and I think I would actually be in favor of these political posts being removed from HN entirely for a couple of reasons:
1. Something that is VERY unusual crops up: lack of nuance or research on replies. This isn't unique to this event; I've noticed it about a few of the political/politicized threads in the past.
2. Making no assumptions about yourself, HN is primarily American and so everything is viewed through that lens. The problem with that is that not every country has the same history, culture, legal system, political system, etc. Invariably posters slip into "this is right, this is not" and there's no room for the middle ground.
[1]: https://interzip.ca/en/faq
You can bet your last dollar that these abilities won't even be applied evenly. Look at the difference in the way the Canadian police have handled these truckers vs how they handle protests by indigenous people.
If the cops aren't willing to use existing powers and laws, what is the point in giving them more powers? Doesn't make sense
> They're Canadian citizens after all, not terrorists.
These are not mutually exclusive. You can be both a citizen of a country and a terrorist operating within that country. Most countries (including Australia) have histories of this.
Whether their accounts should be frozen is a valid debate to be had. But they’re far from well behaved at this point.
And the rest of your post is made up.
And not one person involved in the protests has harassed a single person wearing a mask?
Tell me more about this amazingly peaceful protest without a single aspect of misbehavior. "Made up"? Citation needed.
I can anticipate the reply, but there's been an attempt of at least one, possibly with ideas about a second.[1][2]
> How many people have they injured?
This is an interesting phrasing of this. It implies an assault without injury is not an worthy of consideration. The actual answer is not entirely known by anyone outside law enforcement I would guess but there's been a few.[3][4][5]
> How can emergency powers be invoked against peaceful protests? Ideas are not violence.
Unless your definition of "peaceful" is "the majority of participants are not looting/destroying property or assaulting people", this is not a peaceful protest.
The ideas here are not coherent either, nor are the directed at where the changes can happen. As relates to the covid mandates, the Federal government actually only has powers over a handful of areas; the majority are held by the provinces. Indeed, the original precipitating mandate could be dropped tomorrow and it would change basically nothing at the borders because the US government also has the same mandates in place.
[1]: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-attemp...
[2]: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/mcleod-street-condo-residents...
[3]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hate-crime-hotline-ott...
[4]: https://bc.ctvnews.ca/surrey-rcmp-investigating-alleged-assa...
[5]: https://edmontonjournal.com/news/crime/trucker-charged-follo...
Didn’t they fund Reddit? Trying to get their cash back I guess.