I had serious neck problems for years then one change almost completely relieved them: going from multiple monitors to a single monitor. The horizontal neck swivel motion is very nasty.
Suboccipital release, SCM release, roller ball massage, posture correcting straps, staying hydrated (my rule: if I'm not drinking a whole gallon of water a day I'm probably not drinking enough), chin tuck exercises...
It's a constant struggle. The worst impact is probably phone use. Ultimately, I think the best path is to continually work on strengthening and stretching the neck muscles themselves, which reduces unconscious degenerative damage. The abs, chest and back muscles all have a part in the system too. If your chest muscles don't have enough elasticity, they contribute to pulling your head down further, and so on.
If all of that is too much to parse at once: do daily chin tucks.
While succint, this is the best comment I think of the thread. The suboccipital muscles getting tight, weak scalenes that get too tight while opposing structures get overstretched, and one more to add: shoulder posture and dysfunction contribute majorly to neck issues.
What's shoulder dysfunction? Well a hunched or otherwise unusual posture that computer and phone usage encourage lead to mobility issues with the shoulder that eventually lead to joint issues too.
Relevant to the neck is the fact that the scapula attaches to the neck at multiple points and can contribute majorly to a situation where the neck muscles are overstretched or overtightened perpetually, and in a hypertonic state.
Yes, pull-ups and gym are great suggestions (although push-ups are not a great suggestion as they can contribute to chest tightness and forward shoulder positioning). But as someone experienced in suffering as well as the gym, my message is it's a hella lotta more complex than mentioned in these threads.
Oh and eye alignment issues can contribute. If your eyes don't align you might stare at your screens in a tilted way...
This will be a pandemic in 10-20 years, as a high percentage of the population will be affected.
I'm middle-aged and an IT guy, so I'm unfortunately the future. I cared little what was happening to my vertebrae and shoulder complexes in my 20s.
Thank you for the positive feedback. You made my day.
Your breakdown is a good window into the complexity of the systems involved here, and what's at stake. One looming fear I have, is that tools like VR headsets will make the coming tide rip through more people, more brutally. Our necks are so fragile and have such a huge impact on our breathing, eyesight, cognitive function, etc etc, that it's hard to overstate the importance of taking care of them.
One slight advantage programmers and knowledge workers have is that looking at the involved parts can become a fun game. What exercises have the highest benefit? What makes me feel better? What should I avoid on the basis of anecdotes, personal experience and physiological science?
I've found that making little discoveries around how these muscles work had an oversized positive effect on my wellbeing, with little cost. For example, just yesterday I discovered the muscle that runs from the edge of our lips up to the outside corners of our eyes. Kneading them a bit, getting them released, has made me feel like I just installed a brand new jaw on my head. It's a weird type of fun haha
I use a monitor stand to bring the monitor to eye level and an adjustable desk to fix posture. Avoiding laptop-on-lap and phone screen viewing combined with stretching assigned by a physical therapist has helped a lot. There are some days when I can get a tension headache with only a few minutes in phone screen posture.
OSHA recommends having the top of your monitor at or below eye level. I used to do the opposite - I figured having a higher monitor would force me to look up which would keep my neck straighter, but it seems that it's actually better to keep your head looking a bit downwards - perhaps it's a more natural and relaxing position for your neck? In any case, lowering my monitor did seem to reduce my neck pain.
I also got a split keyboard which I think helped me improve my posture by allowing me to sit back more comfortably with my arms apart. I got a Dygma Raise but there are plenty of options and they're probably all fine.
Exercise also seems to help, especially shoulder/back exercise.
Absolutely agree with the split keyboard. I’ve always worried about something like RSI, but other than the occasional numbness or tingling it never presented an issue. Even so, I was concerned enough that I figured I’d try a split keyboard. I was sold pretty quickly, and now I won’t use a regular keyboard (or worse, a laptop keyboard) for longer than I have to.
I also got away from using a mouse. I was never comfortable using a wrist pad and as a result I’d experienced some wrist pain on and off when using a mouse. I switched to a trackpad and try to keep my hands on the keyboard as much as I can.
A standing desk helps here I think. I don’t find myself standing still at the desk for long (unless I have something to lean on like a perch chair), and about the time my legs start feeling stiff (20-30min), I just step away to grab a drink or something.
"Foundation training" from Eric Goodman has helped a lot. Plus getting a standing desk — I tend to slump in my chair after a while no matter what. I get pretty bad tailbone pain still when sitting slumped, so it's been better to stand for me.
I was beginning to have back pain this summer after working very long hours sitting and with a lot of stress, and I thought my general weakness and lack of exercise was to blame.
I started an 8-week push-up challenge in which I found my max amount of push-ups without stopping (30) and then did 4 times that many (120) in a row, however long it took, gradually reducing the rest time between the sets. I did this 4 days per week. After that process I gained a lot of strength in 8 weeks and ability to do 40 push-ups without stopping. I've now switched to doing my maximum once or twice per day and increasing by 5 every couple weeks. I'm currently at 70, having a hard time going higher, but really feel incredible level of upper body strength from neck to back to abdomen, and am being more careful with my food choices as well. I think I'm now ready to do some more varied exercises, including cardiovascular and other things that challenged me earlier.
I find as I'm getting older it's really not worth sacrificing your body for engineering gains, I have too many tech friends who have chronic and sometimes debilitating pain and injuries as a result of the career. What's the point of great accomplishments in technology, career, and wealth if you can't enjoy them because of a broken body?
I encourage everyone to find an exercise routine that fits your lifestyle. Push-ups were great for me because I needed no equipment and could fit it easily into my work from home day, and target the areas of my body that were feeling weak.
If you're doing a bunch of chest exercises (which is great), I highly encourage you to stay balanced by working the opposing muscles as well, lest you end up with over-strung chest muscles that draw your shoulders forward.
Exercises like 15-20x3 lightweight face pulls are perfect. Another is shoulder IYTs. Stretching is also great.
Both are exercises which work the deltoids or rear deltoids.
First one is pulling something on shoulder level towards your face (hence face pull).
Second one is making the I, Y & T letters by putting your arms above your heat and literally mimicking the letters, where T means arms stretched to the side on shoulder level.
I used to have horrible neck and shoulder pain, mine was also due to bad posture. The issue was that I was using a knee-chair, thinking that it would be better than a regular chair. It was at first. However, eventually I go into the habit of kicking a foot up on one of the knee-wrungs, my posture didn’t improve and I’d unconsciously compensate some other way. Naturally, the neck and shoulder pain got worse.
Now I use a couple of standing desks ([0] and [1]) and a couple of those “standing/perch chairs” for lack of a better description ([2] and [3]). Simply standing without the perch chairs worked too, but I found I was more productive and less likely to walk away from the desk if I could occasionally lean back.
I also stopped using a mouse and went with a trackpad, alone with a split keyboard (ergodox classic). In my case the mouse and keyboard change had a much more noticeable, positive, effect than I would have thought.
I agree with others here in their recommendation to talk to an ergonomic expert if you can. I didn’t and consequently it took longer to figure out what worked. Since you’re working at your desk for potentially hours at a time, don’t be afraid to invest in a decent set up. It’s worth it.
As an aside, I picked up a leanchair [4] since it seemed like a good idea. I liked it at first, and you might consider it. However, I got in the habit (again) of kicking a foot against the leg/foot rest piece which seemed to shift my hips a little and absolutely beat up my lower back. I got rid of it as soon as I made the connection.
I sit all day with a back strap (NadaChair brand, but there are many cheaper knockoffs that also work fine) which enforces pretty decent posture. Monitors are on VESA mounts with carefully selected height. Split ergo keyboard so shoulders are nice and wide. Seems like a lot of hassle but once you have it setup it just works.
I had some neck problems last year which were worst after sleeping. This led me to believe that my sleeping position was to blame, so I focused on my position and pillow. I've never really liked "normal" pillows, but always had them. I kept trying to find the perfect one. I found a nice (quite expensive) memory foam pillow, but at some point even it was not comfortable. I would try to position more support under the neck and less under the head, with a lower overall profile. Eventually I even tried using a rolled up blanket as a pliable pillow that I could position however I wanted. This helped, but the pain still persisted.
One day, I decided to try something entirely different. I got a knee pillow - the kind made from foam for people to put between their knees at night. It was quite low and very small, but the concave cradle made for the knees seemed perfect for my head. Lo and behold - it worked! My neck pain did not disappear right away (at that point my neck would hurt through the day), but it did not keep getting worse anymore in the morning, allowing the pain to heal over time. The knee pillow is not very durable. The one I have has snapped in half recently, but I actually still like it since it makes the pillow even more customizable so that I can get into a comfortable position when I move during the night. I think I'll need to replace it soon, but they are so cheap that I don't mind the idea of getting a new one every few months.
When Googling for what that is, they look very similar to the foam pillow I tried. It was the closest I got to something comfortable, but in the end still not as good as the knee pillow. I'd probably be able to find a comfortable cervical pillow, but looking at the prices the knee pillow just seems like a much cheaper option that works just as well in my situation.
No neck issues, but lower back and core muscles are a problem, simply from too much sitting.
Physio sessions gave me some tips for how to relieve the pain when it flares up, and going to the gym for the last couple of months seems to have helped a lot.
Can't say I recommend a standing desk - I have an adjustable motorised one and while I do use it sometimes, it seems to just shift pain from my back to my legs rather than giving any actual relief.
Please never, ever, never do head rolls!!! Neck rolls are a murder to your cervical spine. Do three plane neck movements instead. First plane is left-right. Second plane is up-down (so tuck your chin in, then tilt your head back). Third plane is tilted, i.e. tilt head to one side without twisting, then to the other.
My neck is ok. I loosely follow all of that boring ergonomics advice where your eyes should usually be in line with the top of your monitor, have an appropriate adjustable chair, don't just work on a laptop screen get a proper monitor with a stand and keyboard and mouse in the correct positions, you should be able to comfortably put your feet on the floor, etc.
I'm not in that position 100% of the time, sometimes I like to be able to lean back and stretch my legs out a bit, etc. and I do use my laptop screen as a second screen. The 'good ergonomic posture' position is just the default position I have my desk configured to.
edit: another thing that I might be missing here as well is that I try to walk a decent amount as a part of my daily routine and get at least some (albeit sporadic) more intense exercise in as well. But during walking I often make a conscious decision to fix my posture which I think goes some way to maintaining an ok posture at my desk as well.
If you have access to the gym: Dumbbell Pull-Over, Farmer's Walk, Rack Pull, Planks. But most importantly, don't give up. Lifting weights can help you more than you think. I've had issues that I thought would never go away, but they did. It took a lot of experimentation until I found out what works for me, and those exercises might not necessarily work for you, but some other will.
Pull-ups. If you work from home you can get bars that attach to doorways.
If you've never done pull-ups before, you won't manage to actually pull yourself up. However you can "hang" which stretches out the shoulder and kneck muscles.
Once I managed to do a number of pull-ups, all my kneck and shoulders pain vanished.
I used to get back pain once or twice a year, but not since I started (very casually) doing pull-ups a few years ago.
You can jump/step up so your chin is at the bar, and then lower yourself down as slowly as possible. Watch out for the muscle pain the next day though… and definitely stop if you don’t have the strength to slow yourself down. Listen to your body, muscle pain is ok, joint pain means stop immediately.
Just ten minutes most weekdays was enough to make me noticeably less skinny and stop the back pain.
"If you work from home you can get bars that attach to doorways."
Careful with those. If they fall off while you're doing your pull-up (which has happened to some people), you could seriously injure yourself.
I personally prefer to take a jog to a local park that has a playground and do my pullups on the heavy-duty metal bars they have there. Those are never going to fall off.
Buy and use a standing desk. 1 hour of gym will not fix sitting 8 hours a days. I did that as an experiment in covid home office time and after a few months it fixed all my back and neck problems.
For many more details I can recommend
Starret(2016): Deskbound: Standing Up to a Sitting World
Ikea Skarsta: because you don't need an electric high adjustment, if you stand most of the time.
In addition I bought an Ikea Lidkullen seat, which I use when I can't stand it anymore (pun intended).
However especially for your neck it is important to the position your monitor in a way that you can look at it without bending your neck downwards or upwards also with a standing desk. That is why I have a monitor stand (I use a very cheap one called "monkey desk" made from cardboard, but there are probably better ones out there) also on my standing desk.
And if you stand a very long time it makes sense to invest in a floor mat. I use a puzzle floor mat similar to https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/foam-puzzle-mats . They are cheap and effective.
Surprised I haven't seen anyone mention Stronglifts 5x5. It's pretty popular here. It isn't perfect, but it was the key for me getting started lifting regularly. The gamification is really effective.
Invest a few hours reading and watching the videos up front, and push through the first few weeks, and you won't regret it.
seconded. lifting weights completely changed my life for the better. used to have wrist, neck, and arm pain pretty constantly when working. now i barely have any unless im pushing myself way too hard. 5x5 is great place to start or 5,3,1
63 comments
[ 0.23 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadWhat did I do? Drink water! Holy shit did that fix it almost immediately.
Buy a half a gallon metal jug and sip that all day until you finish it. Instant fix.
It's a constant struggle. The worst impact is probably phone use. Ultimately, I think the best path is to continually work on strengthening and stretching the neck muscles themselves, which reduces unconscious degenerative damage. The abs, chest and back muscles all have a part in the system too. If your chest muscles don't have enough elasticity, they contribute to pulling your head down further, and so on.
If all of that is too much to parse at once: do daily chin tucks.
What's shoulder dysfunction? Well a hunched or otherwise unusual posture that computer and phone usage encourage lead to mobility issues with the shoulder that eventually lead to joint issues too.
Relevant to the neck is the fact that the scapula attaches to the neck at multiple points and can contribute majorly to a situation where the neck muscles are overstretched or overtightened perpetually, and in a hypertonic state.
Yes, pull-ups and gym are great suggestions (although push-ups are not a great suggestion as they can contribute to chest tightness and forward shoulder positioning). But as someone experienced in suffering as well as the gym, my message is it's a hella lotta more complex than mentioned in these threads.
Oh and eye alignment issues can contribute. If your eyes don't align you might stare at your screens in a tilted way...
This will be a pandemic in 10-20 years, as a high percentage of the population will be affected.
I'm middle-aged and an IT guy, so I'm unfortunately the future. I cared little what was happening to my vertebrae and shoulder complexes in my 20s.
Your breakdown is a good window into the complexity of the systems involved here, and what's at stake. One looming fear I have, is that tools like VR headsets will make the coming tide rip through more people, more brutally. Our necks are so fragile and have such a huge impact on our breathing, eyesight, cognitive function, etc etc, that it's hard to overstate the importance of taking care of them.
One slight advantage programmers and knowledge workers have is that looking at the involved parts can become a fun game. What exercises have the highest benefit? What makes me feel better? What should I avoid on the basis of anecdotes, personal experience and physiological science?
I've found that making little discoveries around how these muscles work had an oversized positive effect on my wellbeing, with little cost. For example, just yesterday I discovered the muscle that runs from the edge of our lips up to the outside corners of our eyes. Kneading them a bit, getting them released, has made me feel like I just installed a brand new jaw on my head. It's a weird type of fun haha
I also got a split keyboard which I think helped me improve my posture by allowing me to sit back more comfortably with my arms apart. I got a Dygma Raise but there are plenty of options and they're probably all fine.
Exercise also seems to help, especially shoulder/back exercise.
https://www.osha.gov/etools/computer-workstations/components...
I also got away from using a mouse. I was never comfortable using a wrist pad and as a result I’d experienced some wrist pain on and off when using a mouse. I switched to a trackpad and try to keep my hands on the keyboard as much as I can.
I started an 8-week push-up challenge in which I found my max amount of push-ups without stopping (30) and then did 4 times that many (120) in a row, however long it took, gradually reducing the rest time between the sets. I did this 4 days per week. After that process I gained a lot of strength in 8 weeks and ability to do 40 push-ups without stopping. I've now switched to doing my maximum once or twice per day and increasing by 5 every couple weeks. I'm currently at 70, having a hard time going higher, but really feel incredible level of upper body strength from neck to back to abdomen, and am being more careful with my food choices as well. I think I'm now ready to do some more varied exercises, including cardiovascular and other things that challenged me earlier.
I find as I'm getting older it's really not worth sacrificing your body for engineering gains, I have too many tech friends who have chronic and sometimes debilitating pain and injuries as a result of the career. What's the point of great accomplishments in technology, career, and wealth if you can't enjoy them because of a broken body?
I encourage everyone to find an exercise routine that fits your lifestyle. Push-ups were great for me because I needed no equipment and could fit it easily into my work from home day, and target the areas of my body that were feeling weak.
Exercises like 15-20x3 lightweight face pulls are perfect. Another is shoulder IYTs. Stretching is also great.
First one is pulling something on shoulder level towards your face (hence face pull).
Second one is making the I, Y & T letters by putting your arms above your heat and literally mimicking the letters, where T means arms stretched to the side on shoulder level.
Now I use a couple of standing desks ([0] and [1]) and a couple of those “standing/perch chairs” for lack of a better description ([2] and [3]). Simply standing without the perch chairs worked too, but I found I was more productive and less likely to walk away from the desk if I could occasionally lean back.
I also stopped using a mouse and went with a trackpad, alone with a split keyboard (ergodox classic). In my case the mouse and keyboard change had a much more noticeable, positive, effect than I would have thought.
I agree with others here in their recommendation to talk to an ergonomic expert if you can. I didn’t and consequently it took longer to figure out what worked. Since you’re working at your desk for potentially hours at a time, don’t be afraid to invest in a decent set up. It’s worth it.
As an aside, I picked up a leanchair [4] since it seemed like a good idea. I liked it at first, and you might consider it. However, I got in the habit (again) of kicking a foot against the leg/foot rest piece which seemed to shift my hips a little and absolutely beat up my lower back. I got rid of it as soon as I made the connection.
(Forgive the order, my iPad’s not cooperating)
[2] https://ergoimpact.com/ (kinda pricey)
[3] https://www.amazon.com/VIVO-Ergonomic-Adjustable-Anti-Fatigu... (less pricey, quality less than above, but otherwise as good)
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Ergotron-Computer-Adjustable-Height-2... (daily driver)
[1] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/skarsta-trotten-desk-sit-stand-... (hand crank version - I only ever keep it at standing height, so the crank never gets used)
[4] https://leanchair.com/ (heard good things, but didn’t work for me)
One day, I decided to try something entirely different. I got a knee pillow - the kind made from foam for people to put between their knees at night. It was quite low and very small, but the concave cradle made for the knees seemed perfect for my head. Lo and behold - it worked! My neck pain did not disappear right away (at that point my neck would hurt through the day), but it did not keep getting worse anymore in the morning, allowing the pain to heal over time. The knee pillow is not very durable. The one I have has snapped in half recently, but I actually still like it since it makes the pillow even more customizable so that I can get into a comfortable position when I move during the night. I think I'll need to replace it soon, but they are so cheap that I don't mind the idea of getting a new one every few months.
Physio sessions gave me some tips for how to relieve the pain when it flares up, and going to the gym for the last couple of months seems to have helped a lot.
Can't say I recommend a standing desk - I have an adjustable motorised one and while I do use it sometimes, it seems to just shift pain from my back to my legs rather than giving any actual relief.
Tilt forward and back, 10 times, left to right. Then head rolls.
I'm not in that position 100% of the time, sometimes I like to be able to lean back and stretch my legs out a bit, etc. and I do use my laptop screen as a second screen. The 'good ergonomic posture' position is just the default position I have my desk configured to.
edit: another thing that I might be missing here as well is that I try to walk a decent amount as a part of my daily routine and get at least some (albeit sporadic) more intense exercise in as well. But during walking I often make a conscious decision to fix my posture which I think goes some way to maintaining an ok posture at my desk as well.
- Stretch multiple times per day. Your neck, your back, your legs, all of it.
- Exercise. Especially lift weights targeting muscles in the affected areas.
- Take anti-inflammatory drugs as needed. They can help put your discs back where they belong.
- Get an MRI. This can help determine the underlying structural issues.
- See a physical therapist / doctor.
If you've never done pull-ups before, you won't manage to actually pull yourself up. However you can "hang" which stretches out the shoulder and kneck muscles.
Once I managed to do a number of pull-ups, all my kneck and shoulders pain vanished.
You can jump/step up so your chin is at the bar, and then lower yourself down as slowly as possible. Watch out for the muscle pain the next day though… and definitely stop if you don’t have the strength to slow yourself down. Listen to your body, muscle pain is ok, joint pain means stop immediately.
Just ten minutes most weekdays was enough to make me noticeably less skinny and stop the back pain.
Careful with those. If they fall off while you're doing your pull-up (which has happened to some people), you could seriously injure yourself.
I personally prefer to take a jog to a local park that has a playground and do my pullups on the heavy-duty metal bars they have there. Those are never going to fall off.
For many more details I can recommend
Starret(2016): Deskbound: Standing Up to a Sitting World
https://www.amazon.com/Deskbound-Standing-Up-Sitting-World/d...
ive looked at some from uplift which seemed kinda pricy.
not sure if i can trust the ones from amazon.
In addition I bought an Ikea Lidkullen seat, which I use when I can't stand it anymore (pun intended).
However especially for your neck it is important to the position your monitor in a way that you can look at it without bending your neck downwards or upwards also with a standing desk. That is why I have a monitor stand (I use a very cheap one called "monkey desk" made from cardboard, but there are probably better ones out there) also on my standing desk.
And if you stand a very long time it makes sense to invest in a floor mat. I use a puzzle floor mat similar to https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/foam-puzzle-mats . They are cheap and effective.
Invest a few hours reading and watching the videos up front, and push through the first few weeks, and you won't regret it.
When I just started lifting, I would be flopped over on my desk exhausted. This ironically made my problems worse.
But now I sit much better without thinking. There is muscle to support my back and head.