Ask HN: I have received a Cease And Desist letter. What to do?
I am Robbert, creator of JavaScript Excel-like data table library DataGridXL (https://datagridxl.com). I made this component since similar products are quite slow & unreliable.
I just released version 2 of the product and decided to add a few "Comparison Pages" to my website, to show visitors why my product is better (when it comes to performance & reliability).
Now, the most well known JavaScript Excel-like data table libary has sent me a Cease And Desist Letter by email (twice) demanding that I take this Compare page (https://www.datagridxl.com/features/compare-handsontable) offline. I am not much of a legal rights expert, but so far I have ignored it. I can publish whatever I want, right? Freedom of speech?
So far I have just laughed it off and considered it very childish for a 20 person company to try to pressure me into taking this page offline. However, I could use the advice of the Hacker News community.
What should I do here? Ignore or take action?
45 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 99.1 ms ] threadI just released version 2 of the product and decided to add a few "Comparison Pages" to my website, to show visitors why my product is better (when it comes to performance & reliability).
Now, the most well known JavaScript Excel-like data table libary has sent me a Cease And Desist Letter by email (twice) demanding that I take this Compare page (https://www.datagridxl.com/features/compare-handsontable) offline. I am not much of a legal rights expert, but so far I have ignored it. I can publish whatever I want, right? Freedom of speech?
So far I have just laughed it off and considered it very childish for a 20 person company to try to pressure me into taking this page offline. However, I could use the advice of the Hacker News community.
What should I do here? Ignore or take action?
There are all sorts of variables. For instance, if an entity is based in the UK they can sue under libel laws that most people think are unreasonable. I think those guys are in Poland so maybe they aren't so dangerous.
Personally I hate the meme image, I think it's in poor taste and you should get rid of it.
There are also some claims that seem dangerous such as "Choose Handsontable and you're guaranteed to slow down your web app and upset your users" - even without being a lawyer, you could just take a moment to think of how often you see claims like this made about competitors by large companies (never) and it should be clear that there's probably a good reason why.
For that matter I have a high opinion of many software firms in Poland (CD Projekt, some outsourcers.)
If the OP kept to things that were factual they'd be better off.
I read it as simply an introduction rather than an implication. I think you're reading far too much in to this.
That said, personally I'd never slag off any competition, no matter how bad I think their product is. Focus on your own strengths rather than your competitor's weaknesses; if it's really that much better, people will figure it out for themselves. I'm not wildly impressed by this page overall.
You're right: I mention Country A & Country B purely as background info but I do understand when readers think I'm somehow dissing Country B (as the entire article is all about "How DGXL is better than HOT").
Based on your feedback and other comments on this thread I have decided to take the page offline. Not to give in to the lawyer's letter, but because I see now that the article is bad taste and frankly unnecessary.
I am not trying to say anything with country A & country B, I wrote it purely as background info, but I do understand if people interpret it differently, as the rest of the article is quite harsh. It's basically saying that anything to do with their product is bad. Absolutely nothing wrong with Poland.
You're right about these claims. Too grandiose. Based on your feedback and other comments that I have received I have decided to take the article as it is offline. I will reupload a more neutral toned article, perhaps a mere comparison table later. Thank you for your comment.
I will get rid of the meme image. I had fun creating it, but I should have left it on my hard drive.
Any advice you receive here should contain a variation one of the following disclaimers:
1. I am not a lawyer. YMMV.
2. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice.
As such, while asking here might net some useful information, you're better off understanding the law within your jurisdiction (based on the site linked, that's the Netherlands, yes?) as it relates to whatever your competitor is complaining about.
Since you link to what appears to be visuals from your competitor's app, there may be copyright issues and/or issues with using their platform in ways that are incompatible with their licence/TOS. Which could open you up to civil liability.
N.B.: I am not a lawyer.
The best advice I can give you is consult an attorney. One who will say: "I am a lawyer. In fact, I am your lawyer and this is legal advice."
That's probably not what you wanted to hear and I'm just some rando on the intertubes, but that's my take. YMMV.
Based on that feedback I am taking the article offline and will rewrite it/rethink my "marketing" approach.
I believe you're right about them not being happy with me using their logo. I am still very much a designer that is looking to make things pretty. Will take the logos off the website, thanks for your advice!
I hope that satisfies your competitor. I'm not familiar with NL or PL law, but I'm sure there are ways to present your comparison that won't run afoul of them.
>I believe you're right about them not being happy with me using their logo. I am still very much a designer that is looking to make things pretty. Will take the logos off the website, thanks for your advice!
Good luck. I hope you find success with your product!
If yes, hire a lawyer.
If no, it is an opportunity to refine your message by deletion and focus on making your project better by something other than comparison.
Good luck.
Behavior like this will definitely color my decision-making process to use their products in the future.
Thanks for sharing.
> I can publish whatever I want, right? Freedom of speech?
Not exactly. For a clear cut example, something like "Competitor X has a rootkit which will upload all your nudes to Facebook" is libel (unless they really do that) and you'd lose that case in almost any jurisdiction.
Even far less blatant statements like "is slow" or "is less secure" can run afoul there. Libel laws vary tremendously by jurisdiction.
There's a separate issue also of advertising standards; many EU nations, including I believe .nl have laws requiring fair and honest presentation of the product and competitors. And they can be pretty strict. There have been countless court cases and tribunal rulings on "the fastest network" or "fewer dropped calls" being dishonest advertising with mobile service providers, for example. Often boils down to: can you prove the claim?
In some jurisdictions it can be libel or something legally similar, even if they really do that. In the one case I know (Japan), things change, though, after the justice system has issued a sentence.
The only sensible time I would see this being legitimate is if it was something secret/confidential (but still legal) being made public (and viewed as being revealed maliciously, depending on content/context); I doubt it would be considered libellous however (but if you have a reference, I'd like to read up on it).
http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/law/detail_main?re=&...
Chapter XXXIV Crimes against Reputation
(Defamation)
Article 230 (1) A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than 3 years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.
(2) A person who defames a dead person shall not be punished unless such defamation is based on a falsehood.
Based on your advice and other comments I have received in this thread I have decided to take the article offline. Will later replace it with a more neutral no-nonsense comparison table, as I still think it's helpful for customers to get an overview on "why choose DGXL instead of X", but leaving out the grandiose statements.
I would start with removing anything that talks bad about Handsontable.
Before:
"Fun fact: Handsontable's poor performance and reliability was the reason for our CEO to start building DataGridXL!"
"Choose Handsontable and you're guaranteed to slow down your web app and upset your users. But hey, your app might just work on IE6."
"Handsontable on the other hand presents a barebone grid which is a little surprising for 2.2MB of code." <= Specifically the word "barebone", which could be considered derogatory.
"Something's definitely off here."
"Yes, but weird"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After:
"Fun fact: Our CEO built DataGridXL because he wanted more performance and higher reliability than he could find on the market, and now he wants to share it with you."
"We believe our product is superior to our competitors and offers better results to your users"
"Handsontable on the other hand shows a basic grid which is a little surprising for 2.2MB of code."
" " <= just remove this line
Change the table entry to say, "Modern Undo and Redo" and change the grid result to "No"
Finally I would talk to a lawyer either before or after making changes like this to make sure that you're in the clear.
Based on your comments and other feedback I have received in this thread I have decided to take the page offline and put back a simple comparison table page later. I might re-introduce the article text after I have rewritten it in a more neutral tone of voice, like in your examples. Thank you!
Present your product in the best possible light without lying about it. If there are stark measurable differences between you and a competitor and you can record and validate them, (i.e., DataGridXL can parse this common operation on 100,000 table rows in X seconds, which is Y% faster than HandsonTable on the same machine!), that is perfectly fine. (Use OBS Studio to video the results and save it, and should they take you to court you can use it to prove that you did not lie one Jot or one Iota.)
It's only Libel if it is false, so if you know it is not false and can prove it, then you're in the clear, but smack talk can and will get you smacked down in court.
Also, it might be a good idea to also compare your software to a third product if you can find one that you also outclass. That shows a touch of impartiality so that it doesn't read as if you're picking on HandsonTable. If not, that's ok, but it's an idea worth considering.
Thank you!
Maybe you do need a lawyer in this instance, maybe not, but if you're committed to this style when dealing with competitors you'll likely need a lawyer in the future.
Based on your feedback and other comments in this thread, I have realized that the jokey/cocky tone of voice (including the article's images) is damaging what I am trying to build, more than it helps what I am trying to build/communicate.
I am taking the article offline and will later replace it with a more mature no-nonsense comparison table.
- using a meme does not scream "professionalism" to me; kinda borders on childish in my view
- the whole "made in Country A vs. Country B.": I generally do not care, but seeing this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
- "created in 2020s vs. when IE6 was still a thing": to me, older stuff means it's been time tested; the tone makes it sound like cockiness about the superiority of your product that has yet to be proven
- You include a comparison chart on features that both do/do not support, which is good; but the wording on some rows is questionable, namely "Scrolling": "Great vs. Bad" is not at all objective. Additionally, I will decide what I prefer; a better description would be "Row/column-based vs. Smooth" (and for the record, I prefer Handsontable's smooth scroll)
- Pointless other jabs: "Choose Handsontable and you're guaranteed to slow down your web app and upset your users." Is this a money-back guarantee you offer? This alone is likely what got you that letter (and to be frank, I think you're lucky that's all you've gotten so far).
- "Freedom of speech" only applies to government censorship; stuff like libel/slander still applies for private entities - your "Freedom [to publish whatever I want (about those guys)]" is equal to their "Freedom to sue you on whatever you wrote about them".
> What should I do here? Ignore or take action?
Take action--based on the feedback given to you here (ie. you'd be foolish to take action against them).
One thing I'd like to mention; I wrote about country A & B as background info, not trying to say that country A is somehow better than country B. (I think it's quite cool that this well known digital product comes from Europe/Poland, and is not some VC Silicon Valley thing.)
But I do understand that this might come off as some kind of diss, because of the other things that I am writing about the product.
I agree that the article and the way that it is written is childish (and disrespectful). Thank you for pointing that out. I was inspired by the chapter "Pick a Fight" from Basecamp's Getting Real book (https://basecamp.com/gettingreal/02.5-have-an-enemy), but I should have picked a more mature tone of voice. My product does not really need this "cocky" comparison article, and I see now that it hurts my own offering more than it helps it.
Based on your feedback and the other comments that I have received in this thread, I have decided to take the article offline. I will modify it and re-upload it as a fair no-nonsense comparison table.
(I was/am not planning to take any action against them.)
One more time, thank you for your feedback. It really helps.
I would tell him that the comparison page is staying up, but if you want to request SPECIFIC changes on anything defamatory then invite him to enumerate his concerns. The valid concerns you genuinely change-- then post your email exchange for more marketing clout :D
I believe that in their Cease and Desist Letter they did write about 5 or 6 specific things that they believed were not fair, and they wanted to have changed. (That letter was a response to the previous version of this comparison article.)
Something like:
"In the article, you say that our product is slow and yours is fast, but it's not fair as your product displays only 50 cells in its viewport and our product 100 cells."
(... and 4 or 5 other bullet points commenting on things that they did not agree with)
This is the first time I have ever received such a letter and at first I thought it was some kind of joke. And perhaps in a way it is.
For a moment I did think like you: I am going to make this comparison page even worse for them by adding disclaimers to the article like: "HoT requested us to modify this example so that their product is a little less slow..."
But I never did and I am glad I did not. But I am happy that you appreciate this marketing effort ;-)
I was a little bored with spending all this time creating a professional looking website and perfecting it and I wanted to stir things up a bit. Hence the meme image and the entire article.
Based on the feedback I have received in this thread I have decided to take the article offline. I will replace it at a late date with a more neutral comparison table and I might put the meme-image on that page. In that way, it won't be too much, the meme image should perfectly balance out the boring comparison table.
When you compare products, do it properly. as far as I know, Handsontable releases a new version every now and then and corrects bugs, including performance.