The Nazi problem in Croatia definitely fits what the article is describing as found in Ukraine. In the US however, it's hardly comparable or the same thing and the Guardian article has been debunked to death (As the orange man already condemned them years ago which that was cut out by the media).
Such a lovely person. How could somebody forget, when he invited his opponents to use the same concentration camp era symbol, to target his political opponents.
Conspiracy theories and strange similarities or associations isn't definitive evidence that supports the 'Trump is an actual neo-Nazi' claim. It's just pure speculation.
Perhaps, this is what happens when you keep chasing Nazi conspiracy theories everywhere, especially from Nazi historians dedicated to looking at dog-whistles, symbols etc to associate a person or group to being a 'true' neo-Nazi.
I can't believe anyone still brings up Trump and a "refusal" to denounce white supremacy. It seems to me that there were so many opportunities to criticise Trump - as there is for any president, to be fair - that I have to wonder why the media persists in undermining their own reputation with this kind of nonsense instead, but it must be because it works.
Yes, there are transcripts[1] that make clear that the media were not being honest. Let's take the very first line of the link you've provided:
> President Trump defended the white nationalists who protested in Charlottesville on Tuesday, saying they included “some very fine people,”
He did no such thing:
> THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.
So before he makes the "fine people on both sides" comment he makes clear - several times, in fact - that there were not only alt-left and alt-right at that event but others who were either protesting the statues or defending them that were "ordinary" people i.e. fine people.
Again, how did you not know this? You are so active politically, if we take your numerous HN submissions into account, that I find it hard to believe you have missed this.
If you don't want to defend the claim you made and I responded to, that's fine, I've made my point. However, to try and shift the goalposts while smearing me isn't fine.
You don't seem like the average HNer from either your post history nor your behaviour in this very thread. I'm not sure what to make of it, but please, don't continue in this vein.
My original claim, and you just have to follow the thread to see it, is that multiple countries, any democracy, have their Nazi sympathizers. I provided two quotes one
from an example from Croatia and another from one of the most repellent
individuals ever to set foot in US politics.
You decided to comment on my post history, of behaviour, but I will
accept the claim I am not your normal HN:-)
But hey let's keep on the direction you initiated. That Donald Trump is just
a misquoted, misunderstood, unfairly portrayed in the media, fine person.
It's exactly his claim....
> But hey let's keep on the direction you initiated. That Donald Trump is just a misquoted, misunderstood, unfairly portrayed in the media, fine person. It's exactly his claim....
That is what is known as a straw man.
You posted something that was easily disproved by video evidence. You then posted something else which was easily disproved by a transcript of the actual exchange instead of one filtered by a journalist that clearly was as interested as you are in truth. You're not interested in whether your claims are correct or not, you'll simply move on to the next one, and I'm not interested in that as I don't have an axe to grind.
> You decided to comment on my post history, of behaviour, but I will accept the claim I am not your normal HN:-)
Yes, because it's strange, I'd expect it of an activist on Twitter. I do hope that you're not the beginning of a change in the kind of people posting here.
Heck, in NL we have them in Parliament. Let's hope Putin doesn't come here to denazify us. On top of that: Russia most likely has more Neo Nazi's in Moscow than in all of Ukraine, this is just one giant distraction from what matters: that Russia has invaded another sovereign European country.
A pretext, but that has nothing to do with you posting it here, that is a distraction. Ukraine currently has a Russian problem, the Nazi problem there - and elsewhere - should be dealt with but it can wait until the shells stop flying and there is - hopefully - a Ukraine left.
When you're fighting an invasion of your country, its a bad time to quibble about the ideological purity of the other people on your side of the line.
It really is possible to find shared goals and cooperate on achieving them with people who do not totally agree with you. Once the immediate threat is addressed, those people might be the next item on the agenda; but this is "stand together or fall separately" territory.
That may be reasonable; I think it's important to consider how any party's involvement will be remembered as well, though. What groups will be glorified? Will that affect the way that those groups behave, what they feel proud about, and how they are treated in future?
There are a lot of roles required in successfully defending against an invasion -- maintenance, transport, heavy lifting, fighting, cooking; to name a few. Effective task assignment can be a resilience multiplier in the moment and also has a long-term echo.
just had to read through your comments to see that you are Russia supporter. I'm Jewish and I can tell you that the president wouldn't never win the election there with 70% of support if the nazi problem there was the biggest problem in the Ukraine. Antisemitism is part of Nazism. There is no Nazism without Antisemitism.
If there is Nazism in the Ukraine as in any other eastern country? Definitely, including Russia. Is that a reason to remove the rights of the Ukraine to exist? For sure not!
> just have to read through your comments to see that you are Russia supporter.
wut
> I'm Jewish
That's my favorite argument in internet discussions: "I'm Ukrainian and I don't support my government; I'm Russian and I hate Putin; I'm a liberal, but Trump is a great leader; I'm Jewish and..."
> Antisemitism is part of Nazism. There is no Nazism without Antisemitism.
Nazism is not about jews, it's about supremacy of the nazis nation, whatever nation it is, over other nations.
> Is that a reason to remove the rights of the Ukraine to exist? For sure not!
I actually answered you, not the article. Yo wrote:
"I don't think that supporting nazis with arms for a decade and training them to fight is a good idea and ukrainian nazis are not on my "side of the line". I have enough of them where I live, thank you very much. "Immediate threat" my ass."
How jews fighting the Putin's invasion justifies supplying nazis with arms? Maybe it's self-explanatory for you, but i have no idea what do those people have in their heads. It's a free country, they can do what they want, i dont care
> It's hard to understand when you don't quote what you are answering
No it's not. If i want to comment the linked article, i comment directly under the article. If I want to answer you, I reply to you. That's how threaded forums work.
Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? You've been doing it quite a lot lately. In fact it looks like you've been using HN primarily for this, which is a line at which we ban accounts. See these links for explanation:
Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? You've been doing it quite a lot lately. In fact it looks like you've been using HN primarily for this, which is a line at which we ban accounts. See these links for explanation:
That's not how it works. It's not the topic that's at fault—it's accounts that break the site guidelines.
It's possible to discuss the topic while remaining thoughtful, substantive, not descending into attack, and so on. Not that it's easy, but plenty of users are managing it, and their posts don't need to be flagged.
> When you're fighting an invasion of your country, its a bad time to quibble about the ideological purity of the other people on your side of the line.
Unless who is trying to propagate this information, works together or for Russia.
38 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 94.9 ms ] threadLike QE, inflation and gas prices which are masked with this gigantic and enormously important military conflict? I agree
"Son of KGB agent handed a seat in the Lords"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-...
lol
So this is half whataboutism.
https://hyperallergic.com/573716/trumps-sinister-appropriati...
Perhaps, this is what happens when you keep chasing Nazi conspiracy theories everywhere, especially from Nazi historians dedicated to looking at dog-whistles, symbols etc to associate a person or group to being a 'true' neo-Nazi.
Still Whataboutism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0cMmBvqWc
"Trump Defends White-Nationalist Protesters: 'Some Very Fine People on Both Sides" https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-d...
Did the media made that one also?
Yes, there are transcripts[1] that make clear that the media were not being honest. Let's take the very first line of the link you've provided:
> President Trump defended the white nationalists who protested in Charlottesville on Tuesday, saying they included “some very fine people,”
He did no such thing:
> THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.
So before he makes the "fine people on both sides" comment he makes clear - several times, in fact - that there were not only alt-left and alt-right at that event but others who were either protesting the statues or defending them that were "ordinary" people i.e. fine people.
Again, how did you not know this? You are so active politically, if we take your numerous HN submissions into account, that I find it hard to believe you have missed this.
[1] https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trum...
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-trump-racism/fact-...
EDIT: You removed your misquote of Trump and now added another quote
You don't seem like the average HNer from either your post history nor your behaviour in this very thread. I'm not sure what to make of it, but please, don't continue in this vein.
You decided to comment on my post history, of behaviour, but I will accept the claim I am not your normal HN:-)
But hey let's keep on the direction you initiated. That Donald Trump is just a misquoted, misunderstood, unfairly portrayed in the media, fine person. It's exactly his claim....
How difficult could it be?
"Take A Side, Mr. President: Nazis Or Not Nazis"
https://youtu.be/Q4sCA3QFqT8
"An Oral History of Trump's Bigotry"
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-r...
That is what is known as a straw man.
You posted something that was easily disproved by video evidence. You then posted something else which was easily disproved by a transcript of the actual exchange instead of one filtered by a journalist that clearly was as interested as you are in truth. You're not interested in whether your claims are correct or not, you'll simply move on to the next one, and I'm not interested in that as I don't have an axe to grind.
> You decided to comment on my post history, of behaviour, but I will accept the claim I am not your normal HN:-)
Yes, because it's strange, I'd expect it of an activist on Twitter. I do hope that you're not the beginning of a change in the kind of people posting here.
It really is possible to find shared goals and cooperate on achieving them with people who do not totally agree with you. Once the immediate threat is addressed, those people might be the next item on the agenda; but this is "stand together or fall separately" territory.
There are a lot of roles required in successfully defending against an invasion -- maintenance, transport, heavy lifting, fighting, cooking; to name a few. Effective task assignment can be a resilience multiplier in the moment and also has a long-term echo.
If there is Nazism in the Ukraine as in any other eastern country? Definitely, including Russia. Is that a reason to remove the rights of the Ukraine to exist? For sure not!
wut
> I'm Jewish
That's my favorite argument in internet discussions: "I'm Ukrainian and I don't support my government; I'm Russian and I hate Putin; I'm a liberal, but Trump is a great leader; I'm Jewish and..."
> Antisemitism is part of Nazism. There is no Nazism without Antisemitism.
Nazism is not about jews, it's about supremacy of the nazis nation, whatever nation it is, over other nations.
> Is that a reason to remove the rights of the Ukraine to exist? For sure not!
That's what the article says
"I don't think that supporting nazis with arms for a decade and training them to fight is a good idea and ukrainian nazis are not on my "side of the line". I have enough of them where I live, thank you very much. "Immediate threat" my ass."
Which doesn't make sense, is just dismissive as the Jews there are actually fighting the War led by a Jewish president. Where is your argument now https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-jews-push-back-again... ?
It's hard to understand when you don't quote what you are answering
> Which doesn't make sense, is just dismissive as the Jews there are actually fighting the War led by a Jewish president. Where is your argument now https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-jews-push-back-again... ?
How jews fighting the Putin's invasion justifies supplying nazis with arms? Maybe it's self-explanatory for you, but i have no idea what do those people have in their heads. It's a free country, they can do what they want, i dont care
No it's not. If i want to comment the linked article, i comment directly under the article. If I want to answer you, I reply to you. That's how threaded forums work.
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
It's possible to discuss the topic while remaining thoughtful, substantive, not descending into attack, and so on. Not that it's easy, but plenty of users are managing it, and their posts don't need to be flagged.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Unless who is trying to propagate this information, works together or for Russia.
BTW from HN:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-jews-push-back-again...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-national...