I am using a Kinesis Adv 2 and have just switched to Colemak DH myself. It's really hard to rewire your brain ti type on it, but after a week now I'm starting to get faster.
One thing that I still haven't quite figured out is Vim... How do people use Vim with an alternative layout? do you keep the same keybindings and just deal with it(hjkl are not nicely in line for example) or do you remap each action to the physical location it would be on a qwerty keyboard (i.e. navigating with mnei for example)?
The general advise is to leave it as it is. You should not over-rely on hjkl-navigation too much anyway, and at least for colemak-dh they are concentrated on the edge of the left half, which is acceptable.
This is a rabbit hole that I spent considerate amount of time and money and I’d like to warn some of those who are interested into going in.
> Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right? ;-)
With this article sentence I wholeheartedly stand. It’s important to know and optimize tools you’re using most of waking time. Keyboard promises improvement both health and performance wise. Same with layout. Yet both unorthodox keyboards and layouts are considerate investments. Even more so if they are customizable. And it might be possible that they’ll never pay off.
I had situations that match common theme: I’m heavily focused on a problem. I’m coding away and that at some point I stumble and fall. I can’t remember combination for some shortcut I’ve been using in ages. Instead of working furiously on the problem I’m solving “where is the key” problem now. The other situation is the stressful one. I found out that under situations that stress me I forgot complex customizations. Keyboard layouts? They don’t work.
This get amplified if you have multiple keyboards to work with. I’ve used Dvorak for more then a year - didn’t stick. Split keyboards with standard layout - same. Non orthodox keyboards - even after more than year of using it didn’t work. For keyboard.io I went so far that I got multiple ones to try to avoid “switch fatigue” and ended giving them out.
Right now I’m using standard full size low key keyboard with numpad and additional F-keys for bindings. It works, has low latency (latency IS an issue with many keyboards), my hands don’t get tired because there is almost non pressure required (and I type a lot while getting older every day) and that’s the best keyboard I have. Right now I’m considering actually getting rid of tenkeyless keyboard for my gaming pc because lack of keys and all those combos to get to F-s just annoys me when I want to script something. It simply puts a problem in front of me that I didn’t intend to solve.
Craftsman has to care for their tools. I agree. But choosing battles is important too.
> Right now I’m considering actually getting rid of tenkeyless keyboard for my gaming pc because lack of keys and all those combos to get to F-s just annoys me when I want to script something.
Tenkeyless are supposed to have function keys - they only lack the numpad cluster. Sounds like you went down to a 65% or so?
I never understood the trend of keyboards without numpad, F-keys or even arrows. Sure, it's nice if you carry your keyboard in your backpack, but on a desk I think it's more useful to have those keys.
> Non technical people don’t need most of those keys
I disagree. A numpad can be nice to have if you have to input lots of numbers, or use a calculator app. I often use the END-key when editing text to jump to the end of a line, similarly for POS1. So IMO this has not so much to do with being technical or not.
A numpad is one thing as it's visually obvious, but the End key? Lots of people don't even know about ctrl+w to close window or ctrl+t to create new tab in browser. The End key is advanced black magic.
For anyone else like me who might not know all the shortcuts, ctrl+l takes your mouse to the url bar! This changed everything for me when I learnt this, ctrl+w is great too!
I have had to use excel Ona windows system a fair bit in recent past and the end key sees a lot of use inside excel. It took me a fair bit of time to get used to my laptop’s fn+arrow key combo to get end to work on excel for me. On the mac ctrl+a and ctrl+e so the job of home and better for me as that also works on the terminal.
My daily driver keyboard is the older Apple wireless keyboard. There one that uses the AA battery. Mainly because this has the exact same layout as my MacBook Pro. This keyboard plus the trackpad works great for me. I don’t understand why Apple did not revert to the inverted arrow keys on the external keyboard. Now there is no way to get the same exact layout on a MacBook Pro and with an external keyboard from Apple.
> Non technical people don’t need most of those keys
But... if you're non-technical, then considering you may encounter a situation where you need to use the keys (e.g. "press ctrl+alt+delete"), choosing a keyboard where it's more complicated to press those keys seems a weird choice.
I think the people who opt for small keyboards are more likely to be keyboard-enthusiastic, and go for e.g. vim or emacs as their main text editors.
The problem with numpad is, that it is usually on between your keyboard and mouse so it is more comfortable for me to just remove it entirely. But I think I would like to have it on left side of my keyboard.
You can have the numpad on the left, but I rarely saw keyboards like that. I saw some odd "left-handed" rubber dome keyboards, but that's it. You can also have a distinct numpad and put it anywhere.
This is why I use TKLs. I use a separate Leopold mechanical numpad placed on the left, so that the home row keys are more or less centered in my keyboard tray and under my monitor.
Also much nicer for playing Civ and other games that don't use WASD for camera control.
There are keyboards where you have (programmable) layers. Moving your hand is very inefficient compared to just pressing a layer key with then one hand and then using keys in the home row (or WASD style) as cursor keys.
Similar for numpad or F-keys. The main point is not necessarily to have a smaller keyboard to carry around, but rather to minimize hand movement.
It depends on your use case, and how you have your keys and layers mapped.
Back when I used a 60% and was working in a physical office, I had mapped arrows to Fn + [i, j, k, l]. This allowed me to barely move my right hand, at the cost of holding some other key with my left pinky. Overall, my wrists barely had to move.
As someone who uses a 60% keyboard that is without numpad, F-keys or arrows I can say that it actually isn't really more useful for me. I'm actually looking to switch to a 40%. But I can wholly understand your surprise - I was surprised too and my first mechanical keyboard was a G80-3000 - a warship of a keyboard, only comparable to the Model M in size.
I think this video[0] is a great introduction why people who don't take their laptops around enjoy using tiny keyboards.
Embedded keypads are fairly nice and at the top of the slippery slope.
I never used to use the numpad layout, now I do but on shifted keys and can also use it on my Macbooks and other small keyboards.
(Note, a lot of the keyboard community stuff seems to assume you're going to use one specific hardware keyboard. I do have a bunch of odd keyboards, but I mostly use software to remap the keys rather than firmware, so I can be consistent across keyboards).
Maybe if I was plugging into more weird computers I'd need to bake it in to the keyvoard device, but at the moment software has been good enough for everything I need).
I'm happy we have options now. Personally I prefer 75% as I missed the function row from different boards, but others have differing tastes. Even if I hate numpads, and especially refuse to buy an off-centered laptop with one, others do prefer it. I find it very common in the country I'm in as the QWERTY equivalent here is also bad and puts letters over the number row with no Arabic numerals on any layer (despite being the default number style) so it's quicker to pop over to a number pad than it is to switch to an English layouts for Arabic numerals (though arguable the standard layout should change).
The number row is full of characters, and the number row when shift is help become the Thai numbers. The numbers are basically only used in formal settings, the default layout has no access to Arabic.
The only time I use the numpad is when I'm playing Dwarf Fortress, and that too will change after the forthcoming GUI update. I've been developing software using vi and the CLI for well over 40 years; I want my desk space back so I can move my notepad and coffee cup closer.
The problem tends to be in finding commercially-made backlit clicky keyboards without a numpad.
Can I recommend ignoring the fact that keypad is.. well keypad and treat it as additional X keys to bind?
I have binds that directly open browser, Emacs, terminal and even IM so that I don't have to use mouse. Some are more macroable, e.g. I had a job where I had to retype things from images (imagine the cost effectiveness), but because I'm lazy type I made a macro under a key that would screenshot -> OCR, key next to it was opening target app.
The size of the spacebar on a standard keyboard takes up the space of 6 keys; but people will push the spacebar in the same place. It's nicer for the thumb to be able to access more keys, and nicer to not need to rely on the pinky finger for so many keys.
I think most keyboards which give the thumb more keys also follow this trend of taking away the numpad, F-keys, arrows; often even the number-row as well. (Maybe just my bias, but I think most keyboards with more thumbkeys are symmetrical, too).
While there's a trade-off "moving hand to a greater number of keys" against "complexity, like layering".. I think the small keyboards make more efficient use of the hands compared to standard keyboards. -- My guess is that people who try designs with more thumb keys then think layering is pretty neat.
Yes. Classical keyboards are inefficient in so many ways.
Consider that thumb is responsible for 50% of hand function [1]. And we use it to press only one button - the space bar. While pinky is the weakest finger andd we use it for the greatest number of keys...
Not sure about other people's experiences, but to me the thumb isn't that useful as a typing digit because it can't arch. Multi-row thumb clusters are useless to me because I can't press the upper rows with my thumb without pressing the lower row as well.
To me, a "thumb cluster" should be just a single row of 1.5u keys. Any secondary rows above those aren't reachable by thumb, so they rarely get used, and therefore might as well be removed.
Maybe others have a different experience, but I still use my thumb mainly to press the space bar and enter keys. All other thumb keys are modifiers and layer switches.
As a dev who traditionally has used a Mac (and prefers mnemonic key shortcuts even on other platforms), the F-Keys get very little traffic. For those a layer is good enough, because most of the time they’re collecting dust.
Numpads can be nice in certain situations, but the vast majority of the time they also get little usage from me. For the times when I do need one, I have a discrete numpad (KBDPad MKII) which I can place freely on my desk (so it’s not robbing me of mouse space) and tuck away in a drawer when it’s not needed. Best of both worlds.
Because it's far more comfortable (and arguably ergonomic) to not have to move your hands 6 miles to reach the F-keys or numpad? Or to have your mouse so far away from your home position in the alphas because of the numpad and nav cluster? It's also very easy to have small keyboards that still retain arrows if you can't cross that bridge, even with 40%'s. And with a little bit of effort to customize your layers you could easily reach a numpad and all your function keys by barely needing to move your hands.
Having a numpad would force me to have the mouse further right by about 10cm. It's already a bit unconformable due to being on a weird angle for my arm, those 10cm make a difference if you sit on the computer all day.
Also, it simply takes up desk space. If I don't need it, why have it?
When I’ve had keyboards with numpads, I never used them. Unless one is entering long strings of numbers, the top row is a much easier.
I do need arrow keys for navigation while reading, though.
It depends a lot on where you work I've found. I recently had the chance to experience a team where they were given the full implementation logic by a product team, and your job was to turn it from business logic to code almost 1:1. I spent nearly all my time writing and testing, which was an interesting change.
You're right statistically, but think back to what your most "productive" moments of your developer career involved.
It was probably typing furiously. Maybe not a constant dictation stream 150+WPM, but it was surges of input in response to a creative flow in your mind.
Do you read code while sitting on your hands? Or do you perhaps print out code before reading it?
When I read code, it's not a passive activity. I'm navigating and searching. Sometimes I bring up external documentation. In short, I'm interacting with my computer. For me, reading code requires typing.
> I'm navigating and searching. Sometimes I bring up external documentation.
If you spend as much time navigating as reading or analysing you have an organization problem.
> In short, I'm interacting with my computer. For me, reading code requires typing.
I can concede that when debugging one must press keys to make the ide progress through code however I find spending $100 to comfortably press a key every few seconds wasteful.
Managers, on the other hand, might benefit of good keyboards if they spend most of their time writing emails back to back.
I wonder if there's ever been a study to determine how much the advent of a second standard computer monitor in (developers / accountants / lawyers) toolkits reduced the amount of paper waste generated by corporations each year.
I tried to love mechanical keyboards, I really did. I think I romanticized it too much. Maybe it was a form of procrastination ("I'm sure I'll finally stop slacking off when I have the right keyboard!"). In the end however, hundreds of dollars later, no matter what I tried I always came back to Logitech MX Keys. It's low profile, wireless and pleasant to type on. The only mechanical keyboard I think came close to a daily driver, that I still have, is Keychron K1. That's probably because of it's low profile keys. Other than that I sold all others and kinda gave up.
That of course doesn't mean I shit on the whole keyboard industry. I can appreciate a wonderful, thoughtful design that's tailored to someone's specific need. However, turns out that in that particular area I'm a basic bitch :P
Logitech MX Keys user here as well. It's an excellent keyboard... And I dabbled in lots of mechanical keyboards as well. The ability to switch between 3 computers is also brilliant. The keyboard looks mature and professional, which somewhat matters to me too.
That's a variant of a diddley bow guitar (there are other names, too). There's a larger variety that goes by a bunch of names that you lean against a wall to play. Traditionally, you'd source the wire from a worn-out broom. It was the first instrument for a lot of early blues guitarists. (obviously, the old-school versions don't have electric pick-ups, but this is otherwise pretty much a standard build for one)
I've recently made the switch to Colemak on an ortholinear split keyboard. It's different enough that I can switch back to qwerty on a standard keyboard without my brain getting too confused, but Colemak is similar enough that I was able to learn it relatively quickly. An added bonus, learning a new layout actually made me a better qwerty typist on standard keyboards, even if I'm a little slower now when I switch back, I've noticed I do a lot less reaching and moving off the home row.
Wonder why they didn't try the Planck from ZSA. I use it as my daily driver. It did take about a month to get used to, but now I am just as fast at typing as previously - and my fingers are moving much, much less.
I still get wrist strain because the angle of my hands which the Moonlander would have fixed... however I heard a big issue with the Moonlander is you need to always look at your hands before you begin to type - because you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again
> you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again
I used to have this issue. Then I realized that if you tilt the Moonlander, there's a gap between the thumb cluster and the rest of the keyboard. Locating the half of the keyboard is a matter of just moving your hand towards the keys until your thumb slides into that gap. (It sounds complicated but in reality it isn't.)
During isolation I bought my first mechanical keyboard (a cheap Qisan Magicforce 68, that I wholeheartly recommend). I quickly learned to use it and still love it at home.
A few months ago I bought a kinesis advantage for my office. I'm fully used to it (although it took me a while to stop hitting wrong keys).
When I bought both keyboards, I already knew how to touch type and went back to typeracer, keybr and monkeytype. My speed did not increase that much and I still get my fastest speeds on my macbook pro integrated keyboard.
The main reason why I use an external keyboard is to solve my back problems, by using a stand or an external screen.
In particular, I get my slowest typing speeds on my kinesis advantage. It is NOT built for speed, it is built for comfort. It allowed me to improve my posture considerably so it's still worth it.
PS: in my experience, using a laptop stand / external monitor helps with the lower back problems (weirdly). I solved my upper back problems by doing more exercise, and it's as easy as having some elastic bands near my desk and trying to stretch them horizontally behind my neck a few minutes a day (when I'm reading a long email or pdf or thinking or need a break).
PS2: a must-have on macOS is karabiner. I use it to have nicer keybindings for french accents (modifier keys like `) but also to configure function keys on my kinesis advantage and put navigation shortcuts on my mouse (logitech G502).
I second the Magicforce! Linear switches (Red or Black) are probably best for it, but it's a nice balance of cheap, sturdy-enough, portable-enough and compact-enough.
It has little in the way of layout customization (3 position DIP switch on the back of mine), but that's just fine for a first board. It also has a mostly-standard layout, so if you wanted to get aftermarket keycaps, you don't need to sweat too much about compatibility or odd sizes.
There's a few big upsides to going down this rabbit hole imo-
1. Realizing how much dead space there is on a normal keyboard (capslock, the space bar doesn't need to be so big, many keys you might want to use frequently are in awkward spots, like the numbers).
2. Being able to fully customize the layout to your liking. I don't think anyone agrees 100% on what the ideal layout is, but once you get more comfortable with layers and testing various layouts it gets pretty easy to adjust.
3. Finding out how quickly you can adapt to multiple layouts by just sticking with it. You won't be perfect the first time, and you might struggle to briefly when you switch back to a normal board, but people vastly underestimate how good humans are at adaptation.
There's also a bonus level of just having nice keys/switches. While this is the part that can get pricey, as someone who's typing all the time it really does feel like a worthy expense.
The major downsides being that it can get expensive fast (at least if you're picky), you might need some level of soldering skill, and there are times where you DON'T want to be the person with the fancy keyboard that no one else can use (I always have a normal one plugged in at work just in case).
Still i'm super glad I got into it. I'm a huge fan of 40% boards just because of the portability and the space they save. I'm typing all this, on a mercutio and my work daily driver is a low profile crkbd (I do analytics and some low end/intermediate coding).
The only issue i've ever run into is that I'm a fan of roguelikes, and while most games don't need too many keys, those in particular seem to have this habit of the designer trying to use EVERY key on a full sized keyboard, so i'm working on a layer for that.
I had a go at smaller keyboards - tried a 65% to see how I'd like it. And honestly - it was annoying. I know you can have layers and your hands move less, but having to press three keys for say, tilda (shift + fn + esc) is just silly. I'd rather just roam my hand around, my muscle memory is pretty good.
These days my main is an 1800 keyboard, numpad and all, and it's fine.
> I know you can have layers and your hands move less, but having to press three keys for say, tilda (shift + fn + esc) is just silly. I'd rather just roam my hand around, my muscle memory is pretty good.
Yup. That's why the best format for me is the "84 key" or "75%", which is roughly "laptop layout". You get all the Fx keys, arrows, home/end/etc, but no numpad, and it's smaller than the "tenkeyless" format.
I find it much more comfortable for having the mouse closer. For some reason, this format doesn't seem as widespread as the one without the Fx row.
Yes! I don't lock my hands on the home keys, so roaming around the keyboard isn't a carpal tunnel nightmare as some make out. I just move my whole arm a bit.
I rest my hands on the laptop's left and right edges, not on the home keys... and no I don't "hunt and peck", I touch-type at 90wpm. But I love function keys, give me more function keys! I dream of the Hyper7 [1]
Yes! I don't lock my hands on the home keys, so roaming around the keyboard isn't a carpal tunnel nightmare as some make out. I just move my whole arm a bit.
I wonder if some of these preferences have to do with how long your fingers are.
It wouldn't even occur to me to try and access the F row from homehow without moving my arm. But if my fingers were a bit longer I could see how I might do it, even if it wasn't good for my joints.
I'd expect finger length and even ratio between them to play an important role.
I was talking with a friend about how he had issues reaching some keys which seem easy to reach for me. And I don't think I have particularly big hands, I can't reach any F key if my fingers are on the home row. I can barely reach 4 and 8, but it's uncomfortable.
Exactly what I have been using for years - its nice they are finally getting more popular. I bought one almost 10 years ago now and it was one of the only models available. Still typing on it right now and it looks almost new. Cherry MX Blacks ftw
Split space keyboards are a thing, though not as common. One of the reasons I ended up with a split ergo board was to increase the use of my thumbs on the keyboard.
That tilde combo thing is why I only use 60% and 65% keyboards that offer the layout option known as “split backspace” — that is, the backspace key is moved moved down to where the pipe/backslash key normally is, and in backspace’s normal position there’s two 1u keys: pipe/backslash and tilde/grave. This also makes backspace easier to reach for my small-medium sized hands, which I didn’t know was a problem until I tried a split backspace board for a while.
In a similar vein, I also find split right shift which carves 1u off the right end of the right shift key to add an Fn key nice for improving quality of life on 60/65% boards. For me that Fn positioning is much more natural, plus it puts that duty on my right hand which is typically much less loaded down with modifiers than my left hand is.
https://i.redd.it/vjbpi0rtx1q41.jpg
I guess in this case delete/back space are the same key. which makes sense. well until you want to press ctrl+delete or ctrl+backspace.
Do you have some recommendations for keyboards that fit that layout? Tilde being on the Fn layer of Esc was never a problem for me on my Poker until I changed jobs and suddenly was writing much more Markdown than before.
For 60% boards, the HHKB (Happy Hacker’s Keyboard) which is built with Topre switches mentioned in my other comments has this layout. There’s also boards with MX style switches that mimic the HHKB, such as the Tokyo60.
For 65%, things get more spotty. Off the top of my head I’m not aware of any prebuilt 65% boards that use this layout.
For both 60% and 65%, there’s a huge number of build-it-yourself kits as well as separate PCBs, cases, etc that support this layout. It’s a bit of a rabbit hole (as alluded to with this post’s title), but if you have the patience by far building your own board gives you the greatest degree of control.
I've been rocking a Poker with clears for years, so unless I go on a big exploration, I already know what I mostly like. I went to a meetup right before the pandemic and I was amazed at how many new switches there were since I stopped buying new keyboards five years prior.
I'm familiar with the idea of the HHKB and am looking up the Tokyo60 now.
My 60% doesn't require 3 keypresses for any key. This is with out of the box configuration (vortex pok3r).
Muscle memory is something you gain over time regardless. I was just tired of my keyboard taking up so much deskspace when I basically never used 30% of the keys on it.
> many keys you might want to use frequently are in awkward spots, like the numbers
Laptops used to handle this by having a toggleable numpad on top of the letters. That is, if you pressed a button (analogous to numlock) then the keys u/i/o would input 7/8/9, and j/k/l would input 4/5/6, etc.
I found it very convenient, but they stopped including that for some reason.
Some recent Asus laptops have a touch-panel numeric keypad that you can turn on in the trackpad, the zenbook I have being one of them.
It doesn't feel the same as actual keys, but it is better than nothing.
My dad uses numeric keypads a lot (habit from years of working in payroll & similar, lots of figures and basic arithmetic to type) but doesn't like the function-key-to-overload-keys-for-a-keypad due t the extra key and the key alignment not being quite right. He has a USB add-on keypad that he plus into laptops when convenient (i.e. when desk space allows).
Not just that, but a keyboard is a huge section of desk real estate particularly the critical part of the desk (the part right in front of you), and that is really poorly utilized for a single function.
At a minimum, your keyboard should function as a port expander / dock for video, usb (all of them), flash, headphone ports. Most techies have multiple machines, so it should probably be a kvm switch as well. It should support both wired and wireless modes. It could also be a wifi network switch or range extender. Why not double as a power strip?
Why don't keyboards double as a port hub? Obsolescence, price, and reliability. Combining more functions into that single item means that there is more than can go wrong. Keyboards are (were?) made for USB-A and don't need speeds above 1.0: the keyboard/dock combo should be something closer to a Thunderbolt 4 hub.
When I realized this it was eye opening. I used to have an MIT layout Planck (2u) spacebar, I tried a full grid and it feels perfect for spacebar to just be another 1u key.
I'm curious, I hear this alot, but when I'm coding, whenever I need to type out constants, they're in ALL-CAPS. Do you remap caps-lock to an unused spot, or do you hold down shift while typing? I'm usually in vim or equivalent most of the time, FWIW.
I see it in Programmable Logic Controllers. Engineering drawings often come in all caps and a program's input and output buffers are sometimes named to match. The older programs were in all caps because the programming terminals had no lowercase.
There's definitely a reason to pay attention to your input devices - you can get better ergonomics, learn something about your preferences and sometimes optimize your workflow. I don't think the mechanical rabbit hole is the best value-for-money but it is definitely on the fun and aesthetically appealing side of things, and you don't have to get super deep into it with the high end customs and group buys to see interesting stuff. In the end I went back to membrane but with the split Kinesis Freestyle2 design. It's just great for me, even if I can't get the hang of using the shortcut keys.
Most recently I've been working reusing some old keyboards to create giant surfaces full of labelled launchers and shortcuts - I had to spend a few days working out what software solution I wanted but I'm about to do some actual device config this evening. I think the labelling strategy works when you explicitly go wide and turn things you would normally browse for or type a line for into massive quantities of macro keys. When it's a frequently accessed thing, it has to stay near your fingers which favors chording, combinations, modes and context sensitivity.
I did have a phase where I was using US layout over German, because I do agree that US layout is just more suitable for programming.
But training my muscle memory that way turned out to be more of a pain than a gain.
As a freelancer, I'm frequently in a situation where I'm forced to use a laptop that a client has provided, with a German layout. Oftentimes I will not have an external keyboard on hand, like I'm in a meeting room and didn't want to bring one, or I'm on a plane or train.
In order to make that work, you'd need to be a pretty disciplined typist who doesn't rely on the labels on the keys at all so as not to be confused by them when they're in a different layout.
Back in those days, there were also many edge cases, like the login screen etc., where you couldn't customize your layout away from some default that the client has configured.
Also: Most of the pain comes from curly braces. So when you're doing Python & Nim you're mostly okay using a European layout. I also think it's probably not a coincidence that the people behind those languages are Europeans, Guido van Rossum and Andreas Rumpf.
I also switched to a US layout from German layout. It took me a while to get used to typing Umlauts (on a Mac, you type option-u followed by a/o/u to get ä/ü/ö), but after a few months it became very natural.
My home computer is in the living room shared with my family, it still has a German layout, so I switch between US and German pretty often. I can type on both keyboards fluently. Somehow my brain knows that the computers have different keyboard layouts.
The only thing that still confuses me is a cheap backup keyboard that I have (when bluetooth doesn't work), which has a UK layout....
I guess I'm one of the odd people who have their work machines (and linux laptops( on US Intl and main machine at home on de-qwertz - so I change once per day (on a work day, and when I am using mine at home that evening).
It mostly works, I'm absolutely trained to expect qwerty, but my keyboard at home (G710+) tells my muscle memory to start typing with a German layout now. I've not had to use any clients' laptops for many years but I could see the problem, I have it when someone hands me a ThinkPad with German layout for example, but I'm willing to tolerate to type garbage once a month in exchange for being able to work with the layout I actually prefer.
I am German and I use the US (Colemak) layout,because the German layout is very annoying for programming. I rarely use my laptops keyboard. I would rather carry a smaller external keyboard around (Atreus or similar) if I would need to use Laptops I do not own.
Hmm. Yeah. Come to think of it, it may be worth another round of experimentation.
Does anyone have experience with using stickers? Can anyone recommend a good product there? -- maybe that would help with the awkwardness of internal laptop keyboards.
I can't go without EurKey [1] at this point. It's the US qwerty layout, but AltGr can be used to type pretty much all Western European characters, e.g. ö==AltGr+o. It's available on most linux distros out-of-the-box!
I can still type on a German layout, but only in German. I think the language change provides enough of a "context switch" for my brain.
Actually, you don't even need that! The US Mac layout with level3_shift is very practical and supported with standard xorg (never tried wayland): the win keys become the level3 shift, so you can type special characters with both hands. win+c -> ç, etc. You also retain both alts as regular alts. That's configurable, so if your keyboard lacks a righ win and is replaced with the menu key, you can use that as lvl3 shift.
The advantage is you get to keep both alt keys as alts. The downside is that you lose the Windows key, but I remap that to caps-lock.
It probably wouldn't help you, but others in Europe should consider the British/Irish layout: it retains the tall Enter key and the extra key between Shift and Z.
You gain £ and ¬ with the extra key (and € with AltGr), although a few symbols are moved round: # and ~ end up easier to type, ¬ is kicked into the corner, and @ and " are switched compared to the US layout.
> Also: Most of the pain comes from curly braces. So when you're doing Python & Nim you're mostly okay using a European layout. I also think it's probably not a coincidence that the people behind those languages are Europeans, Guido van Rossum and Andreas Rumpf.
There is a Dutch keyboard layout that is similar to the German one, but the US-International layout is almost universally used in the Netherlands, and has been for as long as I recall (mid 80s). I've only seen a keyboard with the Dutch layout once (and I've seen a lot of old second-hand hardware over the years!)
So in the case of Python at least, I think it probably wasn't a consideration.
Most German programmers I know use US-International btw, but I don't know how common that is.
Ah, that's interesting about the Netherlands. I didn't know that.
I know a lot of German programmers, as I am one myself and I work a fair amount in German companies, and I never knew a single one who used US-International (apart from myself in the brief phase described above).
My first mechanical keyboard was a Razer Blackwidow with Cherry MX Blue switches. Next, I bought a blank-key Das with Cherry MX Brown. Since then I've used an Input Club K-Type, a Tesoro Durandal, and some Logitech keyboard with MX Reds. I actually really liked the MX Reds, way more than I thought I would. So when I ordered the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard it was with Box Reds. I also still have an Input Club Nightfox waiting to be assembled in my closet - it's been there for years. I should probably just sell it at this point.
In regards to layouts, I too prefer US layout for coding. But I live in a European country with special characters and have gotten used to using that layout. The UHK, however, will come with a US layout and I'll map the special characters to alternative keys. I hadn't delved much into special key mappings on my boards yet, so that'll be interesting. I got it with the trackball module in hopes of never needing to use a mouse again.
The Nightfox was one of the first full-on build-it-yourself keyboards I drooled over, but they were already a limited-availability item at that time, and haven't been in production for years. A relic of the past, as it were: https://kono.store/products/nightfox-mechanical-keyboard
At minimum, you should easily be able to get MSRP for a sealed kit. If I wasn't stretched for fun-money and display shelf space, I'd make an initial offer of $150 if it was sealed, or at least new-in-box with all the pieces. If it's the True Fox (split backspace) layout, I'll kick myself extra hard in a few years for not buying it anyways.
Aesthetically, it's still very pretty, and if you have your own keyboard shelf, it may be nice to at least assemble and display it. If you fancy yourself the tinkering type, design files for the board and case are available: https://github.com/kiibohd
Oh yeah it's sealed, in the sense that all the caps are in their original sealed plastic packaging in the dark gray case. The original plastic packaging on the PCB and back-plate itself is not sealed, but I don't _think_ it ever was. To be honest I'm not sure if it is the True Fox layout or not. I think that was what I ordered when backing it, but not 100% sure how to tell - the kit contains both a regular backspace and the split backspace key.
I did drool over this board as well and then just never built it, and I think mostly I liked the _idea_ and beauty of it rather than the thought of using it itself (and now having ordered the UHK I doubt I'll ever really get around to building it). I might keep it around a bit longer for nostalgia reasons, but I know I need to learn to let go of these kinds of things at some point.
It looks like the PCB supports both layouts (only one at a time, of course! Should depend on the firmware settings), and the differentiator would be the switch plate. If the cutouts on the top row are all the same, it should be True Fox (split backspace), which is imo nicer on a keyboard of that size. The keycap set also looks to be made to fit either layout, which is expected.
The same happened to me with the Rama M65-B (the ICED option), except it cost more money. I flirt with the idea of selling it, to put the money to use somewhere else, but I'm still too emotionally invested in the thing, as well as the nebulous 'potential' it may have for me in the future, whether as an art piece, a gift to someone, etc. Whichever way, another year or two won't matter much, and I have enough closet space to hold on to it for now.
If you're regularly clearing things out, maybe do a quick inventory of the contents, and put it all in a box with the 'last access time' written on it? It could help remind you of how long you've been waiting to make a decision.
I've been using an electro-capacitive (Topre-like) keyboard with ultra-light 35g keys called Niz. They're actually lighter than the latest gen macbook keyboards and let me type as fast as I did on the butterfly keyboards, and they are completely silent.
Now all I'm looking for is a split compact version of these Topre-like keyboards. Pretty much 99% of the custom keyboard scene is just various housing and PCBs for cherry style switches. For whatever reason with electro-capactive keyboards there are limited options. If anyone knows of a split topre keyboard please let me know!
I have the same issue with a keyboard that I love. I simply bought two of them and use one for the left and one for the right hand. Certainly not the sleekest solution, but it works.
Are Topre(-like) switches even available on the open market in single-keyboard quantities? I imagine that the schematic should be the same and the pcb would "just" have to be edited for the different mounting.
Topre and other electro-capacitive boards are way harder to make 'special'. Their switches are not discrete, replaceable units like MX-and-friends. So, a custom board would need to have a custom-designed PCB, and would need custom-designed dome sheets, etc.
Something that uses MX-compatible (or alps) switches is going to have an easier time being designed and built, because all you need to do is have an up-to-date footprint to copy/paste in your PCB designer program.
Behold, my one-and-only foray into making my own PCB design. I just followed guides online, and it still took me about $300~$500 to get this from 0 to a working and typing prototype: https://imgur.com/gallery/lZglox7
Well, EC keyboards exist, including non-Topre ones. I'm just surprised almost no one has taken a stab at selling a split one given how popular they are with enthusiasts.
Came across this while combing through my comments and thought I'd already answered, so pardon the delay.
People have certainly tried [1][2], but the big issue in the design is that the switches don't operate as a standard on/off (trivial to detect), but are instead capacitive, in that the current passing through the electrocapacitive pad on the PCB is somewhere between 1 and 0 (exclusive bounds, iirc, and simplified) at all times, dependent on how far the 'switch' above it is being pressed. This old repo seems to explain it well: https://github.com/tomsmalley/custom-topre-guide
Price and marketability are also issues. Split keebs are niche, ortho keebs are niche, EC keebs are niche, and you're talking about fusing those three together. People would 100% buy in, but it would probably be a microscopic market, to the point where the project would be financially lossy, even if you were selling them for $400 apiece.
The closest you/one might get for now is by buying two of these[3], unless you're dedicated enough to DIY.
Don't you get sore wrists with the Apple Keyboard? Many years ago I used to have one, and I would get terrible pain because of the tilt (Fx row being higher than Space row).
This is something that quite a lot of keyboards have, and I find it terrible. The most comfortable keyboards I've ever used have been the Logitech Wave and the MS Sculpt wireless. I prefer the latter, since I never use the numpad, and the keys feel better. Overall it has a cheaper feel, though, and wrist rest padding is falling apart after some 3 years of use.
But I also love my Keychron K2 v1 with Gateron browns, which is flat (Fx row at the same height as the Space row). It's quite high, mind, but an after-market wrist rest has fixed that, and it's a really lovely typing experience. It's quieter than most "basic keyboards" (think basic office keyboards from Dell, etc) and the smooth, low-resistance keys are great for finger fatigue.
Years ago I bought a Filco Majestouch, great little device, built like a brick. Still use it for PC work (mostly gaming).
But for work I've used a Mac keyboard for years as well, the numpad-less compact model. It's great and my go-to / default.
But, I bought into the Moonlander hype as well, currently typing this on one and trying to get used to it. I'm a quick typer but no keyboard warrior; typing this message seems to be fine, but coding is a lot more painful or difficult to get used to; I use the arrow keys, which are in awkward positions on the Moonlander; I use some keyboard combinations to select or navigate across whole words, that's some muscle memory that needs to be retrained and the finger combo seems weird. Feels like I have to stretch my fingers a lot more for anything that isn't just typing shitposts on the internets.
Might just be getting used to things, might be I need to relearn some muscle memory, or might be I should finally learn vim or emacs since that's apparently what all the cool kids do. I could never get into it myself, even knowing some tricks, navigating is still painful in vim to me.
I used to have similar issues with the Moonlander. This is how I solved them:
> coding is a lot more painful or difficult to get used to
Primarily, it was the symbols, {}()[]$ etc, which were hardest to hit for me. I put my Layer 1 "hold" key to the left of my H key (I use the QWERTY layout) and have remapped keys under my left hand to output symbols with Layer 1. It takes some memorizing to remember which key to press for each symbol, but it is not too bad.
> I use the arrow keys, which are in awkward positions on the Moonlander
I used to use the arrow keys using my middle and index finger. Now I use my thumbs. It's a lot easier this way.
> finger combo seems weird
Try remapping those modifier keys to an easier-to-reach key, or alternatively setting up a macro key (for example, I have a Command-space macro key because command and space are on the same thumb cluster in my layout).
The problem I see with "improved layout"/"ergonomic"/"split" keyboards is that not only do you have to retrain your muscle memory to use one, but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard. I have a boring old Dell keyboard at home, so at work (where we have a hot desk policy since Covid -> home office -> office space reduction), I can use any keyboard except for one specific desk where for some reason they have a keyboard with a modified layout where the arrow keys are offset and the block above the arrow keys is rotated 90°
I have a Moonlander and I have put off buying it for at least a year due to a same concern. It turned out to be not a concern. My hands seem to adapt to a normal keyboard whenever I use it so I can switch between the two freely without much trouble.
This applies to typing Dvorak and Qwerty as well, you don’t really forget. It’s like dancing, you can learn salsa and foxtrot without losing the other.
Addendum, for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all. Really you just put a hand on each split and that’s all there is to it.
> for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all
I'm guessing this is only true if your finger alignment matches with what you need for the split keyboard? I think a lot of people are used to using their right hand for some of the keys on the left side of the split and/or vice versa.
That’s a fair point, I was already a Dvorak typer when I got a split kbd which I think improved my typing technique. I’ve heard before that Qwerty encourages bad techniques.
Agreed, I spend about 70/15/15 of my time on my Moonlander, my laptop and a regular tenkeyless mechanical keyboard where my Moonlander is on Colemak mod-DH and the rest are QWERTY. I have no issues switching between them, which surprised me personally, I'm faster and a lot more accurate now with my Moonlander and find Colemak lots better than QWERTY, but given that I can't be bothered to fix the layout on my laptop I'll probably be decent at it as well for a long while.
Hmm I think that issue is overstated, I use a split keyboard in my coworking space, I go between it and my laptop keyboard at home regularly. Once I feel where I’m typing my brain seems to figure out pretty quickly and adjust.
I just have Emacs-style capslock->ctrl and just with that I tYPE LIKE THIS on any computer that's not mine for the first 5 minutes. I almost regret it.
I have that issue. I use the caps key as my "wm key" on i3, and I press it all the time on other computers when I want to change apps, etc.
But somehow, the different layout of an ergonomic keyboard doesn't bother me. I can go back and forth between my MS sculpt and a laptop with absolutely no issues aside from the position of home/end which aren't in the same order.
You'd think so, but somehow the brain adapts. I can type ~120 wpm on a moonlander/microsoft ergonomic 4000/my laptop keyboard on monkeytype (not that its a very useful test). Switching takes almost 0 effort. My problem is that my wrists and shoulders get sore really quickly when working on my laptop keyboard so I try to avoid doing that as much as possible.
Exactly right. I'm have a Macbook Air M1 and an "Apple Wireless Keyboard" which is released in 2003, discontinued in 2015. Bought it 2nd hand, in great condition for quite cheap.
The size and the layout are exactly the same apart for touch ID. It is great, zero adaptation between switching desktop configuration or mobile.
Maybe its not the "elite" experience of the mechanical keyboards, it's still pretty good and it's definitely a privilege not having to adapt between keyboards.
It's kind of surprising that people optimising for minute differences between clickiness of different key mechanisms wouldn't bother to optimize for this.
I have three Apple wired keyboards (A1243, aluminum, from 2007 with 2011 upgrade) that are long discontinued now. Still use them daily, even with Windows, just have some keys remapped. These are really good keyboards. I regularily switch between these low profile ones and my mechanical Fnatic and have no problems typing on either ones.
I love the newest wireless keyboard, it has Touch ID on the keyboard (only works on M1 Macs), which is awesome for e.g. SSH authentication [1]. Also, I like that you can just charge them with the lightning <-> USB-C cable (no more battery management) or use them as an USB keyboard.
To go against the other comments here, I couldn't get used to it (building new muscle memory - let alone switching). Years ago I bought an ErgoDox. One of the main things I underestimated is that it has an ortholinear layout: the keys are straight above each other instead of being staggered like on a traditional keyboard.
I went from typing 110WPM to 30WPM. After a week of practice I was at 50WPM. Two weeks in and I was at 60WPM. Most importantly, typing was now an activity that required thought, instead of simply flowing. At this point I was sufficiently frustrated and felt slowed down enough I stopped and went back to a traditional keyboard.
I'm sure that with enough time I would reach my original speed and effort. But I have spent more than a decade building this muscle memory, and I didn't feel it was worth it to spend another decade building muscle memory on non-commodity hardware.
Nowadays I'm on 130WPM, so any barrier to switch is even higher. I do understand that my experience is very atypical since I am (supposedly) in the top 0.1% percentile of typing speeds.
Ergonomic instruments increase comfort, which increases stamina and lower risks of injuries. Better ergonomy may increase per minute throughput, or decrease it. Rather measure throughput per day or even per week or longer; also factor in the potential consequence of injury leading to using the instrument at a fraction of the average user's speed for a good few months at least.
Most important for me wasn't speed, it was flow. But speed is easy to put a number on.
I would be a lot more cautious about injury if I was doing a lot more sustained writing. But mostly I am doing technical writing and programming, which usually involves a lot of thinking followed by a small sprint of actually typing. If this small sprint doesn't break my flow or train of thought, it's perfect.
For me it's actually almost the reverse. I used to average 80WPM, not fast but pretty decent. Recently changed to use Moonlander[1], split keyboard + ortholinear. The first week was a chore. Even avoided the computer when I can.
But during that time, I forced myself to finally learn how to touch type. Now I get 90+WPM consistently. More if I warm up and actually go for speed. Learning to type very differently than I used to probably helped to make the transition faster (no bad habits).
So now I have the advantage of typing faster, without looking at the keyboard at all and better ergonomics (it helped with my shoulder pain). The biggest downside is now I can't type on a normal keyboard anymore. The problem is I never tried touch typing on staggered keyboard so it's like learning an entirely new keyboard layout. Not a big issue during the past year due to work from home though.
Ortholinear is just one of those things, I was tripped up for a few hours at most. I took it slowly in evolving my QMK map for an ErgoDox, but for whatever reason my fingers just don't find ortho layout confusing.
Other people really trip up on it, almost as badly as switching actual layouts to e.g. Colemak. If someone out there hits that point and wants to get past it, the requirement is to train out errors, using a typing trainer which penalizes mistakes by, for example, requiring a word to be typed correctly before the next word is allowed.
Breaking the errors is a prerequisite for any jump in typing speed, whether that's a plateau or a new platform. It's annoying but it's the only thing which works.
I use an ergodox most of the time. My WPM on ergodox is like 130, my wpm on regular is like 110 (not because its harder, but because I'm less used to it)
If you keep switching as part of your protocol, it's fine
I can only say this is no issue for me. I'm currently using colemak dh on a dactyl manuform like keyboard and switch to using a macbook keyboard constantly because I use 2 devices. and even with the different layouts it doesn't make a difference for me. I think these bigger changes are easier to get used to than just smaller ones where for example the shift key is just a little longer that stuff always throws me off
I have a similar experience, but not with the split keyboards.
been using a 60% mechanical here at home for work and play for a while now (about a year at this point). best keyboard I have ever used, bar-none. The only problem is that my muscle memory is so damn used to it now that I find it a little difficult to be productive on larger keyboards.
Any time I want to move the cursor with the arrow keys, i find my right hand straying down to where the 'fn' key should be, etc.
not really a huge problem -- I'm working on replacing existing keyboards that I use everywhere with the same 60% model because I love it so much, but just soemthing I've noticed.
I with ergonomic keyboards doubled the keys on the border between hands between both halves. I frequently reach for those keys with the “wrong” index finger and would get annoyed if the keyboard said no.
When I moved to Europe, companies starting giving me EU (In my case either danish or icelandic) laptops, and I can barely function without plugging in my US keyboard. I've found it so much easier just to learn key sequences to input the few special characters and stick to what I'm otherwise used to for the last 30 years I've been typing.
I know some of it is just that - what you're used to - but I have several native colleagues that have switched to US layouts for coding as well.
As for small keyboards, that's the old man in me I guess. At some point in my youth either with Turbo Pascal or word perfect, I got used to Ctrl-Insert to copy, Shift-delete to cut, Shift-Insert to paste. Not only that Home/End/Page up/Page down are some of my most commonly used keys writing code. Number pads are nice but I would take a serious hit without my nav keys.
I'm German and have never set foot in the US - but I've always used US layout keyboards for coding since I first discovered how much programming language syntax is tied to US keyboard layouts (because most modern widespread languages were invented in the US I guess, quotation needed).
The main reason is the easy access to brackets, slashes, quotation marks, etc. compared to non-US keyboards where most of those are only accessible via key combinations, and really awkward ones as well.
I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it.
Same here, never lived in the US, always preferred the US keyboard layout. Fortunately, here in the Netherlands the majority of keyboards are US layout by default. Biggest exceptions in my experience are
- ThinkPads, which seem to divided between US and UK layout here
- Apple, which supplies the ISO layout (shortened left-shift, thin vertical Enter) by default, but thankfully has started to offer US as an option on their web store since a few years
- Logitech which only sells ISO layouts in Europe, and all US layout seem to come from private import
> I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it.
Is that fair? I’m not a German but from another N. European country. I have made my own keyboard config which I use for everything. But I also have a keybind to switch to a normal (or our own local layout) when somebody else is about to use my computer. So if I don’t forget to use it it would seem like I just use the regular keyboard layout.
My own config evolved like this: first I had two layouts for my own language and English/programming, respectively. But switching layouts became a pain in the neck in my latest local job where we chat in our own language, code in English, of course chat in English with our foreign consultants... so I had to make my keyboard config work with all three (native lang/English/programming). I’ve never tried to get used to the US layout but I would have to use the same layout switching approach since the US layout (even the international one) wouldn’t work well enough with my native language.
Can’t say that I appreciate this kind of judgement. What do you know about people’s personal setups? Well, unless they out of resentment just decide to explain like I just did. :)
I think for C programming non US keyboards are bad. When starting on such a board, I was thinking who ever thought that typing { is simpler than 'begin' must have been delusional.
Vim's normal mode keybindings all correspond to a function/command of the same name.
For example, i enters insert mode, dd deletes a line, f moves forward a char, etc.
You can record a macro by pressing q followed by another key, followed by any string of keystrokes, and ended by pressing q again.
So qbxxxq would save a macro to the b register that deletes three characters. You play it back with @b.
The neat thing is that macros are recorded in plain text, so pressing "bp would print the contents of the b register (xxx).
You can even write out the keystrokes of a new macro, then yank (copy) that text into a register with y"b (for the b register), and pay it back like normal (by pressing @b).
Anyway, the trouble with this ingenious system is that x isn't just the delete key, it's the delete function. You can map another key to do the x function; but at the end of the day, there's no getting away from the original function names, and therefore no way to get away from the original keybindings.
I've tried remapping keys in vim, and I always end up with an unusable mess, because I have to remap every key or lose access to functionality, and remapping some functions isn't as easy as you might expect.
I would rather, as a user, start from the ground up and define my own normal mode bindings, with regular function names like delete-char() or whatever.
I'm French and I take my US layout keyboard everywhere I think I might type. All software engineering tooling is just meant for it. It's a harsh lesson I've learned through the torture of using Emacs with a French layout.
US layout is definitely better than most EU layouts. It is still terrible compared to a custom setup however. So many bad contortions the fingers have to do compared to just having a sensible symbol-layer.
I'm in the Netherlands and I've rarely see a developer use anything other than US ANSI layout on a laptop. Consumer level stuff often defaults to US ANSI, but there is a bit of US/english ISO layout going around too.
A Dutch keyboard layout is a thing, but I've never seen one, just heard of some writers/editors using it.
I've tried a few different different mechanical keyboards over the years, and I keep ending up back on my trusty old Corsair K70 w/ mx brown switches. 6+ years and still going strong.
Mechanical keyboards are nice, but try not to fall into the consumerist trap of throwing away hundreds if not thousands of dollars chasing keyboard perfection.
It is the normal way to go. First mechanical, then columnar staggered (split) with at least 60% of the "normal" keys. Then towards 40% split boards :-)
My experience with mechanical keyboards is that after 3 years of using one (Anne Pro 2), I still hit the wrong keys so often, last week I switched again to my good old magic keyboard (the one that uses AAA batteries, is almost 10 years old) and I can relate that my muscle memory is so fixed with this keyboard.
But still like the mechanical keyboards, maybe I need to try one with lower profile.
I've been on the Kinesis Freestyle Blue for years and I love it. I paired it with a Logitech trackball that's apparently discontinued; I'm looking for a replacement as good. Their setup here is really close.
Long term, what I really want in a split mechanical keyboard: trackballs on both sides, near the spacebar, with intuitive mouse triggers built in. Maybe even a trackpad on one side, trackball on the other. That would be slick. One input device.
I'm loving the Kinesis Freestyle Pro recently. The Kinesis Freestyle range is a fairly normal keyboard layout, so it's not a huge change from a normal keyboard. But there's that fantastic wide split and a panel of helpful shortcuts on the left.
The wide split is great for shoulders and the shortcut panel helps with cutting down on common multi-key movements (copy, paste, etc).
The Pro steps up from the other Freestyles with mechanical keys and programmability. I'm using the programmability to remap some of the modifier keys for comfort. Combined with the panel of common shortcuts, it's much easier on my hands.
A bonus of having a programmable keyboard is that you don't need to rebind keys in the OS, something that's not always possible to do in corporate environments.
I did not know about the Pro, thanks for planting the seed of desire! I've yet to get into keyboard reprogramming, someday I'll take the plunge and learn to type efficiently.
One thing I really love about the Freestyle is that, with the stands and hand rests, it actually sits very nicely in the lap, for when you want to sit in the living room with the laptop on a coffee table.
Mechanical keyboards don’t have to be a rabbit hole. Just get something in a normal layout with brown switches (or silenced if you need that) and call it a day. I got a Keychron because they have Mac function keys, it was less than $100 and feels way better than the short key travel Magic Keyboard. I have no desire to upgrade.
Brown switches? MX Brown switches? Might as well not even put "rabbit hole" in that sentence...
I kid, I kid, it's all down to preference... That said, you can get yourself a single mechanical keyboard and call it a day, until one day you try a different board/layout with different switches. Maybe at your friends house, or at a shop, or more than likely: at work. You'll be forever wondering "I liked that...".
Keyboards really are a special tool for us. I've spent considerable amount of time and money on them, and I consider myself fairly frugal (well, in non keyboard related matters). All to say, it's very easy to fall into this rabbit hole, especially when you spend so much time working with these things...
I did actually "upgrade" my Keychron to Boba U4 switches (a popular choice for silent switches) because my family found the noise that the Browns make annoying. But to be honest in terms of typing experience the Browns that came with the keyboard (Gateron, which I believe are a cheaper replica of the Cherrys?) were totally fine to me and the Bobas are as well. Sometimes being a simpleton has upsides :)
My new uni roommate came in with Greens and we managed to compromise it down to "just" Blues after a week. Still have no idea how he didn't get kicked out of his first year lectures with that typewriter.
The keychrons come with Gateron switches, which in my experience are softer than the Cherry browns which have a kind of "spring" to them, even though the specs say they should be the same.
Source: I own a keychron k2 v1 with Gateron browns and a CoolerMaster something and Das S with Cherry browns.
You don't need a mechanical keyboard to get full key travel.
I do have mechanical keyboards and feel like I get a benefit from them, but I think you can get most of the way there with a standard non-laptop-style keyboard with keys that go all the way down.
Although interestingly reading this thread it seems like there are a lot of people who like the laptop-style keys, so who knows. Maybe it's all just muscle memory.
I have a mechanical keyboard I made myself, it uses blues (I've also used browns but I like blues a bit more) and I completely and wholly do not mind my laptop. I don't even have a preference between the two.
I don't get all the hate, but maybe I'm just too undiscriminating.
So why did you go for a mechanical keyboard if you're fine with a laptop keyboard?
I ask because to me the point of a mechanical keyboard is that you want more feedback/certainty on your keypress than an ordinary desktop keyboard gives.
If you don't notice the difference between a desktop keyboard and a laptop keyboard, then what does a mechanical keyboard add?
I wanted a programmable keyboard, and more keys, and a custom one does those things very well. Also, it was fun to build, and hopefully one of these days I'll finish the writeup on how I built it.
On the other hand, I had to hold myself back from spending several hundred dollars on a 'limited edition' set of keycaps that had pastel dots instead of letters, and am typing this on a 36 key, Ortholinear/column split hand-built (but not by me) keyboard, so your mileage may vary.
You've never drunk-purchased GMK Mitolet when it was available because your classic 'flat' SA Mitolet was starting to get shiny? You've never entered a raffle whose prize is the privilege of buying a single artsy keycap? You've never bought the same keyboard, but with different color anodization?
So I am using my Ergodox EZ (have to upgrade to moonlander at some point) for three years now. I also first learned Colemak and then Halmak and am now as happy as I ever could be with my keyboard setup.
Having accustomed to using a Thinkpad Trackpoint, I am always struggling with separate keyboard and mouses. I mean, I rarely use the mouse, but cannot completely ditch it.
The ergonomics of a split keyboard is very appealing. For the last months, I’ve simply used two thinkpad trackpoint usb keyboards as a cheap but working substitute :-D
The Tex Yoda II might be of interest, its just a small mechboard with a trackpoint and of course mouse buttons. Even more so, maybe the (also Tex) Kodachi or Shinobi, which are basically just thinkpad keyboards but mechanical
Oh boy. I’ve nearly taken the plunge myself because I wanted a very compact, efficient keyboard, but most of these aren’t Bluetooth (I’d have bought an Ergodox Planck if it was), and after researching building my own I nearly pulled the trigger on it. Then I bought a €20 Bluetooth keyboard on Xmas: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/02/19/1830
The upshot of my experience is that the Apple Magic Keyboard is still amazing - flat, compact, quiet - and that it could be improved by being split or angled ergonomically - and I’d buy a keyboard that did exactly that (or what I bought for €20) with a good, quality build.
(Alternate layouts, however, I believe to be a tad too much. I can and do switch between various regional variations of QWERTY on Mac and PC without looking at the keys - since I code in US layouts but need to type accented characters on PC and Mac - but going Workman or Colemak would make it hellish to switch between machines as often as I need to…)
I have done just this, Dactyl Manuform with trackball custom generated with clojure (horrible) and trackball brutally added in meshmixer then 3d printed at home, it's fantastic. The fun starts with firmware.
I'll never understand the obsession with 'less keys' amongst the mechanical keyboard 'scene'.
I usually use a Filco Tenkeyless (Cherry Browns), and removing the usually-redundant numeric keypad brings the mouse a bit closer to my right hand, so a bit more comfortable and a little bit of space saved. But I can't see the benefit of going smaller ever outweighting the cost of re-learning to type. Adapting to laptop keyboards when used to full-size can be tricky enough...
The common argument is fewer keys means less finger travel means better ergonomics. Hopefully someone with actual experience (i.e. not me) can chime in.
I use Karabiner to create ergonomic combinations on my Mac, and consequently I use my full-size keyboard as if it were a very small one (while awaiting a proper mech keyboard).
And yes, I love having all numbers and symbols at my fingertips without moving my hands. I don’t type faster but I type more comfortably.
I also have the basic editing tools arranged logically so I can move/delete/select a character/word/line at a time, to the left/right. Again without moving my hands.
One can re-learn in a matter of weeks. The smaller the keyboard the less the fingers have to travel. I still have a full numpad setup with 44 keys and it’s a lot more comfortable to use than a normal keyboard.
75% is kinda new-ish, still. I've been using my Filco TKL since 2010, when 75% was not particularly available. If needing to buy new then I think yeah 75% is a good idea, but I don't think there's any utility in replacing a perfectly working TKL with a 75%.
I got tired of trying to figure out which of the 'Print Screen -> PgDn' cluster to shuffle around, or have on the top layer, which is why I moved from a 65% to TKL.
Plus, I feel like TKL is better-supported by aftermarket keycap sets, if you care about having the correct row sculpt for a key.
The thumb is strong, and the pinky finger is weak.
It would be better to use the thumb more, and not rely on the pinky finger as much.
Compared to a standard keyboard, these small keyboards typically have more keys for the thumb to access. (e.g. the planck has 2-3 per thumb). And once esc/tab/enter/backspace are used by the thumb, you don't need to use the pinky for these.
One way to use the pinky finger even less: you'd probably move away from using the pinky for Ctrl/Win/Alt modifiers, and use home-row modifiers instead.
I do think "layering vs more keys" is a trade-off and not everyone will have the same preference. But I think the advantages to using fewer keys outweigh the downsides.
I don't quite understand it either, I got the same Filco tenkeyless MX brown which I got ten years ago and I'm happy with it.
But I do think it's pretty neat there's so much to choose from. How many people are complaining about a truly compact smartphone in the size of the original iPhone SE for example? You can choose between "large", "very large", and "I used to have a TV that's small than this". I think it's pretty neat that all these options exist, silly as I personally may think some of them are.
I went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole too, luckily I got out before buying any of the expensive keyboards. Started with a blue switch keyboard. Found the travel time way too long and the high rise keys were hurting my wrists. I found myself typing slower on it than usual and making more mistakes. Then I switched to a low profile blue switch keyboard. This one I actually enjoyed. But in the end, I still got back to a scissor switch keyboard (A4Tech KV-300H). For me personally, the flatter the keyboard, the better. I loved butterfly keyboard on Macbook too, shame they switched to standard scissor switch.
For work I’ve become so very accustom to using a HHKB - in the office I use a HHKB Professional Hybrid Type-S. the Topre switches are essentially perfect for me, and the layout is so comfortable for me
But personally at home I’m really enjoying the ability to customise the layout, switches and keycaps. I have two keyboards which I swap between at home, a tokyo60, a hot swap board which emulates the HHKB layout, within which I have quiet linear switches “Prevail Epsilons”. And a Drop CTRL, a “ten keyless” design which is also hotswappable, in which I use “Glorious Pandas”; a tactile type switch like Cherry MX Browns, which I feel are better.
At this stage of the game I’m pretty much finished, like with hifi audio, it’s very easy for this to get out of hand quickly.
Been there done that.
First I got an IBM buckling spring keyboard. I had forgotten how much I hated the sound and force needed for a keypress. Then some with Cherry switches, they where also meh. Then a Topre clone, just to find out that I actually prefer rubber domes. Now I'm using a cheap low profile Dell.
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 182 ms ] threadOne thing that I still haven't quite figured out is Vim... How do people use Vim with an alternative layout? do you keep the same keybindings and just deal with it(hjkl are not nicely in line for example) or do you remap each action to the physical location it would be on a qwerty keyboard (i.e. navigating with mnei for example)?
> Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right? ;-)
With this article sentence I wholeheartedly stand. It’s important to know and optimize tools you’re using most of waking time. Keyboard promises improvement both health and performance wise. Same with layout. Yet both unorthodox keyboards and layouts are considerate investments. Even more so if they are customizable. And it might be possible that they’ll never pay off.
I had situations that match common theme: I’m heavily focused on a problem. I’m coding away and that at some point I stumble and fall. I can’t remember combination for some shortcut I’ve been using in ages. Instead of working furiously on the problem I’m solving “where is the key” problem now. The other situation is the stressful one. I found out that under situations that stress me I forgot complex customizations. Keyboard layouts? They don’t work.
This get amplified if you have multiple keyboards to work with. I’ve used Dvorak for more then a year - didn’t stick. Split keyboards with standard layout - same. Non orthodox keyboards - even after more than year of using it didn’t work. For keyboard.io I went so far that I got multiple ones to try to avoid “switch fatigue” and ended giving them out.
Right now I’m using standard full size low key keyboard with numpad and additional F-keys for bindings. It works, has low latency (latency IS an issue with many keyboards), my hands don’t get tired because there is almost non pressure required (and I type a lot while getting older every day) and that’s the best keyboard I have. Right now I’m considering actually getting rid of tenkeyless keyboard for my gaming pc because lack of keys and all those combos to get to F-s just annoys me when I want to script something. It simply puts a problem in front of me that I didn’t intend to solve.
Craftsman has to care for their tools. I agree. But choosing battles is important too.
Tenkeyless are supposed to have function keys - they only lack the numpad cluster. Sounds like you went down to a 65% or so?
I’d never buy a keyboard without them but the trend is logical.
I disagree. A numpad can be nice to have if you have to input lots of numbers, or use a calculator app. I often use the END-key when editing text to jump to the end of a line, similarly for POS1. So IMO this has not so much to do with being technical or not.
For anyone else like me who might not know all the shortcuts, ctrl+l takes your mouse to the url bar! This changed everything for me when I learnt this, ctrl+w is great too!
My daily driver keyboard is the older Apple wireless keyboard. There one that uses the AA battery. Mainly because this has the exact same layout as my MacBook Pro. This keyboard plus the trackpad works great for me. I don’t understand why Apple did not revert to the inverted arrow keys on the external keyboard. Now there is no way to get the same exact layout on a MacBook Pro and with an external keyboard from Apple.
But... if you're non-technical, then considering you may encounter a situation where you need to use the keys (e.g. "press ctrl+alt+delete"), choosing a keyboard where it's more complicated to press those keys seems a weird choice.
I think the people who opt for small keyboards are more likely to be keyboard-enthusiastic, and go for e.g. vim or emacs as their main text editors.
It also helps when you need desk space for things other than computer use, but I admit that benefit is marginal.
Also much nicer for playing Civ and other games that don't use WASD for camera control.
Back when I used a 60% and was working in a physical office, I had mapped arrows to Fn + [i, j, k, l]. This allowed me to barely move my right hand, at the cost of holding some other key with my left pinky. Overall, my wrists barely had to move.
I think this video[0] is a great introduction why people who don't take their laptops around enjoy using tiny keyboards.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54
I never used to use the numpad layout, now I do but on shifted keys and can also use it on my Macbooks and other small keyboards.
(Note, a lot of the keyboard community stuff seems to assume you're going to use one specific hardware keyboard. I do have a bunch of odd keyboards, but I mostly use software to remap the keys rather than firmware, so I can be consistent across keyboards).
Maybe if I was plugging into more weird computers I'd need to bake it in to the keyvoard device, but at the moment software has been good enough for everything I need).
Now I just have a separate calculator for whatever I’d do with the numpad.
The problem tends to be in finding commercially-made backlit clicky keyboards without a numpad.
I have binds that directly open browser, Emacs, terminal and even IM so that I don't have to use mouse. Some are more macroable, e.g. I had a job where I had to retype things from images (imagine the cost effectiveness), but because I'm lazy type I made a macro under a key that would screenshot -> OCR, key next to it was opening target app.
I think most keyboards which give the thumb more keys also follow this trend of taking away the numpad, F-keys, arrows; often even the number-row as well. (Maybe just my bias, but I think most keyboards with more thumbkeys are symmetrical, too).
While there's a trade-off "moving hand to a greater number of keys" against "complexity, like layering".. I think the small keyboards make more efficient use of the hands compared to standard keyboards. -- My guess is that people who try designs with more thumb keys then think layering is pretty neat.
Consider that thumb is responsible for 50% of hand function [1]. And we use it to press only one button - the space bar. While pinky is the weakest finger andd we use it for the greatest number of keys...
[1] https://musculoskeletalkey.com/restoration-of-thumb-function...
To me, a "thumb cluster" should be just a single row of 1.5u keys. Any secondary rows above those aren't reachable by thumb, so they rarely get used, and therefore might as well be removed.
Maybe others have a different experience, but I still use my thumb mainly to press the space bar and enter keys. All other thumb keys are modifiers and layer switches.
Numpads can be nice in certain situations, but the vast majority of the time they also get little usage from me. For the times when I do need one, I have a discrete numpad (KBDPad MKII) which I can place freely on my desk (so it’s not robbing me of mouse space) and tuck away in a drawer when it’s not needed. Best of both worlds.
Also, it simply takes up desk space. If I don't need it, why have it?
Except for the part that programmers spend far more time reading than writing.
An ajustable monitor and a good chair payoff way more than an expensive keyboard.
I still don't get the keyboard hype.
It was probably typing furiously. Maybe not a constant dictation stream 150+WPM, but it was surges of input in response to a creative flow in your mind.
Buying stuff for a one off ocasion when it might become handy, isn't my philosophy.
When I read code, it's not a passive activity. I'm navigating and searching. Sometimes I bring up external documentation. In short, I'm interacting with my computer. For me, reading code requires typing.
Reading is passive, whether you like it or not.
> I'm navigating and searching. Sometimes I bring up external documentation.
If you spend as much time navigating as reading or analysing you have an organization problem.
> In short, I'm interacting with my computer. For me, reading code requires typing.
I can concede that when debugging one must press keys to make the ide progress through code however I find spending $100 to comfortably press a key every few seconds wasteful.
Managers, on the other hand, might benefit of good keyboards if they spend most of their time writing emails back to back.
That of course doesn't mean I shit on the whole keyboard industry. I can appreciate a wonderful, thoughtful design that's tailored to someone's specific need. However, turns out that in that particular area I'm a basic bitch :P
Jack White (of White Stripes) makes and plays a guitar with a bottle, a board, a string, and a pickup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_F7aiOvdwE
I still get wrist strain because the angle of my hands which the Moonlander would have fixed... however I heard a big issue with the Moonlander is you need to always look at your hands before you begin to type - because you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again
I used to have this issue. Then I realized that if you tilt the Moonlander, there's a gap between the thumb cluster and the rest of the keyboard. Locating the half of the keyboard is a matter of just moving your hand towards the keys until your thumb slides into that gap. (It sounds complicated but in reality it isn't.)
During isolation I bought my first mechanical keyboard (a cheap Qisan Magicforce 68, that I wholeheartly recommend). I quickly learned to use it and still love it at home.
A few months ago I bought a kinesis advantage for my office. I'm fully used to it (although it took me a while to stop hitting wrong keys).
When I bought both keyboards, I already knew how to touch type and went back to typeracer, keybr and monkeytype. My speed did not increase that much and I still get my fastest speeds on my macbook pro integrated keyboard.
The main reason why I use an external keyboard is to solve my back problems, by using a stand or an external screen.
In particular, I get my slowest typing speeds on my kinesis advantage. It is NOT built for speed, it is built for comfort. It allowed me to improve my posture considerably so it's still worth it.
PS: in my experience, using a laptop stand / external monitor helps with the lower back problems (weirdly). I solved my upper back problems by doing more exercise, and it's as easy as having some elastic bands near my desk and trying to stretch them horizontally behind my neck a few minutes a day (when I'm reading a long email or pdf or thinking or need a break).
PS2: a must-have on macOS is karabiner. I use it to have nicer keybindings for french accents (modifier keys like `) but also to configure function keys on my kinesis advantage and put navigation shortcuts on my mouse (logitech G502).
It has little in the way of layout customization (3 position DIP switch on the back of mine), but that's just fine for a first board. It also has a mostly-standard layout, so if you wanted to get aftermarket keycaps, you don't need to sweat too much about compatibility or odd sizes.
1. Realizing how much dead space there is on a normal keyboard (capslock, the space bar doesn't need to be so big, many keys you might want to use frequently are in awkward spots, like the numbers).
2. Being able to fully customize the layout to your liking. I don't think anyone agrees 100% on what the ideal layout is, but once you get more comfortable with layers and testing various layouts it gets pretty easy to adjust.
3. Finding out how quickly you can adapt to multiple layouts by just sticking with it. You won't be perfect the first time, and you might struggle to briefly when you switch back to a normal board, but people vastly underestimate how good humans are at adaptation.
There's also a bonus level of just having nice keys/switches. While this is the part that can get pricey, as someone who's typing all the time it really does feel like a worthy expense.
The major downsides being that it can get expensive fast (at least if you're picky), you might need some level of soldering skill, and there are times where you DON'T want to be the person with the fancy keyboard that no one else can use (I always have a normal one plugged in at work just in case).
Still i'm super glad I got into it. I'm a huge fan of 40% boards just because of the portability and the space they save. I'm typing all this, on a mercutio and my work daily driver is a low profile crkbd (I do analytics and some low end/intermediate coding).
The only issue i've ever run into is that I'm a fan of roguelikes, and while most games don't need too many keys, those in particular seem to have this habit of the designer trying to use EVERY key on a full sized keyboard, so i'm working on a layer for that.
These days my main is an 1800 keyboard, numpad and all, and it's fine.
Yup. That's why the best format for me is the "84 key" or "75%", which is roughly "laptop layout". You get all the Fx keys, arrows, home/end/etc, but no numpad, and it's smaller than the "tenkeyless" format.
I find it much more comfortable for having the mouse closer. For some reason, this format doesn't seem as widespread as the one without the Fx row.
I rest my hands on the laptop's left and right edges, not on the home keys... and no I don't "hunt and peck", I touch-type at 90wpm. But I love function keys, give me more function keys! I dream of the Hyper7 [1]
[1] http://xahlee.info/kbd/hyper_7_keyboard.html
I wonder if some of these preferences have to do with how long your fingers are.
It wouldn't even occur to me to try and access the F row from homehow without moving my arm. But if my fingers were a bit longer I could see how I might do it, even if it wasn't good for my joints.
I was talking with a friend about how he had issues reaching some keys which seem easy to reach for me. And I don't think I have particularly big hands, I can't reach any F key if my fingers are on the home row. I can barely reach 4 and 8, but it's uncomfortable.
In a similar vein, I also find split right shift which carves 1u off the right end of the right shift key to add an Fn key nice for improving quality of life on 60/65% boards. For me that Fn positioning is much more natural, plus it puts that duty on my right hand which is typically much less loaded down with modifiers than my left hand is.
https://i.redd.it/vjbpi0rtx1q41.jpg I guess in this case delete/back space are the same key. which makes sense. well until you want to press ctrl+delete or ctrl+backspace.
Think I need pics here.
In the case of the HHKB specifically Fn+tilde is Del, but most boards allow this to be remapped.
For 65%, things get more spotty. Off the top of my head I’m not aware of any prebuilt 65% boards that use this layout.
For both 60% and 65%, there’s a huge number of build-it-yourself kits as well as separate PCBs, cases, etc that support this layout. It’s a bit of a rabbit hole (as alluded to with this post’s title), but if you have the patience by far building your own board gives you the greatest degree of control.
I'm familiar with the idea of the HHKB and am looking up the Tokyo60 now.
Muscle memory is something you gain over time regardless. I was just tired of my keyboard taking up so much deskspace when I basically never used 30% of the keys on it.
Or if you think "oh, it looks like fun to design a keyboard PCB". :o)
Laptops used to handle this by having a toggleable numpad on top of the letters. That is, if you pressed a button (analogous to numlock) then the keys u/i/o would input 7/8/9, and j/k/l would input 4/5/6, etc.
I found it very convenient, but they stopped including that for some reason.
It doesn't feel the same as actual keys, but it is better than nothing.
My dad uses numeric keypads a lot (habit from years of working in payroll & similar, lots of figures and basic arithmetic to type) but doesn't like the function-key-to-overload-keys-for-a-keypad due t the extra key and the key alignment not being quite right. He has a USB add-on keypad that he plus into laptops when convenient (i.e. when desk space allows).
At a minimum, your keyboard should function as a port expander / dock for video, usb (all of them), flash, headphone ports. Most techies have multiple machines, so it should probably be a kvm switch as well. It should support both wired and wireless modes. It could also be a wifi network switch or range extender. Why not double as a power strip?
When I realized this it was eye opening. I used to have an MIT layout Planck (2u) spacebar, I tried a full grid and it feels perfect for spacebar to just be another 1u key.
Is your space bar the same size as a regular key ?
Why Capslock at all?
I don't think in two decades I have ever hit that key ... on purpose.
My keyboard enables me to create up to 32 different layers. I have 3 that I use 99.98% of the time.
My caps lock is available by pressing a key next to my left handed thumb and then pressing the key formerly known as the caps lock key.
https://www.artisantg.com/itemimages/AB_1747_PT1_View1.jpg
Most recently I've been working reusing some old keyboards to create giant surfaces full of labelled launchers and shortcuts - I had to spend a few days working out what software solution I wanted but I'm about to do some actual device config this evening. I think the labelling strategy works when you explicitly go wide and turn things you would normally browse for or type a line for into massive quantities of macro keys. When it's a frequently accessed thing, it has to stay near your fingers which favors chording, combinations, modes and context sensitivity.
But training my muscle memory that way turned out to be more of a pain than a gain.
As a freelancer, I'm frequently in a situation where I'm forced to use a laptop that a client has provided, with a German layout. Oftentimes I will not have an external keyboard on hand, like I'm in a meeting room and didn't want to bring one, or I'm on a plane or train.
In order to make that work, you'd need to be a pretty disciplined typist who doesn't rely on the labels on the keys at all so as not to be confused by them when they're in a different layout.
Back in those days, there were also many edge cases, like the login screen etc., where you couldn't customize your layout away from some default that the client has configured.
Also: Most of the pain comes from curly braces. So when you're doing Python & Nim you're mostly okay using a European layout. I also think it's probably not a coincidence that the people behind those languages are Europeans, Guido van Rossum and Andreas Rumpf.
My home computer is in the living room shared with my family, it still has a German layout, so I switch between US and German pretty often. I can type on both keyboards fluently. Somehow my brain knows that the computers have different keyboard layouts.
The only thing that still confuses me is a cheap backup keyboard that I have (when bluetooth doesn't work), which has a UK layout....
It mostly works, I'm absolutely trained to expect qwerty, but my keyboard at home (G710+) tells my muscle memory to start typing with a German layout now. I've not had to use any clients' laptops for many years but I could see the problem, I have it when someone hands me a ThinkPad with German layout for example, but I'm willing to tolerate to type garbage once a month in exchange for being able to work with the layout I actually prefer.
Does anyone have experience with using stickers? Can anyone recommend a good product there? -- maybe that would help with the awkwardness of internal laptop keyboards.
I can still type on a German layout, but only in German. I think the language change provides enough of a "context switch" for my brain.
[1] https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/layout.html
The advantage is you get to keep both alt keys as alts. The downside is that you lose the Windows key, but I remap that to caps-lock.
You gain £ and ¬ with the extra key (and € with AltGr), although a few symbols are moved round: # and ~ end up easier to type, ¬ is kicked into the corner, and @ and " are switched compared to the US layout.
There is a Dutch keyboard layout that is similar to the German one, but the US-International layout is almost universally used in the Netherlands, and has been for as long as I recall (mid 80s). I've only seen a keyboard with the Dutch layout once (and I've seen a lot of old second-hand hardware over the years!)
So in the case of Python at least, I think it probably wasn't a consideration.
Most German programmers I know use US-International btw, but I don't know how common that is.
I know a lot of German programmers, as I am one myself and I work a fair amount in German companies, and I never knew a single one who used US-International (apart from myself in the brief phase described above).
My first mechanical keyboard was a Razer Blackwidow with Cherry MX Blue switches. Next, I bought a blank-key Das with Cherry MX Brown. Since then I've used an Input Club K-Type, a Tesoro Durandal, and some Logitech keyboard with MX Reds. I actually really liked the MX Reds, way more than I thought I would. So when I ordered the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard it was with Box Reds. I also still have an Input Club Nightfox waiting to be assembled in my closet - it's been there for years. I should probably just sell it at this point.
In regards to layouts, I too prefer US layout for coding. But I live in a European country with special characters and have gotten used to using that layout. The UHK, however, will come with a US layout and I'll map the special characters to alternative keys. I hadn't delved much into special key mappings on my boards yet, so that'll be interesting. I got it with the trackball module in hopes of never needing to use a mouse again.
At minimum, you should easily be able to get MSRP for a sealed kit. If I wasn't stretched for fun-money and display shelf space, I'd make an initial offer of $150 if it was sealed, or at least new-in-box with all the pieces. If it's the True Fox (split backspace) layout, I'll kick myself extra hard in a few years for not buying it anyways.
Aesthetically, it's still very pretty, and if you have your own keyboard shelf, it may be nice to at least assemble and display it. If you fancy yourself the tinkering type, design files for the board and case are available: https://github.com/kiibohd
I did drool over this board as well and then just never built it, and I think mostly I liked the _idea_ and beauty of it rather than the thought of using it itself (and now having ordered the UHK I doubt I'll ever really get around to building it). I might keep it around a bit longer for nostalgia reasons, but I know I need to learn to let go of these kinds of things at some point.
The same happened to me with the Rama M65-B (the ICED option), except it cost more money. I flirt with the idea of selling it, to put the money to use somewhere else, but I'm still too emotionally invested in the thing, as well as the nebulous 'potential' it may have for me in the future, whether as an art piece, a gift to someone, etc. Whichever way, another year or two won't matter much, and I have enough closet space to hold on to it for now.
If you're regularly clearing things out, maybe do a quick inventory of the contents, and put it all in a box with the 'last access time' written on it? It could help remind you of how long you've been waiting to make a decision.
Now using an Apple magic keyboard. It’s quiet, doesn’t make me hurt, actually has all the keys I need and doesn’t piss anyone off.
Now all I'm looking for is a split compact version of these Topre-like keyboards. Pretty much 99% of the custom keyboard scene is just various housing and PCBs for cherry style switches. For whatever reason with electro-capactive keyboards there are limited options. If anyone knows of a split topre keyboard please let me know!
See: https://rmi-kb.com/niz-ec60/
Something that uses MX-compatible (or alps) switches is going to have an easier time being designed and built, because all you need to do is have an up-to-date footprint to copy/paste in your PCB designer program.
Behold, my one-and-only foray into making my own PCB design. I just followed guides online, and it still took me about $300~$500 to get this from 0 to a working and typing prototype: https://imgur.com/gallery/lZglox7
People have certainly tried [1][2], but the big issue in the design is that the switches don't operate as a standard on/off (trivial to detect), but are instead capacitive, in that the current passing through the electrocapacitive pad on the PCB is somewhere between 1 and 0 (exclusive bounds, iirc, and simplified) at all times, dependent on how far the 'switch' above it is being pressed. This old repo seems to explain it well: https://github.com/tomsmalley/custom-topre-guide
Price and marketability are also issues. Split keebs are niche, ortho keebs are niche, EC keebs are niche, and you're talking about fusing those three together. People would 100% buy in, but it would probably be a microscopic market, to the point where the project would be financially lossy, even if you were selling them for $400 apiece.
The closest you/one might get for now is by buying two of these[3], unless you're dedicated enough to DIY.
[1]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97975.0 [2]: https://aficionerds.com/en/blog/20210205_crkbd_ec/ [3]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106685.0 (Groupbuy is ended, so you'd have to rely on aftermarket, which would probably be tiny and marked up)
This is something that quite a lot of keyboards have, and I find it terrible. The most comfortable keyboards I've ever used have been the Logitech Wave and the MS Sculpt wireless. I prefer the latter, since I never use the numpad, and the keys feel better. Overall it has a cheaper feel, though, and wrist rest padding is falling apart after some 3 years of use.
But I also love my Keychron K2 v1 with Gateron browns, which is flat (Fx row at the same height as the Space row). It's quite high, mind, but an after-market wrist rest has fixed that, and it's a really lovely typing experience. It's quieter than most "basic keyboards" (think basic office keyboards from Dell, etc) and the smooth, low-resistance keys are great for finger fatigue.
I switched to Apple chicklet keyboard because I thought is would resolve sore wrists I had with membrane keyboard.
Then I switched to mechanical keyboard because the sore wrists was even worse with Apple flat keyboard. Same path for few of my mates.
I didn't spend that much because I don't care about aesthetic (iKBC 60 MX Brown for work and DIY 60 Kailh white with QMK for home), never went back.
But for work I've used a Mac keyboard for years as well, the numpad-less compact model. It's great and my go-to / default.
But, I bought into the Moonlander hype as well, currently typing this on one and trying to get used to it. I'm a quick typer but no keyboard warrior; typing this message seems to be fine, but coding is a lot more painful or difficult to get used to; I use the arrow keys, which are in awkward positions on the Moonlander; I use some keyboard combinations to select or navigate across whole words, that's some muscle memory that needs to be retrained and the finger combo seems weird. Feels like I have to stretch my fingers a lot more for anything that isn't just typing shitposts on the internets.
Might just be getting used to things, might be I need to relearn some muscle memory, or might be I should finally learn vim or emacs since that's apparently what all the cool kids do. I could never get into it myself, even knowing some tricks, navigating is still painful in vim to me.
> coding is a lot more painful or difficult to get used to
Primarily, it was the symbols, {}()[]$ etc, which were hardest to hit for me. I put my Layer 1 "hold" key to the left of my H key (I use the QWERTY layout) and have remapped keys under my left hand to output symbols with Layer 1. It takes some memorizing to remember which key to press for each symbol, but it is not too bad.
> I use the arrow keys, which are in awkward positions on the Moonlander
I used to use the arrow keys using my middle and index finger. Now I use my thumbs. It's a lot easier this way.
> finger combo seems weird
Try remapping those modifier keys to an easier-to-reach key, or alternatively setting up a macro key (for example, I have a Command-space macro key because command and space are on the same thumb cluster in my layout).
Addendum, for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all. Really you just put a hand on each split and that’s all there is to it.
I'm guessing this is only true if your finger alignment matches with what you need for the split keyboard? I think a lot of people are used to using their right hand for some of the keys on the left side of the split and/or vice versa.
But somehow, the different layout of an ergonomic keyboard doesn't bother me. I can go back and forth between my MS sculpt and a laptop with absolutely no issues aside from the position of home/end which aren't in the same order.
The size and the layout are exactly the same apart for touch ID. It is great, zero adaptation between switching desktop configuration or mobile.
Maybe its not the "elite" experience of the mechanical keyboards, it's still pretty good and it's definitely a privilege not having to adapt between keyboards.
It's kind of surprising that people optimising for minute differences between clickiness of different key mechanisms wouldn't bother to optimize for this.
I went from typing 110WPM to 30WPM. After a week of practice I was at 50WPM. Two weeks in and I was at 60WPM. Most importantly, typing was now an activity that required thought, instead of simply flowing. At this point I was sufficiently frustrated and felt slowed down enough I stopped and went back to a traditional keyboard.
I'm sure that with enough time I would reach my original speed and effort. But I have spent more than a decade building this muscle memory, and I didn't feel it was worth it to spend another decade building muscle memory on non-commodity hardware.
Nowadays I'm on 130WPM, so any barrier to switch is even higher. I do understand that my experience is very atypical since I am (supposedly) in the top 0.1% percentile of typing speeds.
Ergonomic instruments increase comfort, which increases stamina and lower risks of injuries. Better ergonomy may increase per minute throughput, or decrease it. Rather measure throughput per day or even per week or longer; also factor in the potential consequence of injury leading to using the instrument at a fraction of the average user's speed for a good few months at least.
I would be a lot more cautious about injury if I was doing a lot more sustained writing. But mostly I am doing technical writing and programming, which usually involves a lot of thinking followed by a small sprint of actually typing. If this small sprint doesn't break my flow or train of thought, it's perfect.
But during that time, I forced myself to finally learn how to touch type. Now I get 90+WPM consistently. More if I warm up and actually go for speed. Learning to type very differently than I used to probably helped to make the transition faster (no bad habits).
So now I have the advantage of typing faster, without looking at the keyboard at all and better ergonomics (it helped with my shoulder pain). The biggest downside is now I can't type on a normal keyboard anymore. The problem is I never tried touch typing on staggered keyboard so it's like learning an entirely new keyboard layout. Not a big issue during the past year due to work from home though.
[1] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
Other people really trip up on it, almost as badly as switching actual layouts to e.g. Colemak. If someone out there hits that point and wants to get past it, the requirement is to train out errors, using a typing trainer which penalizes mistakes by, for example, requiring a word to be typed correctly before the next word is allowed.
Breaking the errors is a prerequisite for any jump in typing speed, whether that's a plateau or a new platform. It's annoying but it's the only thing which works.
Regular keyboards are different enough that switching between them already negates muscle memory for me
If you keep switching as part of your protocol, it's fine
been using a 60% mechanical here at home for work and play for a while now (about a year at this point). best keyboard I have ever used, bar-none. The only problem is that my muscle memory is so damn used to it now that I find it a little difficult to be productive on larger keyboards.
Any time I want to move the cursor with the arrow keys, i find my right hand straying down to where the 'fn' key should be, etc.
not really a huge problem -- I'm working on replacing existing keyboards that I use everywhere with the same 60% model because I love it so much, but just soemthing I've noticed.
I know some of it is just that - what you're used to - but I have several native colleagues that have switched to US layouts for coding as well.
As for small keyboards, that's the old man in me I guess. At some point in my youth either with Turbo Pascal or word perfect, I got used to Ctrl-Insert to copy, Shift-delete to cut, Shift-Insert to paste. Not only that Home/End/Page up/Page down are some of my most commonly used keys writing code. Number pads are nice but I would take a serious hit without my nav keys.
The main reason is the easy access to brackets, slashes, quotation marks, etc. compared to non-US keyboards where most of those are only accessible via key combinations, and really awkward ones as well.
I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it.
- ThinkPads, which seem to divided between US and UK layout here - Apple, which supplies the ISO layout (shortened left-shift, thin vertical Enter) by default, but thankfully has started to offer US as an option on their web store since a few years - Logitech which only sells ISO layouts in Europe, and all US layout seem to come from private import
Is that fair? I’m not a German but from another N. European country. I have made my own keyboard config which I use for everything. But I also have a keybind to switch to a normal (or our own local layout) when somebody else is about to use my computer. So if I don’t forget to use it it would seem like I just use the regular keyboard layout.
My own config evolved like this: first I had two layouts for my own language and English/programming, respectively. But switching layouts became a pain in the neck in my latest local job where we chat in our own language, code in English, of course chat in English with our foreign consultants... so I had to make my keyboard config work with all three (native lang/English/programming). I’ve never tried to get used to the US layout but I would have to use the same layout switching approach since the US layout (even the international one) wouldn’t work well enough with my native language.
Can’t say that I appreciate this kind of judgement. What do you know about people’s personal setups? Well, unless they out of resentment just decide to explain like I just did. :)
I would really like a modal editor with a more customizable "normal mode" layout.
For example, i enters insert mode, dd deletes a line, f moves forward a char, etc.
You can record a macro by pressing q followed by another key, followed by any string of keystrokes, and ended by pressing q again.
So qbxxxq would save a macro to the b register that deletes three characters. You play it back with @b.
The neat thing is that macros are recorded in plain text, so pressing "bp would print the contents of the b register (xxx).
You can even write out the keystrokes of a new macro, then yank (copy) that text into a register with y"b (for the b register), and pay it back like normal (by pressing @b).
Anyway, the trouble with this ingenious system is that x isn't just the delete key, it's the delete function. You can map another key to do the x function; but at the end of the day, there's no getting away from the original function names, and therefore no way to get away from the original keybindings.
I've tried remapping keys in vim, and I always end up with an unusable mess, because I have to remap every key or lose access to functionality, and remapping some functions isn't as easy as you might expect.
I would rather, as a user, start from the ground up and define my own normal mode bindings, with regular function names like delete-char() or whatever.
It's too late for me to edit the comment.
A Dutch keyboard layout is a thing, but I've never seen one, just heard of some writers/editors using it.
Mechanical keyboards are nice, but try not to fall into the consumerist trap of throwing away hundreds if not thousands of dollars chasing keyboard perfection.
But still like the mechanical keyboards, maybe I need to try one with lower profile.
Long term, what I really want in a split mechanical keyboard: trackballs on both sides, near the spacebar, with intuitive mouse triggers built in. Maybe even a trackpad on one side, trackball on the other. That would be slick. One input device.
The wide split is great for shoulders and the shortcut panel helps with cutting down on common multi-key movements (copy, paste, etc).
The Pro steps up from the other Freestyles with mechanical keys and programmability. I'm using the programmability to remap some of the modifier keys for comfort. Combined with the panel of common shortcuts, it's much easier on my hands.
A bonus of having a programmable keyboard is that you don't need to rebind keys in the OS, something that's not always possible to do in corporate environments.
https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/
One thing I really love about the Freestyle is that, with the stands and hand rests, it actually sits very nicely in the lap, for when you want to sit in the living room with the laptop on a coffee table.
I kid, I kid, it's all down to preference... That said, you can get yourself a single mechanical keyboard and call it a day, until one day you try a different board/layout with different switches. Maybe at your friends house, or at a shop, or more than likely: at work. You'll be forever wondering "I liked that...".
Keyboards really are a special tool for us. I've spent considerable amount of time and money on them, and I consider myself fairly frugal (well, in non keyboard related matters). All to say, it's very easy to fall into this rabbit hole, especially when you spend so much time working with these things...
That's why you start with Blue and only when they complain you switch to Brown. ;)
Source: I own a keychron k2 v1 with Gateron browns and a CoolerMaster something and Das S with Cherry browns.
I do have mechanical keyboards and feel like I get a benefit from them, but I think you can get most of the way there with a standard non-laptop-style keyboard with keys that go all the way down.
Although interestingly reading this thread it seems like there are a lot of people who like the laptop-style keys, so who knows. Maybe it's all just muscle memory.
I don't get all the hate, but maybe I'm just too undiscriminating.
I ask because to me the point of a mechanical keyboard is that you want more feedback/certainty on your keypress than an ordinary desktop keyboard gives.
If you don't notice the difference between a desktop keyboard and a laptop keyboard, then what does a mechanical keyboard add?
You're probably fine.
The ergonomics of a split keyboard is very appealing. For the last months, I’ve simply used two thinkpad trackpoint usb keyboards as a cheap but working substitute :-D
Trackpoint under the thumb. Would have been better embedded between keys for your index finger like a thinkpad.
The upshot of my experience is that the Apple Magic Keyboard is still amazing - flat, compact, quiet - and that it could be improved by being split or angled ergonomically - and I’d buy a keyboard that did exactly that (or what I bought for €20) with a good, quality build.
(Alternate layouts, however, I believe to be a tad too much. I can and do switch between various regional variations of QWERTY on Mac and PC without looking at the keys - since I code in US layouts but need to type accented characters on PC and Mac - but going Workman or Colemak would make it hellish to switch between machines as often as I need to…)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpjnojraag3w1uj/20220318_103527.jp...
I usually use a Filco Tenkeyless (Cherry Browns), and removing the usually-redundant numeric keypad brings the mouse a bit closer to my right hand, so a bit more comfortable and a little bit of space saved. But I can't see the benefit of going smaller ever outweighting the cost of re-learning to type. Adapting to laptop keyboards when used to full-size can be tricky enough...
And yes, I love having all numbers and symbols at my fingertips without moving my hands. I don’t type faster but I type more comfortably.
I also have the basic editing tools arranged logically so I can move/delete/select a character/word/line at a time, to the left/right. Again without moving my hands.
Plus, I feel like TKL is better-supported by aftermarket keycap sets, if you care about having the correct row sculpt for a key.
It would be better to use the thumb more, and not rely on the pinky finger as much.
Compared to a standard keyboard, these small keyboards typically have more keys for the thumb to access. (e.g. the planck has 2-3 per thumb). And once esc/tab/enter/backspace are used by the thumb, you don't need to use the pinky for these.
One way to use the pinky finger even less: you'd probably move away from using the pinky for Ctrl/Win/Alt modifiers, and use home-row modifiers instead.
I do think "layering vs more keys" is a trade-off and not everyone will have the same preference. But I think the advantages to using fewer keys outweigh the downsides.
But I do think it's pretty neat there's so much to choose from. How many people are complaining about a truly compact smartphone in the size of the original iPhone SE for example? You can choose between "large", "very large", and "I used to have a TV that's small than this". I think it's pretty neat that all these options exist, silly as I personally may think some of them are.
But personally at home I’m really enjoying the ability to customise the layout, switches and keycaps. I have two keyboards which I swap between at home, a tokyo60, a hot swap board which emulates the HHKB layout, within which I have quiet linear switches “Prevail Epsilons”. And a Drop CTRL, a “ten keyless” design which is also hotswappable, in which I use “Glorious Pandas”; a tactile type switch like Cherry MX Browns, which I feel are better.
At this stage of the game I’m pretty much finished, like with hifi audio, it’s very easy for this to get out of hand quickly.