Fascinating. There is excitement in revolution, even if by objective measures it's worse than what came before, and people will get caught up in it, and even in some cases kill for it. And perhaps for a few people the lack of that excitement is equally fatal.
I would recommend you to read capitalist realism first. It's about 120 pages and not the most complicated essay.
The main idea of fisher is how we seem to have lost the ability to envision futures that are not basically less evil versions of capitalism. Which manifests in depression and odd melancholy of futures of the past.
I enjoy thinking about the hauntologies in our time. I found it very funny that so many lo-fi videos on youtube are made to imitate a 90s anime style. Something about the videos and style is comforting to me and others despite us having never lived through that time. Synth-wave and other genres on youtube also try to imitate a past that never was. Modern hyper-pop of the 2020s does the same to the early 2000s.
The concept of Hauntologies was first introduced by Jacues Derrida[0]. I think it goes hand-in-hand deconstruction.
As an aside, poolside.fm, in addition to being a cool project, also imitates a past that never was[1].
I glanced at the history and noticed you also submitted this same article 3 years ago. That time it got no upvotes. Why did you decide to submit it again now? And any guesses as to why it "caught" this time?
Heh, that's funny. I didn't realize that I had submitted this before. Not sure why it took off this time; could just be random chance. I do think that Fisher's ideas are a bit more relevant post-COVID, though. To a lot of people, the future just seems like a slowly decaying, scary, unpredictable version of the present.
> Why did you decide to submit it again now?
I actually just launched a project that is attempting to "solve" the issue of contemporary society having no positive visions of the future:
Wow .. poolsuite site made smile. Opening it on my 4K monitor reminds me of when I first used Solaris on a Sun Microsystems Workstation. The monitors felt super high res (compared with normal PCs at that time).
Remember those early Sun optical mice that required you to use them on a special mouse pad that had a high-contrast pattern on it for the mouse to track?
I'm a bit sad that I recycled my (freeby, thank you reuse@mit.edu) SGI Indy when I moved from my first to my second apartment after college. "An Indy is and Indigo without the go.", but it was a really beautiful computer case, and a 64-bit MIPS CPU would still be fun to play around with.
I would love to write a small program (maybe called ThrowbackFriday) that on Friday afternoon would kill my X11 window manager and randomly select a window manager popular in the late 90s, or a wm emulating the Win95 look and feel. It should also fire up a music player skinned to look like WinAmp and play some GnR, Bon Jovi, Van Halen, Pearl Jam, REM, Nirvana, Men Without Hats, Toto, Chumbawumba, Hootie and The Blowfish, etc.
Did anyone else remember using twm window manager with Java Swing apps in the early 2000s? Most window managers would ignore nonsense commands to resize windows down to 0x0 pixels, but twm would oblige. I ran twm with 1 px borders and no window menus (to maximize screen real estate), so I needed to watch the redraw carefully to get a good idea at my starting point for a game of "hunt the pixel" to find the 2x2 pixel border and drag the window back to my desired size. I played "hunt the pixel" much more often than actual games.
Ideally, ThrowbackFriday would be configurable where you'd give it a year range to emulate.
Re: nostalgia for when you were not yet born: things like that, with the hyperaestheticism etc, are designed to be ‘coded’ (ie comprised of referential symbols) in the alphabet of “your imagination of that time”, which was pressed into your thoughts via social influence. It is an affirmation of what you’ve been told that time was really like- so it seems like a refuge or safe haven where everything makes sense. In some sense, they are like, well, bait- it’s like “well mass media that can operate during the present is not enough. How about a mass media that is constantly extending itself retroactively into the past as well?”
This is not shade on you. I myself love all kinds of vaporwave, probably to a fault. I think this is part of why The Weird and the Eerie was tough to read for me- you can tell Mark was exasperated about things that should not be juxtaposed. And I can’t help but think these “un-pasts” were probably an obstacle to improving the present.
“There are certainly conspiracies in capitalism, but the problem is that they are themselves only possible because of deeper level structures that allow them to function. Does anyone really think, for instance, that things would improve if we replaced the whole managerial and banking class with a whole new set of ('better') people? Surely, on the contrary, it is evident that the vices are engendered by the structure, and that while the structure remains, the vices will reproduce themselves.”
“The delusion that many who enter into management with high hopes is precisely that they, the individual, can change things, that they will not repeat what their managers had done, that things will be different this time; but watch someone step up to management and it’s usually not long before the grey petrification of power starts to subsume them. It is here that the structure is palpable — you can practically see it taking people over, hear its deadened/deadening judgments speaking through them.”
I had never heard of Mark Fisher, so thanks for sharing.
The fact that he admired Burial has certainly piqued my interest and Mark Fishers focus on futures never-to-be really aligns perfectly with my tendency to wallow in SehnSucht often brought on by Boards of Canada or paintings by Simon Stålenhag: https://www.simonstalenhag.se/
I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that he is the only person to ever interview Burial [1]. Another person he was very interested in, and was certainly right about in terms of their artistic merit is Leyland Kirby aka The Caretaker, who in a very different way manifests Fisher's ideas about hauntology [2].
There's also this common obsession around Burial with music geeks that he (Burial) was so mysterious that no one ever knew who he was, or that he never gave interviews (except to M.F.), which is obviously wrong. There's lots of info on him, similarly to Aphex Twin. I think the lack of media presence is more about intentionally avoiding crap that comes with it.
I agree. I mean in that interview he talks about being a kind nervous/asocial guy. I think Richard has said similar things. Do not blame them at all. And when you can music like they can, you can get away with letting the songs speak for themselves.
One music artist that I've been enjoying listening to lately is Biosphere. Specifically the Substrata album; To me it feels like a foreboding journey of the present with longings of some past.
Biospheres Substrata album is a gem and I can wholeheartedly relate to the feeling you describe it invokes in you. Perhaps you will enjoy something like Bohren und Der Club of Gore as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJwWDO3IrMI
I think Mark Fisher might have.
Thanks for sharing Nigel Cookes paintings, which also clearly has that retrofuturistic vibe with a sprinkling of psychedelia.
This is great, thank you. I love a good music exchange. And the comment below on Adam Curtis leaves me with hours of digging down this particular rabbit hole. Good stuff.
Collage historical/philosophical/political documentary maker Adam Curtis uses Burial a lot, has great things to say[1][2],
> "I think Burial is the genius of our time... The most important Burial song to listen to, which will tell you everything about him, is Come Down to Us... Why it's so incredible, because what Burial does is he takes what is essentially industrial noise - and songs - but fuses them together to create something that is epic and romantic, and sort of gives you a clue of the sort of thing that might be coming, culturally - which is a higher [?] system, I think. And I think he's there ahead of everyone. It's so emotional; yet, at the same time, just noise. And, I don't know, it's just, I can't - sorry, this is me being inarticulate - it's just... wonderful... It takes you into another world."
HyperNormalization & Can't Get You Out Of My Head are both amazing modern Curtis works. Going back & watching some of his older stuff like Bitter Lake has been as ever intense & powerful & stunning. Keeping a real eye on the world, really seeing it, is a talent Fisher & his writing showed off. Curtis gives us a wiser, more understandable interlace of the tapestry, through his documentaries, to see with. Just... be prepared for even more self-care afterwards.
I sincerely never thought I'd see Fisher on HN. His work is fantastic, tying together politics, pop culture, and philosophy into a cogent reading of our times. I would recommend reading Capitalist Realism over Ghosts of My Life if you're looking to get a sense of his ideas, or, at least I found the latter to be a harder read to get into. Both are good.
Younger folks have more and more trouble imagining a better world. It's crippling.
My favorite of his works is The Weird and the Eerie. Capitalist Realism is good/important for making some of Gramsci's ideas more accessible to a contemporary and non-academic audience, but it's not as original.
What fisher and I suppose GP is saying that a future radically different from our own. Especially one that is not inherently just window dressed capitalism. In zizeks words "it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism"
Without context these sound like hollow leftie catchphrases but especially Mark Fisher managed to show in many ways how this manifests in capitalist realism
Escaping the bitter long path dependency we're on- not just trying to rectify some wrongs, but to really make better goes, make some changes to really try over, try better- it's so hard.
I really want to see a more progressive activitism take off, see some shared hope for much wider, much better. Rather than just tangling with iniquities, trying to vault to a higher level.
They almost certainly envision a world similar to now but with the glaring problems fixed. Mark Fisher is writing about the inability to imagine and begin to create entirely new futures (for examples look to the utopianism of early 20th century futurism).
> The Vampires’ Castle specialises in propagating guilt. It is driven by a priest’s desire to excommunicate and condemn, an academic-pedant’s desire to be the first to be seen to spot a mistake, and a hipster’s desire to be one of the in-crowd. The danger in attacking the Vampires’ Castle is that it can look as if – and it will do everything it can to reinforce this thought – that one is also attacking the struggles against racism, sexism, heterosexism. But, far from being the only legitimate expression of such struggles, the Vampires’ Castle is best understood as a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements. The Vampires’ Castle was born the moment when the struggle not to be defined by identitarian categories became the quest to have ‘identities’ recognised by a bourgeois big Other.
Why should we be interested in an anti-woke perspective from the left, when it's just repeating what the right has been pointing out for a long time now? The basic point that "woke" ideology makes a mockery of genuine efforts to effectively address issues of prejudice based on race, sex or sexual orientation is far from new; indeed it has been raised many times before.
> Why should we be interested in an anti-woke perspective from the left, when it's just repeating what the right has been pointing out for a long time now?
The obvious reason is ad-hominem thinking is very human and natural, and people will be more receptive to the same message sent by someone otherwise aligned with them than someone otherwise opposed to them.
Another possibility is that this article just plain expresses it better, more effectively, or captured an important nuance that your preferred people missed.
But the right has always been working to address prejudiced attitudes; their disagreement with the left on these issues is one of framing and preferred methods (e.g. not everything has to be a "struggle against X!" - and such rhetoric is in many ways a pointless distraction from more relevant dynamics), not so much broader social aims.
> Are conservatives not by definition trying to conserve the status quo?
IIRC, in the American context there are very, very few conservatives like that. Everyone has some revolutionary project they're working towards, they're just very different and incompatible.
You might be right. The few people that do try to align with that tend to call themselves "reactionaries", or even "neo-reactionaries". Their broad ideological stance makes for an interesting Western counterpart to Neo-Confucianism on the Chinese internet.
> You might be right. The few people that do try to align with that tend to call themselves "reactionaries", or even "neo-reactionaries".
I disagree. The "neo-reactionaries" I'm familiar seems ridiculously, over-the-top radical. It's like libartarianism taken so far it had an integer overflow and wrapped around to monarchism.
It's not conservative to want to blow up society an replace it with a mockery of an old one that rejects what everyone across the political spectrum actually believes now.
Part of the problem with the distinction is what's being conserved and how different groups in the movement define this.
From one perspective, A lot of rank-and-file "conservatives" are probably more likely to take the social conservative stances in earnest, while being open to progressive economic policy, while the majority of their leadership absolutely prioritizes economic conservatism over the social element. The leadership merely uses the social aspects as a carrot to motivate what voting-base they can get, co-opting social conservative leadership into their own ranks, while obscuring the United States Chamber of Commerce lobby agenda. Rank-and-file conservatives are given reinforcement by their leadership to disapprove of progressive economic policy aesthetically, but are not ultimately able to fully overcome the pull of some of the material benefits that could be politically had without wrapping specific progressive political agenda into one big package with cultural divisions.
And that's not to deny that their aren't small business/contract work types that are both socially conservative and economically conservative through-and-through, but they aren't numerous enough to fill out the vast voting ranks need.
You could probably make the case that the Democratic Party are the real economic conservatives in a sense; Wanting to maintain the 30 or 40 year globalizing economic status quo, whereas "conservatives" that identify with the Republican party want to roll back to an idealized past, with a more nationally focused, but still liberal economy.
Then there is also the problem of popular US politics and their terms being too narrowly scoped when considering political movements from a fuller perspective. "Conservatives" call Democrats leftist as a pejorative, when neither Democrats or most self-identifying leftist would really consider the Democratic party far from center on economics, and probably conservative from a global perspective.
I imagine in this context conservative refers to members of the conservative political class and not conservative-voting citizens, who are mostly irrelevant to the goals of the conservative political class.
It is very important, in some contexts, to distinguish between Republican voters and Republican politicians. What you hear if you talk to the former can be wildly different from what the latter deliver and even what they make planks of their party platform.
Notably, the voters tend not to like neoliberalism and globalization and to be big fans of "why don't they just..." solutions for various problems—say, "why don't they just build a wall at the border?" Sound like any recent, prominent R politicians? Yep—he seems to have noticed the large gap between the Republican Party platform and what the average Republican voter you talk to at a diner says they want, then exploited that gap, which worked because the gap is very real and pretty large.
This occasionally got a bit weird, like in some of his speeches about how he'd provide "beautiful" healthcare to everyone, which seemed strangely close to some kind of (very vague) messaging about adding a public option of some kind of universal coverage and was met with cheering by his audience. This is because left- and right-wing populism in the US share a surprising amount in common, but those issues and commonalities are often ignored or deliberately sidelined by party elites. This is related to how laws that get passed and policies that are enacted are disturbingly disconnected from public sentiment generally.
(none of this should be taken as an endorsement of the former president, I'm just observing the lay of the electoral landscape and how he exploited that. I am also not claiming that a similar difference between typical voters and party leaders/platform doesn't exist for the Democrats—it absolutely does. This is all probably a result of our really shitty FPTP elections.)
You could argue that progressive mechanisms like affirmative action are just the same in reverse, and it's true that progressive politics in the US still has a conservative tinge.
But there are differences. AA is seen as a temporary rebalancing measure, while conservative privilege is seen as the natural and divinely ordained order of things, for all eternity.
It's essentially personal monarchy, as against anti-conservatism which is more layered and complex.
> But the right has always been working to address prejudiced attitudes
Do you really think this is how anyone on the left views the situation?! Folks on the left watch all the right-wing efforts to block LGBT rights, oppose Black Lives Matter, ban a religious minority from entering the country and conclude, "yep I disagree with those guys on issues, but it is true they're the ones working to fight prejudiced attitudes"?
Imagine you are playing a soccer match and there's an unfair referee who gives the other team 30 undeserved goals. You protest and, at the half, they replace the referee with a genuinely fair referee. Is asking for further remedy to make up for those 30 undeserved goals the other team received 'prejudiced?'
Player A joins the match for the other team after the half, but does not have the opportunity to make a goal that puts his team in the lead because the team's score has been adjusted from the unfair treatment. Has Player A been unfairly discriminated against?
Should your team just be happy they are now in a fair meritocracy and just get on with making goals instead of whining?
Yes, the one thing you can count on the Real World is for it to be simple and measurable... But let's keep the soccer metaphor.
Player A's game is long ended. They won't even play again. But it's a long championship and they are winning. Now your team is on the last round and will tie with them on points if you win, but will lose on the goal-count tie-breaker. Should the referee grant you 30 goals on your game with an entirely different adversary?
And your adversary is on the same situation, they will also tie with A's points if they win. Now what should the referee do?
The point of the original metaphor isn’t about disadvantage being simple and measurable, it’s simply about it existing and worthy of attention.
A solution here is largely academic, and not readily reached due to massive amounts of missing information.
However if the question is simply, is it fair for someone to lose first place because the second place categorization was biased? Sure, it definitely can be.
> Why should we be interested in an anti-woke perspective from the left, when it's just repeating what the right has been pointing out for a long time now?
Critical use of the term “woke” originated within the Left before the critique was superficially adopted by the Right and then the term was stripped of all meaning and used as a generic term for everything non-Right by the Right; much the same as happened with “political correctness”, which it became a drop-in replacement for on the Right, before it.
Because calling something 'woke' is often a lazy cudgel used to dismiss any progressive idea one disagrees with. If someone agrees with the fundamentals but has an issue with the socialization of those fundamentals then it's less likely to be tainted by bias.
One example would be people who are elevating Zelenskyy to superhero status. It's quite likely that Zelenskyy is a flawed person, like the overwhelming majority of us, and making weird lionizing memes of him echoes the same shirtless horse-riding personality cult stuff that preceded Putin's actions.
Yet, however overblown the worship or however ineffective 'thoughts & prayers' may be for Ukraine, there's an actual population of people being invaded by another country for reasons most people find entirely objectionable. This stands regardless of whether or not someone is suggesting we boycott the YMCA for not putting a Ukranian flag emote in their twitter profile.
>Why should we be interested in an anti-woke perspective from the left, when it's just repeating what the right has been pointing out for a long time now?
Because two groups can agree on the problem but disagree on the solution. For the left, the solution to the "woke" problem is de-centering identity in order to further the cause of anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-homophobia, etc; for the right, the solution to the "woke" problem is to deny that any of the problems raised by the "woke" are problems at all -- and in fact to center identity.
My understanding is that "woke" started as shorthand for criticism from POCs towards their nominal white allies (progressives, Democrats, etc). "I know you're trying to help. Please stop."
One recurring affront, of allies doing more harm than good, that I've observed many times is "white knighting" (correct term?).
A white person will argue in defense of a black position (or cause). While there's black people present, trying to be heard.
The correct action would be for a white person to concede their time to a black person. So that we can hear first-hand their input about policies and decisions impacting them. "I don't know. Let's ask a black person what they think."
My criticism of wokeness, as a middle class white blue hair, is that maybe haranguing people is not the most effective strategy. Just like how fat shaming back fires.
Personal example. I have a friend whose compulsion is to correct my misgendering of others, while I'm talking. Each and every time. Are they really listening to me? Or are they just waiting for me to fuck up and pounce, demonstrating their greater virtue? It's exhausting.
Sure, I want to get the genders correct, and certainly don't want to inadvertently offend any one, especially not punch down. But decades of habit don't change over night. And how the fuck am I supposed to know when someone's picked a new pronoun for themselves? Is there a gender registry some where I can reference in real-time?
I can't comment specifically on the reactionaries' criticism of wokeness. I assume whatever they're fluffed up about is just part of another grift.
> a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements
Sounds like a deflection, and inaccurate. The issues don't arise "outside" of the movement, they spring inevitably when there is enough traction and zeal because the mob doesn't understand nuance. Mobs are dogmatic and orthodox, and everything is a nail. The Fabians (a bougie socialist club intent on popularizing Socialism) had this fear about laymen should Socialism be in vogue, the Catholic Church about the Bible being interpreted by the public, etc. - they were all correct. Media of course is in it for the money, they just do what they've always done which is exploit salience.
To the extent that media exploits things, you could easily frame that as a perversion, but I guess this isn't about that. The fact that platforms like Twitter are optimized to maximize controversy exacerbates things, which is kind of perverse. Ultimately people do the legwork. I think ascribing bad behavior like witch hunts to "the bourgeoisie" is a weaselly, weak argument.
How something is said is at least as important as the intention. Isn't that tone policing core to the hn ethos?
Dressing up thoughts in symbols may seem like a marketability approach, or maybe an attack vector in the best traditions of fiction (the best sci-fi is, after all, merely a glass darkly by which to critique contemporary social ills), yet as Blair reminds us:
>"In prose, the worst thing one can do with words is surrender to them. When you think of a concrete object, you think wordlessly, and then, if you want to describe the thing you have been visualizing you probably hunt about until you find the exact words that seem to fit it. When you think of something abstract you are more inclined to use words from the start, and unless you make a conscious effort to prevent it, the existing dialect will come rushing in and do the job for you, at the expense of blurring or even changing your meaning. Probably it is better to put off using words as long as possible and get one's meaning as clear as one can through pictures and sensations."
So, jumping on pop-culture loaded symbols & jargon is a quick way to hijack sentiment or thought along well-dug rut of loaded connotation. Entirely valid critique.
when the right speaks on this, they use their own jargon, but just pretend it isn't jargon.
one of the things the left is good at is being willing to admit to ideology. it is okay to have reasons, intentions, and motivations. pretending one does not, pretending ideological choices are innate and universal, and pretending one can avoid specificity when speaking are failures.
Except that the left does not admit to ideology all that much. The more ideological leftists all like to think that they're "based and redpilled" and telling it like it is, even though nothing could be farther from the truth. By contrast, people on the "right" tend to be more aware that their latest "redpill" is just another meme and it's all for the lulz anyway.
The left may present itself more seriously, but why shouldn’t the humor be considered a mere veil for the underlying belief? It’s one thing to meme about the vulnerability of the impoverished, and another to state clearly that one holds the ideological position that they deserve their poverty.
I like Fisher's theoretical stuff a lot but I never was a fan of that piece, because it reeks of personal animosity towards newer generations on the left. It's very typical with old left Brits who couldn't get over the fact that class struggle isn't going to bring anyone into the streets any more, it's the kind of piece that is ten times more likely to be quoted on a conservative site than anywhere else.
And when one looks at British Labour politics in the years after this piece was written Fisher kind of got his wish, and it was an absolute electoral dead end.
These days, anti-COVID protest is what brings people to the streets. A few years back, it was all about wearing yellow vests and protesting gas tax hikes that harm small business.
> I like Fisher's theoretical stuff a lot but I never was a fan of that piece, because it reeks of personal animosity towards newer generations on the left.
That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects.
This is always said, but it is never true.
The olds die, and the youngs become the old.
As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
>> That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects.
> This is always said, but it is never true. The olds die, and the youngs become the old.
> As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
Yeah, but just because some "it" is current doesn't mean it's better. It's quite possible the hip new thing is just the youngs wondering off on a detour and getting lost.
Substantive criticism would be interesting, but you're not really saying anything about what he's saying. You're dismissing it based on who you think is likely to quote it today.
"Class struggle isn't going to bring anyone into the streets any more" and pointing out the absolute moribund labor party under Corbyn seems to me to be substantive criticism.
I also strain to find really substantive criticism in Fisher's original piece. "Russell Brand as popular left vanguard" has not really aged well, he's done the standard turn from proto-dirtbag-left to exactly the kind of media-talking-head-dumbass the leftists Fisher decries predicted he would.
I am broadly (but weakly) class-first in my leftism, but the kind of purity Fisher is demanding is bad tactics, but also counter-materialist. Race exists orthogonally to class but still has material implications - which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory. For a good analysis of this, see Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life by Barbara and Karen Fields. Conversely, "the means of production" is not what it used to be - capital operates correlated but not identical to control over information vectors, and owners of those vectors exercise great power over people who can control their own production but not the distribution of it; see McKenzie Wark's Capital is Dead: Is This Something Worse?
The left is traditionally focused on class because Marxism, via materialism, made strong arguments this was the lynchpin of inequity. But if you run that same materialist analysis today, the evidence for class's primary, let alone a sui generis status, is the weakest it has ever been.
> which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory.
You'd be surprised. While basic prejudice of course exists, much commonplace "profiling" is simply driven by statistical signals that happen to correlate with various sorts of bad behavior. Socially aware minorities who wish to actively mitigate this part of the problem (which is otherwise the hardest to address, for fairly obvious reasons) might want to start dressing up with suit and tie when out in public, and driving cars that are nicely-maintained but not too "blingy".
Of course, this goes to show the extent to which police profiling is in fact about broader notions of class and subculture, and not limited to race.
You can stop writing after this, you've already agreed with me that class is not the sole driver of material inequality.
"Subculture" is also rooted in an ideology not centering class, and as you've used it (and as you ridiculously asserted elsewhere in the comments "the right has always been working to address prejudiced attitudes"), I suspect here it's a dogwhistle.
> you've already agreed with me that class is not the sole driver of material inequality.
Of course, I could not agree more about that. My point is simply that a class-aware analysis might have plenty to say even about things that are often reduced to matters of "race".
> "Subculture" is also rooted in an ideology not centering class
Subculture in practice is highly correlated with class. In fact you might even call it a dogwhistle for class itself; though this discounts the extent to which "low-class subculture" may in fact be a fixable problem, in a way that would not increase alienation or marginalization for low-class folks and may well mitigate these things, while driving a renewed "working class cohesion" and perhaps "class conciousness" that should be compelling from even an orthodox Marxist point of view.
> You can stop writing after this, you've already agreed with me that class is not the sole driver of material inequality.
It seems like a category mistake to talk about class as "driver" of inequality.
Class is a _type_ of material inequality. So it can't "drive" material inequality. Right? What could that even mean?
Maybe this is taking "class" to mean something like birth class, like inheritance, or parental status... which then it actually does make sense... but that's not what the word means at all in Marxist terminology. It's not what leftists are saying at all.
Class in Marxist terminology is defined by the prevailing relations of production, either social or technical. So, saying that inequality is driven by "class" is but another way of saying that economic fundamentals (such as, according to Marxists, the ongoing concentration and centralisation of capital, or the tendency of the rate of profit to fall; non-Marxists may of course point to other dynamics as more relevant!) are driving inequality. It's not clear what would be inconsistent about this.
Sure it wouldn't be "inconsistent" to say "the tendency of the rate of profit to fall" is "driving inequality" but I don't think that's actually what anyone is saying here.
When Fisher etc. say we must return a focus on class on the left, he means not the Marxist abstract idea of class as groups with aligned economic interests, but the specific classes Marx outlined as relevant under capitalist productive forces. Otherwise he owes us an argument as to why e.g. "black" is not a class despite its massive and identifiable role in America's economic and labor history!
Personally I am more agnostic about Marx's specific conclusions today; but if Fisher wants to call certain classes "class" but others "identitarian" I'll take his terms. But then I get to say "class is a driver of inequality" because it absolutely makes sense to say "Labor's subservience to capital is a driver of material inequality" even as it is also one type of material inequality. (Unless you think it stands so far apart from other kinds of inequality it cannot influence them at all - absolute bullshit.)
As I mentioned above, please also read Wark, where she covers in detail why she thinks Marx's analysis of extant classes is insufficient for today even as it purely pertains to labor relations.
>When Fisher etc. say we must return a focus on class on the left, he means not the Marxist abstract idea of class as groups with aligned economic interests, but the specific classes Marx outlined as relevant under capitalist productive forces.
Right. And to be concrete, it means people who control the distribution of wages, vs. people who are dependent on wages. A focus on class is a focus on the relationship between wage-workers and shareholders.
> it absolutely makes sense to say "Labor's subservience to capital is a driver of material inequality"
Well, I don't get it. Labor/capital is one form that subservience takes. It is a form of material inequality. I don't see how you can say that the subservience can "drive" the inequality.
"Subservience" is not a very specific term here btw, it's basically metaphorical... an individual laborer is literally subservient to their specific employer, but "labor" is not literally subservient to "capital." More specific concrete language would be much appreciated.
Let’s just say “signals that people believe correlate with various sorts of bad behavior,” which consistently happen to be identified with out-groups.
Having said that, the counter-examples to even that are legion: the professor who’s detained opening the door to his own house, the birdwatcher who gets the cops called on him, the college student shot while lost in the suburbs, the executive who’s pulled over all the time when turning into his neighborhood. (I’ll add to that a friend who was an NFL player whose frequent and threatening run-ins with the cops while playing in Georgia weren’t caused by sartorial or automotive lapses, but his white fiancé.)
These counterexamples are popular precisely because they show instances of unambiguous race-based prejudice, as opposed to lazy generalization from easily observable signals. If this really was a major part of profiling as a whole, we wouldn't even need to point to these anecdata because it would be obvious. Black people who might actively identify as middle- or upper-class and be informed by these social norms are regrettably uncommon, but surely not that uncommon!
What kind of large-scale evidence would convince you? The numbers seem quite clear to me. Cops arrest rich black boys as much as they do working-class white boys; punishments are harsher; the disparity increases as income drops.
In aggregate, the accumulative benefits of capital are denied them; black wealth crosses generations at a fraction of the rate white wealth does. In this sense it is hard to make a case for any black American being a member of the true capitalist class.
This is a relevant fact that seems like it may be amenable to intervention.
> black wealth crosses generations at a fraction of the rate white wealth does
Note that the factors that drive wealth preservation are also what drives wealth accumulation in the first place. When you've always been living in a more-or-less chaotic environment and almost no one around you is intimately familiar with a feasible alternative, it becomes really, really hard not to eat your marshmallow (or, to use a different image, your "seed corn"). This has nothing to do with race per se of course, but plenty with material conditions, even in a Marxian/Marxist sense.
> which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory
Certainly a meme I've heard a million times. I think Obama even said it while he was still president.
But so what? I don't see what it's supposed to imply.
You've got a black guy living in poverty working two part time jobs no benefits, obeying one abusive authoritarian after another over his whole life.
Maybe that guy really does feel more solidarity with a black factory owner whose life does not resemble his in any way. But why is this?
It's not because that any black people are actually more affected by "profiling" than by their class situation. It's because they're economically conservative in the "embarrassed millionaire" sense -- more likely to view the robber baron as a figure of aspirational emulation than an exploiter. These types of people (they're the majority of every race of course) aren't leftists turned off by class politics, they're just on the opposite side: they're the economic right-wing. They're quite simply on the side of the owning class, even though they're not owners.
> if you run that same materialist analysis today, the evidence for class's primary, let alone a sui generis status, is the weakest it has ever been.
Huh?? People's day to day lives are still regulated by wages. Children's upbringings are defined by the competition to conform to requirements of the wage-paying institutions. How can class not be primary? Black or white, the odds have to be 90%+ that the last "or else" order you obeyed was delivered under a wage-based threat.
> It's not because that any black people are actually more affected by "profiling" than by their class situation.
It's impossible to look at racial disparities in sentencing, qualitatively or quantitatively, and think this. The research is clear: The absolute richest black people get accused and sentenced like working-class white people. Working-class black people get treated like sub-humans.
> They're quite simply on the side of the owning class, even though they're not owners.
The most successful revolutionary leftist movements in the modern west are those taking up racial issues, from SNCC and the Black Panthers onwards.
> Black or white, the odds have to be 90%+ that the last "or else" order you obeyed was delivered under a wage-based threat.
The intensity of "else" in an "or else" order matters. Worrying about "the most recent one" is pure sampling bias. That's exactly the problem; the median worst case for working-class white leftists is losing their job. For others, regularly, it's their life.
I beg you, read some books by black, female, and queer leftists. They have good ideas.
> The intensity of "else" in an "or else" order matters. Worrying about "the most recent one" is pure sampling bias.
It was a figure of speech, not any kind of "sampling" at all. I don't consider you to have addressed my point.
>That's exactly the problem; the median worst case for working-class white leftists is losing their job. For others, regularly, it's their life.
WTF is a "median worst case"?
You can certainly say: death rates for blacks are higher than whites. But the death rates in the USA are fairly low for any race; while the rates of having your entire life structured around class-imposed labor obligations are practically 100%! For every race!
This infers that young left is a unified in its belief on this, which is demonstrably untrue. The popularity of alt left podcasts from recent years (chapo, red scare, etc) is an expression of this disunity. Major sections of young left are alienated on the lib/woke sidelining of class. The old Brit disconnected left has resonance but also hand waves away the new divisions.
For an even less woke perspective, I would recommend the memeing of mark fisher, a review of mark fisher memes from 2020 http://thememeingofmarkfisher.com/
This fails to explain a very easy-to-observe conundrum in the US:
Religious and other highly-conservative groups on the right practice exactly the same sort of shame, shunning, reactivity, and condemnation behaviors. They've practiced them longer than "woke" has been a thing[0].
Yet they get to rail about these things in the press without being told to take the log out of their own eye by either their own members or the supposedly-hostile press. The public lets the right set the agenda on "PC" or "woke" discussions instead of simply rolling their eyes and being like "how can the group that is trying to cancel people for not being obsequious enough to Trump say shit like this?"
It clearly isn't a communication style thing alone that results in people disliking it, or results in it being ineffective with some people. People who identify any complaint about any white person's behavior w.r.t. race as a personal attack on them don't care about the framing, they care about the message. "We fixed racism in the 60s, stop trying to be reverse racist" and stuff like that.
Fisher is the best. See also his classic essay on the toxicity of (what passes for) left-wing social media culture, “Exiting the Vampire Castle.” I host a mirror:
I'm sorry, but 2013 is not 'ahead of the curve' - the problems with what was later called "woke" ideology were obvious to those who were paying attention, already in the late 2000s when that ideological memeplex first spread online via the likes of Tumblr. Still, better late than never I guess.
> I'm sorry, but 2013 is not 'ahead of the curve' - the problems with what was later called "woke" ideology were obvious to those who were paying attention, already in the late 2000s when that ideological memeplex first spread online via the likes of Tumblr. Still, better late than never I guess.
Talking about it when it was still "very online" is being ahead of the curve. You don't have to be one of the first to be ahead.
The seriousness of the problem didn't hit me until more like 2014–15. I've had a lot of conversations about this with like-minded friends, wondering what went wrong, and when it got really bad.
One of the factors that I've come to focus on, in retrospect, is smartphone penetration—which crossed 50% in the US in 2012.[0] The wide currency of social media apps did a lot to allow the metastasis of the "libidinal-discursive configurations" that Fisher identifies.
Tumblr culture was an earlier harbinger, but I don't see how we can compare it to what subsequently developed on progressive-left Twitter.
Fancying myself somewhat of an archivist of such matters, I believe the timeline of the Culture War must include 'mansplaining' (LiveJournal, 2008), Dickwolves (Penny Arcade, 2010), and Gamergate (originally WordPress, 2014). Each of these events brought feminist writers / bloggers into explosive contact with the meme-engines of the web, giving terms and concepts such as 'mansplaining', 'rape culture', and 'toxic masculinity' wide and rapid dissemination.
Your examples are excellent. To a "normal person", some of them seem so unimportant. And yet.
I would be fascinated by a real history of this stuff. It'd be almost impossible to find someone who could do it honestly, though.
Having lived through it, I remember op-ed pieces, which I can no longer find, that I clearly remember as events that shaped the way people around me thought and talked.
For just one example, I clearly remember reading an op-ed calling for the word "gross" to be used against those who stood in the way of feminist aims. The idea was that physical disgust was a "conservative" emotion thay could be repurposed -- and that women's role as arbiters of sexual attractiveness could be useful here. Now today I still occasionally hear the word "gross" used in this way. It's almost a shibboleth. If only I could find that op-ed!
Here's another empirical example (US chosen as it leads Europe in these things):
We can see the exponential plain as day. What I want to know is: What was the spark, the seed, the detonator?
The problem is, it's fundamentally, mathematically, difficult to run diffusion backwards, let alone an explosion, let alone viral reproduction. "Was it the lab or the wet market?" Lyapunov exponents get in the way of telling. And self-interest. And actual -- yes, though I hate the word -- gaslighting by the actors themselves.
But the history hasn't quite been erased yet. I think a dedicated person could piece a lot of it back together.
> For just one example, I clearly remember reading an op-ed calling for the word "gross" to be used against those who stood in the way of feminist aims. The idea was that physical disgust was a "conservative" emotion thay could be repurposed
It's interesting that this kind of smart culture jamming is also now mostly coming from the conservative side of the aisle. Trump has been very shrewd in using liberals' emotional stances to "own" them, discredit his would-be opponents and effectively push his own policy proposals. (Such as repeatedly describing other countries as acting "unfairly" towards the U.S. - a pretty clear dogwhistle targeted at the liberal emotion of "fairness"!)
I remember reading that, back in the day. I wonder what Fisher would think of Russell Brand these days. That dude has really gone off the deep end, it's sad.
Also in all these critiques of wokeness, the conversation always seems to involve Twitter. Maybe Twitter, the realm of hot-takes and snappy one-liners, just isn't a place where people should spend their time?
There was Tumblr before it (and LiveJournal before that), and TikTok after it. Twitter, however, seems to be better suited in its fundamental design for war ala call-outs and brigading.
The struggle to maintain a grounded perspective, through the Trump era, through the pandemic, has been too much for most people. I still think Brand's heart is in the right place… probably. Fisher stayed true to the end, but I have to wonder if that's only because he took his life in January 2017. It's hard to think of social/political commentators who haven't succumbed, to some extent, to the brain-melting effects of the last several years. (Maybe Žižek? He's no more or less heterodox today than he was a decade ago.)
Fisher really clarified for me what I’ve always sensed in the back of my mind. That time has in a sense stopped. I was always into futuristic things as a kid, and I still am. But today I’m left with a feeling that “the future”, or how we imagined the future, was more futuristic back then than it is now.
As someone working in the tech industry, I’m eager to work on something exciting and futuristic. But what I find is that any project is constrained by the logic of neoliberal capitalism. Social media sites have to be designed to be addictive and pull people’s attentions away from real family and friends, otherwise you can’t earn profit and compete. The future doesn’t excite us anymore because all technology has given us is a boring, robotic, and atomized life.
> Fisher really clarified for me what I’ve always sensed in the back of my mind. That time has in a sense stopped. I was always into futuristic things as a kid, and I still am. But today I’m left with a feeling that “the future”, or how we imagined the future, was more futuristic back then than it is now
Yeah, that's the general take of End Of History, that the zeitgeist of what's to come has collapsed onto mere different hues of Liberalism in all its expressions, but we will see, specially with Trumpism might be showing its head again globally soon enough, but ofc it ought be noted that Trumpism, is itself yet another branch of liberalism
Somewhere, Mark Fisher wrote, "Nobody is bored, everything is boring."
I think he meant people are always busy fiddling with their phones or whatever, but the content they are consuming and producing is uniform and absent any surprises.
It's good to see the occasional Mark Fisher thread here. On the topic of Hauntology and lost futures, I think this guy does a great job of explaining it through the analogy of the Fallout videogame series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvUqhZcbVg
Analogies through pop-culture is something Mark Fisher also did very well to get his point across, and appeal to a broader audience.
After reading a little bit of his work, I couldn't really make my mind up about Fisher. Some passages feel pretty clear headed a satisfying to read.
“There are certainly conspiracies in capitalism, but the problem is that they are themselves only possible because of deeper level structures that allow them to function. Does anyone really think, for instance, that things would improve if we replaced the whole managerial and banking class with a whole new set of ('better') people? Surely, on the contrary, it is evident that the vices are engendered by the structure, and that while the structure remains, the vices will reproduce themselves.”
But then at other times, he seems fall into the same traps that makes me hate a lot of postmodern(or whatever this is) writing.
-Constant references to other writers, only to use their polysyllabic neologisms 2-3 times without any explanation. I wouldn't mind this so much but this book usually sold as a good starting point.
-Defining things with grandiose, nearly contradictory analogies.
-A deep pessimism, sometimes I feel I'm reading some kind of anti-Pangloss.
"This makes
capitalism very much like the Thing in John Carpenter's film of
the same name: a monstrous, infinitely plastic entity, capable of
metabolizing and absorbing anything with which it comes into
contact. Capital, Deleuze and Guattari says, is a 'motley painting
of everything that ever was'; a strange hybrid of the ultra-modern
and the archaic. In the years since Deleuze and Guattari wrote the
two volumes of their Capitalism And Schizophrenia, it has seemed
as if the deterritorializing impulses of capitalism have been
confined to finance, leaving culture presided over by the forces of
reterritorialization."
It makes me frustrated, because I feel like Fisher really does have a lot of interesting things to say. But the only time I can bring myself to hate the state of world this much is if I spend too much time on twitter or in mandatory HR trainings.
In 2009, Fisher published “Capitalist Realism,” a slim, powerful book about “the widespread acceptance that there is no alternative to capitalism.”
That was useful, although 2009 was a bit late to notice.
I've made the point for years that a big problem with capitalism is that it has become a monopoly ideology. When communism was taken seriously, capitalism had to deliver better results. That period ended some time in the 1980s, when even communists stopped taking communism seriously. A decade later, running on empty ideology, the Soviet Union collapsed, not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Back when communism looked like a serious alternative, there was more self-restraint by capitalists, out of fear that voters would vote in more controls over business. Once communism ran down, we got a system where "greed is good, greed works" was taken seriously as an organizing principle. Now, that's barely questioned. It is no longer seen as an obligation of society to provide a good standard of living. That's just viewed as a trickle-down side effect of markets. This is a big problem.
Useful propaganda films for capitalism vs. communism, to show how far back this goes:
- "Meet King Joe" (1949) [1] "Joe is the king because he can buy more with his wages than any other worker on the globe"
- Challenge of Ideas (1961) [2] Capitalism vs communism, a propaganda film with all the big names - John Wayne, Edward R. Murrow, and others. "Man is a responsible being" - John Wayne.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 158 ms ] threadNow I want to read the book, although I still don't understand what's it's perspective is.
The main idea of fisher is how we seem to have lost the ability to envision futures that are not basically less evil versions of capitalism. Which manifests in depression and odd melancholy of futures of the past.
The concept of Hauntologies was first introduced by Jacues Derrida[0]. I think it goes hand-in-hand deconstruction.
As an aside, poolside.fm, in addition to being a cool project, also imitates a past that never was[1].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Derrida [1] https://poolsuite.net/
> Why did you decide to submit it again now?
I actually just launched a project that is attempting to "solve" the issue of contemporary society having no positive visions of the future:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30781126
So I've been researching some different thinkers, like Fisher, that have talked about this idea.
Very much so. It even looks like a 90s movie OS (e.g. like the mash-ups on the computers in Office Space, familiar but from nowhere).
I'm a bit sad that I recycled my (freeby, thank you reuse@mit.edu) SGI Indy when I moved from my first to my second apartment after college. "An Indy is and Indigo without the go.", but it was a really beautiful computer case, and a 64-bit MIPS CPU would still be fun to play around with.
Did anyone else remember using twm window manager with Java Swing apps in the early 2000s? Most window managers would ignore nonsense commands to resize windows down to 0x0 pixels, but twm would oblige. I ran twm with 1 px borders and no window menus (to maximize screen real estate), so I needed to watch the redraw carefully to get a good idea at my starting point for a game of "hunt the pixel" to find the 2x2 pixel border and drag the window back to my desired size. I played "hunt the pixel" much more often than actual games.
Ideally, ThrowbackFriday would be configurable where you'd give it a year range to emulate.
This is not shade on you. I myself love all kinds of vaporwave, probably to a fault. I think this is part of why The Weird and the Eerie was tough to read for me- you can tell Mark was exasperated about things that should not be juxtaposed. And I can’t help but think these “un-pasts” were probably an obstacle to improving the present.
This is probably one of the few advertising types I actually accept: reviews.
Capitalist Realism is a must-read: https://files.libcom.org/files/%5BMark_Fisher%5D_Capitalist_...
“There are certainly conspiracies in capitalism, but the problem is that they are themselves only possible because of deeper level structures that allow them to function. Does anyone really think, for instance, that things would improve if we replaced the whole managerial and banking class with a whole new set of ('better') people? Surely, on the contrary, it is evident that the vices are engendered by the structure, and that while the structure remains, the vices will reproduce themselves.”
“The delusion that many who enter into management with high hopes is precisely that they, the individual, can change things, that they will not repeat what their managers had done, that things will be different this time; but watch someone step up to management and it’s usually not long before the grey petrification of power starts to subsume them. It is here that the structure is palpable — you can practically see it taking people over, hear its deadened/deadening judgments speaking through them.”
The fact that he admired Burial has certainly piqued my interest and Mark Fishers focus on futures never-to-be really aligns perfectly with my tendency to wallow in SehnSucht often brought on by Boards of Canada or paintings by Simon Stålenhag: https://www.simonstalenhag.se/
1. https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writing/interviews/burial_unedi...
2. https://archive.org/details/wire-304-caretaker
edit: with Kode9 too, https://mitpress.mit.edu/contributors/steve-goodman
One music artist that I've been enjoying listening to lately is Biosphere. Specifically the Substrata album; To me it feels like a foreboding journey of the present with longings of some past.
> "I think Burial is the genius of our time... The most important Burial song to listen to, which will tell you everything about him, is Come Down to Us... Why it's so incredible, because what Burial does is he takes what is essentially industrial noise - and songs - but fuses them together to create something that is epic and romantic, and sort of gives you a clue of the sort of thing that might be coming, culturally - which is a higher [?] system, I think. And I think he's there ahead of everyone. It's so emotional; yet, at the same time, just noise. And, I don't know, it's just, I can't - sorry, this is me being inarticulate - it's just... wonderful... It takes you into another world."
HyperNormalization & Can't Get You Out Of My Head are both amazing modern Curtis works. Going back & watching some of his older stuff like Bitter Lake has been as ever intense & powerful & stunning. Keeping a real eye on the world, really seeing it, is a talent Fisher & his writing showed off. Curtis gives us a wiser, more understandable interlace of the tapestry, through his documentaries, to see with. Just... be prepared for even more self-care afterwards.
[1] https://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/33496/1/... https://www.reddit.com/r/burial/comments/6dg2or/adam_buxton_...
Younger folks have more and more trouble imagining a better world. It's crippling.
This comes very close to:
>Fisher feared that we were losing our ability to conceptualize a tomorrow that was radically different from our present.
On the other hand, HN's 'What to Submit' [1]:
>anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Has hn become too much a thing that it has become its own information bubble?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Not the young folks I know. My 16 year old has a very strong vision of a better world, as do many of her friends
Without context these sound like hollow leftie catchphrases but especially Mark Fisher managed to show in many ways how this manifests in capitalist realism
I really want to see a more progressive activitism take off, see some shared hope for much wider, much better. Rather than just tangling with iniquities, trying to vault to a higher level.
> The Vampires’ Castle specialises in propagating guilt. It is driven by a priest’s desire to excommunicate and condemn, an academic-pedant’s desire to be the first to be seen to spot a mistake, and a hipster’s desire to be one of the in-crowd. The danger in attacking the Vampires’ Castle is that it can look as if – and it will do everything it can to reinforce this thought – that one is also attacking the struggles against racism, sexism, heterosexism. But, far from being the only legitimate expression of such struggles, the Vampires’ Castle is best understood as a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements. The Vampires’ Castle was born the moment when the struggle not to be defined by identitarian categories became the quest to have ‘identities’ recognised by a bourgeois big Other.
The obvious reason is ad-hominem thinking is very human and natural, and people will be more receptive to the same message sent by someone otherwise aligned with them than someone otherwise opposed to them.
Another possibility is that this article just plain expresses it better, more effectively, or captured an important nuance that your preferred people missed.
Are conservatives not by definition trying to conserve the status quo?
IIRC, in the American context there are very, very few conservatives like that. Everyone has some revolutionary project they're working towards, they're just very different and incompatible.
I disagree. The "neo-reactionaries" I'm familiar seems ridiculously, over-the-top radical. It's like libartarianism taken so far it had an integer overflow and wrapped around to monarchism.
It's not conservative to want to blow up society an replace it with a mockery of an old one that rejects what everyone across the political spectrum actually believes now.
From one perspective, A lot of rank-and-file "conservatives" are probably more likely to take the social conservative stances in earnest, while being open to progressive economic policy, while the majority of their leadership absolutely prioritizes economic conservatism over the social element. The leadership merely uses the social aspects as a carrot to motivate what voting-base they can get, co-opting social conservative leadership into their own ranks, while obscuring the United States Chamber of Commerce lobby agenda. Rank-and-file conservatives are given reinforcement by their leadership to disapprove of progressive economic policy aesthetically, but are not ultimately able to fully overcome the pull of some of the material benefits that could be politically had without wrapping specific progressive political agenda into one big package with cultural divisions.
And that's not to deny that their aren't small business/contract work types that are both socially conservative and economically conservative through-and-through, but they aren't numerous enough to fill out the vast voting ranks need.
You could probably make the case that the Democratic Party are the real economic conservatives in a sense; Wanting to maintain the 30 or 40 year globalizing economic status quo, whereas "conservatives" that identify with the Republican party want to roll back to an idealized past, with a more nationally focused, but still liberal economy.
Then there is also the problem of popular US politics and their terms being too narrowly scoped when considering political movements from a fuller perspective. "Conservatives" call Democrats leftist as a pejorative, when neither Democrats or most self-identifying leftist would really consider the Democratic party far from center on economics, and probably conservative from a global perspective.
Notably, the voters tend not to like neoliberalism and globalization and to be big fans of "why don't they just..." solutions for various problems—say, "why don't they just build a wall at the border?" Sound like any recent, prominent R politicians? Yep—he seems to have noticed the large gap between the Republican Party platform and what the average Republican voter you talk to at a diner says they want, then exploited that gap, which worked because the gap is very real and pretty large.
This occasionally got a bit weird, like in some of his speeches about how he'd provide "beautiful" healthcare to everyone, which seemed strangely close to some kind of (very vague) messaging about adding a public option of some kind of universal coverage and was met with cheering by his audience. This is because left- and right-wing populism in the US share a surprising amount in common, but those issues and commonalities are often ignored or deliberately sidelined by party elites. This is related to how laws that get passed and policies that are enacted are disturbingly disconnected from public sentiment generally.
(none of this should be taken as an endorsement of the former president, I'm just observing the lay of the electoral landscape and how he exploited that. I am also not claiming that a similar difference between typical voters and party leaders/platform doesn't exist for the Democrats—it absolutely does. This is all probably a result of our really shitty FPTP elections.)
https://kottke.org/21/02/conservatism-and-who-the-law-protec...
You could argue that progressive mechanisms like affirmative action are just the same in reverse, and it's true that progressive politics in the US still has a conservative tinge.
But there are differences. AA is seen as a temporary rebalancing measure, while conservative privilege is seen as the natural and divinely ordained order of things, for all eternity.
It's essentially personal monarchy, as against anti-conservatism which is more layered and complex.
Do you really think this is how anyone on the left views the situation?! Folks on the left watch all the right-wing efforts to block LGBT rights, oppose Black Lives Matter, ban a religious minority from entering the country and conclude, "yep I disagree with those guys on issues, but it is true they're the ones working to fight prejudiced attitudes"?
Player A joins the match for the other team after the half, but does not have the opportunity to make a goal that puts his team in the lead because the team's score has been adjusted from the unfair treatment. Has Player A been unfairly discriminated against?
Should your team just be happy they are now in a fair meritocracy and just get on with making goals instead of whining?
Player A's game is long ended. They won't even play again. But it's a long championship and they are winning. Now your team is on the last round and will tie with them on points if you win, but will lose on the goal-count tie-breaker. Should the referee grant you 30 goals on your game with an entirely different adversary?
And your adversary is on the same situation, they will also tie with A's points if they win. Now what should the referee do?
A solution here is largely academic, and not readily reached due to massive amounts of missing information.
However if the question is simply, is it fair for someone to lose first place because the second place categorization was biased? Sure, it definitely can be.
Critical use of the term “woke” originated within the Left before the critique was superficially adopted by the Right and then the term was stripped of all meaning and used as a generic term for everything non-Right by the Right; much the same as happened with “political correctness”, which it became a drop-in replacement for on the Right, before it.
One example would be people who are elevating Zelenskyy to superhero status. It's quite likely that Zelenskyy is a flawed person, like the overwhelming majority of us, and making weird lionizing memes of him echoes the same shirtless horse-riding personality cult stuff that preceded Putin's actions.
Yet, however overblown the worship or however ineffective 'thoughts & prayers' may be for Ukraine, there's an actual population of people being invaded by another country for reasons most people find entirely objectionable. This stands regardless of whether or not someone is suggesting we boycott the YMCA for not putting a Ukranian flag emote in their twitter profile.
Because two groups can agree on the problem but disagree on the solution. For the left, the solution to the "woke" problem is de-centering identity in order to further the cause of anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-homophobia, etc; for the right, the solution to the "woke" problem is to deny that any of the problems raised by the "woke" are problems at all -- and in fact to center identity.
My understanding is that "woke" started as shorthand for criticism from POCs towards their nominal white allies (progressives, Democrats, etc). "I know you're trying to help. Please stop."
One recurring affront, of allies doing more harm than good, that I've observed many times is "white knighting" (correct term?).
A white person will argue in defense of a black position (or cause). While there's black people present, trying to be heard.
The correct action would be for a white person to concede their time to a black person. So that we can hear first-hand their input about policies and decisions impacting them. "I don't know. Let's ask a black person what they think."
My criticism of wokeness, as a middle class white blue hair, is that maybe haranguing people is not the most effective strategy. Just like how fat shaming back fires.
Personal example. I have a friend whose compulsion is to correct my misgendering of others, while I'm talking. Each and every time. Are they really listening to me? Or are they just waiting for me to fuck up and pounce, demonstrating their greater virtue? It's exhausting.
Sure, I want to get the genders correct, and certainly don't want to inadvertently offend any one, especially not punch down. But decades of habit don't change over night. And how the fuck am I supposed to know when someone's picked a new pronoun for themselves? Is there a gender registry some where I can reference in real-time?
I can't comment specifically on the reactionaries' criticism of wokeness. I assume whatever they're fluffed up about is just part of another grift.
Sounds like a deflection, and inaccurate. The issues don't arise "outside" of the movement, they spring inevitably when there is enough traction and zeal because the mob doesn't understand nuance. Mobs are dogmatic and orthodox, and everything is a nail. The Fabians (a bougie socialist club intent on popularizing Socialism) had this fear about laymen should Socialism be in vogue, the Catholic Church about the Bible being interpreted by the public, etc. - they were all correct. Media of course is in it for the money, they just do what they've always done which is exploit salience.
Dressing up thoughts in symbols may seem like a marketability approach, or maybe an attack vector in the best traditions of fiction (the best sci-fi is, after all, merely a glass darkly by which to critique contemporary social ills), yet as Blair reminds us:
>"In prose, the worst thing one can do with words is surrender to them. When you think of a concrete object, you think wordlessly, and then, if you want to describe the thing you have been visualizing you probably hunt about until you find the exact words that seem to fit it. When you think of something abstract you are more inclined to use words from the start, and unless you make a conscious effort to prevent it, the existing dialect will come rushing in and do the job for you, at the expense of blurring or even changing your meaning. Probably it is better to put off using words as long as possible and get one's meaning as clear as one can through pictures and sensations."
So, jumping on pop-culture loaded symbols & jargon is a quick way to hijack sentiment or thought along well-dug rut of loaded connotation. Entirely valid critique.
one of the things the left is good at is being willing to admit to ideology. it is okay to have reasons, intentions, and motivations. pretending one does not, pretending ideological choices are innate and universal, and pretending one can avoid specificity when speaking are failures.
i just see them parrot 'narrative' over and over
And when one looks at British Labour politics in the years after this piece was written Fisher kind of got his wish, and it was an absolute electoral dead end.
That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects.
As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
> This is always said, but it is never true. The olds die, and the youngs become the old.
> As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
Yeah, but just because some "it" is current doesn't mean it's better. It's quite possible the hip new thing is just the youngs wondering off on a detour and getting lost.
I also strain to find really substantive criticism in Fisher's original piece. "Russell Brand as popular left vanguard" has not really aged well, he's done the standard turn from proto-dirtbag-left to exactly the kind of media-talking-head-dumbass the leftists Fisher decries predicted he would.
I am broadly (but weakly) class-first in my leftism, but the kind of purity Fisher is demanding is bad tactics, but also counter-materialist. Race exists orthogonally to class but still has material implications - which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory. For a good analysis of this, see Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life by Barbara and Karen Fields. Conversely, "the means of production" is not what it used to be - capital operates correlated but not identical to control over information vectors, and owners of those vectors exercise great power over people who can control their own production but not the distribution of it; see McKenzie Wark's Capital is Dead: Is This Something Worse?
The left is traditionally focused on class because Marxism, via materialism, made strong arguments this was the lynchpin of inequity. But if you run that same materialist analysis today, the evidence for class's primary, let alone a sui generis status, is the weakest it has ever been.
You'd be surprised. While basic prejudice of course exists, much commonplace "profiling" is simply driven by statistical signals that happen to correlate with various sorts of bad behavior. Socially aware minorities who wish to actively mitigate this part of the problem (which is otherwise the hardest to address, for fairly obvious reasons) might want to start dressing up with suit and tie when out in public, and driving cars that are nicely-maintained but not too "blingy".
Of course, this goes to show the extent to which police profiling is in fact about broader notions of class and subculture, and not limited to race.
You can stop writing after this, you've already agreed with me that class is not the sole driver of material inequality.
"Subculture" is also rooted in an ideology not centering class, and as you've used it (and as you ridiculously asserted elsewhere in the comments "the right has always been working to address prejudiced attitudes"), I suspect here it's a dogwhistle.
Of course, I could not agree more about that. My point is simply that a class-aware analysis might have plenty to say even about things that are often reduced to matters of "race".
> "Subculture" is also rooted in an ideology not centering class
Subculture in practice is highly correlated with class. In fact you might even call it a dogwhistle for class itself; though this discounts the extent to which "low-class subculture" may in fact be a fixable problem, in a way that would not increase alienation or marginalization for low-class folks and may well mitigate these things, while driving a renewed "working class cohesion" and perhaps "class conciousness" that should be compelling from even an orthodox Marxist point of view.
It seems like a category mistake to talk about class as "driver" of inequality.
Class is a _type_ of material inequality. So it can't "drive" material inequality. Right? What could that even mean?
Maybe this is taking "class" to mean something like birth class, like inheritance, or parental status... which then it actually does make sense... but that's not what the word means at all in Marxist terminology. It's not what leftists are saying at all.
Personally I am more agnostic about Marx's specific conclusions today; but if Fisher wants to call certain classes "class" but others "identitarian" I'll take his terms. But then I get to say "class is a driver of inequality" because it absolutely makes sense to say "Labor's subservience to capital is a driver of material inequality" even as it is also one type of material inequality. (Unless you think it stands so far apart from other kinds of inequality it cannot influence them at all - absolute bullshit.)
As I mentioned above, please also read Wark, where she covers in detail why she thinks Marx's analysis of extant classes is insufficient for today even as it purely pertains to labor relations.
Right. And to be concrete, it means people who control the distribution of wages, vs. people who are dependent on wages. A focus on class is a focus on the relationship between wage-workers and shareholders.
> it absolutely makes sense to say "Labor's subservience to capital is a driver of material inequality"
Well, I don't get it. Labor/capital is one form that subservience takes. It is a form of material inequality. I don't see how you can say that the subservience can "drive" the inequality.
"Subservience" is not a very specific term here btw, it's basically metaphorical... an individual laborer is literally subservient to their specific employer, but "labor" is not literally subservient to "capital." More specific concrete language would be much appreciated.
Having said that, the counter-examples to even that are legion: the professor who’s detained opening the door to his own house, the birdwatcher who gets the cops called on him, the college student shot while lost in the suburbs, the executive who’s pulled over all the time when turning into his neighborhood. (I’ll add to that a friend who was an NFL player whose frequent and threatening run-ins with the cops while playing in Georgia weren’t caused by sartorial or automotive lapses, but his white fiancé.)
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/03/19/race-class-deba...
In aggregate, the accumulative benefits of capital are denied them; black wealth crosses generations at a fraction of the rate white wealth does. In this sense it is hard to make a case for any black American being a member of the true capitalist class.
This is a relevant fact that seems like it may be amenable to intervention.
> black wealth crosses generations at a fraction of the rate white wealth does
Note that the factors that drive wealth preservation are also what drives wealth accumulation in the first place. When you've always been living in a more-or-less chaotic environment and almost no one around you is intimately familiar with a feasible alternative, it becomes really, really hard not to eat your marshmallow (or, to use a different image, your "seed corn"). This has nothing to do with race per se of course, but plenty with material conditions, even in a Marxian/Marxist sense.
Certainly a meme I've heard a million times. I think Obama even said it while he was still president.
But so what? I don't see what it's supposed to imply.
You've got a black guy living in poverty working two part time jobs no benefits, obeying one abusive authoritarian after another over his whole life.
Maybe that guy really does feel more solidarity with a black factory owner whose life does not resemble his in any way. But why is this?
It's not because that any black people are actually more affected by "profiling" than by their class situation. It's because they're economically conservative in the "embarrassed millionaire" sense -- more likely to view the robber baron as a figure of aspirational emulation than an exploiter. These types of people (they're the majority of every race of course) aren't leftists turned off by class politics, they're just on the opposite side: they're the economic right-wing. They're quite simply on the side of the owning class, even though they're not owners.
> if you run that same materialist analysis today, the evidence for class's primary, let alone a sui generis status, is the weakest it has ever been.
Huh?? People's day to day lives are still regulated by wages. Children's upbringings are defined by the competition to conform to requirements of the wage-paying institutions. How can class not be primary? Black or white, the odds have to be 90%+ that the last "or else" order you obeyed was delivered under a wage-based threat.
It's impossible to look at racial disparities in sentencing, qualitatively or quantitatively, and think this. The research is clear: The absolute richest black people get accused and sentenced like working-class white people. Working-class black people get treated like sub-humans.
> They're quite simply on the side of the owning class, even though they're not owners.
The most successful revolutionary leftist movements in the modern west are those taking up racial issues, from SNCC and the Black Panthers onwards.
> Black or white, the odds have to be 90%+ that the last "or else" order you obeyed was delivered under a wage-based threat.
The intensity of "else" in an "or else" order matters. Worrying about "the most recent one" is pure sampling bias. That's exactly the problem; the median worst case for working-class white leftists is losing their job. For others, regularly, it's their life.
I beg you, read some books by black, female, and queer leftists. They have good ideas.
It was a figure of speech, not any kind of "sampling" at all. I don't consider you to have addressed my point.
>That's exactly the problem; the median worst case for working-class white leftists is losing their job. For others, regularly, it's their life.
WTF is a "median worst case"?
You can certainly say: death rates for blacks are higher than whites. But the death rates in the USA are fairly low for any race; while the rates of having your entire life structured around class-imposed labor obligations are practically 100%! For every race!
Edit:spelling, clarity
Religious and other highly-conservative groups on the right practice exactly the same sort of shame, shunning, reactivity, and condemnation behaviors. They've practiced them longer than "woke" has been a thing[0].
Yet they get to rail about these things in the press without being told to take the log out of their own eye by either their own members or the supposedly-hostile press. The public lets the right set the agenda on "PC" or "woke" discussions instead of simply rolling their eyes and being like "how can the group that is trying to cancel people for not being obsequious enough to Trump say shit like this?"
It clearly isn't a communication style thing alone that results in people disliking it, or results in it being ineffective with some people. People who identify any complaint about any white person's behavior w.r.t. race as a personal attack on them don't care about the framing, they care about the message. "We fixed racism in the 60s, stop trying to be reverse racist" and stuff like that.
[0] See https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0924S9N7W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?... from almost 30 years ago, talking about a long history even then, for instance.
https://www.theobeers.com/favorites/vampire-castle/
I’m increasingly amazed at Fisher’s perceptiveness—he published this in 2013. He was always ahead of the curve.
Talking about it when it was still "very online" is being ahead of the curve. You don't have to be one of the first to be ahead.
One of the factors that I've come to focus on, in retrospect, is smartphone penetration—which crossed 50% in the US in 2012.[0] The wide currency of social media apps did a lot to allow the metastasis of the "libidinal-discursive configurations" that Fisher identifies.
Tumblr culture was an earlier harbinger, but I don't see how we can compare it to what subsequently developed on progressive-left Twitter.
[0]: https://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/nielsen-smartphones-used-b...
We can compare it because it's the same memeplex, just on a different medium. Just as we can compare Qanon nuts writing on 4chan vs. Facebook.
I would be fascinated by a real history of this stuff. It'd be almost impossible to find someone who could do it honestly, though.
Having lived through it, I remember op-ed pieces, which I can no longer find, that I clearly remember as events that shaped the way people around me thought and talked.
For just one example, I clearly remember reading an op-ed calling for the word "gross" to be used against those who stood in the way of feminist aims. The idea was that physical disgust was a "conservative" emotion thay could be repurposed -- and that women's role as arbiters of sexual attractiveness could be useful here. Now today I still occasionally hear the word "gross" used in this way. It's almost a shibboleth. If only I could find that op-ed!
Here's another empirical example (US chosen as it leads Europe in these things):
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=g...
We can see the exponential plain as day. What I want to know is: What was the spark, the seed, the detonator?
The problem is, it's fundamentally, mathematically, difficult to run diffusion backwards, let alone an explosion, let alone viral reproduction. "Was it the lab or the wet market?" Lyapunov exponents get in the way of telling. And self-interest. And actual -- yes, though I hate the word -- gaslighting by the actors themselves.
But the history hasn't quite been erased yet. I think a dedicated person could piece a lot of it back together.
It's interesting that this kind of smart culture jamming is also now mostly coming from the conservative side of the aisle. Trump has been very shrewd in using liberals' emotional stances to "own" them, discredit his would-be opponents and effectively push his own policy proposals. (Such as repeatedly describing other countries as acting "unfairly" towards the U.S. - a pretty clear dogwhistle targeted at the liberal emotion of "fairness"!)
Also in all these critiques of wokeness, the conversation always seems to involve Twitter. Maybe Twitter, the realm of hot-takes and snappy one-liners, just isn't a place where people should spend their time?
As someone working in the tech industry, I’m eager to work on something exciting and futuristic. But what I find is that any project is constrained by the logic of neoliberal capitalism. Social media sites have to be designed to be addictive and pull people’s attentions away from real family and friends, otherwise you can’t earn profit and compete. The future doesn’t excite us anymore because all technology has given us is a boring, robotic, and atomized life.
Yeah, that's the general take of End Of History, that the zeitgeist of what's to come has collapsed onto mere different hues of Liberalism in all its expressions, but we will see, specially with Trumpism might be showing its head again globally soon enough, but ofc it ought be noted that Trumpism, is itself yet another branch of liberalism
I think he meant people are always busy fiddling with their phones or whatever, but the content they are consuming and producing is uniform and absent any surprises.
Analogies through pop-culture is something Mark Fisher also did very well to get his point across, and appeal to a broader audience.
“There are certainly conspiracies in capitalism, but the problem is that they are themselves only possible because of deeper level structures that allow them to function. Does anyone really think, for instance, that things would improve if we replaced the whole managerial and banking class with a whole new set of ('better') people? Surely, on the contrary, it is evident that the vices are engendered by the structure, and that while the structure remains, the vices will reproduce themselves.”
But then at other times, he seems fall into the same traps that makes me hate a lot of postmodern(or whatever this is) writing.
-Constant references to other writers, only to use their polysyllabic neologisms 2-3 times without any explanation. I wouldn't mind this so much but this book usually sold as a good starting point.
-Defining things with grandiose, nearly contradictory analogies.
-A deep pessimism, sometimes I feel I'm reading some kind of anti-Pangloss.
"This makes capitalism very much like the Thing in John Carpenter's film of the same name: a monstrous, infinitely plastic entity, capable of metabolizing and absorbing anything with which it comes into contact. Capital, Deleuze and Guattari says, is a 'motley painting of everything that ever was'; a strange hybrid of the ultra-modern and the archaic. In the years since Deleuze and Guattari wrote the two volumes of their Capitalism And Schizophrenia, it has seemed as if the deterritorializing impulses of capitalism have been confined to finance, leaving culture presided over by the forces of reterritorialization."
It makes me frustrated, because I feel like Fisher really does have a lot of interesting things to say. But the only time I can bring myself to hate the state of world this much is if I spend too much time on twitter or in mandatory HR trainings.
That was useful, although 2009 was a bit late to notice.
I've made the point for years that a big problem with capitalism is that it has become a monopoly ideology. When communism was taken seriously, capitalism had to deliver better results. That period ended some time in the 1980s, when even communists stopped taking communism seriously. A decade later, running on empty ideology, the Soviet Union collapsed, not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Back when communism looked like a serious alternative, there was more self-restraint by capitalists, out of fear that voters would vote in more controls over business. Once communism ran down, we got a system where "greed is good, greed works" was taken seriously as an organizing principle. Now, that's barely questioned. It is no longer seen as an obligation of society to provide a good standard of living. That's just viewed as a trickle-down side effect of markets. This is a big problem.
Useful propaganda films for capitalism vs. communism, to show how far back this goes:
- "Meet King Joe" (1949) [1] "Joe is the king because he can buy more with his wages than any other worker on the globe"
- Challenge of Ideas (1961) [2] Capitalism vs communism, a propaganda film with all the big names - John Wayne, Edward R. Murrow, and others. "Man is a responsible being" - John Wayne.
There's far more in that genre.
[1] https://archive.org/details/4050_Meet_King_Joe_01_19_26_08
[2] https://archive.org/details/Challeng1961