Ask HN: If you used to be socially awkward and shy, how did you improve?
To be fair to myself, I am not awful in social situations in that depending on the context I can be seemingly confident and calm, especially when I am among people I know and the context is familiar.
When it comes to new people and places, everything changes dramatically. My voice changes, my posture changes, everything changes. I can start being awkward in all possible senses.
The discomfort gets to the point where I blush and this physical state of vulnerability and self-doubt of course makes things even worse :)
I understand that all of that relates to self-esteem and phychology in general therefore my question.
It's common to advise hitting on the gym, which I just started doing last week. Funnily, the gym is the place where I last noticed my awkward behavior :)
If you have managed to deal with that and improve in that regard, what is your success story?
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 218 ms ] threadBy the way, this question is off-topic here, please use reddit.
This ought to be great to be able to know. It means you can probably moderate your social exposure to fit your experience level and build on a known foundation.
Success is much easier if you can define the social context you're aiming for beforehand, and slowly work at mastery. If you open the filter too much too early (i.e. I want to be able to be social anytime & anywhere), it's overwhelming.
Good luck, you got this. (Personality trainer)
It turns out I'm not really that shy. I just don't like spending more than about 3 minutes at a time around most people.
Talking to lots of more or less crazy drivers several times a day, week after week, unlocked something in me, and since then I've been able to have a pretty good conversation with anyone about anything.
• Say yes to every social invitation I received for a period of about 2 years, whether it was something I thought would be fun or not — and never flake. Get to be known as a reliable person who is down for anything.
• Set a goal of speaking to a person I didn’t know every day — could be as simple as “Hello” to a cashier at the grocery store, but I had to do it
• Date more - went out on an average of 2 first dates a week (all found through OK Cupid). Just getting coffee, going to dinner, going to a movie, taking a walk — simple stuff with no pressure. Just meet another person, ask questions about their life, share about my own life.
It was a very fun and life-changing experience.
1. Stop thinking of yourself as shy person. As soon as that thought comes to your mind squash it immediately. Never ever complete that thought. That thought usually comes as a pressure release self compassion mechanism under stressful social situations like walking into a new place.
2. Focus on the opportunity instead of the obligation. Once you have quelled that thought replace that thought with what you might get from this social iteration, like potential date. Contrary to popular belief shy ppl get immense joy from social interactions.
3. Shyness is ego gone haywire. Get your ego under control, its ok if you tried to talk to someone and they just ignore you. Get your ego under control. No one really gives a shit about you and ppl have very very short memories. Redirect that thought back to no 2.
Posture is a great place to start. Just practice making sure that you keep a confident posture. Standing up straight. Shoulders back and relaxed. Head looking forward and alert. Focus on keeping your posture. A lot of how people read "confidence" is noticing these cues. It will become second nature if you practice.
Check out "power posing" also. Works for some people, doesn't work for others. Totally works for me.
For your voice, what is it doing? Probably going up higher? That's because your muscles in your neck are tightening up. Gotta keep them relaxed. I bet you'll find when you get your relaxed posture in place that your voice will change less also.
If you need a script the easiest thing to do and understand is that people love to talk about themselves.
1. introduce yourself 2. ask their name 3. ask how they are or how their day is going 4 .... 5. continue to ask them questions as they appropriately come up.
Question 4 can be context dependent.. are you at a party of a mutual friend? Are you at a meetup? Basically use the shared environment to bootstrap the conversation. So a question could be like, "how do you know so and so" etc...
When I feel shy, I always seek out someone else seemingly shy and strike up a conversation that way.
It doesn't have to be perfect. And maybe take a friend with you who has more social awareness to help you. Tell them what your goal is.
Also if someone notices you are blushing and feeling flustered etc.. and asks you what's wrong, just take a breath and say that social situations are difficult for you but you are learning to work through them. Lots of people will be understanding. I say this as an adult. Sometimes you can be around immature folks who do not help the situation but those are people you don't really want to be around anyway.
In my personal experience and opinion, therapists seem to be... less aggressive / more tolerant of neurodivergent behavior, in a way that I didn't find as productive.
I was looking for someone who I could tell "I want to X" and would help me make that happen, less "I feel bad about my inability to X".
I can walk out of the door just fine, but my brain stops functioning when I try to think of things to do from there. I can likewise handle meeting new people if I somehow end up in a situation where that happens. It's just doing that intentionally that I have so far been unable to accomplish.
I've all sorts of strategies, but if I have no explicit purpose at some event I struggle with getting out of the house, and I'm just not enough of a dog person to get a dog.
But if you go out on the good days -- which is all really anyone does! -- then people will remember you if you only pop in to some event briefly on your bad days.
Lots of things to try.
I don't hate interacting with people; quite the opposite in fact. I just for some unknown reason am seemingly completely incapable of initiating interaction with unfamiliar people (and even initiating anything with people I know is rare for me to do).
Once you have a handle on the feelings and what triggers them, I think you'll get some insight into the currently unknown reasons. I'd be you'll also have theories on how to work around it, but if not, a good therapist can help.
[1] https://brenebrown.com/book/atlas-of-the-heart/
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Emotion-Thesaurus-Writers-Character-E...
Of course, don't actually do hard drugs without medical supervision. You are more likely to end up worse off. A counter anecdote, a friend of mine who was really extroverted is now pretty shy and nervous in social interactions after suffering a few psychotic episodes during one of our drug binges.
So in short my first reaction to meeting someone wasn't avoidance but instead to interact with them.
Alcohol in particular is a really nasty drug. Psychedelics are something I love to do every now and then, but they're really not for everyone and should be approached with caution.
A small dose of MDMA though. A little goes a long way, not a bad shout if you're open to it.
I.e. you can learn to prepare for certain situations, and learn that the outcome doesnt have to be bad. That can relax you, but there will always be situations that make you nervous.
I guess don't shy away from doing the things you need to be doing, and you will learn to deal with these situations better and be more relaxed about it.
2. In those social situations I tried to listen far far FAR more than I talk, and also observe. Once you really observe people around you you can see how many of them are awkward and shy and make "social mistakes" and recover from them without problems. You'll see most people are really not that different than yourself.
It worked very well for me, got confident incredibly fast. The hardest part is probably the first one or two events. I remember that for the first one, which was a recurring monthly event, I went physically as far as the door of the location in which it took place for two times without entering and bailing out at last second because of anxiety. Than the next month I went in and since then I still go to that series of events, and I found one of the best shy community I could hope for.
Remember that most people instinctively want to like you. Let them. But sometimes people are closed off. Do not let that get to you. Just stay chipper and move on.
I used to be the shy nerdy kid in school but most people in my life now wouldn't believe me if I told them that. I made a really deliberate effort to gain confidence in my social skills.
It's dated and embarrassingly titled, but How To Win Friends And Influence People is a really good, genuine book on this.
Among the things we learn is -- that we are much more "plastic" (and able to change by sheer force of will) than we initially thought. Things like hygiene, posture, clarity of speech (such that people can at least understand us) and tonal confidence are, for many of us, simply matters of bad habit that can be unlearned and their negative effects reversed, over time.
The more we improve ourselves in these basic areas, the better we feel about ourselves... and soon enough people notice, and over time it becomes not only gets easier but starts to feel natural. Not instantly but... over time. Until the day comes when you stop thinking (so much) about how "awkward" you are, and instead you're thinking about your new life, your new friends, your hot new relationship, your awesome new day job (if that matters), etc.
That and two other tips: (1) Taking the plunge, and moving to a totally new geographic area (or even just getting a different, much better place in the city where you live) can do wonders; as does (2) Paradoxically, not giving an F about what other people think. That is to say, acknowledging that it matters to some degree, on a certain level ... but in the scheme of things, it also just doesn't matter. Which helps you relax and feel confident (which does a lot to ameliorate the negative perceptions people have of you).
One thing I was initially afraid of when deciding to move was “running away from my problems” only to realize I’m in the exact same situation as before. Well, that was actually very true. I still felt like the same “awkward” person despite moving across the country. But here’s the difference; I was actually motivated to fix it.
Being in a new city opened my eyes to how much I wanted to explore, but also how much I was holding myself back. Ever since moving, I’ve lost my fear of being myself, have a partner, and found a higher paying job.
My main point here is that while you can’t run away from your true inner self, a new environment can certainly change your perspective and direction. I also want to note that I’m making it sound like it was as easy as moving, so to be transparent, it wasn’t easy. It took a lot of self discipline and discomfort, but it was worth every second of doubt.
I did everything I could. I’d say “please, help” but to be honest, I’ve grown too bitter to hear the advice. It’s a game designed to make me lose, I’m neither BALM nor female, so they just want to exclude me.
If you still insist on making it about them do everything women complain about that’s not illegal, except dick pics, unless you’re hung.
I’d recommend pairing the millionaire thing with bringing a couple grams with you to party. Everything else you described sounds like incel stuff.
Anyway I don’t understand what women are looking for, that’s why I’m getting downvoted.
You've supposedly been very successful and are caring of your friends, so I might be wrong of course. But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up. You should do things because they are your passion.
To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive? A stunning Pong score, a weirdly advance knowledge of B52 planes? A passion for fantasy books and their effect on the Mongolian peninsula?
Well, look around you, everyone gets their minute on stage, my schoolmates literally were into acting and showing off all the time. Even the thief of the band is with a cute girl now lol. But about ego-fuelled passions: the more everyone has a skill at making something beautiful, the more fun are your parties, because they all add up. So, it’s good to learn stuff, and I mostly want my participation trophy for bringing my share.
> You are supposedly caring of your friends
Yeah I was the one caring for the cancer friend while everyone had swimming pool. I was his worst political enemy when alive, he would have punched me if he had known my opinions, and here I was, his worst enemy, playing him his own song for his last breath, and none of his commie friends were here. Two days later his mother called me saying he never woke up. I was the last guy he saw, and not randomly, I was there every second day despite being 120km away. Me, the guy seen as selfish.
> But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up.
Can you technically describe it in a worse way? I think it’s a case of when a man isn’t successful, we blame him, and we depict him as the worst possible man, like expecting to “have pussy lined up like in the good ol’ times, cause you know, I’m all muscles and virility, big car with big sound, so women dishwasher blahblahblah.” I’m not this man. I’m just angry because I’m losing at life, and everyone caricatures me. I might just not be talented socially despite making all attempts respectfully (and making all attempts respectfully is what girls hate the most - even wifebeaters have a wife, I don’t) but it’s easier to imagine an incel chad, because the goal is to find a way to blame it on the guy.
> You should do things because they are your passion. To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive?
Yes, my work: I love building products and participating to the economic world, notably because it’s what I do best, but also because it makes everyone’s life better. Belonging to a charity is equally important. I also like windsurfing and guitar, but I’m average in both. But do realize that no woman is interested in a no-life worker with average level in two things, so yes, men have to adapt and do social stuff which puts them forward, preferably stuff that are halfway towards meeting women on a common ground. So according to your theory (for the return caricature, don’t take it literally), I should now be more seducing because I’m passionate in something. Actually, technically, you are saying not that I should be passionate, but I should be having a “stunning score” in that passion, so being excellent is required.
I think all of those are wrong leads. I think we as men should develop skills in many areas, guitar and windsurf included, and make a living and care for others around us, and girls should like us for who we are, and the fact that I’m not in, is both an unfortunate turn of events AND a very very very high hypocrisy of society about the incredible lack of consideration we give to men. And, perhaps, that society pushes so much into making diversity fashionable, that you really have to give “way more” of yourself as a white straight man, if you want a woman to accept you. And sorry, but I don’t want to be a slave to a woman, and I don’t want either to cheat her ego by flattering her with untrue stuff like so many are doing.
I’m crying because, writing this text, I notice I did so many things right, and I’m still losing at life and people still turn the blame back onto me. It’s an endless roundrobbin of blame, no-one will ever say “Ok guys, we did a mistake as a society, all wifebeaters have a wife, while regular workers get an annoying couple or no wife at all, while people who lie to w...
There are two ironies to this. The first irony is that no matter what some people do, they will not reap the 'rewards' that was promised to them. This becomes obviously true when we remember that we don't live in a just world, at all, of which this fantasy of cosmic justice relies on. The second irony is that this fantasy of cosmic justice is inherently damaging and perpetuates injustice. We need to drop the idea that good things follow good people.
In your case, you're seeing it play out in the dating world, where issues of loneliness and the natural, human desire for intimacy are dismissed as being superficial complaints from basement-dwelling "incels". I am sorry that you experience this. Moreover, there appears to be no correlation between passions for a number of hobbies and lifestyles with what people are ultimately attracted to. Personally, I think we should drop the whole idea that there's a list of things men need to do before women can find them attractive. The same goes for women.
I don't know you personally, and I think these kind of issues hit at the most vulnerable parts of people so I don't want to sway you with any specific ideas of my own. So the only advice I can offer is cautionary: be wary of adopting only a masochistic epistemology. It is tempting to see the world through the lens of "I will never be attractive to women, no matter what I do" and finding every example of this to reinforce it. Everyone who has experienced the darker depths of the human soul knows that there is a pleasure in believing that whatever hurts is true. This leads to a vicious cycle of thoughts. This pessimism must be tempered by an optimistic epistemology. What that bountiful optimism looks like to you, I don't know, but from my experience, it is a missing 'second half' to the world that I had to consciously find which brought a healing and resiliency that deepened my relationship with myself as well as others. Best of luck.
Like:
- stop treating people like NPCs in game, because it makes you look like a simpleton not them - "scoring" is not the goal, living life is - being interesting as a person is much more than "working out", "playing guitar" - if you try to "score" you seem like desperate loser, people see right through it - amount of money in bank account does not mean much if you are desperate loser - people have emotions and it is most important part to understand to "win" in life
The lengths that are required for people to acknowledge a problem… The “it must be you” answer.
Basically I learned I'm not so bad, and I'm not a great man either. I'm good enough. I don't hurt other people.
I like myself, and when you genuinely like yourself then other people's opinions aren't quite as important. Nearly everyone responds positively when you aren't seeking other's approval (but are still kind).
I suspect this comes with age for a lot of people. Didn't happen for me until my 30s. Losing weight and getting into shape was a huge catalyst, I highly recommend it.
Very true! I would go as far as emulating a person you admire due to their ability to interact with others. Deconstruct their interaction and look for the parts that can help you. One thing you will mostly notice is self confidence. People always feel good with people that project that. Make sure it's confidence not arrogance. It's a fine line.
And because they don't get all shy and awkward when the awkward thing happens, because they don't make it awkward, the other person doesn't feel awkward either, and maybe at most both parties laugh about it for a moment, the conversation continues and life goes on and that night they sleep the peaceful sleep of the innocent. Or they lie awake worrying about some entirely different set of life problems, because we're all just doing our best and showing the best face we can.
But strangely it largely creeped up to me when I was around 20ish years old, while my teenage anxiety largely diminished.
Share. Communication of all kinds goes together. If you get this far you may also find that practicing your voice in speech and writing will improve your self confidence too.
It all starts with very basic cues and the great thing is you can practice each and every day.
Start off by simply looking at e.g. the cashier at the store and ask "how's your day going?", or make a small quip about the weather e.g. "it sure is cold today, can't wait for Spring!".
Make this a daily practice even when you aren't feeling comfortable. Most people are happy to respond to simple friendly gestures and you'll slowly build confidence in your ability to connect with others.
Practice, practice, practice.
- Extremely extroverted introvert.
Now I usually do ask how the other person is, but I am always listening for the real answer. I never ask it without wanting to hear what they say. (And if I’m feeling bad or don’t want to hear their answer I do not ask at all.) Usually they give automatic responses, but if they don’t, I try to give them the respect of questioning or agreeing with them in a way that they know they were heard.
Re: weather, its not really about that, it's just opening the door that more often than not leads to a pleasant, random conversation with a total stranger.
All talk is significant.
If it is anything, "small talk" is talk that you don't mind other people hearing and joining. And if you think about that at a distance, it makes it very big talk indeed.
But it's not small if that is the conversation that allows someone you both haven't yet met to feel at ease in joining in to chat with you. That makes it powerful, because it leads on to people introducing themselves, more common ground being found, etc.
Also, it might be the only kind of talk that can "break the ice" in the general case. I mean -- imagine replacing small talk with a deep question about politics or science or music theory. It couldn't work so well in general.
That is what I mean about its significance. Almost all of us exist solely because of small talk between our until-then-unknown-to-each-other parents, for example.
"Small" talk is the beginning of almost everything.
Where I am, its common to say "how are you?" as a stand in for "hello", that is, without the expectation of an answer or even further conversation if you're just greeting someone in passing. Some time ago, I started making a point to actually respond and ask them how they are back, I often do this to cashiers in shops for example. For the most part, they seem to appreciate it. However, lately, I've been caught off guard a bit because there's one guy that works at my gym and he always greets me like that and out of habit, I stop, answer and ask him how he is, but he's not expecting further conversation since he was just expecting me to say "hi". Made for some awkward pauses until I adjusted my behavior to match his :)
I also used to have this attitude, until I realized it was handicapping me. The point is to get a conversation going, and sometimes the way people are comfortable doing this is through the banal ritual of asking each other questions they don't really care about the answers for, and faking that they do care. It's illogical, but then again, so apparently is one's desire to just have a connection with somebody rather than nobody. Putting the pressure on yourself to only ask deep and genuine questions of people you don't even know is just going to result in you deciding you have nothing important enough to ask yet, and sitting in awkward silence, or never approaching someone at all. It's the conversational version of "the perfect is the enemy of the good."
The last question sparks a lot of conversations. Many do it just as a side gig and for flexibility. It’s the only time that you get to talk to complete strangers while they are work for a prolong period of time.
You'll deal with shoplifters (confrontation). You'll deal with people that are upset and or having a bad day. You'll deal with mean customers occasionally. You'll deal with obnoxious coupon types that will drive you crazy. 97% of the customers will be pleasant, and in a slight hurry. You'll help solve their problems. You'll deal with communication challenges from time to time (slurred speech, health issues, different accents, etc). You'll interact with customers from a very wide variety of socio-economic backgrounds (from poor EBT card users to rich people, from teens to grandparents). So you'll see a broad spectrum of social interaction, in a quite safe environment overall.
One could take a paid phone-help job (support line of one type or another) to chat with lots of people, however the additional nice thing about the cashier job is that it's in-person. You also have a counter separating you from the customers (a bit of a shield for some introverts), and other employees in the store to back you up if anything unusual happens. The part-time cashier job is also not overly important to the store, so if you're working only one or two days per week you won't have very many other tasks put on your shoulders (which full-time employees will have).
So thrust yourself into every social interaction you can and watch yourself get better at it.
It's pretty simple, don't overthink.