I tangled with the FTB a few years ago. I’ve never lived in California or spent more than a couple consecutive days in the state. My employer was based in LA and screwed up my tax status in the payroll system. I somehow had no state income tax withheld for the year(I blithely filed and paid in my home state), paid a bunch of LA city taxes, and ended up with the FTB coming after me for tens of thousands in unpaid taxes and penalties.
The thing that was really unbelievable was how threatening and aggressive they were. When I got someone on the phone they refused to admit that there could be any way that I, a non-resident who never set foot in the state that tax year, could claim that my income wasn’t subject to their tax regime. Nope, it’s all California source income. That’s what they claim. And they make their documentation as confusing as possible, dark patterns at their best.
Eventually I got it sorted out. Never could figure out how to get my money back from Los Angeles.
Never ever deal with the IRS or any government agency on the phone. Always send a certified mail explaining your situation and documentation. They genuinely respond better. The phone operators have frustrated people yelling at them all day long and consider their outdated systems the source of truth. If the computer says you owe them, it must be true.
You're story doesn't really make much sense. For starters, Los Angeles does not have an income tax (and indeed, no city in CA does, as that is illegal under CA's constitution).
When I got someone on the phone they refused to admit that there could be any way that I, a non-resident who never set foot in the state that tax year, could claim that my income wasn’t subject to their tax regime. Nope, it’s all California source income.
If you've never lived in CA you wouldn't have owed income tax on more than the portion of the salary you received for the few days you were in CA, and certainly not tens of thousands, unless your employer claimed you were a CA-based employee. In which case your beef is with your employer, not with the CA FTB, as the FTB is merely relying on the documentation provided by your employer.
And they make their documentation as confusing as possible, dark patterns at their best.
As a tax lawyer, I deal with the FTB pretty regularly. They're usually helpful, and the agents I've dealt with have been remarkably easy to work with in addressing penalties, past-due taxes/returns, etc.
Never could figure out how to get my money back from Los Angeles.
Why do you think you paid money to LA? LA does not collect income taxes.
This makes a lot of sense considering I could never find any information whatsoever about tax collection in LA. I guess somebody else got those dollars in the local tax on the w-2, I could never figure it out. It was maybe $1200 too.
Having been personally on the receiving end of the incompetence of both California FTB and the US IRS, I can assure you that there is no scheme to commit fraud. It is plain, unadulterated incompetence. Coupled with extremely complicated tax code, underfunding and poor technology, they can’t help but make mistakes. In fact they are so stupid that once I filed an amendment and they processed it wrong and ended up owing more money than I expected. This was filed by a tax attorney on my behalf. The attorney was surprised at this deviation and advised me it would be cheaper to pay them off instead of dealing with their BS. It made no financial sense to fight their mistake. US tax code is horrible.
In another situation the FTB received my payment and failed to apply the payment to a tax year. They didn’t send a refund but promptly sent a threatening letter. Upon pointing it out they reversed the interest penalties and charges.
Actually ran into something similar this past week.
FTB sent me a Notice of Proposed Assessment related to my 2017(!) return. Apparently I had taken a deduction that the FTB decided was invalid. After researching and concluding the deduction was indeed invalid, I went on their website and paid the balance including the interest.
Then a month later I got a Balance Due Notice informing me they would soon pursue collections actions against me, e.g. garnishing wages etc. Looked online, showed I still had a balance. Check bank account, sure enough, they had deducted it. Payment history on their website showed the payment, but status was "Suspense".
Called them several times, each time was told they were too busy to take my call, try the website. On my second attempt I finally got someone on their chat system to release the funds. Apparently, their practice is to release the funds only when you file your next tax return... but in our case we moved out of state, so they potentially would have started forcibly collecting money that I had already paid them.
Apparently, their practice is to release the funds only when you file your next tax return...
I don't know who told you that, but that's definitely not true. I deal with the FTB fairly regularly, and payments are applied to the oldest outstanding balance in their system (as it should), regardless of tax return filing status.
The primary issue is when payments are recorded against the wrong tax type (i.e., use tax instead of income tax), or when it is not clear what taxpayer account to apply the balance to (such as when the check name does not match a taxpayer in the system, and the taxpayer did not follow instructions to include a tax payment voucher identifying the tax account or did not put their tax id number on the check).
Here's what I've learned from reading your responses: if a person is a lawyer who specializes in interacting and/or commonly interacts with the FTB, then the "FTB are easy to work with"; but, if you're a "regular" person that interacts with them, there's a nontrivial opportunity for the interaction to go sideways.
The fact that you appear to have no sympathy for the plight of these people is awful.
Here's what I've learned from reading your responses: if a person is a lawyer who specializes in interacting and/or commonly interacts with the FTB, then the "FTB are easy to work with"; but, if you're a "regular" person that interacts with them, there's a nontrivial opportunity for the interaction to go sideways.
Not just my experience. Literally the experience of every other person I know who's had to talk to the FTB. Interestingly enough, every person who's failed to get their issue resolved with the FTB was a programmer, but the gamut of people who succesfully resolved things with the FTB on their own ranges from musicians to small-business owners and HNWI's.
Here's what I've learned from the tech bros complaining about the IRS/FTB: they've always made a mistake, but assume that because they're programmers that they're leet at the law (it's just rules right?), and refuse to admit that they messed up, so they yell at and blame the agent instead of asking for how they can get the situation resolved.
And then they tell other people ridiculous stories to cover their mistakes, like "the money doesn't get applied until you file your next return" (false, that's not how the FTB payment backend works) or "I paid income taxes to Los Angeles" (also false, since CA cities can't collect income taxes).
If they had just dropped the uber-leet tech bro act and talked to the FTB/IRS agents like their human beings doing their jobs, i.e., that they may have messed up trying to follow the rules and just wanted to get things resolved, 99.999999% of the time, the agent would have worked with them to resolve things amicably.
The fact that you appear to have no sympathy for the plight of these people is awful.
The comments I was replying to laid all the blame for clear errors on the agents rather than on themselves. Why should I feel sympathy for people who are unwilling to own up to the fact that they made an error and insist on blaming the person who is just doing their job?
In my case I paid the balance online and picked "Notice of Proposed Assessment" as the payment type. When I asked the chat agent why it was in suspense, that was their explanation.
I've had some weird behavior from them as well--I get a letter saying I owe something like $35 for some reason...
I decide to pay it, go to the website, it says the ID number given is invalid. I couldn't get anyone on the phone. I gave up on trying to pay it.
Then a few months later they sent me a check for about $200 for no reason I can divine.
Then a month ago I got a 1099-INT for 14$ of interest (on WHAT?!) from the FTB.
I honestly don't think they have any idea what's going on there.
I've also had the same behavior from the IRS. They're sending me bills for taxes I've paid-- and they've cashed the checks.
I truly hate them. I've spent weeks trying to sort this stuff out, and literally just got another letter an hour ago saying I owed something I have already paid.
13 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 39.8 ms ] threadThe thing that was really unbelievable was how threatening and aggressive they were. When I got someone on the phone they refused to admit that there could be any way that I, a non-resident who never set foot in the state that tax year, could claim that my income wasn’t subject to their tax regime. Nope, it’s all California source income. That’s what they claim. And they make their documentation as confusing as possible, dark patterns at their best.
Eventually I got it sorted out. Never could figure out how to get my money back from Los Angeles.
When I got someone on the phone they refused to admit that there could be any way that I, a non-resident who never set foot in the state that tax year, could claim that my income wasn’t subject to their tax regime. Nope, it’s all California source income.
If you've never lived in CA you wouldn't have owed income tax on more than the portion of the salary you received for the few days you were in CA, and certainly not tens of thousands, unless your employer claimed you were a CA-based employee. In which case your beef is with your employer, not with the CA FTB, as the FTB is merely relying on the documentation provided by your employer.
And they make their documentation as confusing as possible, dark patterns at their best.
As a tax lawyer, I deal with the FTB pretty regularly. They're usually helpful, and the agents I've dealt with have been remarkably easy to work with in addressing penalties, past-due taxes/returns, etc.
Never could figure out how to get my money back from Los Angeles.
Why do you think you paid money to LA? LA does not collect income taxes.
In another situation the FTB received my payment and failed to apply the payment to a tax year. They didn’t send a refund but promptly sent a threatening letter. Upon pointing it out they reversed the interest penalties and charges.
What's funny is that people thought he was crazy when he said he could abolish personal income tax, but he had done all the calculations.
FTB sent me a Notice of Proposed Assessment related to my 2017(!) return. Apparently I had taken a deduction that the FTB decided was invalid. After researching and concluding the deduction was indeed invalid, I went on their website and paid the balance including the interest.
Then a month later I got a Balance Due Notice informing me they would soon pursue collections actions against me, e.g. garnishing wages etc. Looked online, showed I still had a balance. Check bank account, sure enough, they had deducted it. Payment history on their website showed the payment, but status was "Suspense".
Called them several times, each time was told they were too busy to take my call, try the website. On my second attempt I finally got someone on their chat system to release the funds. Apparently, their practice is to release the funds only when you file your next tax return... but in our case we moved out of state, so they potentially would have started forcibly collecting money that I had already paid them.
Cool agency.
I don't know who told you that, but that's definitely not true. I deal with the FTB fairly regularly, and payments are applied to the oldest outstanding balance in their system (as it should), regardless of tax return filing status.
The primary issue is when payments are recorded against the wrong tax type (i.e., use tax instead of income tax), or when it is not clear what taxpayer account to apply the balance to (such as when the check name does not match a taxpayer in the system, and the taxpayer did not follow instructions to include a tax payment voucher identifying the tax account or did not put their tax id number on the check).
The fact that you appear to have no sympathy for the plight of these people is awful.
Not just my experience. Literally the experience of every other person I know who's had to talk to the FTB. Interestingly enough, every person who's failed to get their issue resolved with the FTB was a programmer, but the gamut of people who succesfully resolved things with the FTB on their own ranges from musicians to small-business owners and HNWI's.
Here's what I've learned from the tech bros complaining about the IRS/FTB: they've always made a mistake, but assume that because they're programmers that they're leet at the law (it's just rules right?), and refuse to admit that they messed up, so they yell at and blame the agent instead of asking for how they can get the situation resolved.
And then they tell other people ridiculous stories to cover their mistakes, like "the money doesn't get applied until you file your next return" (false, that's not how the FTB payment backend works) or "I paid income taxes to Los Angeles" (also false, since CA cities can't collect income taxes).
If they had just dropped the uber-leet tech bro act and talked to the FTB/IRS agents like their human beings doing their jobs, i.e., that they may have messed up trying to follow the rules and just wanted to get things resolved, 99.999999% of the time, the agent would have worked with them to resolve things amicably.
The fact that you appear to have no sympathy for the plight of these people is awful.
The comments I was replying to laid all the blame for clear errors on the agents rather than on themselves. Why should I feel sympathy for people who are unwilling to own up to the fact that they made an error and insist on blaming the person who is just doing their job?
I decide to pay it, go to the website, it says the ID number given is invalid. I couldn't get anyone on the phone. I gave up on trying to pay it.
Then a few months later they sent me a check for about $200 for no reason I can divine.
Then a month ago I got a 1099-INT for 14$ of interest (on WHAT?!) from the FTB.
I honestly don't think they have any idea what's going on there.
I've also had the same behavior from the IRS. They're sending me bills for taxes I've paid-- and they've cashed the checks.
I truly hate them. I've spent weeks trying to sort this stuff out, and literally just got another letter an hour ago saying I owed something I have already paid.