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Tell HN: Google Play blocked payments for Riders app with 1M users

176 points by igordebatur ↗ HN
Google blocked our payment profile for Riders App (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.whitescape...).

After 2 months of providing all of the required docs and getting auto-declines, I've talked to their support and they just answered (quote):

"I have consulted our specialist about your account. Our specialist team has determined that this profile must stay suspended due to violations of our Terms of Service. We’re unable to discuss the specific circumstances of this or any suspensions.

Our Google Payments Terms of Service states that Google Payments Corp. reserves the right to change, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Services at any time, including availability of the Services, or any Service feature, without notice or liability."

The app has nearly 25k of positive ratings and currently one of the most popular apps for action sport participants.

I frankly don't have any idea what to do, that's super sad.

84 comments

[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 141 ms ] thread
igordebatur
I read an another thread where there were questions about legitimacy of the app. And here we are: we have 25k+ positive ratings, the app is unique, it provides value for tens of thousands of active users.

The full disclosure is: we've closed our previous bank account to open a new one. Google tried to send a payment to our previous bank account, it has returned, they instantly locked our payments profile and that's it, the whole story.

vmception
believe it or not, jail!

(the substantive nature of this comment is that Google acts like an autocrat and hopefully this provides introspection for relevant stakeholders that can eventually influence Google to be more collaborative)

vsviridov
We have the best Play store customers... because of jail.
stirlo
> we've closed our previous bank account to open a new one. Google tried to send a payment to our previous bank account, it has returned, they instantly locked our payments profile and that's it, the whole story.

Was you previous account Russian based? When was it closed?

If you changed it after the war began I can see how Google would notice a Russian associated company (Whitescape) moving to a new bank account just before/during the sanctions and see it as an attempt to evade them which should obviously be blocked.

It seems this is a lesson to move your company to a more stable country (Canada) as soon as you can. Not to wait until the the leader does something the whole world condemns.

didntknowya
yea there's plenty of details that could've been disclosed before presenting a one sided story
soraminazuki
There are plenty of comments one could’ve read before jumping to conclusions too.
igordebatur
The problem is, Google hasn't disclosed their side of story: there's no official reason given. That's the problem: their algorithms did something and that's it. I tried to provide as much data points as I could and answered every question in the thread.
igordebatur
This previous bank account was also in the US: Bank of America. And then, the issue lasts for 2 months+.
donclark
Have you considered a side-load option (not through Google Play)?

Why is that not an option?

Has someone documented the process and all the options in hosting your own app independent of Google Play?

What are the drawbacks?

duskwuff
OP is being denied access to Google Pay payments processing, not to the Play Store.
donclark
Point taken. But if he hosts it himself, could he not use whichever payment processor (except Google Play)?
uncletammy
I was under the impression that one of the conditions to being listed in the Play Store was that all in-app payments had to go through Google. Am I wrong about that?
igordebatur
This. It would be against the rules to use any other payment methods.
colinmhayes
> Why is that not an option?

Because the vast majority of android users only download apps through the play store.

metadat
Most users are too inept to install a downloaded APK.

Furthermore, even if they somehow understand how to do it, Google chrome and Android OS work together to make it extremely scary sounding for end users.

The combined messaging is akin to:

"you're about to infect your own baby with HIV, press [ok] to cancel or [cancel] to abort operation and report as malware to goggle."

This isn't anticompetitive, is it? Gargoygle is only trying to keep you safe by preventing you from running what you want on your own device. There are no other possible solutions to protect people from malware, dummy! /s

Capitalism seems pretty effective compared to tested alternatives, but it sure does encourage a lot of counterproductive and nasty stomp-and-screw-the-little-people behaviors.

igordebatur
The problem is, at least a half of the audience is not tech-savvy, plus Google Play is a part of monopoly: it brings extra traffic. If the app is not on google play, it can't compete with others
car_analogy
> We’re unable to discuss the specific circumstances of this or any suspensions.

This is a lie. They're not unable, they're unwilling.

tehlike
it's both. Explaining the case (by a support person) might be evidence used in court for wrongdoing. That's similar to the reasons why most interviews won't tell you why you are rejected.
car_analogy
Even if true, that still falls under unwilling. But is there a single case where being given a reason for a ban has been used to successfully sue someone? (Assuming the reason is half-way legitimate, i.e. not "You were banned based on a protected characteristic.")

I'm rather sick of implausible legal scenarios being imagined to excuse corporate behavior. At least let their PR department come up with the excuses, don't do it for free.

santoshalper
Not wanting to expose yourself to legal liability may be good business sense, but it is absolutely a choice they are making. It's not like they are under a consent order from the DOJ not to tell these guys why their account was suspended.

This sounds like splitting hairs but I think it's a meaningful difference. Powerful people and companies use Bullshit as a means of obfuscating their motives and actions. They hire armies of lawyers and PR flacks to message everything in a way that absolves them of responsibility. You can't just take stuff like this at face value.

They just murdered a business partner's company and won't even tell them why. It is possible that he's lying to us and was doing some shady shit (shady people almost never tell you they are being shady), or it is possible that he just got crushed by a Kafkaesque bureaucratic machine.

jtbayly
And I know which one I think it is…
igordebatur
But in our case it looks like they're not willing to solve the issue at all. They will surely help someone who pays them millions in commissions, but they're not interested even to talk to smaller fish.
uncletammy
This type of subtle corporate Newspeak enrages me. It's corporate gaslighting and I wish I understood it's intended goal. For me, the only thing it achieves is solidifying my resolve to end business with the offending company while simultaneously resenting the support agent who's willing to lie to strangers for money.
vinyl7
The goal is to say a little as possible so that they won't get into legal trouble or have to actually solve a problem
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS
Also known as "weasel words" as it lets them weasel out of things
cute_boi
I wonder why people tolerate such Kafkaesque situation. Government doesn't seem to thrash these big techs who doesn't give a damn about people's livelihood.
igordebatur
I think it should become one of the main Government responsibilities – to deal with corporations on behalf of people. Otherwise we'll find ourselves in Blade Runner / Cyberpunk-like corp-run world situation quite soon.
StopDarkPattern
And they have collected information on 100 companies just like you that they're purposefully shutting down prior to the release of their new Google service! LMFAO.
g_p
If you're based in Europe, consider if there's any opportunity to avail yourself of this legislation - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...

Specifically, article 4 covers termination of service, and the rules around this. Most tech giants seem to be unaware of this regulation, as it's inconvenient for their "computer says no" model.

mike_d
> computer says no

Which is rarely the actual case. Blaming the computer is what they will tell you because we don't want to reveal how you got caught so you can defeat detection the next time.

CamperBob2
Don't forget to cc: your state and national legislators. They are the only ones who can actually fix this.

In your letter, point out that any sufficiently-dominant corporation is indistinguishable from a government, and do they really want the competition?

igordebatur
I want to, but I'll need to 'Google' how it's done first. I never thought I'll need to lawyer up against Google. Shit.
elkos
I would suggest righting a letter and sending it via snail mail. In most cases letters to public offices are archived, they get a protocol number and all that jazz. Send this as Cc:ied to the local Google HQ and keep us updated.

Be frank about your concerns and seek resolution of the subject at hand.

If you have a lawyer that can assist you in writing such a letter (yes even an informal letter) that wouldn't get you in hot legal waters with Google even better.

jeroenhd
The owner of the app, Whitespace, is listed on Google as having their headquarters in St Petersburg. Could it be related to this: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...? Google has suspended payments to Russia as a consequence of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the many sanctions results from that (like kicking many Russian banks from the international payment system).

Whitescape also lists a location in Estonia, which obviously isn't a problem, but if Google doesn't know about that (or thinks you're misleading them) then you might still be screwed.

igordebatur
The app was published many years ago by Whitescape, the agency we owned at that point. I was born in Russia 35+ years ago. But now I'm the resident of Canada. Google has never asked me about this.

But even that must not be the case: since then the Google Play account and it's payment profile are associated with Riders app Inc (the US Delaware c-corp) and our new bank account is with Mercury (Evolve bank and Trust)

mike_d
The owner of the app is a company with a Russian nexus. Do you have a formal asset transfer agreement that moved the ownership of the app and all related assets to your Delaware corporation? Did the original company receive anything of value in exchange for all the assets? Can that agreement be independently verified?

These are the things I would personally look for in an investigation to determine if "Riders app Inc" was a corporation of convenience or the actual owner of the app.

igordebatur
Yes, we've transferred the ownership and it's obvious in the Google Play's dashboard, I triple checked. All the IP's belong to Riders App Inc, the domain etc. The company is properly structured.
mike_d
So respond back to Google with the wire receipts where you paid Whitescape for the app and divested yourself of any ownership in that entity.
igordebatur
How's so? The problem lasts from 2 months ago. The original issue couldn't be about any ties with Russia.

I'll still try to do that ^ but not sure if this could help.

mdoms
Ok so it's very clear that you've been rightly caught up in Russian sanctions. Your recourse is to put pressure on the Russian government of which you are a citizen.
igordebatur
Nope: I'm not a resident of Russia, neither other shareholders. This is not the case. And the problem is ongoing for 2 months+.

I understand the willingness to bring this, but currently this is not the case.

temp8964
But you are a citizen of Russia? Do you pay tax to Russia?
igordebatur
No I don't pay tax to Russia, I happily stopped when I moved to Canada.
vmception
You can count on one hand the number of countries that tax their citizens who earn outside of their country.
cute_boi
I personally think its egregious to tax people when they aren't using any resource from the country where they don't live. Tax is mainly collected for development of nation, at least that's what government says.
vmception
Yes, that is what they say, what they do is largely different. The outcome, and my current view, is that the threat of taxes incentives other kinds of transactions, and when those transactions are not pursued then the remainder of the money available is taxed.

This means do the transactions that are not tax events, do the transactions that are deductible expenses, do the transactions that result in tax credits. Invest in the area or sector experiencing the tax holiday, move to the area with the tax exemption.

No individual politician will say it that way, any individual politician will say the opposite “tax everyone, fair share, yada yada”, but they are politicians, and the political body in aggregate creates tax laws more similar to my observation.

And yes, I can acknowledge that there is a very limited number of things that a wage slave can do to reduce taxes. The tax code awards taking risks, this doesn't mean the employee wont fail and have no remaining ability to exchange time for food and shelter. But if you dont fail, it will continue rewarding you.

mdoms
Have you renounced your Russian citizenship?
igordebatur
This requires getting another citizenship and it takes time. I'm waiting.
jacquesm
For Canada: good luck. I gave up after a couple of years of waiting with endless promises that it would soon be resolved, it felt like building on quicksand.
igordebatur
I have high hope and a lot of persistence but I hear you. All of my friends told me that Canadian bureaucracy is super slow. So I came prepared.
mardifoufs
Wait, I thought canadian citizenship is pretty much guaranteed after ~3 years as a permanent resident. I'm not sure since I got it when I was 9 years old but is it different now? Is it even possible to get without a PR?
jacquesm
It isn't. And even getting permanent resident status can take a long, long time.
smeej
Yes, please, try to oust your...dictator.

Oh wait. That's not how it works? You mean the tyrant who's invading another country doesn't give a rat's behind about the opinions of the citizens of the country he already controls?

Weird.

</s>

Edit: typo

mdoms
He can't single-handedly oust a dictator, obviously. But sanctions have collateral damage and that's very much intentional. Lots of people who are actually in Russia are having a much, much harder time than OP right now.
ahelwer
My sincere wish is that you are someday held to the moral standard you currently apply to Russian citizens. I suspect you would not enjoy that day.
asats
My opinion of the HN and the whole startup / silicon valley crowd got significantly worse because of the predominance of people like mdoms here on HN. Clueless, entitled and often bordering on being straight up evil with their "good intentions". "Just go back to your country and overthrow your dictator, aren't you a citizen" somehow seems to be a common line of thinking here.
postsantum
I smell trolling in his comments, but, in general, it's a very common worldview that is probably caused by excessive Marvel-like products consumption. If you go to a place like r/worldnews, you will see this is a mainstream position there
cute_boi
Yea, that subreddit group seems to be promoting anger, rage, hawkish behavior in people. And, the worst thing is they are epitome of Dunning Kruger effects, and they believe they consummately know about geopolitics, science, politics etc.. Probably, complete anonymity & intolerance without consequence has imbued wildness in those people. I just hope HN would discourage such behavior.
speedgoose
You need people like this, otherwise you would not live in a democracy.

Im probably not willing to die for political purposes but I’m thankful my ancestors overthrew the king.

asats
I admire and support people willing to die for democracy and freedom, but I have serious doubts there is any overlap between those heroes and these armchair warriors telling other people to risk their lives.
igordebatur
asats, I wish for more people to understand that there are shades between black and white, who're looking to hear arguments before making quick decisions. But it doesn't seem their percentage is much different in other communities than silicon valley / HN, it seems like a major problem attached to humanity itself. I hope for this to change while I'm alive and sane though. Would be cool to see.
igordebatur
The issue is not a result of sanctions: it has started much earlier. Thank you for bringing this as a potential reason and I think I understand why you're trying to kind of activate people who're not standing against the regime and the war. But this is not my case: I'm also against the regime and the war, I do what I can to support my Ukrainian teammates and friends, all of my teammates and friends do the same.

But again, this isn't the topic of this discussion. But thanks.

mardifoufs
He said this started 2 months ago. I don't think google started sanctioning Russia 1 month before the invasion...
StopDarkPattern
Many companies are experiencing attacks that get their content banned to cause them monetary damage. Bungie being one of the more main stream games. Google knows very well what they're doing and they pretend to hide behind a wall to not get involved. I recommend taking your case to your state representative and also consulting a lawyer. Detail and record everything you have stated to Google about your injustice and show that they have tried to automate you away with dark pattern.

Pursue justice.

mdoms
You played in someone else's sandbox and now they don't want you there. Too bad. You should have built your own sandbox. Come on man, you knew this.
danlugo92
Just build your own trasatlantic submarine cables bro
igordebatur
And then a nuclear power station while you're on it
wvenable
If you want to make an app from scratch, you must first invent the platform.

-- Carl Sagan, probably.

soared
“Why did you build a mobile app? You should have built a new phone, app ecosystem, payment processor, and then an app” - mdoms
mdoms
Build on the open web. Works for thousands of other companies every day.
ptudan
Wow, you're using compilers someone else designed? Watch out for them changing the assembly, code monkey
agluszak
Tell HN/Reddit has apparently become a de facto standard appeal procedure. This has to change. Google and other giants must be regulated. It shouldn't be so that unless you get in touch with an employee personally you stand no chance against the System
igordebatur
Couldn't agree more. On the contrary, in this case Apple's approach was the most humane: they answered within a day and helped to change the bank details. The first payment went through. I'm not advocating for Apple, but at least there was a real human on other side from the day one.
chrisp_how
Google is attempting to claim property control over a non-fidele property; someone else’s, because it claims as the “carrier” it can state that and it be accepted.

Have faith, Google is a defunct business. All law sees Google has disregarded property real-rights many, many times. All parties will receive proper reconsolidation.

It is inconvenient though-hang in there!

2mioji33
You are a direct competitor to Google Maps. So, Google will try to evaporate your business.
igordebatur
No, why? RIDERS provides tutorials and tips for action sports. I think you've mixed up us with some other app with a similar name.
postsantum
Why don't you just make a new GP account and transfer the app there? I had my Pay account suspended a couple of years ago for verifications issues and it worked just fine.

Be careful and don't forget to change the dev name https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30811297