No, I can't agree. This stuff is not symbolic. The conflict is over nothing less than paramount human issues like bodily autonomy. This virus is simply not very dangerous to the vast majority of people, and those people who make close contact with reality have figured out that masking doesn't make any practical difference, so they do the minimum required not to be scolded. Those people that the left typically looks down upon for lacking a fancy education, those are the people who actually make this world work. They are out in reality; the NPR listeners are in the bubble.
Being forced to do silly things is not a trivial issue. If superstition and unfalsifiable claims of harm reign, there is no limit to how bad things can get.
Bad mask wearing and dousing yourself in sanitizer before going outside might be silly theater that doesn’t necessarily stop the spread of COVID or death, but they do tell us something deeper about a society. Like how much they care about each other, how much they are invested in taking one for the team, and how much they are trying to put the greater good over their own self expression. Even if it doesn’t fully work out.
In the US, and Western Europe, we went a different route. We didn’t come together. We followed the individualistic path, not the collectivism path, and those who could, removed themselves from society, cocooned in a bubble of protection, where they didn’t need a mask. Via zoom, second homes, and workers to deliver them stuff.
Others, mostly the working class and poor, didn’t have the ability to do that. They continued making sure society didn’t fall apart, so that the cocooned could run their laptops, eat good food, and live safety. All while wearing a mask, and all while having to follow many other rules.
> those people who make close contact with reality have figured out that masking doesn't make any practical difference
Wait, what? What's your epistemology here? I thought medical studies overwhelmingly show that masking does make a difference. Are you suggesting that we should just ignore the studies and listen to people 'who make close contact with reality'? What does that even mean?
Indeed. The only case where it makes sense is when severe cases ramp up so quickly that they overwhelm the health system.
Right now we're in a stable situation even without masks and most countries here in Europe have abandoned them even in public transport and doing just fine. Sadly where I live (Spain) is not one of them :(
But for personal protection there's no point. COVID has become so contagious we're all going to get it sooner rather than later anyway. Might as well get it over with. Or at least make it a personal choice. Those who are worried about it can wear the heavy masks but leave the rest of us alone :)
What I agree is they made sense during the first waves. Omikron doesn't overwhelm the health system even when it's left to roam freely so there is no point doing it anymore.
If a new version pops up that does cause issues again there is a point again. Not right now.
And when one does pop up that does this there is sufficient warning to just put the mandate back in place again. Right now it's just not a proportionate measure. Many countries that have dropped the mask mandate are proving this. It's a really heavy-handed measure to have in place "just in case". It should be used only when there is an immediate problem. This last part is my opinion of course, and I assume you don't agree but this is the part we won't agree on.
I guess for me, wearing a mask is like wearing a hat: I'm essentially comfortable wearing one in some contexts forever. For me, it's just not heavy handed at all. There are many other restrictions we've had through the pandemic I've found much harder: especially missing hospital visits and funerals for loved ones. Having a baby during the pandemic was not great, for example.
I get that's not everybody's opinion. I would be pretty relaxed about an end to mask mandates if that was a majority opinion amongst public health experts. I'd also be relaxed about mask mandates continuing: my feeling is that people get way too emotionally involved in these things and it's best to just relax and accept that public health policy is by nature broad brush.
I had some serious respiration issues when I was an infant and the masks give me a constant state of panic due to the association in particular with the humid air (I can't tolerate saunas too). At the time I was basically choking to death several times and needed a steam machine to keep my airways open. This association is too deep to ignore.
For this reason I really hate the masks and in particular the "broad brush" nature of the regulations here. There is just absolutely no way to get an exception. I've lost a lot of trust in society over the past years. I know it's an edge case but my work, public health agencies etc, none of them really give a damn.
For example at the office I've proposed to do a self-test every day I go in, that's a small deal for me. Protection is not perfect (they can give false negatives) but neither are masks. But they just don't care (even though I had to do a mandatory training praising their "commitment to mental health"). They told me straight out they don't care whether I wear a mask or not but they don't want to set a bad example. It's all politics and virtue signalling. This is what I mean by 'health theatre'.
Yeah, I saw that from your post history. Could you get a doctor to sign you a note giving you a medical exemption?
I don't think this is really a mask issue, it's a, 'people not taking psychological suffering seriously' issue. It's a bit like why everybody is so blase about depression, even though it's the number-one killer for many age groups.
I do not know on what country data your conclusion about omicron is based on but it really did overwhelm health care system in countries with low vaccination rates.
You could not compare masks with contraception because if you keep having sex, yes, it will result in pregnancy but infections diseases are not like sex because they come in waves and if you can outlive the current wave, your risk drops near zero until next wave hits.
Another important difference is that you could not have lesser pregnancy but you definitely can have less serious symptoms when you are exposed to lesser amount of virus particles.
For me it's done the opposite. It's re-enforced my individuality.
I have an old medical issue that makes masks very troublesome to the point of panic. I've spent the last two years trying to explain this and been nothing but stonewalled at work, in the medical community etc. Nobody wants to find a solution, their medical theatre is more important to them. Even simpler solutions like allowing me to work remotely or letting me book an office when I'm there are rejected because they don't want to undermine the message.
In the end it showed me how easy it is to become marginalised and how all those people that say they care about inclusion don't really give a fuck about fixing edge cases as long as they are seen to be virtuous.
I was pretty socialist myself but now I've become totally individualist. When given the choice between what's best for me or for society I will always choose myself from now on. I've learned from my mistakes. F society.
I have a friend in a wheelchair who told me about this in the past but I never saw it. Companies promoting inclusion and installing fancy wheelchair ramps, yet not totally ignoring things like the accessway into the building that's full of steps. It's mostly virtue signalling. Being confronted with this myself really opened my eyes.
Poor young people walking on the street alone wearing a mask. Wealthy people and politicians going to the Super Bowl not wearing a mask. Does not look very healthy
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[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 52.9 ms ] threadBeing forced to do silly things is not a trivial issue. If superstition and unfalsifiable claims of harm reign, there is no limit to how bad things can get.
In the US, and Western Europe, we went a different route. We didn’t come together. We followed the individualistic path, not the collectivism path, and those who could, removed themselves from society, cocooned in a bubble of protection, where they didn’t need a mask. Via zoom, second homes, and workers to deliver them stuff.
Others, mostly the working class and poor, didn’t have the ability to do that. They continued making sure society didn’t fall apart, so that the cocooned could run their laptops, eat good food, and live safety. All while wearing a mask, and all while having to follow many other rules.
Wait, what? What's your epistemology here? I thought medical studies overwhelmingly show that masking does make a difference. Are you suggesting that we should just ignore the studies and listen to people 'who make close contact with reality'? What does that even mean?
Does it work better than nothing for some time-limited period? Sure.
But does it work? No, if pregnancy is not an acceptable outcome then you can't rely on it.
You can't take the probability of contracting an infection on one exposure and then extrapolate it out. Over a long enough period p reaches 1.
Right now we're in a stable situation even without masks and most countries here in Europe have abandoned them even in public transport and doing just fine. Sadly where I live (Spain) is not one of them :(
But for personal protection there's no point. COVID has become so contagious we're all going to get it sooner rather than later anyway. Might as well get it over with. Or at least make it a personal choice. Those who are worried about it can wear the heavy masks but leave the rest of us alone :)
Wait a minute:
A. You agree masks slow transmission.
B. You agree the issue with covid is 'case spikes' overwhelming hospitals.
You don't see the logic of mandating A, to prevent B? For the record, masks work far less well when only some people wear them.
Obviously, masks should come off at some point, but there's no point being hasty. They make sense.
If a new version pops up that does cause issues again there is a point again. Not right now.
And when one does pop up that does this there is sufficient warning to just put the mandate back in place again. Right now it's just not a proportionate measure. Many countries that have dropped the mask mandate are proving this. It's a really heavy-handed measure to have in place "just in case". It should be used only when there is an immediate problem. This last part is my opinion of course, and I assume you don't agree but this is the part we won't agree on.
I get that's not everybody's opinion. I would be pretty relaxed about an end to mask mandates if that was a majority opinion amongst public health experts. I'd also be relaxed about mask mandates continuing: my feeling is that people get way too emotionally involved in these things and it's best to just relax and accept that public health policy is by nature broad brush.
For this reason I really hate the masks and in particular the "broad brush" nature of the regulations here. There is just absolutely no way to get an exception. I've lost a lot of trust in society over the past years. I know it's an edge case but my work, public health agencies etc, none of them really give a damn.
For example at the office I've proposed to do a self-test every day I go in, that's a small deal for me. Protection is not perfect (they can give false negatives) but neither are masks. But they just don't care (even though I had to do a mandatory training praising their "commitment to mental health"). They told me straight out they don't care whether I wear a mask or not but they don't want to set a bad example. It's all politics and virtue signalling. This is what I mean by 'health theatre'.
I don't think this is really a mask issue, it's a, 'people not taking psychological suffering seriously' issue. It's a bit like why everybody is so blase about depression, even though it's the number-one killer for many age groups.
You could not compare masks with contraception because if you keep having sex, yes, it will result in pregnancy but infections diseases are not like sex because they come in waves and if you can outlive the current wave, your risk drops near zero until next wave hits.
Another important difference is that you could not have lesser pregnancy but you definitely can have less serious symptoms when you are exposed to lesser amount of virus particles.
I have an old medical issue that makes masks very troublesome to the point of panic. I've spent the last two years trying to explain this and been nothing but stonewalled at work, in the medical community etc. Nobody wants to find a solution, their medical theatre is more important to them. Even simpler solutions like allowing me to work remotely or letting me book an office when I'm there are rejected because they don't want to undermine the message.
In the end it showed me how easy it is to become marginalised and how all those people that say they care about inclusion don't really give a fuck about fixing edge cases as long as they are seen to be virtuous.
I was pretty socialist myself but now I've become totally individualist. When given the choice between what's best for me or for society I will always choose myself from now on. I've learned from my mistakes. F society.
I have a friend in a wheelchair who told me about this in the past but I never saw it. Companies promoting inclusion and installing fancy wheelchair ramps, yet not totally ignoring things like the accessway into the building that's full of steps. It's mostly virtue signalling. Being confronted with this myself really opened my eyes.