Good to see action that actually protects the interests of the little guy. Seems like a rarity these days - to the extent that I almost find the good news suspect - but I'll take the W and move on.
My original comment was misinformed. I did not realize the full scope of civil law.
According to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor).
I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
Does the FTC accuse them of lying to federal authorities? That's what 18 USC 1001 is about. (It's Ken White's archetypical example of a bullshit statute, for what it's worth).
My error. I should have said 18 USC 1001 and the following entries all under Chapter 47. There's quite a few examples there. There are also a bunch under Chapter 63.
Exactly. Their revenues are approximately half a billion dollars. The 10 million-dollar fine will do nothing. A few days in jail for the senior people would have a much bigger effect.
Civil enforcement action by federal agencies does not preclude criminal prosecution, which often takes longer when both occur for similar conduct.
But, especially in cases where civil enforcement is on behalf of and recovers money for harmed individuals, it's often higher priority as well as being faster because their is a lower barrier to initiation.
>According to the complaint, the dealerships would often wait until the end of the hours-long negotiation process to sneak junk fees for add-on products and services into consumers’ purchase contracts, which often run as long as 60 pages. These junk fees were often added despite consumers specifically declining the add-ons or having confirmed prices that did not include the add-ons. In other cases, the consumers were falsely told the add-ons were free or were a requirement to purchase or finance their vehicle.
The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you and insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!"
Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans, and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock it with my phone, and drove off.
>The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this,
Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually enforce this stuff.)
These ads for AutoTrader are so funny though because it's "we don't add hidden fees" instead it's "we bought Kelly Blue book so now our prices seem to be fair but are probably the same $2k higher anyways".
Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
NGL I actually laughed at the last one. It wasn't intentional, just as they made a specific comment about part of the drivetrain, I couldn't take them seriously anymore.
They didn't really know what to do about that, which helped things out.
> Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon.
Saturn did this. I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that. My first 2 car purchase experience were at Saturn dealerships and TBF it left me ill-prepared for the 'typical' dealership experience.
I will say that Truecar was pretty helpful in purchasing one of my cars; at the time I wound up getting invoice on a custom order without a bit of haggling about price. They did do the F&I bit but honestly it was fairly low pressure, (helped it was late in the day and the end of the month so they wanted it on the books.)
My last purchase, I was referred by a friend, the salesfolks were up front and didn't upcharge. Yeah they did the F&I thing but were otherwise as close to the Saturn experience as I ever could have wanted.
> with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need.
Some of them are kinda useful, but case dependent.
- My WRX, I opted for the special windshield coat due to my work route at the time being -terrible- for windshields (I went through 2 in one year on my previous car...) And sure enough that crap worked. Between coating applications you could see the dimples. I also opted for Rim protection on that car. In my case it paid for itself, because #PureMichigan
- I've -never- opted for an enhanced warranty. I typically take the cost of replacing the most expensive component that could fail within 5 years (and/or the mileage I'd expect to drive in that time) and not be covered within the provided warranties, and compare to what they want for an extended plan. It's almost never worth doing.
> "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't,"
Finance/incentives are weird on the surface, but If you think about 'X$ cash back OR Y% APR through <financing arm>' (where Y is better-ish than common rate,) It's really just buying off the extra interest, like points on a mortgage. Depending on where your credit is at, that financing-arm option may be a better one than others anyway (always shop around though.)
>I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that.
Incidentally my first new car was a Scion and the sales process wasn’t nearly as smooth as they’d like you to think it was.
The extent of the ”Pure Pricing” system was that a dealership posted a menu of the vehicle and service prices, and that was the price you paid. It wasn’t a nationally set price — the dealer could price the car as they wished, and everyone who walks in pays that price.
All that really changed about the dealership experience was that once I picked a car on the lot, there was no price negotiation to do, so they handed me right off to the Toyota dealership’s F&I guy and it was the standard slimy F&I experience from there.
It certainly was not an experience where I was able to go to Scion Dot Com, choose the car, arrange financing and trade-in online, and the delivery appointment is a quick thing where you drop your trade and go. That was the experience with Tesla; I spent all of 15 minutes physically at the store on delivery day and 10 of it was just me adjusting the seats/mirrors and logging into Spotify.
Yeah generally people don't buy a car frequently enough to navigate the bullshit, plus you kinda get emotionally invested during the 3 hours they make you hang around, softening you up.
I have had pretty good luck laying on my don't give a shit demeanor extra thick.
Out of 7 car purchases in 10 years I have had one instance where I should have walked out because the extended warranty BS was insulting (Honda) and once I threatened to walk if they didn't Due Bill a replacement second key - he didn't like that at all... (BMW).
These guys screwed me over in exactly this way when I bought a car from them three years ago. I raised hell when the deal I was asked to sign was for ~$2k more than we negotiated, but they wouldn’t budge. I should have walked away, but it’s hard when they spring it on you at the last second after you’ve spent hours getting to that point. Before I left their lot, I pulled the license plate frames with their name off the car and made a show of throwing them in showroom trash can. I told them they had sold a car, but I would forever tell everyone I know how shady they were.
I'm sorry you had that experience. I've helped dozens of people buy cars from them and they are notorious for this. It's a shame, most dealers do this crap. It's ridiculous.
Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where to sign and who to make out the check to.
Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some people like that. But historically people like to negotiate on big purchases. It's a game, how close to invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways.
And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too, and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they really have much in the way of options. They're catering to a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and are willing to wait.
LOL. I work with dealers as part of my job. They're just going to sell you what you want. The easiest marks are the folks who think they know how to negotiate. If you are straightforward and you follow through, they aren't going to screw around trying to get another few bucks, they're going to take the sale.
>Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where to sign and who to make out the check to.
Every dealership I've been to will nod their head then precede to upsell you in F&I. They'll make sure you don't actually get to F&I until you've been their for 5 hours where you're so tired, hungry, and agitated you just want to gtfo with your car. That's not to mention todays market where every dealer acts like and prices like its a privilege to be able to pay them $50,000+ for a vehicle.
you always want to do your research before ever going to a dealer, any dealer. after that you go and see the car + test drive it.
after that you talk $$$. if you drag this process for more than 30-40 min or try stupid stuff, as a customer I will get up and walk. Also for my last car the dealer had a guy that was assigned specifically for internet sales and I actually saw the car in person + worked out all the details through email.
again, as a customer (minus the pandemic shiftshow which will eventually die down) you have the power to decide what is and what is not acceptable.
Start a stopwatch when you sit down. Tell them they have 15 minutes to complete the sale or you walk. They can save time by discarding the upsells you're going to decline.
That's a fallacy. It's kinda like thinking a real estate agent is always going to get you the best price. No, he's going to get whatever results in a guaranteed sale right now. Dealers are no different. Sure, they'll sell the car to someone else if you walk. But you're right there, paying the price they asked for. They're not going to quibble over F&I.
I find that if you play no games and you are completely honest about your intentions, they'll just do what you want. If they start to act a little shady, just get up and head for the door. You'd be surprised how quickly the sales guy (or F&I, same difference) gets the picture. You don't let a sticker price customer walk over some missed upsells. Source: I work for a company that writes software for dealers, I pick up a lot of insider knowledge along the way, including strategy. And I've bought like 30 cars over my life. These days I just get a price by email and then walk in to grab the keys. I rarely have to stand up and walk towards the door, because I know who the shitty dealers are in the area and I avoid them. Most of the major manufacturer dealers aren't particularly shady.
I bought my last car (an Audi) at Carmax. Got within spitting distance of the price I wanted from their list price. A week later, they listed the same car in a higher trim. Carmax swapped the cars; I just paid the difference. It was like buying a TV at Best Buy. But with a better return policy.
I don't think you have to buy a Muskmobile to avoid rapacious dealers.
Serious question: Was the BBB always a joke? I remember 30 years ago it was generally regarded as a trusted and neutral entity. Much like Consumer Reports still is. (Yeah, people have their quibbles with CR’s methodologies and verdicts, but I don't see anyone question their integrity)
But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the businesses they purport to review.
OP here: I run a popular youtube channel helping people get fair car deals (search YAA). We are building a crowdsourced database of reviews to find dealers who are doing this type of stuff: https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/
52 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 104 ms ] threadAccording to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor).
I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
Those people are nearly immune from criminal wrongdoings.
But, especially in cases where civil enforcement is on behalf of and recovers money for harmed individuals, it's often higher priority as well as being faster because their is a lower barrier to initiation.
The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you and insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!"
Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans, and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock it with my phone, and drove off.
Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually enforce this stuff.)
Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
NGL I actually laughed at the last one. It wasn't intentional, just as they made a specific comment about part of the drivetrain, I couldn't take them seriously anymore.
They didn't really know what to do about that, which helped things out.
> Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new blender on Amazon.
Saturn did this. I think Scion did too, but could be wrong on that. My first 2 car purchase experience were at Saturn dealerships and TBF it left me ill-prepared for the 'typical' dealership experience.
I will say that Truecar was pretty helpful in purchasing one of my cars; at the time I wound up getting invoice on a custom order without a bit of haggling about price. They did do the F&I bit but honestly it was fairly low pressure, (helped it was late in the day and the end of the month so they wanted it on the books.)
My last purchase, I was referred by a friend, the salesfolks were up front and didn't upcharge. Yeah they did the F&I thing but were otherwise as close to the Saturn experience as I ever could have wanted.
> with a healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection plans" you don't need.
Some of them are kinda useful, but case dependent.
- My WRX, I opted for the special windshield coat due to my work route at the time being -terrible- for windshields (I went through 2 in one year on my previous car...) And sure enough that crap worked. Between coating applications you could see the dimples. I also opted for Rim protection on that car. In my case it paid for itself, because #PureMichigan
- I've -never- opted for an enhanced warranty. I typically take the cost of replacing the most expensive component that could fail within 5 years (and/or the mileage I'd expect to drive in that time) and not be covered within the provided warranties, and compare to what they want for an extended plan. It's almost never worth doing.
> "the price is this if you finance and that if you don't,"
Finance/incentives are weird on the surface, but If you think about 'X$ cash back OR Y% APR through <financing arm>' (where Y is better-ish than common rate,) It's really just buying off the extra interest, like points on a mortgage. Depending on where your credit is at, that financing-arm option may be a better one than others anyway (always shop around though.)
Incidentally my first new car was a Scion and the sales process wasn’t nearly as smooth as they’d like you to think it was.
The extent of the ”Pure Pricing” system was that a dealership posted a menu of the vehicle and service prices, and that was the price you paid. It wasn’t a nationally set price — the dealer could price the car as they wished, and everyone who walks in pays that price.
All that really changed about the dealership experience was that once I picked a car on the lot, there was no price negotiation to do, so they handed me right off to the Toyota dealership’s F&I guy and it was the standard slimy F&I experience from there.
It certainly was not an experience where I was able to go to Scion Dot Com, choose the car, arrange financing and trade-in online, and the delivery appointment is a quick thing where you drop your trade and go. That was the experience with Tesla; I spent all of 15 minutes physically at the store on delivery day and 10 of it was just me adjusting the seats/mirrors and logging into Spotify.
I have had pretty good luck laying on my don't give a shit demeanor extra thick.
Out of 7 car purchases in 10 years I have had one instance where I should have walked out because the extended warranty BS was insulting (Honda) and once I threatened to walk if they didn't Due Bill a replacement second key - he didn't like that at all... (BMW).
I’m happy to see this.
Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some people like that. But historically people like to negotiate on big purchases. It's a game, how close to invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways.
And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too, and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they really have much in the way of options. They're catering to a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and are willing to wait.
Buy a Tesla.
Don't just go make Elon richer.
Every dealership I've been to will nod their head then precede to upsell you in F&I. They'll make sure you don't actually get to F&I until you've been their for 5 hours where you're so tired, hungry, and agitated you just want to gtfo with your car. That's not to mention todays market where every dealer acts like and prices like its a privilege to be able to pay them $50,000+ for a vehicle.
(setting aside the pandemic)
you always want to do your research before ever going to a dealer, any dealer. after that you go and see the car + test drive it.
after that you talk $$$. if you drag this process for more than 30-40 min or try stupid stuff, as a customer I will get up and walk. Also for my last car the dealer had a guy that was assigned specifically for internet sales and I actually saw the car in person + worked out all the details through email.
again, as a customer (minus the pandemic shiftshow which will eventually die down) you have the power to decide what is and what is not acceptable.
In this car market they’d be crazy to give up a car without upselling, given manufacturers’ prohibitions on raising prices.
I don't think you have to buy a Muskmobile to avoid rapacious dealers.
The number one cause of micro plastics near waterways comes from car tires.
The customer review rating however is 1.22 out of 5.
https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-d...
But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the businesses they purport to review.