Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government, and videos of pow torture by them keeps coming out in social media. I am open to the idea that those are false-flag operations by the Russian army itself... but are you willing to consider that something like this can be a false-flag operation by groups like Azov with the knowledge or blessing of the Ukrainian government?
Let's talk about Azov again when Russians aren't standing on foreign soil. Also according to Russia they can't be PoW if there isn't a war. What protections are afforded to foreign spies?
> Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government
So is the Wagner group with the Russian government. Your point being?
> videos of pow torture
As per the Russians, this is not a war. Hence, they're not prisoners of war. Or we can have our cake and eat it too? If something bad happens to a Russian soldier on Ukrainian territory, that's that all part of a 'Special Hospitality Operation'.
By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not. They lied about Crimea, they lied about invading Ukraine, they lied about the refugee corridors, they basically lied about everything, if it suited their goals. They're lying right now. Satellite images show that the mass graves were there since before the Russians left Bucha. What they did there is something all Eastern Europeans who had ancestors 'liberated' by the Russians know too well.. Not to minimize the current tragedy, but this is tame compared to the past exploits of the Red Army. I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg and that the south-east of Ukraine is pretty much hell on earth right now.
Same for Iraq, Libya, etc. Declarations of war mostly died after WWII.
"Hence, they're not prisoners of war"
They are to be treated as civilians then, according to the Geneva convention.
"By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not"
This is true for pretty much every sovereign state active on geopolitical games. Everyone will try to use PR/propaganda to justify their actions and get more people to support their cause, it is only natural.
> Groups like Azov are actively supported by the Ukrainian government
Because they're defending Ukraine amidst an invasion? Also keep in mind the extremist leaders of Azov left when they were made part of the National Guard.
> but are you willing to consider that something like this can be a false-flag operation by groups like Azov with the knowledge or blessing of the Ukrainian government?
Is levelling all of Mariupol a false flag? Azov doesn't even have the capability... As for Bucha, Azov operates entirely near, well, the sea of Azov (guess where they got their name from?) ie. Mariupol, which is some distance and separated from Bucha (which is north of Kyiv).
And what does Ukraine gain from a false flag of killing civilians at this point? They know the west won't help. Meanwhile Russia is trying to demoralise them to surrender knowing that they'll never face repercussions for their atrocities...
"The head of the DNR, Denis Pushilin, awarding a medal to Lieutenant Colonel Timur Kurilkin for "destroying 250 Nazis" - which is ironic, considering Kurilkin has two neo-Nazi patches clearly visible on his uniform."
I will go with the propaganda from a state that doesn't literally control mass media and where we don't shoot journalists in the street or poison dissidents. Thank you very much for such a valuable input, 40 day old account with negative karma which exclusively posts Russian misinformation about the war in Ukraine.
> the timing is just so much convenient for the west
Convenient how? The west will still do nothing.
Meanwhile Russia is trying to demoralize the Ukrainians into accepting shitty peace terms knowing they won't face real repercussions while trying to save face.
If this actually was proven to be a false flag the Ukrainian state would be done, forever. You might think your logic is sound but it isn't.
And that's on top of the fact that, well, all evidence points to Russia doing it.
Haven't you read Russian propaganda? The west (which is the devil, basically) is waging war against Russia. The west is the reason Russia is a shithole rural petro-state. Also, the west is trying to turn Russian men into gays. After this incident, the west will ramp up the 'war' by not sending troops or firing anything in Russia's general direction even HARDER. But will still try to turn Russians gay and make fun of Putin, because in the limited universe of the Russian propagandist, 'the west' is the end-all enemy of Russian greatness.
Did I mention that the west is to blame for Ukraine getting invaded by the Russians? In the spirit of "Look What You Made Me Do", Russia was basically forced to bomb hospitals and schools. It will all be Biden's fault when Russia becomes a larger North Korea.
Did I also mention Russia has 0 agency? Everything it does is driven by the west.
I don't know where to start with people like you. The west very obviously encouraged ukranian nationalism, which does threaten russian people, and very obviously encouraged Kiev not ro implement the Minsk accords, which provoked the war (together with other factors). Your country indeed did everything it could to prevent Russia from developing: it is called "containing Russia" by the american newspeak.
I don't have the time to deal with the rest of your "views" - it is just an arrogant and mean caricature.
And you are very obviously talking out of your ass, indeed.
I think it's also safe to brush aside Russian nationalism which literally threatens the whole planet. I didn't say that. The Russian president 'itself' said it right before he made a fool of 'itself' and of his army.
> I don't have the time to deal with the rest of your "views"
Please don't. Do the world a favor and invest your time in more productive endeavors.
Ukrainian nationalism threatens the Russian people? How? You think Ukraine is going to march on Moscow? (Let us note very carefully who invaded whom here.)
What's actually happening is ethnic Russians in Ukraine getting a taste of non-Putin flavored government which would spill over into Russia. The battle here is not over some land or some resources. Putin does not want the example of an EU Ukraine to serve as a goal for his own people. An orange revolution in Moscow is what's keeping the geriatric clown up at night. This is what it wants removed. This is the actual translation of 'Ukrainian nationalism threatening Russia'. A free, prosperous, democratic Ukraine would inspire Russians to want the same thing at home. Just look at what the Russian soldiers are looting. It's very similar to some backwards iron curtain peasants suddenly ending up in Paris.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 60.2 ms ] threadIf Russia is not calling this a war, why it RT reporting it as "war"?
https://www.rt.com/news/552636-stoltenberg-stays-nato-ukrain...
Also explain the discrepancy in writing in the Russian version of the same article. For some reason for Russian speakers it's a "situtation" in Ukraine. https://russian.rt.com/world/news/980654-god-nato-stoltenber...
"Лидеры НАТО согласовали продление полномочий генсека альянса Йенса Столтенберга ещё на год на фоне ситуации на Украине."
Don't assume that people are fucking stupid just because you think they only know English.
So is the Wagner group with the Russian government. Your point being?
> videos of pow torture
As per the Russians, this is not a war. Hence, they're not prisoners of war. Or we can have our cake and eat it too? If something bad happens to a Russian soldier on Ukrainian territory, that's that all part of a 'Special Hospitality Operation'.
In terms of your second point, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception
By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not. They lied about Crimea, they lied about invading Ukraine, they lied about the refugee corridors, they basically lied about everything, if it suited their goals. They're lying right now. Satellite images show that the mass graves were there since before the Russians left Bucha. What they did there is something all Eastern Europeans who had ancestors 'liberated' by the Russians know too well.. Not to minimize the current tragedy, but this is tame compared to the past exploits of the Red Army. I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg and that the south-east of Ukraine is pretty much hell on earth right now.
Same for Iraq, Libya, etc. Declarations of war mostly died after WWII.
"Hence, they're not prisoners of war"
They are to be treated as civilians then, according to the Geneva convention.
"By default, the Russians are lying, unless there's evidence that they're not"
This is true for pretty much every sovereign state active on geopolitical games. Everyone will try to use PR/propaganda to justify their actions and get more people to support their cause, it is only natural.
Because they're defending Ukraine amidst an invasion? Also keep in mind the extremist leaders of Azov left when they were made part of the National Guard.
> but are you willing to consider that something like this can be a false-flag operation by groups like Azov with the knowledge or blessing of the Ukrainian government?
Is levelling all of Mariupol a false flag? Azov doesn't even have the capability... As for Bucha, Azov operates entirely near, well, the sea of Azov (guess where they got their name from?) ie. Mariupol, which is some distance and separated from Bucha (which is north of Kyiv).
And what does Ukraine gain from a false flag of killing civilians at this point? They know the west won't help. Meanwhile Russia is trying to demoralise them to surrender knowing that they'll never face repercussions for their atrocities...
"The head of the DNR, Denis Pushilin, awarding a medal to Lieutenant Colonel Timur Kurilkin for "destroying 250 Nazis" - which is ironic, considering Kurilkin has two neo-Nazi patches clearly visible on his uniform."
Convenient how? The west will still do nothing.
Meanwhile Russia is trying to demoralize the Ukrainians into accepting shitty peace terms knowing they won't face real repercussions while trying to save face.
If this actually was proven to be a false flag the Ukrainian state would be done, forever. You might think your logic is sound but it isn't.
And that's on top of the fact that, well, all evidence points to Russia doing it.
Haven't you read Russian propaganda? The west (which is the devil, basically) is waging war against Russia. The west is the reason Russia is a shithole rural petro-state. Also, the west is trying to turn Russian men into gays. After this incident, the west will ramp up the 'war' by not sending troops or firing anything in Russia's general direction even HARDER. But will still try to turn Russians gay and make fun of Putin, because in the limited universe of the Russian propagandist, 'the west' is the end-all enemy of Russian greatness.
Did I mention that the west is to blame for Ukraine getting invaded by the Russians? In the spirit of "Look What You Made Me Do", Russia was basically forced to bomb hospitals and schools. It will all be Biden's fault when Russia becomes a larger North Korea.
Did I also mention Russia has 0 agency? Everything it does is driven by the west.
Depressing that Russians and tankies believe it though.
I think it's also safe to brush aside Russian nationalism which literally threatens the whole planet. I didn't say that. The Russian president 'itself' said it right before he made a fool of 'itself' and of his army.
> I don't have the time to deal with the rest of your "views"
Please don't. Do the world a favor and invest your time in more productive endeavors.