Reminds me of how in 2019 the New York Times demonstrated that Russia was intentionally bombing civilian hospitals in Syria, partly through intercepted radio transmissions:
> Correction: An earlier version of this article stated that the BND had intercepted radio traffic discussing murders of civilians in Bucha. It stated that the radio traffic had been linked to the bodies photographed in Bucha. However, further research has revealed that the communications can only be geographically assigned to the region north of Kyiv, even if they show clear parallels to the killings in Bucha.
The Western Ukrainians (AFU), who are fighting vs the Eastern Ukrainians (LPR & DPR), and the Russian Army (Moscow Regime) all speak Russian, and have similar radio equipment. With the exception of the new Western new radio gear that the Western Ukrainians CIA-supported units have fielded, they are all using similar stuff. Given they all speak Russian with minimal difference, it is premature to say which force is doing what where in the middle of a contested warzone.
Please be very careful with the trolling. In a past life I had contact with teams returning from Kossovo having handled mass graves there, identifying corpses, getting information to investigators, these ones then talking with families, piecing through what exactly happened.
Some of the affected persons, still alive 30 years on, with only the memory of their raped 10 years old daughter, are at it and anyone associated with the deeds, even if the perpetrators have long ago been peeled, are still after associates, even if only just in propaganda associates.
This is not trolling. Maybe you shouldn't be so flippant about making accusations like that.
> In a past life I had contact with teams returning from Kossovo having handled mass graves there, identifying corpses, getting information to investigators, these ones then talking with families, piecing through what exactly happened. Some of the affected persons, still alive 30 years on, with only the memory of their raped 10 years old daughter, are at it and anyone associated with the deeds, even if the perpetrators have long ago been peeled, are still after associates, even if only just in propaganda associates.
I too, did "peace enforcement" in the Balkans as a uniformed member of the US military in a NATO unit.
Who were the allies of NATO in executing the peace enforcement? Russians. How quickly people forget this, in the "Rah Rah Rah EvilRussianz" media blitz.
However, you are comparing genocidal conflicts in the Balkans, with a war that is essentially a defensive move by the Russians to prevent encroachment into their sphere of influence & sphere of control.
Wars are brutal, horrible things.
NATO should not be in the business of fomenting revolutions, "Color Revolutions", Regional destabilization, or encroaching on regional powers turf where we have no clear national interest. And no, we hate Putin is not a National Interest. NATO has been supporting the Western Ukrainians in Kiev, and assisting the coup, in attacking the Eastern Ukrainians for a number of years now. We should not be in that business.
We would not tolerate Mexico or Canada becoming a Chinese military base, any more than we did missiles in Cuba [1]
Countries only have "sphere of influence and control" as much as they are able to influence and control. The invasion demonstrated both lack of influence, and lack of control.
No NATO missiles were being deployed in Kharkiv that I know, so this was not Cuba.
Clearly now my Kharkiv friends want nothing but...
If we're lucky we survive the escalation, I call it 50/50 at this point, got the iodine.
TOW, Stinger, Javelin, and Switchblade Drone/Missiles are all capable of taking out large commercial airplanes.
TOW 2 are specifically designed to take out buildings in the Bunker Buster variants. Simultaneous release of multiple TOW2s could be used to defeat large industrial buildings, or skyscrapers.
Slovakia has sent an S300 to Ukraine, and those are pretty hefty sized missiles too.
Are you drawing the limit on short range tactical missiles, intermediate range tactical missiles, Cruise Missiles, ICBMs, or Nuclear ICBMs, since we have already established NATO is supplying a number of missile types to Eastern Ukraine?
Super interesting discussion, so sorry I cannot really continue it much!
You mentionned Cuba, so I mentionned Cuba, false equivalence yada yada...
Still, so far the Buk that fools used to down the Malaysia MH17 is the only actual case we're talking about: misguided killings inside the aforementioned "sphere of control", more like sphere of complete corrupt incompetence if you ask me.
All the rest you list is the result of the unprovoked aggression.
So far only Israeli airlines have installed flare decoy systems on commercial transport aircrafts, there are technical issues with downing one of those with what you list though. Let us both hope your theories do not have to get tested.
> Still, so far the Buk that fools used to down the Malaysia MH17 is the only actual case we're talking about: misguided killings inside the aforementioned "sphere of control", more like sphere of complete corrupt incompetence if you ask me.
This is what western media would have you believe.
However, the Western Ukrainians have been attacking the Eastern Ukrainians for half a decade now, bombing civilians much of the time.
Similar to what happened with the Buk, is the new Kramatorsk situation.
However, we know that Russians claim to be only using Iskandar missiles these days. Iskandars are more powerful, more accurate, and significantly longer range.
Russians fired a Tochka-U at an exercise in '22, and there is alleged film of a Russian unit having a Tochka-U. Whereas, the Tochka-U is the only Ukrainian missile of the type, as they do not have access to Iskandars
What landed at the Kramatorsk train station was clearly a Tochka-U.
So, I guess it is in the realm of possibility that it was either side.
I think the Kiev Regime has more to gain from the murder of innocent civilians, than does the Moscow Regime, and I would suspect this to be a false flag operation by Western Ukrainians. Keep in mind, some of the best evidence of warcrimes that has come out thus far, is the Western Ukrainian Soliders (AFU) shooting Russian POWs in the legs [1], executing them via rifles [2], outright murdering them via knives to the face/eyes [3]
Western Ukrainian tactics appear to be adopting the usual terrorist technique of utilizing schools, churches, and hospitals. They are also preventing non-combatant foreigners from leaving Ukraine as an attempted pressure tactic to push governments to support them, forcing both Indians and Africans to stay in a warzone [4]
Given that the Moscow Regime (Russians) and their allies in the DPR [5] and LPR [6] (Eastern Ukrainians) have overwhelming firepower at this point, heavy artillery, and are regularly lobbing tactical missiles, cruise missiles, and airstrikes onto the AFU, they have overwhelming advantage already.
I should also mention that the AFU has been attacking the civilian populations in the territory of the LPR & DPR for more than 5 years now, but this news gets little exposure in Western Media [7] Because, we don't want to admit we are in bed with Ukrainian Nazis like Right Sektor and The Azov Battalion [8]
Remember, Ukrainian Democracy was overthrown in a violent coup (color revolution) with our support; it was the US State Department that declared who would seize control of Ukraine post-coup [9]
This war simmered, starting with 50 years of broken promises about the Eastern border of NATO.
The opening salvo where it went hot was the coup in Kiev that deposed an elected leader.
> and stops the moment they retreat from Ukrainian territory
Nope.
The Eastern Ukrainians, aka, The LPR and DPR, have been shelled by the Western Ukrainians for the last 6 years or so. They don't want to be controlled by Kiev anymore. Hence their full names.
> Am guessing they'd rather be with Russia, than the "countrymen" that have been shooting them, and bombing them.
I'm pretty sure most of them would prefer to be in Ukraine now. The Russians have been pressing men 18-64 into military service with shitty equipment, to serve as cannon fodder. The Russian's have done more to solidify Ukrainian national identity by invading their country than anything the Ukrainians could've done on their own.
> This war simmered, starting with 50 years of broken promises about the Eastern border of NATO.
The mythical promises (which, even if the stories about them were completely true, were neither made to Russia nor made in a form that any future government beyond the one they were made to had any reasonable basis to rely on nor made in a form that could be reasonably held against any future leadership beyond the actual individuals that made them) happened in 1989-1990. So, even ignoring that the only entity that could arguably rely on them was gone within two years and the only people they could be held against were out of power within three, it's not possible for there to have been 50 years of them. Also, Russia was actively seeking eastward expansion of NATO (specifically, to include Russia) starting before celebrations of its declaration of independence from and leading role in destroying the USSR had quieted down in 1991, and for nearly a decade afterward.
> The Eastern Ukrainians, aka, The LPR and DPR, have been shelled by the Western Ukrainians for the last 6 years or so
That's not accurate.
The Russia puppet pseudo-states, created through force of Russian sponsored Nazi mercenaries like Wagner and Nazi militias like Sparta (which individually is much larger than Azov that Russia likes to talk about so much, which was part of the response against their Russia-instigated aggression), have held, since 2014, a small fraction of their claimed territory in Eastern Ukraine and been shelling Eastern Ukrainians outside of the territory they hold and abusing those opposed to Russian aggression within it for the last six years. That's expanded, as well as the scale of abuse, with Russia’s open direct invasion recently.
>The Russia puppet pseudo-states, created through force of Russian sponsored Nazi mercenaries like Wagner and Nazi militias like Sparta (which individually is much larger than Azov that Russia likes to talk about so much, which was part of the response against their Russia-instigated aggression)
Please provide some evidence that Wagner, the Russian military company similar to Blackwater, is a group of Nazis. As the documentary evidence for Right Sektor and the Azov Battalions being Nazi/Fascistic affiliated is already overwhelming, and far predates the recent invasion of Russian Forces, as documented by Vice News, and several other western media sources.
Would like to see some evidence of the same about Sparta too, if such a thing exists.
Please be careful: any person is owed human rights, any person is innocent until proven guilty, any cornered beast is more dangerous than one that knows it has still a chance of redemption.
>any person is owed human rights, any person is innocent until proven guilty
i completely agree. According to Geneva convention a person not covered by POW status should go through the criminal system of the place. My point is that Russians forces in Ukraine aren't protected as POW, and thus they are subject to criminal prosecution. And if it were up to me they would be put on criminal trial for those war crimes and crimes against humanity.
>any cornered beast is more dangerous than one that knows it has still a chance of redemption.
Not than it comes to a Nazism beast. It can't become more dangerous than it already is, and there is no chance of redemption. That is why we had 1945 in Berlin. And i don't see any way other than similar scenario of cornering and squashing the Russian Nazism all the way in Moscow.
> My point is that Russians forces in Ukraine aren't protected as POW, and thus they are subject to criminal prosecution
They carry arms openly, and have a uniform as part of a country's armed forces. They have military ID cards which identify them, they work for superior officers, and they conduct operations.
You might want to revisit the actual text of the different versions of the Geneva Conventions, because your inaccurate text begs correction.
Here is a copy-paste from The International Red Cross
> (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
> (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
> (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
> (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
> (c) that of carrying arms openly;
> (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
> (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a Government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
> (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civil members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany.
> (5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions in international law.
> (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
As someone with some familiarization with the Law of War, I'd say both Ukrainian combatants in the AFU, and the Russian Forces and their allies in the Russian Army, and DPR, and LPR, are all armed forces that are party to a conflict and deserving of protection.
You always want to err on the side of granting protections, for legal protection, and also, to prevent you yourself from committing war crimes, becoming a war criminal...
POW status doesn't shield from prosecution for war crimes and crimes against humanity. So, imagine what you come up upon enemy soldiers who have committed a war crime. Even if these soldiers are otherwise eligible for POW status, you aren't going to give them it, and instead you're going to arrest and put these soldiers into the war crimes prosecution/punishment process.
As genocide and ethnic cleansing are the officially declared major goals of the war, anybody participating in any way on Russian side is immediately guilty, just by mere fact of participation in the war, of those crimes. As a result any Russian soldier is subject to criminal prosecution the moment they captured.
Some situations seem to be even more straightforward:
In the video the Ukrainians say "marauders" about those Russians, and the Russian armored carrier in the video has various civilian property loaded on it (and the marauding by Russians is very widespread). Officially marauding in Ukraine right now is a war crime punishable by prison, while on practice in various regions the regional administration has declared it as punishable by shooting on the spot.
31 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 80.3 ms ] threadhttps://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/reader-center/russia-syri...
That is a video of Russians in Bucha just shooting at anything that moves on the street : https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-drone-footage-appears...
that's a pretty big correction.
Well only geographically. It's still Russian military radio traffic discussing murders of civilians, is it not? Just maybe not in Bucha.
Even if you wanted to quibble over the meaning of words, the article is very clear about it:
> radio traffic from Russian military personnel in the region north of Kyiv, where Bucha is located
This is not trolling. Maybe you shouldn't be so flippant about making accusations like that.
> In a past life I had contact with teams returning from Kossovo having handled mass graves there, identifying corpses, getting information to investigators, these ones then talking with families, piecing through what exactly happened. Some of the affected persons, still alive 30 years on, with only the memory of their raped 10 years old daughter, are at it and anyone associated with the deeds, even if the perpetrators have long ago been peeled, are still after associates, even if only just in propaganda associates.
I too, did "peace enforcement" in the Balkans as a uniformed member of the US military in a NATO unit.
Who were the allies of NATO in executing the peace enforcement? Russians. How quickly people forget this, in the "Rah Rah Rah EvilRussianz" media blitz.
However, you are comparing genocidal conflicts in the Balkans, with a war that is essentially a defensive move by the Russians to prevent encroachment into their sphere of influence & sphere of control.
Wars are brutal, horrible things.
NATO should not be in the business of fomenting revolutions, "Color Revolutions", Regional destabilization, or encroaching on regional powers turf where we have no clear national interest. And no, we hate Putin is not a National Interest. NATO has been supporting the Western Ukrainians in Kiev, and assisting the coup, in attacking the Eastern Ukrainians for a number of years now. We should not be in that business.
We would not tolerate Mexico or Canada becoming a Chinese military base, any more than we did missiles in Cuba [1]
[1] https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/cuban-missile...
You must not be counting the thousands of TOW, Stinger, Javelin, and Switchblade Drone/Missiles that NATO is sending to Ukraine.
TOW 2 are specifically designed to take out buildings in the Bunker Buster variants. Simultaneous release of multiple TOW2s could be used to defeat large industrial buildings, or skyscrapers.
Slovakia has sent an S300 to Ukraine, and those are pretty hefty sized missiles too.
Are you drawing the limit on short range tactical missiles, intermediate range tactical missiles, Cruise Missiles, ICBMs, or Nuclear ICBMs, since we have already established NATO is supplying a number of missile types to Eastern Ukraine?
You mentionned Cuba, so I mentionned Cuba, false equivalence yada yada...
Still, so far the Buk that fools used to down the Malaysia MH17 is the only actual case we're talking about: misguided killings inside the aforementioned "sphere of control", more like sphere of complete corrupt incompetence if you ask me.
All the rest you list is the result of the unprovoked aggression.
So far only Israeli airlines have installed flare decoy systems on commercial transport aircrafts, there are technical issues with downing one of those with what you list though. Let us both hope your theories do not have to get tested.
This is what western media would have you believe.
However, the Western Ukrainians have been attacking the Eastern Ukrainians for half a decade now, bombing civilians much of the time.
Similar to what happened with the Buk, is the new Kramatorsk situation.
Western Media reports it as Russians killing Ukrainians https://nypost.com/2022/04/10/liz-cheney-says-ukraine-train-...
Russian Media reports it as Western Ukrainians killing Eastern Ukrainians https://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/151053-kramatorsk_ra...
However, we know that Russians claim to be only using Iskandar missiles these days. Iskandars are more powerful, more accurate, and significantly longer range.
An Iskandar is distinguishable via the tail fins https://www.defencetalk.com/military/photos/iskander.46333/f...
Tochka-U missiles don't have tail fins in the same position, as they are more centrally located https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPz-Oy6WYAQ07Ko?format=jpg&name=...
Russians fired a Tochka-U at an exercise in '22, and there is alleged film of a Russian unit having a Tochka-U. Whereas, the Tochka-U is the only Ukrainian missile of the type, as they do not have access to Iskandars
What landed at the Kramatorsk train station was clearly a Tochka-U.
So, I guess it is in the realm of possibility that it was either side.
No, it isn't. It doesn't affect the core finding at all.
Western Ukrainian tactics appear to be adopting the usual terrorist technique of utilizing schools, churches, and hospitals. They are also preventing non-combatant foreigners from leaving Ukraine as an attempted pressure tactic to push governments to support them, forcing both Indians and Africans to stay in a warzone [4]
Given that the Moscow Regime (Russians) and their allies in the DPR [5] and LPR [6] (Eastern Ukrainians) have overwhelming firepower at this point, heavy artillery, and are regularly lobbing tactical missiles, cruise missiles, and airstrikes onto the AFU, they have overwhelming advantage already.
I should also mention that the AFU has been attacking the civilian populations in the territory of the LPR & DPR for more than 5 years now, but this news gets little exposure in Western Media [7] Because, we don't want to admit we are in bed with Ukrainian Nazis like Right Sektor and The Azov Battalion [8]
Remember, Ukrainian Democracy was overthrown in a violent coup (color revolution) with our support; it was the US State Department that declared who would seize control of Ukraine post-coup [9]
[1] https://rumble.com/vzxxb3-ukrainian-soldiers-shoot-russian-p...
[2] https://rumble.com/v104l5t-ukrainians-kill-captured-russian-...
[3] https://rumble.com/vyyefx-ukrainian-azov-nazi-ruslan-mironok...
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-refu...
[5] https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_...
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhansk_People%27s_Republic
[7] https://rumble.com/vxf4m0-media-isnt-interested-in-zelenskyy...
[8] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYyy0aeWrnw
[9] https://rumble.com/vwvai7-2014-leaked-audio-from-victoria-nu...
Who is we ?
Anyways, remember: “You go to war with the Army you have -- not the Army you might wish you have”
This war started with the Russian invasion and stops the moment they retreat from Ukrainian territory
No.
This war simmered, starting with 50 years of broken promises about the Eastern border of NATO.
The opening salvo where it went hot was the coup in Kiev that deposed an elected leader.
> and stops the moment they retreat from Ukrainian territory
Nope.
The Eastern Ukrainians, aka, The LPR and DPR, have been shelled by the Western Ukrainians for the last 6 years or so. They don't want to be controlled by Kiev anymore. Hence their full names.
Donetsk People's Republic. Lugansk People's Republic.
Am guessing they'd rather be with Russia, than the "countrymen" that have been shooting them, and bombing them.
https://southfront.org/ukrainian-army-continues-massive-shel...
I'm pretty sure most of them would prefer to be in Ukraine now. The Russians have been pressing men 18-64 into military service with shitty equipment, to serve as cannon fodder. The Russian's have done more to solidify Ukrainian national identity by invading their country than anything the Ukrainians could've done on their own.
The mythical promises (which, even if the stories about them were completely true, were neither made to Russia nor made in a form that any future government beyond the one they were made to had any reasonable basis to rely on nor made in a form that could be reasonably held against any future leadership beyond the actual individuals that made them) happened in 1989-1990. So, even ignoring that the only entity that could arguably rely on them was gone within two years and the only people they could be held against were out of power within three, it's not possible for there to have been 50 years of them. Also, Russia was actively seeking eastward expansion of NATO (specifically, to include Russia) starting before celebrations of its declaration of independence from and leading role in destroying the USSR had quieted down in 1991, and for nearly a decade afterward.
> The Eastern Ukrainians, aka, The LPR and DPR, have been shelled by the Western Ukrainians for the last 6 years or so
That's not accurate.
The Russia puppet pseudo-states, created through force of Russian sponsored Nazi mercenaries like Wagner and Nazi militias like Sparta (which individually is much larger than Azov that Russia likes to talk about so much, which was part of the response against their Russia-instigated aggression), have held, since 2014, a small fraction of their claimed territory in Eastern Ukraine and been shelling Eastern Ukrainians outside of the territory they hold and abusing those opposed to Russian aggression within it for the last six years. That's expanded, as well as the scale of abuse, with Russia’s open direct invasion recently.
Please provide some evidence that Wagner, the Russian military company similar to Blackwater, is a group of Nazis. As the documentary evidence for Right Sektor and the Azov Battalions being Nazi/Fascistic affiliated is already overwhelming, and far predates the recent invasion of Russian Forces, as documented by Vice News, and several other western media sources.
Would like to see some evidence of the same about Sparta too, if such a thing exists.
i completely agree. According to Geneva convention a person not covered by POW status should go through the criminal system of the place. My point is that Russians forces in Ukraine aren't protected as POW, and thus they are subject to criminal prosecution. And if it were up to me they would be put on criminal trial for those war crimes and crimes against humanity.
>any cornered beast is more dangerous than one that knows it has still a chance of redemption.
Not than it comes to a Nazism beast. It can't become more dangerous than it already is, and there is no chance of redemption. That is why we had 1945 in Berlin. And i don't see any way other than similar scenario of cornering and squashing the Russian Nazism all the way in Moscow.
They carry arms openly, and have a uniform as part of a country's armed forces. They have military ID cards which identify them, they work for superior officers, and they conduct operations.
You might want to revisit the actual text of the different versions of the Geneva Conventions, because your inaccurate text begs correction.
Here is a copy-paste from The International Red Cross
> (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
> (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
> (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
> (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
> (c) that of carrying arms openly;
> (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
> (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a Government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
> (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civil members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany.
> (5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions in international law.
> (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
As someone with some familiarization with the Law of War, I'd say both Ukrainian combatants in the AFU, and the Russian Forces and their allies in the Russian Army, and DPR, and LPR, are all armed forces that are party to a conflict and deserving of protection.
You always want to err on the side of granting protections, for legal protection, and also, to prevent you yourself from committing war crimes, becoming a war criminal...
As genocide and ethnic cleansing are the officially declared major goals of the war, anybody participating in any way on Russian side is immediately guilty, just by mere fact of participation in the war, of those crimes. As a result any Russian soldier is subject to criminal prosecution the moment they captured.
Some situations seem to be even more straightforward:
>[2] https://rumble.com/v104l5t-ukrainians-kill-captured-russian-...
In the video the Ukrainians say "marauders" about those Russians, and the Russian armored carrier in the video has various civilian property loaded on it (and the marauding by Russians is very widespread). Officially marauding in Ukraine right now is a war crime punishable by prison, while on practice in various regions the regional administration has declared it as punishable by shooting on the spot.