Ask HN: Have you had any real benefits from apps like Headspace, Fabulous, etc?
There are so many apps which promise scientific benefits like relief from stress, better habits, etc.
Unfortunately most of them are free for only 7 days or 10 days and followed with a steep cost. I'm okay paying if there are any real benefits but the reviews are really mixed on the play store.
So just wondering what you guys think? Has any such app has had real life benefits? What do you think?
101 comments
[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 190 ms ] thread[0]: There are books you can use as guides instead, or local meditation centers, or to start: every morning sit for 10 minutes with your back straight, eyes closed, and focus on the physical sensations of breathing. You’ll get distracted; when you notice, just begin focusing on the breath again.
The common recommendation, which I also now believe is correct, is that meditation will only work if you do it as close to daily as possible and the sessions must last pretty long, like 40-60 minutes. I found that when I managed this level of practice, I was actually developing the skills and getting somewhere with meditation. Doing 10 minutes guided meditation every once in a while when you feel stressed won't bring much. It's like trying to get fit, it won't happen if you just do a few pushups once in a while, you need a pretty strict routine.
So, like most good things in life, you really have to work for it. And that's not something that's easy to sell in app form.
Therapy doesn't "solve" anything by itself, you must see it as a tool to help you put your mind in a better position so that you can solve your problems. Lots of people see these as magical apps that will somehow magically make them better with no effort from their side and then proceed to get disappointed when this obviously doesn't happen.
So to answer your question:
- Will these apps provide "scientific benefits" (whatever that is supposed to be)? No.
- Will these apps assist your own effort of improving mental health? Yes, as long as you're committed to it and keep going.
Reminds me of the "Why are you trying to do this?" reply that is almost automatic on Stackoverflow, lol
You have to eat the food. You have to use the gym.
It's a bit like arguing about the best gym to join. People waste months answering that question. The answer is "whichever one you will actually use".
One part of mediation is resisting the temptation to try and solve anything. You improve being able to notice each thought, acknowledge in a non-judgemental way and then allow it to continue moving through the station. The next thought will be arriving shortly. Mind the gap please.
I love the headspace story and the founder Andy Puddicombe. His mission is a real one of literally "spreading awareness" to everyone.
I've had a subscription to headspace for over 3 years now(corporate discount) and used it tons when I first started to learn about meditation. However 3 years wiser, I realize that I don't need a guide and do it all myself. I forgot I was subscribed until I saw this!
Much like exercise if you don't do it everyday, you get bored of it quickly. I really enjoyed the NBA series on headspace that I would use to kick-ass at work for awhile before I finished it and nothing else seemed interesting.
I also used their sleepcasts for awhile when battling insomnia. I enjoyed them but then found myself able to fall asleep naturally because I changed my habits to work out more and would be physical tired by the end of the night.
All in all, I think headspace can truly change your life. It just depends on how you decide to go about it. Meditation, awareness, mindfulness, and many of the skills it teaches are some of the most important skills to be getting accustomed to throughout one's life. I don't think I'll ever stop meditating or practicing in my life, but I am at the point where I no longer need these apps after 3 years.
You’re right about his story. His book is great, simply for the first quarter where he tells how he got where he is.
That said, the book is simply presented and somewhat repetitive, so the material doesn’t exactly stand up to repeated listens much. But it’s still fun :)
The Headspace Guide to Mindfulness & Meditation audiobook by Andy Puddicombe https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/andy-puddicombe/the-headsp... (can be found on Audible, Kobo, Audiobooks.com etc.)
Has a few guided meditations at the end of the audiobook, though you might also get some value from the various ones posted for free by Headspace on their social media: https://youtube.com/c/headspace
I know people who have really benefited from mindful meditation as a means to manage stress though so I don't doubt it does help some people. Possibly better for the types of stress and anxiety that builds up over time from a mixture of sources than solely from one obvious cause like in my case.
While you can get some benefits from simply practicing meditation, it can feel a bit aimless. What I like about Waking Up is the conversations with experienced meditators where they talk about the practice itself. These serve as a guide for my own practice. There's a whole section that consists of conversations on the theory behind meditation. As an HN type I eat these up.
I also don't think you can get the full benefit of a meditation practice without considering the nature of mind and consciousness. The app includes several discussions on this topic as well and it helped to inform my practice substantially.
[0]https://wakingup.com/
Isn’t that… the point of meditation?
Meditation isn't about closing your eyes and doing nothing. It takes effort, at least until you are proficient.
It's exactly why I never managed to make a habit out of it.
> Isn’t that… the point of meditation?
Absolutely not! The secularization of meditation in the west has completely divorced meditation from it's original purpose (in the Buddhist context). Meditation is a complete mental training program. Monks did not just sit there on a cushion; they worked with teachers, reflected on ideas, and gained insights.
There is a mistaken view that meditation is just sitting there, but meditation is an active practice that includes eating, walking, cleaning, etc.
Being divorced from tradition is what makes it aimless and pointless.
I am not personally against secularization, but if we are going to extract ideas from these traditions, we should honor them and make them work effectively in our modern lives.
Again, isn’t aimlessness the point of Buddhism? Taming and mastering the ‘I’ and it’s worldly attachments like aiming for things?
It is this arbitrary separation of sitting meditation from other practices such as walking and work that is exactly the problem with the modern appropriation of meditation.
FYI:
Meditation originated in Hinduism where the original purpose was connection with God (as part of Yoga, the physical yoga is more recent). The earliest records of meditation can be found in Upanishads. Originally, meditation was highly directed.
Buddhism removed the God aspect. And a few thousand years later, the West has secularized it even more.
One part of this secularization has been to ignore the origins of meditation.
That is why I bracketed it: in the Buddhist context. The Buddha came out of the Vedic tradition (ancient Hinduism) so I agree that meditation practice is sourced from there. I cannot speak to what other Gurus were doing at that era.
Believe it or not there are deities (devas) in Buddhist Cosmology. The deity Brahma appears in much of early Buddhist scripture. Gods were not eliminated, but reduced in terms of importance.
In the West the “sit and do nothing practice” was extracted from the Shikantaza practice of the Zen tradition.
The problem is Zen includes all practice as part of meditative practice. There is no separation. This is not exclusive to Zen either. It is how Buddhism has been practiced in monasteries for over two thousand years.
It so happens that there's something useful in the roots of meditation's legacy that can be extracted from the religious—as many of us would consider it—chaff.
Like taking ayahuasca without a shaman to confront problems in your life. Turns out you don't need a shaman's spiritual rituals to benefit from the DMT experience.
I'll admit that until I tried it, I thought meditating was either just sitting there trying there trying to think no thoughts or it had some sort of religious connection that just wasn't for me. After using it for months, I realized it's a way to be present, acknowledge that thoughts are things that merely arise, and most of all, things that you can discard instead of letting them impact you.
I started trying it when he said that he'll do it for 30 seconds just standing in line at Starbucks if he feels some sort of anxiety, or before he goes on stage. That kind of thing felt practical to me, so I gave it a go. I've used the app on and off for over a year, often starting from the first guided session from scratch and working back through them when I lose the habit.
I don't do the guided sessions anymore, mostly listen to the interviews in the app that you point out. But I meditate in the morning almost every day now, and right after, I try to think of the person I want to be, and then I start my day. I got that tip from Eben Pagan (of David DeAngelo dating advice fame) after realizing I usually just wake up and am the person that I feel like, like sometimes I'd wake up and feel low confidence, and I would kinda be a low confidence person all day. Meanwhile, all I had to do was simply decide to take another path.
I dismissed all of this kind of stuff as BS for most of my life. I was 30 when I finally tried Waking Up and I finally see that there's something practical behind these things.
To answer OP’s question: the benefits I’ve found are to start to recognize the constant internal (mostly critical) monologue as just another appearance in consciousness in the same way sight and sound are. When I have a really good meditation session this monologue just kind of dissolves and I’m left feeling very peaceful.
Would love to hear from any other experienced meditators on what they found their next steps to be at this stage.
[0] https://www.uclahealth.org/marc/mindful-meditations
Absolutely love it - well worth the money for me.
For a lot of people, these apps are an excuse to go and poster themselves as "spiritually aligned", "woke" and all kinds of other nonsense. And yet they fail to sit down with themselves, completely unplugged, and find that moment of peace that will come once the mind slows down.
Those scientific benefits can be achieved without apps. They just throw that stuff in your face to make you pay them money for a service that doesn't need paying for. Seriously.
People also come to meditation for different reasons. Some want to chill out, others want to be more present in every day life.
I assume you’re well practiced so you’ll know that ultimately apps aren’t what you need for “real” meditation. I think they’re a good starting point for many though.
It's been a nice positive in my life :)
I say “learning” but the book also describes that there’s no rush to get anywhere in meditation/mindfulness.
apps won't replace a therapist
i'm saying this as a paying Headspace user :D
Fwiw, the benefit I've found is just in a more general mindfulness, and meditation can be part of that. Notice yourself tensing or clenching your jaw, and make a conscious effort to reduce that. Pay attention when something feels good, or hurts to think about. It has given me some modicum of clarity and engagement I didn't before.