Ask HN: Are you lost / confused / stuck? I can try to help
And surprisingly (or not surprisingly), the conventional methods like self-help advice or even therapy sometimes don't seem to help. I know this feeling, and had to explore around to find the tools and perspectives that finally made a difference.
Now I don't mean any kind of mystic / uber-spiritual stuff. I'm a pretty realistic guy; I just think a lot and feel a lot and had to go through a lot of inner work / personal development to get to where I am today. (If you want an idea what kind of person I am in real life, my personal instagram is https://www.instagram.com/samhuang.sh/ Feel free to read my posts to get a sense of my style and my experiences.)
To get to my point, I want to start some kind of service/platform where people can come to talk things through and have a sustained conversation about their experience of feeling lost, confused, stuck. (I won't be charging for this ever, because I don't believe in that. Though I'll probably have donations set up, but that's technicalities.)
I've been giving some people at work some advice and perspectives, and they were positively surprised by the things I talked about and it seemed to help them at least get out of the cloud of confusion. I'm not trained with any formal credentials, but somehow I've developed enough wisdom in this area to have useful things to say.
The problem is, because I don't quite know where my "strengths" and "expertise" are yet, I don't wanna just start some Substack and make a fool out of myself pretending to be some guru when I don't know what I'm doing yet.
So here in this thread, I'm hoping to invite people who are struggling with feeling lost, confused, stuck, for whatever reason, to come and seek help. And I'll do my best to see if I can offer perspectives that may be useful. It'll be a place where we can go deeper into some issues and have a sustained conversation about it all. And it would also be tremendously helpful to me to get some feedback on whether it did or did not help.
Much love, Sam
EDIT: For the record, so far the type of advice that seemed to resonate with people has been regarding relationships, inter-personal dynamics, family conflict, parenting, friendships, etc. A lot of times, our problems with the self stems from problems in our relationships, and vice versa.
84 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 153 ms ] threadGet trained with some.
There is a massively growing demand for therapists. World events and changing culture are creating the conditions for widespread personal crises. This has a big effect on the economy and is really an underlying root cause problem for many other visible socio-economic problems. Science now strongly backs modern psychotherapeutic practice, and it can be a rewarding career.
Most (good) training is the usual 3-5 year programme involving psychology, reflective practice, clinical work, self-therapy, clinical supervision. You can choose amongst a range of different "schools" (cognitive, behavioural, attachment...) which are increasingly combined and regulated by the same bodies.
It;s also hard work to be a professional. For the good programmes selection is actually tough. Would you be able to help people traumatised by witnessing horror? Rape victims? Or neurotic, obsessive patients who break boundaries and call you at 3am? Can you keep absolute compartmentalised discretion on par with doing intelligence work?
Good luck.
My experience has been that, it's the in-between severity that seems to lack good resources. The stuff that self-help books try to address and fail miserably at. The struggles people have that are unsettling, but not serious enough to seek therapy. My whole life is living in this middle place, so it took a long time to figure out what to do or where to go for help.
Yes good point, this is an issue with so many services. It's often people in the grey area, falling between the cracks, that get the worst deal - too well to seek help, too messed up to function properly.
(I don't want to derail your thread but I think much is down to lack of simple human contact/friendship caused by digital intermediation.)
You may be on to something with a sort of "buddy system" for hackers floundering under the stress of the current industry.
I didn't mean to put you off seriously looking at training. Just being real. The fact that you reach out already suggests you have the foundation.
> It's often people in the grey area, falling between the cracks, that get the worst deal - too well to seek help, too messed up to function properly.
Couldn't have described it better!
No. You're definitely wrong about that.
I think you got a bad deal and saw the wrong side of it, and for sure there are bad therapists around. That's why I pushed the formal training thing a bit.
> I don't buy that therapists are good at actually solving people's problems.
You're right. It's a cliche, but they help people who want to change solve their own problems. There aren't "therapists in general" just individual ones. Most all of them are the wrong one for you.
> whatever zeitgeist feel good advice was common on Instagram
That's bad.
If you ever try again shop around mercilessly. Any real therapist will give you a free initial meeting to see if the relationship is going to work. Totally walk out and say "thanks but no" until it feels like something is going on... what that feeling may be is that you hate this person for touching a nerve, or something, but it will be emotional.
> encourage you to sink deeper into whatever problems you have and not address the root cause.
If you can articulate what you think the root cause is you're already ahead. Sometimes that's months of work to discover. The root cause can bring up really shitty stuff that makes you want to quit. And what you think the root cause is might not be the root. Therapy is not just 5Y analysis. Be prepared to find that some major code needs rewriting.
> I imagine the majority of therapists are like this
As I said the majority of therapists are the wrong one for you. The usual distribution. You're probably smart enough to know the bell-curve already - some shit, some brilliant, many that are not for you... a few that are. Good luck.
I had a startup idea — for people in need of such help helping and motivating each other — noticing that I can solve rather complex problems of others while being a prize moron within my own code block.
Didn't follow through due to d.
My advice to you is:
1. Don't be discouraged if this dies in 'New', it'll go off when it's ready.
2. Always condense your pitches — to nontrivial taglines, then expand with clear tag:reason for the busier people.
3. Be a tad more self-confident. Not in your guru skills — that's bad manners — but in the idea itself. All gurus are shit, except this one: https://youtu.be/8An2SxNFvmU
An idea for an app — 'Big D': Connects people with diarrhea — so they can know someone truly understands their pain.
Unless this timeline already has one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rerBnAKPn0
Besides my own issues, I simply found too many holes in my original idea — where this idyllic utopia could go wrong.
I still keep the idea on the heap — currently evaluating an idea of professionally supervised chat groups. But I'd be glad if someone steals the idea before I find every way it could lead to the extinction of koalas and collapse of the Hilbert space.
However, this is a forum associated with a startup funding institution, so it's not that strange to me there would be that bias here.
It might sound simplistic, but if I were starting a community like that, I’d start with a WordPress blog or forum; maybe BBpress. I think a clean posting/interacting experience, free from the crap/shadiness of social media, is pretty important given the nature of what would be discussed. Blogs have a more personal, small-community feel that I see less and less of these days (and subscribing via RSS would be nice too).
Personally, I don’t know how much I have to discuss right now, since my own issues—primarily long-term burnout, disillusionment with my industry—are probably not addressable via anything short of a job/career shift, but I’d definitely be interested in seeing your ideas, and what’s discussed.
What I've noticed is that, sometimes our struggles in the "external" world stem from un-resolved issues with our inner world or our close relationships. Not assuming that's the case for you, but just a general observation.
:)
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You have a great eye for photographic composition. Keep that up, Sam.
EDIT: Re my photos, haha thank you!!
If therapy isn't helping it's generally a matter of a specific therapist who may not be working for you, but psychology is something for which people have studied and trained for years at. The human mind is a complex thing, and being professionally unprepared to deal with people's issues you are potentially at risk of causing harm.
There are already online services like betterhelp.com if people need a professional to talk, and it doesn't have to be something heavy, it could be just about the normal hardships of going through life, family, friendships, love, work, etc.
However, from what I've observed, there seems to be a significant lack of actually helpful support and resources for people who fall into these two categories:
1) People who think their problems aren't serious enough to seek therapy
2) People who have seen therapy but haven't gotten much success from it
I'm sorry if my big intro wasn't clear enough and gave the wrong impression. I haven't figured out my elevator pitch yet and that's exactly why I'm here testing things out.
I still think that putting yourself out there to lend an ear to strangers is irresponsible. Because this is not about someone who you've come across in your life and you have a talk and maybe give some advice, you'd be actively encouraging people to talk to you and that's the irresponsible part. Your intentions may be good, but this is not the right way to go about it.
I would highly advise that you at least be open to the option of undergoing some actual training.
i think what you want to do is essentially what i would consider being a good but also knowledgeable friend. a good friend tries to help where they can, but not all friends understand what help a person actually needs. for many situations having a good friend is enough, but in some situations the best thing a good friend can do is to say that it's time to seek professional help.
and maybe they already know that they need professional help but don't know how or where to get it. so you can be an intermediary where people can get support for smaller things or be pointed in the right direction if there are serious issues to tackle.
I believe billing it as a "Everything else not working? Give us a try!", instead of a first line of support, could also structure the liability in a fair way.
...I even have a couple killer ideas for the name of the non-profit!
Or is this something different?
If I understand what you're imagining, there are already subreddits for every variety of that. In the old days there was alt.angst on usenet, but it is likely defunct or taken over with spam by now. There are or were all kinds of other web venues as well, of course.
Nice idea though, I definitely think it can be immensely helpful to have someone listen and avoid parroting all the typical stuff, offering unconventional perspective or offering unconventional phrasing is worth 1000x more.
I was thinking exactly that, but didn't want to get mixed in with more mystic / uber-spiritual advice. No offence to people who follow those, it's just not accurately what I'm offering.
> Can't have relationship problems if you have no relationships. /s
The lack of relationships is a relationship problem. ;)
In general, therapy is designed to help people who are suffering from mental health and emotional wellness issues. The goal is help these people to baseline. Coaching assumes a baseline level of mental health and emotional wellness, and is designed to move people towards some measurable goal. Advice giving is not a part of either of these professions for good reason.
Consultants and mentors are related professions that ARE about advice-giving. These are wonderful as well, just different.
Also, many kudos for putting yourself out there!! There are tons of people who need and are looking for help.
source: am a coach trained by an ICF (International Coaching Federation) accredited program.
My vision is to provide something very low-barrier, both in cost and accessibility in general. It'll be something I provide for free, online, and can be instrumental in helping someone who's lost to at least get a sense of where to look. Something like that. :)
I run a self-compassion meetup group and it’s been a wonderful platform to create an online space for sharing emotional support together, and free for members (I pay the meetup organiser fee).
It feels rewarding and meaningful to offer support out of love, not money. Just humans being caring to each other. :)
We get people from all around the world, often without webcams so it’s like a multi-person phone call, which helps it feel more comfortable (especially when sharing vulnerable emotions).
Whichever path you choose, I wish you luck with your journey.
I recently proposed an idea in a subreddit (for enneagram 9s) to see if people were interested in starting a peer-support group over zoom, webcam optional.
I don't think I'll be able to execute it as my own personal life is pretty busy, but the folks there were really enthusiastic about the idea.
So yeah your online meet up thing, that's super cool that it works!
I wouldn't mind chatting more about it if you're interested in sharing. My email's in my profile. :)
Maybe tell me more about your personal life. Do you live alone? Have a romantic relationship? How's your relationship with your parents? Or maybe, how do people at work see you?
Which platform do you think I should use for this?
I'm currently thinking Substack, since it has a pretty good commenting system, and many people are already familiar with it. I can host like a weekly/bi-weekly session for people to just tell me things and I get back to them.
It'll also make it easier for people to support financially if they already do that (optional donation of course). I also plan on having a Patreon as another avenue for this.
What do you folks think?
My single post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27739957) details where I was 9 months ago, and things have only degraded from there. I did indeed quit my job (which was the correct decision), but never received any decent help (not for lack of trying). I've gone through many doctors and 13-15 different anti-/depressant/anxiety/ + sleep medications with no help. I recently started therapy, but I'm only 2 sessions in and I'm not allowed to meet more than 2x a month (I'm not a "health risk").
I'm at a point where I'm completely demotivated day to day. I still dream of projects and startups, and even start working on stuff on occasion, but my ability to code is basically gone. It's like severe writers block, where I can't even find the most basic of solutions without staring and struggling for hours. I struggle with simultaneously not wanting to do anything, and restlessness and resentment at myself for doing nothing. I don't know how to break out of this cycle.
While I used to have a whole shpiel I would give people I mostly just point them to this document now: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/peer-review-request-de...
I would perhaps add or reframe a few items for you:
1. Therapy less than once a week has a hard time sticking, I would search for therapy more aggressively (and shop around for a good one, it sounds like you can probably afford it).
2. I and many others have found it useful to think of humans as slightly complex houseplants :). You need to be watered, fed, see the sunshine, etc. I check in on a daily basis with myself about how I'm eating, drinking, and exercising, sleeping well, whether I've been outside, and whether I've talked with a friend (if you don't have friends, make that a priority). I make sure to spend time being with friends at least once a week.
1. Yea. It was hard to find someone with availability period, and our insurance isn't very good. You're probably right that I should just pay out of pocket, but I'm honestly pretty convinced that I have an actual brain chemical issue, so I'm dubious of the benefits to therapy
2. I think I do a decent enough job at this. I don't necessarily eat the best food, but at least I'm eating some fruits and vegetables and not Doritos all of the time. I don't really exercise much, but at least I go on 30+ minute walks every other day or so. I probably sit in my chair to much, but I imagine most on HN do that...
What led you to getting better? How were you able to function in such suffering for 10 years? Not to turn it into talking about me again, but I'm increasingly worried that I've wasted a year and may waste many more to this nothingness, which is quite concerning. How do you look back on your 10 years and say "it's OK, I needed to go through that/I'm happy I'm better now"?
I strongly recommend something more intensely cardiovascular for 20ish minutes a day (I go on runs). There's a lot of clinical evidence for aerobic exercise improving concentration and mood in a way just walking does not.
> How were you able to function in such suffering for 10 years?
I didn't function terribly well for that time period. I kept going mostly out of a desire to not hurt those I love. I was fortunate to have a supportive family and to be smart enough to coast through life while functioning at a massively reduced level.
> What led you to getting better?
I think some of it was just the maturation process that occurs between 20 and 30, but a few things stand out:
1. Really increasing the self-awareness of what I need to maintain my mood (the humans are complex houseplants bit). For example, if I'm not productive for a week I feel bad. If I'm tired I'm not productive, and thus I'm very pro-active about taking caffeine if I feel tired in the morning. This requires a lot of mindfulness and self evaluation, zen meditation can help here though I don't think it's required.
2. This point merges with (1) slightly but is worth breaking out, realizing the motion usually precedes emotion. When I'm feeling really bad it's often because I've failed to maintain the habits necessary for me to feel good for a while and usually it's going to take at least a week or two to work back to feeling good. As an addendum, any psychological tricks you can play on yourself that prompt the kind of action you know you need intellectually but can't bring yourself to do emotionally are gold. (I often tell myself I'm going to workout for 10 minutes to get myself up to 40-50 minute workouts).
3. I learned that while taking time to think about what makes you sad and unhappy is initially useful as you process your emotions, there comes a point where you are just wallowing in the misery. A depressed mind often gets caught in "loops" that are hard to break out of where you run through a negative line of thought over and over again. If you spend 60 minutes thinking about something wrong in your life that you've often thought of before and found no new insights, you've probably just made it a little harder to break out of your depression. Learning to short circuit these trains of thought really improved my mood.
4. As a personal thing, the realization that I was never going to be as happy as an adult as I was as a child and that that was actually ok (I was raised to believe being happy was all that mattered in life). I learned that feeling fulfilled was a good substitute for feeling happy and now feel life is worth living. It doesn't sound like this is a problem you have though.
> How do you look back on your 10 years and say "it's OK, I needed to go through that/I'm happy I'm better now"?
I don't. In retrospect with the right conversations I probably could have gotten out of the funk in 2-3 years. But going back to point 3 of the list I've learned there's not much point wallowing in it (I still do occasionally, I'm not perfect). So when I find my mind wandering to that thought I move it to something else.
Thank you very much for your perspective. You've given me several things to process. I definitely do get stuck in loops; they've almost become invasive thoughts. I don't care to think them, but they are there anyway, and they won't leave me alone.
I don't know how to feel fulfilled either, and I think happiness in some way stems from that as well.
HIIT is really hard to maintain motivation for imo, I've found light jogs or walking up hills is much easier to be consistent about. Many people I know do group classes. It's tough though, I'll grant you, good luck :)
> Thank you very much for your perspective. You've given me several things to process. I definitely do get stuck in loops; they've almost become invasive thoughts. I don't care to think them, but they are there anyway, and they won't leave me alone.
Yeah there's definitely a practice you need to build here. Zen meditation was very good for me in this regard. You've worked at FAANG so maybe you're in the bay area? There are a few good temples in the area, SF in particular (this is not trying to rope you into a religion btw, it should mostly be about quieting your mind).
> I don't know how to feel fulfilled either, and I think happiness in some way stems from that as well.
There's definitely a personal journey here, and everyone's different. I've found great fulfillment in mastery (mostly of software engineering, but other stuff as well) and in helping others. I've meet people who found fulfillment in one or neither of those things. Honestly, trope-y stuff about "finding your passion" is somewhat useful here as a guide to things you may want to try out (e.g. give woodworking or pottery a shot).
There's a thought here that's vitally important but is very hard to communicate well (and in a way that doesn't sound melodramatic). As simply as I can put it, the most important thing is that you keep moving forward. Getting stuck on a thought, or worrying about the time you're "wasting" is poison. Remembering that is a very hard thing when life doesn't feel terribly worth living, but it's the most important thing.
That said, it seems that you've hit a roadblock with regards to formal treatment (so far), so maybe sharing my perspective won't hurt.
I'm open to having a longer extended conversation about your situation to get a better understanding of the underlying issues. I read through a bit of your other post and can see that you're married. How's that going? Sometimes the closest relationships are the missing key to our personal problems. Not saying they caused your problems, not at all, but rather they can be an important step in helping you heal.
If you're open to having a longer conversation, my email is in my profile.
All the best, Sam
Sorry you've been feeling this way. Good luck!
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolutionary-Treatment...
Some people who popularized CBT before the 80s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Beck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Ellis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Dyer#Criticism
You can send an email. See past comments in profile.
To describe:
1. The writers block
2. Your ambitions, the projects and startups you dream of
3. Roles you took on in which you were the single point of failure
4. The first time you were burned out that happened earlier in life
5. What have you done about things, what worked, what did not work
6. Do you get bored when people talk gossip about a mutual friend, like new relationships started
I found my purpose at the intersection of my passions, talents and societal needs. Vedanta calls it four Purushartas, Japanese call it Ikagi. Basically you have to architect your own life.
Helpful pointers-
Act- try different things, learn, fail & try next, till you find your groove. No perfectionism & analysis paralysis.
Help yourself - No dependence on “life coaches “ or “therapists”. Guidance from family, friends & few day workshops, retreats, outings etc are ok.
Relationships - Can make or break you. Nurture those that care for you, help you and give you the space. Ones that drain, maintain your distance. Be open to blunt views from well wishers.
Hope this helps as this is a lonely road we all have to travel few times in our lives without any manuals. I think Victor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning & Bhagavad Gita - 2.47 & 18.47 are great pointers.
In closing don’t take life too seriously - have fun, make mistakes, travel, build bonds, serve, focus on others and stand for your values. Spiritual Trinity - Sat(Existence], Chit(Consciousness) & Ananda(Bliss). Good luck to all on this quest.
Currently i feel like a have the time and space to breath. I do have my occasional anxiety and depressed feelings with automatic thoughts, but they don't hold me down. But i must confess this calmness is strange experience to me because i fear relapse is just around the corner and everything about this calmness and the "logical thinking" i'm experiencing is a delusion.
I wrote some things at my web site about purpose in life (in profile, no ads or sales), whether one is religious or not. (If you want details and can't find them, you can email me--it is in the site footer.) It revolves around learning (personal growth in ability to serve one's family and others), and then service. There are important things to learn about the nature of life that also help.
One site that helps with the service part (ie volunteering) is justserve.org , which is free for individuals to participate and/or organizations who could use help, coordinated by location etc. And there are others like it. Unselfish service, helping others in good ways, brings a unique kind of enjoyment and real satisfaction.
I have learned for myself that God is real, cares, life has a purpose and extends before & after this mortality, questions have answers, each person including you is of infinite worth, and you never truly have to be alone. If we really try to make good choices, things can and will be very good, better than now. All real best wishes.
I think the plant analogy to mental health written here is great too