On the subject of “open source ideals” that you’ve mentioned in your post… tangentially related, I admit, but I’ve often noticed Russian use of Western liberal principles against the West itself, and then when the limit is reached and the West is forced to react - gleefully pointing out the West’s alleged hypocrisy. “Ahh, see - they muzzled our state sanctioned and financed unconstrained hate propaganda - so much for their famed freedom of speech!”.
Were the West to fail to react - that too would then be just as gleefully celebrated as how dumb, or naive, or lazy, or weak the West is.
Nothing is without limits and rational people understand that for us all to enjoy some of these ideals - it is necessary for all participants to make a good faith effort to uphold the founding principles.
I think Russia will suffer the consequences for decades. After the hostilities end - the litigation for war crimes, compensation for victims, reparations etc will begin. All under the climate of relentless sanctions and general pivot away from economic cooperation with Russia.
Expecting that meanwhile all this is happening - everything will remain the same in respect to services rendered by Github seems to be a bit tone deaf.
TLDR: to see this HN topic in context, one needs to read the news covering events in Ukraine. It’s not arbitrary, but an unsurprising consequence.
They are clearly not applying a blanket suspend all Russian accounts policy but rather one that attempts to address accounts with some kind of tie to sanctioned Russian companies. Github/Microsoft is a US based company and likely feels legally compelled to take these actions.
In fact they say this:
At the same time, we are taking action to support our platform and comply with the many government mandates you’ve likely read about in the context of this war. Our legal team examines such mandates thoroughly, and we are complying with export controls and trade regulations as they evolve. This includes implementing stringent new export controls that are aimed at severely restricting Russia’s access to technologies and other items it needs to sustain its aggressive military capabilities.
That's the end of it full stop. I'm sorry this inconvenienced some open source project but this is how things like an account suspension work. This is not the death of open source or the fault of Github.
Everyone knows where the real blame lies and rather than bitch about being inconvenienced by the response, the open source author should direct their anger there. Yes, "innocent" Russians are getting swept up by the response and that sucks.
>Everyone knows where the real blame lies and rather than bitch about being inconvenienced by the response, the open source author should direct their anger there. Yes, "innocent" Russians are getting swept up by the response and that sucks.
Do you mean “Ostracize Russian citizens individually as a proxy for ostracizing Putin?”
The overwhelming majority of Russian citizens support both the war and Putin. One need not take Russian polling's word for it. Even independent polling suggests Putin enjoys wide support and that only 23% of Russians oppose the war in Ukraine.
While there are certainly oligarchs (who have the most to loose) who have spoken out against the war, the "Z" branding is very popular in Russia with influencers and athletes brandishing it brazenly in their respective forums.
So yes, I recognize that not every Russian supports the war or Putin and that sucks for them. The reality is that the vast majority do. Pressure on Russians puts pressure on Putin and likely in a way that is more effective that hoping that the next impounded mega-yacht was actually his.
I am under the belief that "Z" was painted on military vehicles transiting to be part of the pre-war buildup on Russia's western border. "Zapad" being Russian for "West".
I don't know this to be true but it seems plausible to me. I'm sure there are plenty of co-opted uses/meanings of the "Z" now though.
"the "Z" branding is very popular in Russia with influencers and athletes brandishing it brazenly in their respective forums"
I only know of two times this has happened. The gymnast one and the rally one, which reportedly was a forced event. Every other athletic event that involves Russian athletes, like hundreds here including the hockey playoffs and figure skating, have not displayed the Z branding.
That's hardly the only option. They could simply lock the accounts in question without vanishing all data associated with them. This is how bans have historically worked. The Twitter approach of hiding everything is a counterproductive anomaly.
I think this needs to be highlighted more. Now github takes a lot of the blame while they are simply complying with the regulations. Maybe they should display something similar to what is shown when a warez website gets taken down by the authorities.
I also think they need to receive a warning before this is implemented, so that they have time to move over to another platform. I hope this was done.
Github basically gaslighting people into thinking that certain things (eg pull requests) never actually existed? It most certainly is the fault of github, they could have handled it way better.
No one is attempting to convince you that a PR never existed. This is just how Github account suspension works. If they allowed PR to stand it would hardly be viewed as legally ceasing interaction with sanctioned entities.
I put "scare quotes" as you call them to highlight the fact that the overwhelming majority of Russians support the war in Ukraine. Even in independent polling.
Putin and by proxy Russia, and I am kind of stunned that there would be any question about where the root cause lies.
You can't possibly be suggesting that US law should include some random provider that would allow individuals the affordance to obey as they felt comfy about.
Why would anybody else be at fault when Putin started a war that has already killed thousands of civilians and lead to the rape and/or torture of countless people?
" But when it came time to write the release notes, I noticed very bizarre behavior. Mysteriously, some pull requests were deleted. Poof. Gone. Then I realized that an entire contributor’s presence had disappeared "
Stalin was bad when he erased people from history.
Earlier this year, Putin gave a speech about why Russia was invading Ukraine that went on and on about history, but conspicuously, even flagrantly, omitted any mention of the Nazi-Soviet pact.
It's clear this is a very sore point for many Russians, and a lot of anti-US propaganda I'm beginning to think is overcompensation for feelings about this history, rather than a calculated, rational strategy of psychological manipulation.
Does that mean that they retroactively deleted edits made by those Russians too? So when said person fixed a bug, the bug is there again? Or the project does not compile anymore because the diff was too early in the history and mechanical removal broke the code even syntactically?
Or are the edits kept, but the commit log is gone?
I don't think they tampered with git in any way. If you work on a git repo through GitHub there is corresponding data in GitHub tools which is now gone. Many existing repos have commits that came from syncing/cloning/etc repos hosted elsewhere, and these commits should look like that.
I think people have been saying for a long time that Americans are especially responsible because the US is a democracy and not a dictatorship.
On the other hand, it is often claimed, and seems plausible to many, that the "military industrial complex" is kind of independent from elected representatives' control so citizens are helpless.
Both these themes seem to be pushed by fringe political groups and anti-US propaganda. They are synergistic. Demoralizing anyone is best done by convincing them that all possible choices are evil and nothing can be improved.
Regardless, the unseen power of this sort of discussion is how it maintains a false bubble where the US "reign of terror" is compared to this particular brutal war only.
I haven't been paying attention myself to how Russia has been suppressing revolts, destroying cities, expelling ethnic groups, and backing separatists through the years, but since 1991, there have been something like ten conflicts involving the Russian Federation.
Ten! Well, I had to look it up, but I was certain it was more than zero (plus Ukraine/Crimea). Chechnya alone accounts for two wars.
Everything that anyone ever tries to convince you of these days is an unstated premise. Since everyone's completely immune to assertions by people they don't like.
> Small clarification: the US is not a democracy. It is a democratic
I would say that
1) definitions are descriptive of how people use them, as much as they are prescriptive. Perhaps more so.
2) the term "a democracy" is usually used in the binary: Do this countries people choose their leaders or not? Are there voters who "are responsible for the actions of their government" or not? i.e. Democracy vs Autocracy.
The parent commenter makes it very clear that this distinction is what they were getting at:
> Americans are especially responsible because the US is a democracy and not a dictatorship.
To be sure, there are forms of democracy such as "direct democracy" or "democratic republic" and degrees of it, such as a "flawed democracy" or a "new democracy". But the idea that the USA does not fit into this general binary category - as the word "democracy" is used in common speech that you well understand - is not warranted.
They are and even more so. Every voter of either major politically party has blood on their hands and deserve death penalty for their crimes against humanity.
The whataboutism in general (not referring to your comment) regarding the Russian war is sort of ridiculous. It's like nobody remembers the outrage over US wars over the past 20 years. Like, most Germans I've met are very critical of the US and their foreign policy.
> The whataboutism regarding the Russian war is sort of ridiculous.
ridiculous and also predictable. The article on "whataboutism" has a whole section on USSR/ Russia, who frequently deploy this distraction: "whataboutism, a "sacred Russian tactic""
Maybe NATO shouldn't have pushed almost every neighbouring nation on their border to become a member state and the US shouldn't have funded biological "research" labs in Ukraine.
The former point should be turned: countries seek to join NATO (or not)
Your dear leader did the single act most likely to cause nations to want to join a mutual protection alliance: attacked a potential candidate.
Now Sweden and Finland will likely join this year.
Self determination.
Either a country has the sovereign right to make alliances as it sees fit or it’s not a country.
I cannot see any desire for suddenly appeasing Putins concerns about NATO springing from the bloodbath that he is inflicting on Ukraine right now for no good reason.
This notion of victim blame and provocation stops at the moment Vladimir Putin chose to invade Ukraine.
110% Putins fault all
The US does have "Biological Thread Reduction Programs" in Ukraine and has admitted to it. I hope you can see the obvious propaganda in the name (Greenwald goes into this concept in that video as well):
But there is no way they could verify that "Fact check" false in the middle of a war ... they lie all the time and are just making up stuff here as well:
So those are both sides right there. Personally, after reviewing all the evidence ... I side with Greenwald on this one. First, it's undeniable the US had biological research labs there. That's 100% factual. Now, you really believe they weren't working on any weapons? The government that gave us PRISM, NSA domestic spying and a president that has deep and direct corruption with Ukraine and China via his son Hunter ... It's more likely than not they were working on gain of function research there .. and that means weapons.
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[ 0.19 ms ] story [ 115 ms ] thread“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
Were the West to fail to react - that too would then be just as gleefully celebrated as how dumb, or naive, or lazy, or weak the West is.
Nothing is without limits and rational people understand that for us all to enjoy some of these ideals - it is necessary for all participants to make a good faith effort to uphold the founding principles.
I think Russia will suffer the consequences for decades. After the hostilities end - the litigation for war crimes, compensation for victims, reparations etc will begin. All under the climate of relentless sanctions and general pivot away from economic cooperation with Russia.
Expecting that meanwhile all this is happening - everything will remain the same in respect to services rendered by Github seems to be a bit tone deaf.
TLDR: to see this HN topic in context, one needs to read the news covering events in Ukraine. It’s not arbitrary, but an unsurprising consequence.
In fact they say this:
At the same time, we are taking action to support our platform and comply with the many government mandates you’ve likely read about in the context of this war. Our legal team examines such mandates thoroughly, and we are complying with export controls and trade regulations as they evolve. This includes implementing stringent new export controls that are aimed at severely restricting Russia’s access to technologies and other items it needs to sustain its aggressive military capabilities.
That's the end of it full stop. I'm sorry this inconvenienced some open source project but this is how things like an account suspension work. This is not the death of open source or the fault of Github.
Everyone knows where the real blame lies and rather than bitch about being inconvenienced by the response, the open source author should direct their anger there. Yes, "innocent" Russians are getting swept up by the response and that sucks.
Do you mean “Ostracize Russian citizens individually as a proxy for ostracizing Putin?”
While there are certainly oligarchs (who have the most to loose) who have spoken out against the war, the "Z" branding is very popular in Russia with influencers and athletes brandishing it brazenly in their respective forums.
So yes, I recognize that not every Russian supports the war or Putin and that sucks for them. The reality is that the vast majority do. Pressure on Russians puts pressure on Putin and likely in a way that is more effective that hoping that the next impounded mega-yacht was actually his.
I was thinking perhaps Russians are thinking of the opposition being zombies in much the same way as right-wingers talk about NPCs.
Or maybe it's just a coincidence.
I don't know this to be true but it seems plausible to me. I'm sure there are plenty of co-opted uses/meanings of the "Z" now though.
I only know of two times this has happened. The gymnast one and the rally one, which reportedly was a forced event. Every other athletic event that involves Russian athletes, like hundreds here including the hockey playoffs and figure skating, have not displayed the Z branding.
I also think they need to receive a warning before this is implemented, so that they have time to move over to another platform. I hope this was done.
Github basically gaslighting people into thinking that certain things (eg pull requests) never actually existed? It most certainly is the fault of github, they could have handled it way better.
Nice "scare quotes" at the end btw.
I put "scare quotes" as you call them to highlight the fact that the overwhelming majority of Russians support the war in Ukraine. Even in independent polling.
If anything, you're not really arguing against the article's claim; you're simply explaining why they cannot be trusted but can't help it.
"The guy whose real fault it is" or whatever is a bit of a red herring in this context.
I feel a claim that Github cannot be trusted because they obey the law seems to be disingenuous.
Honest question: do you mean Russia or do you mean the US for imposing sanctions that fail to give companies enough flexibility to do the right thing?
You can't possibly be suggesting that US law should include some random provider that would allow individuals the affordance to obey as they felt comfy about.
Stalin was bad when he erased people from history.
It's clear this is a very sore point for many Russians, and a lot of anti-US propaganda I'm beginning to think is overcompensation for feelings about this history, rather than a calculated, rational strategy of psychological manipulation.
Or are the edits kept, but the commit log is gone?
Maybe it’s not the Russians that are the problem...
Perhaps this should learn Us to keep all our eggs in one basket. No matter how easy it is.
I wonder if all US citizens are equally responsible for our military's reign of terror over the last couple of decades...
On the other hand, it is often claimed, and seems plausible to many, that the "military industrial complex" is kind of independent from elected representatives' control so citizens are helpless.
Both these themes seem to be pushed by fringe political groups and anti-US propaganda. They are synergistic. Demoralizing anyone is best done by convincing them that all possible choices are evil and nothing can be improved.
Regardless, the unseen power of this sort of discussion is how it maintains a false bubble where the US "reign of terror" is compared to this particular brutal war only.
I haven't been paying attention myself to how Russia has been suppressing revolts, destroying cities, expelling ethnic groups, and backing separatists through the years, but since 1991, there have been something like ten conflicts involving the Russian Federation.
Ten! Well, I had to look it up, but I was certain it was more than zero (plus Ukraine/Crimea). Chechnya alone accounts for two wars.
Everything that anyone ever tries to convince you of these days is an unstated premise. Since everyone's completely immune to assertions by people they don't like.
Besides, a democratic republic is a democracy, just like a dwarf planet is a planet.
I would say that
1) definitions are descriptive of how people use them, as much as they are prescriptive. Perhaps more so.
2) the term "a democracy" is usually used in the binary: Do this countries people choose their leaders or not? Are there voters who "are responsible for the actions of their government" or not? i.e. Democracy vs Autocracy.
The parent commenter makes it very clear that this distinction is what they were getting at:
> Americans are especially responsible because the US is a democracy and not a dictatorship.
To be sure, there are forms of democracy such as "direct democracy" or "democratic republic" and degrees of it, such as a "flawed democracy" or a "new democracy". But the idea that the USA does not fit into this general binary category - as the word "democracy" is used in common speech that you well understand - is not warranted.
The whataboutism in general (not referring to your comment) regarding the Russian war is sort of ridiculous. It's like nobody remembers the outrage over US wars over the past 20 years. Like, most Germans I've met are very critical of the US and their foreign policy.
ridiculous and also predictable. The article on "whataboutism" has a whole section on USSR/ Russia, who frequently deploy this distraction: "whataboutism, a "sacred Russian tactic""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
The former point should be turned: countries seek to join NATO (or not)
Your dear leader did the single act most likely to cause nations to want to join a mutual protection alliance: attacked a potential candidate.
Now Sweden and Finland will likely join this year.
Self determination. Either a country has the sovereign right to make alliances as it sees fit or it’s not a country.
I cannot see any desire for suddenly appeasing Putins concerns about NATO springing from the bloodbath that he is inflicting on Ukraine right now for no good reason.
This notion of victim blame and provocation stops at the moment Vladimir Putin chose to invade Ukraine. 110% Putins fault all
https://rumble.com/vx2iq7-the-white-houses-game-playing-deni...
Twitter has been suspending any accounts that post any evidence (read the books they want to burn):
https://blog.deplorablesocial.com/twitter-account-suspended-...
The US does have "Biological Thread Reduction Programs" in Ukraine and has admitted to it. I hope you can see the obvious propaganda in the name (Greenwald goes into this concept in that video as well):
https://web.archive.org/web/20220224094418mp_/https://ua.use...
There are critics that say there was nothing nefarious about these labs, I'll give you that:
https://meaww.com/putin-bioweapons-labs-ukraine-theory-exper...
and every major news agency denounced these were not bioweapons labs:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/02/25/fac...
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/25/tweets/the...
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/social-media-posts-misrepr...
But there is no way they could verify that "Fact check" false in the middle of a war ... they lie all the time and are just making up stuff here as well:
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2022/03/09/victoria-nul...
---
So those are both sides right there. Personally, after reviewing all the evidence ... I side with Greenwald on this one. First, it's undeniable the US had biological research labs there. That's 100% factual. Now, you really believe they weren't working on any weapons? The government that gave us PRISM, NSA domestic spying and a president that has deep and direct corruption with Ukraine and China via his son Hunter ... It's more likely than not they were working on gain of function research there .. and that means weapons.
Obviously no license is available or GitHub is not applying for it for devs in Russia.
https://github.blog/2021-01-05-advancing-developer-freedom-g...