HN Explorer

Ask HN: APC adding monthly fees / remotely defeaturing existing UPS's?

42 points by hedora ↗ HN
I got an email this morning saying that APC has "changed" their cloud offering to add a premium tier, and that my current cloud service will lose features such as email notifications and firmware updates when the warranty expires (unless I pay a subscription fee).

Is this new? I don't remember agreeing to pay for firmware updates when I set it up. They recently had to patch a remotely exploitable security flaw, so it seems foolhardy to continue to use remote monitoring moving forward. (Will put entire email in thread).

27 comments

[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 64.0 ms ] thread
hedora
The email:

New Subscription Plans for EcoStruxure Ready Smart-UPS Web Portal.

-----

Hello,

Thank you for being a valued APC Smart-UPS web portal customer. Out-of-box remote UPS monitoring via the SmartConnect Ethernet port is included with the purchase of every new Smart-UPS device tied to warranty. On the Standard plan, you have the following great benefits while you are under warranty:

1. Remote UPS status monitoring

2. Configurable power event notifications

3. Remote UPS self-test and audible alarm diagnostics

4. One-click remote UPS firmware upgrade

== What's changing?

APC is introducing optional cloud service plans for customers who require more advanced features or for Smart-UPS that are no longer under warranty.

== New Advanced plan

The Advanced plan introduces remote UPS outlet group power cycling for devices in locations that are hard to reach or have no IT staff on site. Remote outlet group reboot can be enabled for any Smart-UPS by purchasing the Advanced plan.

== What does this mean for you?

Once your UPS warranty expires, your Smart-UPS will move to a Basic plan. You can continue to log into the web portal and view your UPS status but will no longer receive email notifications, remote UPS firmware updates or access to remote diagnostics. To restore your current features, you can purchase the Standard plan or purchase the Advanced plan if you also require remote outlet group reboot.

== Next steps

Log into the Smart-UPS web portal today to learn more about these options and optimise your Smart-UPS cloud monitoring benefits

jaywalk
It sounds like the Standard plan was always tied to being under warranty, and they haven't actually changed what's included with the Standard plan? Am I misreading something here?
hedora
The wording is ambiguous.

I feel like I'd remember the bit where they withold security updates after a few years, and they say the plan that allows security updates to keep working is new.

Either way, it's pretty crappy of them. Would love to know of an alternative that will last longer than the first set of (replacable!) batteries.

seanp2k2
Check out the Eaton 5PX series. Local web-based management, no subscription BS, easy to replace standard 12v7ah batteries in a user-serviceable sled, can be used as a tower or rackmount, 120v options available, and you can find them on ebay in good condition for ~$300 shipped with some patience. Just pay attention to the ones with 5-20P plugs, but those can be used with standard household outlets via a simple mechanical "5-15p to 5-20R" adapter, assuming you won't be pulling more than 15 amps.

APC is a trash company with trash products. I've had at least 4 of their prosumer UPS models fail over the years.

obenn
Are you sure this removes the ability to perform ANY software update? As far as I can interpret from this email this just seems to remove the ability to perform the update remotely.
hedora
Maybe? The remote firmware update is non-disruptive.

In the best case, I risk bumping cables while futzing with a USB stick. In the worst case, it wants a power cycle to update via USB.

1-6
That’s why going to an open-source BMC is important.
hedora
Do you know of any open source-compatible uninterruptible power supplies? I specifically chose this model because APC has (had?) a reputation for being bulletproof.

(My last UPS was also closed source. It liked to beep at odd hours, and sporadically turned itself off. At least the APC doesn't do that, I guess.)

Also, at the end of the day, it's just an overpriced sealed car battery. I wasn't looking for a hobby project, and if I was, this would be low on the list.

seanp2k2
It's more than a sealed car battery: it's also a transformer, some MOS FETS, a charger, and switcher (basically a tiny version of an Automatic Transfer Switch that a datacenter would have). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj7e3WGUKO8 has a good teardown / explanation of different types of UPSes.
Froedlich
Eric S. Raymond was working on one, with the help of some EE friends, but his blog went 404 some time ago. You might find some mention of it on archive.org, and perhaps contact information for one of the other developers.
dmitrygr
And people ask me why I want ability to disable all automatic firmware updates (so i can vet them against people's comments when they roll out to others) and prefer to buy non-internet-connected things.
gruez
So rather than being upset a few years later when your cloud functionality isn't working you... don't use it in the first place? I guess that's a viable choice if you weren't planning to use the cloud features to begin with, but the OP seems to be using the cloud features, and is upset that he's losing access to them.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
jtbayly
For many circumstances that makes complete sense. You don't want to become dependent on something that you can't depend on. Better to find a dependable way to work.
dmitrygr
Yes. If I don’t control it, I cannot rely on it. No need to condition myself otherwise.
cute_boi
This is why I always avoid closed source things :). I don't want my device to stop working due to updates. Also, its impossible that someone will keep running cloud for my device forever.
m-p-3
I suggest that if you have a server attached to it, to monitor it through a dashboard like Grafana. You can also set up monitoring alerts from there too.
0des
Subscription things are something I wish would have died in the media wars of cable TV.

Also, on a more tangential note, allow me to gripe briefly: Blue Apron, and other with this model, consider how much garbage you are creating for the minimal value of your schemes.

paulgb
> Blue Apron, and other with this model, consider how much garbage you are creating for the minimal value of your schemes.

This is getting a bit tangential, but I've been wondering about whether the environmental footprint of grocery delivery really is lower or higher than going in-person to pick it up. Grocery stores have a huge, air-conditioned square footage just so that I can walk around and pick stuff out. Lots of food gets thrown out unused. I bring less packaging home, but stuff is still delivered to the grocery store in packages, I'm just outsourcing the guilt of throwing it out to the grocery store. Meanwhile, companies like Blue Apron and Imperfect batch deliveries to my building, so the carbon footprint of delivery is amortized over everyone who benefits from it.

jdlshore
I read about a study that concluded meal delivery kits resulted in less CO2 emissions, mostly because because store-bought food required people to buy larger quantities, so there was more food waste. I don't remember the details, but remember being somewhat skeptical about the way the study was conducted.

The point being that there's lots of factors and packaging isn't necessarily the biggest one.

0des
I hate to get all "That's just what they want you to believe maaaan!" but I'm going to wear my tinfoil hat on this matter while we both look up who may have funded that study.
jdlshore
The same thought crossed my mind. :-)
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
drewzero1
At the same time, the carbon footprint of the grocery store's whole system is amortized over everyone who gets their food there. It's not just so one person can walk around, but to serve a large percentage of local residents over the course of each week. (To be fair, a lot of them drive their own cars, so that needs to be taken into account as well.) The food comes in on densely-packed semi trucks, on reusable pallets stacked with largely recyclable or reusable distribution packaging, which is sent back to the distribution center to be used again on the next delivery. There's an economy of scale with some long-developed efficiency tactics that, at least in my area, delivery services just can't touch.

It is certainly true that grocery stores throw out food that goes bad before it sells. What do services like Blue Apron (or their suppliers) do with perishables that aren't up to par?

neilv
This is another reason for me not to connect a UPS to data.

I started using data-connectable UPSes at home a couple decades ago. When I got my first such UPS, I happened to be in an IRC community of systems people who were frequently targeted by script kiddies. Usually they would just knock people or servers off the net, but sometimes they'd hack in, and we got a little practice at countermeasures. With this awareness in mind, I decided that having a UPS-triggered smooth server shutdown, in event of rare extended power outage, wasn't worth even the tiny risk of someone messing with the UPS remotely, and accidentally causing a fire.

I currently have two rackmount Cyberpower UPSes at home, still not data-connected. And it turns out, in the last couple decades, I've never needed the data connection.

Incidentally, this IoT move by APC sounds off-putting. I've long favored APC, and only switched to Cyberpower at home for the short-depth form factors. APC now has a neat and pricey Lithium battery short-depth line, but if Cyberpower can beat APC on customer goodwill (including IoT nonsense), they'll cement me and presumably others as loyal customers.