Sad news. I've been waiting for a chin-less upgrade for a while, it made for an amazing gaming/music device, and also a cheap high-quality touch screen remote for random hacks.
The iPod touch was so great for me as a kid, it provided an accessible (read - cheap) platform I could plug into a Mac and deploy iOS apps to at a young age.
Now there's really no reason to keep it around, as you can get an off-contract used iPhone that is better in every dimension for less money. Still feel a bit sad to see it leave.
I fell in love with computers through jailbreaking iPod touches. Back then, for me a jailbroken ipod felt like there was a whole world waiting for me; and you could tweak anything at all. I eventually started running a mini business at my school, offering to jailbreak anyones ipod/iphone (for a small fee, of course). I would even put a custom boot logo advertising my enterprise on all my customers device. Looking back now, that feels a bit scummy, but at the time I thought it was the coolest thing ever.
It never left. The iPhone is the new iPod, it just has more features that make it more than just a music player and more importantly has the option for a SIM (although it isn't necessary).
I get what you mean though. I think the iPhone SE has taken its place in terms of affordability.
I understand it's really carefully worded, but I tend to feel insulted by a press release that says everything _except_ the message, to make it less harsh.
This seems like the most indirect way possible to say "we're discontinuing the last iPod". _Most_ of the content of this press release is fine, in my opinion, but saying "iPod Touch is available while supplies last" just doesn't seem like a great way to phrase it.
I read it like three times to see if I'd missed it. Very strange approach to this. There is no shame in celebrating its impact and saying the brand/category is being retired.
And the weird thing is when you try to say something without saying it, it makes it look like you’re ashamed of it. There’s nothing here to be ashamed of, so why not just say it clearly and succinctly?
One would think people write these missives, but on further thought, it might be OpenAI trained on 1000s of previously similarly obfuscated press releases.
> This seems like the most indirect way possible to say "we're discontinuing the last iPod".
To me, the subhead "iPod touch will be available while supplies last" succinctly performs double-duty: (1) We discontinued iPod touch, and (2) if you want (another) one, this is your last chance.
Google had this down to a science. "An update on..." was the best possible business euphemism for cancelling something, and they did it every time, so you didn't have to read the rest of the article/blog post. "The music lives on" just isn't as good. I know Apple didn't want to copy Google here, but they should have. "An update on [the] iPod Touch". Easy. You know what the update is.
“The Music Lives On” is the part that makes me chuckle at them being Excessively Apple about it, really. I understand they may not have wanted “Finally Killing the iPod” as the headline, or even “The iPod is Gone, but the Music Lives On”, but I can’t help think of Phil Schiller standing on stage a few years back describing removing the headphone jack as “courage”.
Agreed. I've changed the title above. If there's a more accurate and neutral title, we can change it again.
HN's title rule is "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait", and corporate press release titles are usually both. For that reason we usually rewrite them.
Sad to see the iPod go. I have an iPhone, but it's not the same. There's a lot of value in unitaskers.
I have a long train trip coming up. I'll have my iPhone with me, but I'll also bring my iPod shuffles. They're simply better suited to the task than to have to deal with all the compromises of a device that tries to be everything to everyone all the time.
- Vastly superior battery time. In part, because it's not trying to do a million things other than play music.
- Better ergonomically. I can lay in my berth at night with my wired earbuds and listen with a tiny, durable device instead of a large, fragile device. It's not tragic if I roll over on a Shuffle, or drop it out the side of the bed.
- A shuffle on a small train table takes up much less space than an iPhone. Or no space at all, since I can clip it to my clothing.
- To me, the Shuffles just sound better than the phone. I'm sure there are a million blogs that dispute this with all kinds of mathematical blather. But I use the same earbuds with my Shuffles and my iPhone, and the Shuffles just sound better to my ears.
For me, the feature that beats all of those combined is simply being able to carry all my music around for free. Now I have to either constantly swap it around and filter it, or pay through the nose to stream it.
I imagine that Apple would never bring back an iPod in the future with the clicky wheel because it could be perceived as 'backwards looking' and cuts against their desired image as 'innovators' who bring out the 'next thing'. Bit sad, because my memory of the later generations of the Nano is that it was an excellent device.
It's probably true that most people just get their music and podcasts through streaming services on their phones though, so perhaps they don't care to keep a niche product around.
I think we'd all probably welcome that... except Apple, because I just did a quick Google and it does look like Apple have successfully patented (Patent 7,932,897) the clicky wheel input. So I don't think a US based company like Analogue could get away with that!
I had an iPod something-or-other, and I think it gave Spotify the idea of shuffling maybe 45 songs of thousands over-and-over, and completely ignoring 93 percent of the music.
I might pick one of these up so I can do that now in color.
This is a problem with Spotify's shuffling algorithm. It's really stupid, it ignores some songs completely.
They used to have a good algorithm, but because it was truly random, some users complained about hearing the same artist quickly in sequence.
Instead of implementing a list of recently played songs they changed the algorithm to be 'smart' but it's actually quite dumb because it really never plays some songs. Especially when you have only a few artists in the playlist, and some with less songs than others. As I tend to do.
They say it's "more appealing to the human brain" but I think it stinks. I wish they had an option to switch back a truly random one. If I don't like a song I'll skip it anyway. But never presenting some is worse.
The iPod touch has got to be the last PDA. Smartphones are the realization of the '90s vision of PDAs, with cellular capability and additional features included, but it's interesting how standalone PDAs no longer exist.
Nobody would buy a standalone PDA these days, mainly because they'd need one core feature: Access to e-mail. At that point, you need, at the very least, a WiFi connection, but customers would likely expect a cellular connection.
And at that point, bam, you have a phone.
You could try to make it "not a phone" by removing the speaker and microphone, but people will occasionally want to play a game, so you'll need the speaker, and someone might want to record speech for note-taking, so you'll need the microphone.
TBH, I'm not sure how you could possibly make a "not a phone" PDA.
Nobody would buy an offline PDA. At least, not enough people to pay for the development of it.
Even back in PalmPilot days, internet connectivity was definitely desirable. I suppose Planet Computers' devices are trying to capture some of the PDA spirit by emphasizing the computing, productivity aspects of smartphones with good keyboards.
Great, then they surely won't hesitate now to release any and all documentation for their old hardware, to prevent millions of devices from becoming useless junk even though they're perfectly fine, hardware wise. I've got a nice iPod touch 6th gen here that will be perfect as an mp3 player on linux or rockbox.
Driver source code/detailed hardware documentation for all the components. Signing keys to enable proper persistent installation of custom firmware. In a perfect world, source to whatever the final version of iOS to run on it is.
Basically, everything required for third parties to support the devices to the same level that Apple did before discontinuing them.
---
(Getting downvoted for a strong right to repair stance? I wasn't really expecting that here, but OK.)
Right. It's totally feasible for a community-maintained firmware to keep these devices alive if there was no barrier to installing custom firmware, Apple ought to have a customary "EOL" update for these devices that allows them to be unlocked if the owner chooses.
I still use my 6th generation iPod Nano, mostly for radio, but the usefulness of it is dwindling as more and more stations move away from the FM-band and go digital, it's still a cool device and it also still works with Music/iTunes.
I started using my 6th gen nano again just a couple of weeks ago, after my last-gen iPod classic finally gave up the ghost. I don't know what I'm going to do long-term - the capacity of the nano just isn't enough. It's heartbreaking watching functionality regress like this :(
The iPod introduced me to Apple's entire ecosystem. Without that early-2000's experience of design, build-quality, and usability, I would probably never have taken the plunge on Mac mini, iPads, and a MacBook.
I’ve always imagined that an iPod-something would be my child’s first camera/media device. We’re not ready for that leap yet (at only 3 1/2 yo), but I’m curious — what are others opting for in this use case?
how about an iPad? mini if the size is a concern for you guys, but the camera is pretty solid, performance means it’ll last your kid years, and there are so many edu-tainment titles on the App Store. i think especially the Pencil (or the child-oriented Logitech alternative) would be great to encourage a growing child’s creativity, as well as apps like iMovie, GarageBand…
Ehhhh I distinctly remember being around 10 years old, getting a miniature landline phone [1], and dialing 911. Then my parents had to explain to the operator that there was no emergency and how sorry they were. Kids do dumb things.
Can you uninstall the phone app, or whatever Apple calls it? I'm using LineageOS and it looks like I can disable it, though I don't care to try right now.
Plus, it's arguably worth risking accidental 911 calls to allow necessary ones. And landlines have had the same risk for decades.
One of my friends kids (about 5) went through a phase where she was fascinated with calling 911. The iPod Touch became the way to handle this, you could hand her the iPod and know she couldn't dial out. Sure an iPad could work, but this girl had siblings and the parents didn't want to have to buy everybody an ipad.
Kidless adult asking - why not make the device cellularly capable, just limiting calls (if not data-only)? Most of the time they won't need it, but I can see the benefit of having a cellular-capable device in my kid's possession if they ever found themselves in an emergency situation. I would assume cell carriers could limit the device from doing for-cost things, and there are unlimited data plans again.
Because you don't want kids having access to the internet unsupervised for obvious reasons.
My little cousins (under 12 years old) get a cellular Apple Watch. That allows their parent to always know where they are and can contact them, but prevents the kids from being able to use the internet.
Young kids (3 years old) have a knack for finding naughty things.
My mom's bf's 6 year old loves sonic and loves playing sonic video on youtube. We were having dinner and it had autoplayed into some naughty sonic furry stuff and we had to change it also while trying to maintain his innocence and not explain things he might not be ready for. lol. This was last year which I think is after youtube really tried to improve video for children but it still happened somehow.
I remember being 9-10 years old and accidentally clicking a popup and learning about genitals. It's not the best way to learn as a kid. It's better coming from their parents.
They were! And we didn't have popup blockers. lol. I remember you could mess up and accidentally open 1000s of windows (we didn't even have tabs then. lol)
For my older child, 10, she has a Gabb watch, with very limited cellular capabilities and low monthly cost. My other kid, 7, is unlikely to be in a situation where he's without adult supervision, so not really worth it. Besides, I don't really want my kids to have unfettered internet access, especially when unsupervised.
Our daughter first had two generations of iPod Touch. However, one big downside is that the screen is tiny compared with other devices. About a year ago or so, she switched to an old iPhone 6s without a SIM card and it's fine for Facetiming/messaging with her grandparents and photos.
iPad has been my kids only device, media, games, school, etc. They are getting to the age where they want phones but we are holding off.
Also they sometimes need to use laptop/desktop for school but that is rare now that most everything works in Safari or there is an app. Even printing etc works great and they love the pencil. They also have mouse and keyboard for them usually for schoolwork.
When I was a kid, I was looking to buy my first gaming device. I was debating between getting a Nintendo DS and the 4th gen iPod, ultimately deciding on the iPod. This ended up being a great choice as I was able to get more games than I would have been able to on the DS and it opened up a world of being able to text my friends (primarily through Words with Friends at the time).
It's a shame it's being discontinued, it was the perfect first device for children.
As someone who used both devices for gaming, I would say that while the iPod may have had quantity, the DS without a doubt had the quality of games. Amazing library.
iPhone SE 2nd generation (from early 2020) will be pretty cheap nowadays with the 3rd gen out. Probably still a bit pricier than an iPod Touch, but Apple went long periods of time without updating the Touch. While not reducing the price.
Though it won’t be possible to get new iPhone SE 2nd gen for long. At that point, a refurbished or used 11 or XR or SE 2nd gen will not be too much. The latter two should be cheaper than a new iPod Touch.
These days parents hand down their phone to their kids so its basically free from that perspective. The height of the iPod Touch was the time when parents were only just getting their first smartphone.
It's essentially an iPhone 7 without a SIM. Just buy one of those. I'm assuming it would cost less than a new iPod touch and it prevents old iPhones from becoming e-waste.
We have a bunch of old iPhones for kids, but we can’t setup iMessage on those phones without an active phone number. We can setup iMessage (email based) on iPad and iPod Touches, so this is frustrating. I want my kids to not be full on cellular internet, but I like that they can message relatively safely friends and family with iMessage.
I'm using an old iPhone without a SIM card as a spare device and iMessage works on it WIFI-only. But I have to admit that initial setup of the Apple ID wasn't done on this phone. Perhaps you could setup your kids Apple IDs on another device and then use them on the old phones with iMessage as well?
We use a cell service called Tello for my kids phones. For $5/mo you can get a plan with 100 minutes of voice calls, sms, and no data whatsoever. It's perfect for my kids, since I don't really want them to have mobile data anyway
I don’t believe this is true or something let’s me not need any [working] sim in my phones. I can log into an iCloud account and FT, iMessage accounts on non sim working phones too.
You're missing something; I have a first gen SE that's got no SIM and it has email based iMessage setup and working. It's for my son to FaceTime with family.
It’s not even pedantic. The next line says “new iPods” are pricier than iPhone 7s. So they meant non new iPhone 7s. Followed by e-waste which wouldn’t be about a new device
The person knows that. If you read on. That’s why they say it’s probably cheaper than a new iPod. By saying “new” for iPod, it’s a distinction versus iPhone 7s. Then they bring up e-waste which is about used devices being re-used. Not using a new device.
I'm sorry but I disagree. I carried around a game boy pocket, with several game cartridges just fine as a kid. I see kids taking Nintendo switches and an iPad everywhere with them today.
On an iPod FaceTime and iMessage work as expected over Wifi. Last time I tried to use an iPhone without a sim card they didn't work. Is that still the case? If so, is it a technical limitation or an intentional one?
Yeah I posted about it above and people said it works fine. I wonder if it depends on who you original carrier was or something? I'm going to try again!
Major problem with that: Phones without SIMs can still make emergency calls (911, etc).
I got one for my kid as a camera. Why? Because it costs as much as many kids cameras, while they're absolute trash, and the camera module/software in the iPod takes really high quality photos that are easy to export or manipulate.
Old iPhones are inexpensive, but you cannot disable emergency calling for a good reason, but that good reason still doesn't make you want to hand one to a 7-year-old as a glorified camera.
Both. Just a whole scope of problem that can be eliminated by not getting a device with a cellular modem. Plus a lot of iOS devices have strange interactions with iPhones without phone numbers (imessage and signal for two specific examples).
This is the worst thing about Signal, IMO. I want to use old phones as backup communication devices (wifi) but can't natively use the software that way.
Minus being able to listen while charging (or dealing with more adapters), losing your adapter after you pocket it when you want to use your headphones on any other device, etc...
If you’ve got a kid or kids, don’t even give e-waste a second thought. The environmental cost of a new person is so astronomical as to make any other decision you make a rounding error.
The iPad mini might be Apple's response to mostly fill the gap. The device can run phone apps without having the features of calling/texting.
The tablet also has more educational value as it supports handwriting and drawing, though it comes at the cost of not being pocket-size (adding inconvenience for users who just want to listen to music).
The regular "iPad" is more similar. Low priced model that lags behind the design and power of the flagship models. Starts at $329 vs $500 if you don't mind the big bezels, lightning port, and A13 processor with 3GB RAM.
Mini has the small bezels, USB-C port, supports the magnetically charged stylus, and has an A15 with 4 GB RAM, so it's priced more in line with the iPad Air even though it's the small one.
I used to have an iPad Mini, I think 3? Whichever model was before it got Touch ID. Back then it was a smaller and cheaper version of the normal iPad, more recently it's moved to the middle of the line (but below the "Pro" versions).
I just realized the iPad mini I still use doesn’t have Touch ID. I have an iPad mini 3. It’s slow on the last OS it can be on, iOS 12. I use it because a jailbreak tweak that can last.fm scrobble (tracks listening/viewing history) works on older devices like that one.
Just went and checked, the Mini 2 didn't have Touch ID, the 3 added it but changed pretty much nothing else.
I think what I had was a 2 purchased after the 3 came out, someplace was clearing them out for around $150 off even though it was practically the same device except it took half a second longer to unlock. Pretty good deal, eventually got demoted to kitchen recipe screen.
The iPad mini costs more than an iPhone SE. it’s not that small either so if it isn’t going to be in your pocket, an iPad is over $100 cheaper.
I think the iPad Mini makes sense as a product line in general. Which is being a smaller screen (and thus cheaper) iPad Air. It does work as an option, but so do iPads.
Why would you even what that? I get the opposite (phone without internet), but this has all the downsides for the development of a child without the advantage of a child being able to contact their parents or vice versa?
The iPod touch cannot call 911. The iPod touch doesn't require me to have a phone contract. Not every kid needs a phone, but having an iPod touch keeps the kid from getting bullied by the "Blue Message" crowd.
iPod touches also sent iMessages, since all you need is an Apple ID.
That's why I said "having an iPod touch keeps the kid from getting bullied by the "Blue Message" crowd" - It was the device you could buy a kid and not worry about the green messages.
iPhones without phone contracts can still call 911.
My main driver is an iPhone SE from 2016, which I bought used in 2019 for 50 euro (about 50 dollars). Best phone I've ever had. It does get worse with every update just like every other device with software updates), but it's still quite usable.
I wish I learned the trick of "buying quality devices that are a few years old and using them until end-of-life" ages ago (also works great with laptops, though Apple's ones tend to stay expensive despite their age, so it works better with Thinkpads), I've spent so much money on brand new devices, which did not benefit me in any meaningful way.
More to the thread: I too am puzzled by the idea of giving my child a device that allows them to rot their brain but doesn't allow us to call each other. Seems like it should be the other way around—I keep hearing how the people who run big tech companies don't let their kids use technology, because they know how harmful it is.
from apple's vantage point, the watch (with airpods) is meant to fill this niche (more lucratively for them). apple even went against its own one-user-one-device edict to allow one iphone to control multiple watches to support this positioning.
edit: i should add that this is also one of the reasons apple has the "voice only" music subscription.
I won’t try to convince you, but go watch the Motorola ROKR introduction from Steve Jobs on YouTube, then watch his introduction of the iPhone at MacWorld 2007.
You can tell when he’s not just selling something, but believes that what he says he is selling is what he is selling.
This is the same Steve Jobs that said on stage Samsung's original Galaxy Tab 7" defeated the purpose of a tablet because he needed to file his fingers down to use it.
He knew full well an iPad Mini was coming the year after. He just had to sell what was on the shelves now.
Ha! I remember that. But if you recall, the first iPad mini was 7.9” and subsequent iPads mini stayed close to the 8” watermark. A decade later my iPhone is a lot closer to 7” at 6.7”.
it's hard to undersell how big a deal the ipod was 15 years ago. the iphone was introduced as an ipod first, a phone second, and an internet communicator third. until the app store launched, most of the ads were "it's an ipod that makes phone calls". and people expected the touch to be good because the click wheel was good
This. This is something that has been interesting to see sort of get mixed up in memory.
The struggling computer company first got into people's pockets with a device that played music (a key insight - people make emotional contact with media). That position then bought them the time to finance development of know-how around pocket computers in plain sight. And then finally when the timing was just right and nobody expected it, they basically leveraged that position to deliver that pocket computer to the masses.
I think it's the opinion of many, even if they don't realise it. The term "iPod-killer" just dropped out of usage overnight - the iPhone was the iPod-killer, an accomplishment which turned out to be so far down its CV that it was never mentioned.
Too soon. The iPod would be the perfect companion for an Apple Watch once there is a bit more energy available in the battery of the watch.
Instead of selling the watch as an add-on to the phone, the watch could be the central device and the screen of the iPod could be brought out when the voice assistants come to their rare limits.
There is no need for a phone when better screens are available most of the times (e.g. at the desk, the car or the tv).
This is great news. I have an old iPod touch that i kept because it had no trade-in value. Can't wait for it to be worth something in about a decade or however long it takes for these electronics to become 'vintage'. Also, if anyone wants to pay $$$ for a 2012 Macbook Air..
For the last 2 years I’ve been using an iPod touch as my “downtime” device. I usually put my iPhone away in a drawer from early evening until I’m ready to start work the next day. I found this impossible to stick to until I got an iPod touch, because in the evenings and mornings I often need to manage things like HomeKit devices or other Apple ecosystem things like Reminders. I don’t have any distracting or time-sucking apps on the iPod touch, and the screen is small and fiddly, so I barely use it except for a few seconds here and there for something practical. The difference in stress levels and mindset has been huge. I can’t recommend highly enough separating your phone usage into ‘social/work/news/comms’ and ‘practical/home/calm’ categories, on different physical devices.
I have tried using the new iOS Focus and Downtime features to make my iPhone work a similar way (hide all the time-sucking apps at certain times of day etc), but having a dedicated device for the purpose is much simpler and much more effective.
I do something similar but not quite the same with my iPad: it has most of the same (non-work) apps that my phone does, but I've disabled all notifications for all apps so it never yells at me; it's an entirely chill-out/self-directed device where nothing ever grabs at my attention
I treat my main phone as a notification entrypoint; trash-notifications are turned off, of course, but every messaging, calling, email, etc app has them turned on. If I want to know if anything relevant to me has happened, I look there or keep it nearby. If I don't have a notification there, I know nothing has happened
On my iPad, even messages with friends, emails, etc are all blocked. Not even red badges on the app icons. Nothing that can possibly prompt or notify me in any way. I don't think I could get away with that on my main phone
I have an older iPad mini for this purpose (but an old iPhone without a data plan would work too). I setup a separate home@<domain> iCloud account under my family plan and use it exclusively for streaming music vi AirPlay, cooking w/ recipes on Paprika, HomeKit controls, reminders, timers, etc. - no Slack notifications, no calls, no calendar reminders. The AppleTV goes on the same account too. It's really been a great solution.
I've got an old LG V40 for this purpose.
It's got music apps, meditation, and a few other non-social things.
It's also my flashlight if I wake up in the night, and alarm clock to wake me in the morning.
Sony is still making modern variants of the Walkman. I'm not a big fan of their Android powered versions, but I like the slightly earlier versions that can only play music.
I ask this question in good faith, coming from a long line of dedicated music devices, including the Diamond Rio PMP300, and a huge, file based, music collection. Why not use a smartphone?
Some of us don't want that level of functionality or capability. I prefer a dumb device that lacks the capability to obsolete itself at the behest of the mother ship, or analyze and interpret my behavior for ad revenue
The amp in them is slightly better than a smartphones assuming you are using wired headphones. Other than that I like having dedicated devices that do a thing as good as the thing can be done. It feels like it will never become outdated so I only ever need to continue my library of music in that one place. It's also nice not draining my phones battery by listening to music. Knowing that the device is incapable of tracking you or giving you ads in any way is good too.
I also prefer single purpose devices for retro gaming and taking photos.
I've owned so many iPods from the very first and loved each one. Now I don't care for ~iTunes~/Apple Music and the dumbed-down walled garden that it lives it. It's not even because I carry a smartphone. Just the other day I was researching non-Apple music players.
To me the iPod died with the introduction of the Touch which was a cheap iPhone, that had lower quality standards even in the area of sound quality. iPhones have no headphone jack so they're not suitable listening devices if you care about audio quality (or are willing to carry an external DAC). Apple Music makes nothing about managing music on any Apple device great.
M1 Macs are doing well, and still waiting to see what happens with iPadOS and if it can live up the the 'OS' name in terms of creation not consumption apps.
> iPhones have no headphone jack so they're not suitable listening devices if you care about audio quality (or are willing to carry an external DAC).
The $9 official headphone dongle is a superior DAC to most audiophile products and has a bigger R&D budget than that entire industry. Same goes for Google’s USBC dongle.
You can still carry around an amp if you have very power hungry headphones though. Personally, I don’t think I could ABX lossy audio while outside dodging cars in the crosswalk.
The concept of using dongles while walking around seems like it wouldn't be without inconvenience. What is your setup like and does it disconnect sometimes while walking?
Agreed. Using a dongle is a terrible experience. I had to buy a few cause they kept breaking for me. The primary way I listen to music on my phone is while walking around with my phone in my pocket. In addition, the lightning port can get dust in it so sometimes it is difficult to maintain a good connection. The connection kept coming loose and causing the music to stop for me. I even had my phone’s lightning port cleaned at an Apple authorized repair center, but the problem came back after around a month. Never had that problem with a 3.5mm audio jack in my life.
I ended up having to buy Bluetooth headphones just to listen to music on my iPhone which has its own problems because they have to be charged all the time.
Damn, ain't that a shame. I had suspected the dongle would be susceptible to that, which is why I was curious initially. What bluetooth headphones are you on?
I am currently looking around for a standalone digital player, no market, no apps, no fancy anything, with a wired headphone (currently looking at KZ EDX Pros, despite the crinacle drama). Might end up getting another sandisk and doing a mod on it to hold 1TB. Those things are damn near bullet proof but their secret weakness is my washing machine
I mainly use AirPods, but my problems with cables have been microphonics (it transmits sounds from rubbing on your clothes) and being too long and not having anywhere to put the length. Disconnection has never been an issue, putting the phone downwards in your pocket is fine.
I don't get it. Though iPod Touch is a lotta bit of feature creep, surely the portable media player market is still profitable. I just want it to play music and fit all my music in my change pocket. Bring back the iPod Shuffle!
Isn't that what the Apple Watch is supposed to do?
I agree that a relatively simple, relatively low-priced media player with great build quality would have a market - but Apple would be cannibalising it's 'fitness-oriented' market if they allowed both the Shuffle and the Watch to exist.
Yeah, but you can't use the Watch as a standalone device (something that, as a WatchOS developer, I have always found stupid beyond reason...it should just have limited functionality on its own, including media playback) - if you could, not only would they sell millions upon millions more of them, but it could be a reasonable replacement for an iPod.
Until then, if you want to use it as an 'iPod', it's just another expense on top of the iPhone you already have that's your 'iPod'.
Apple cancelling the iPod line completely is frankly dumb. I know at least a dozen parents who use these for their kids.
Also, what's with all the people suggesting parents just buy an iPhone with no sim? Y'all realize that the cheapest iPhone is twice as much as the $199 iPod Touch? :/
The watch isn't 100% standalone but I have no issues listening to music and podcasts away from my phone and I think people using it for listening to music while exercising away from the phone is a huge selling point for many people.
Just to highlight this point, an iPhone is required for activation. You can't activate with any other Apple device. You can use a family member's iPhone.
What exactly are you asking for the Watch to do? I load mine with music to play while my phone is in a gym locker all the time. Do you just want to be able to get files onto it without needing an iPhone? There are "millions upon millions" of people clamoring for that feature?
Especially if you're on Wi-Fi and I believe on cellular (we still don't have it here in 3rd world) you can just go hiking with the watch and stream your music on Bluetooth without phone.
Same for messaging, fitness tracking, and voice calls. I think it's enough for that device.
Dedicated music players has become an audiophile market. That means volumes are too low for a company that sells enough Airpods for that business alone to be almost 10X the revenue of Snapchat, while being under 5% of Apple revenue. You have to use a microscope to see the iPod numbers.
Thank you for reminding me iPod Shuffle! Gosh, this was a crazy good thing. Now everything is in an (i)Phone... Shuffle was honestly the first mass-market wearable device that worked. I love not taking my phone on a longer runs/hikes, but I want my music. With 2022 Apple Shuffle I could have my Apple Music with me lightweight, but I cannot. Sure I could used Apple Watch for this, but I'm in Garmin ecosystem... sigh. Gimme my music without transferring MP3 files I can buy on Amazon or directly from the artist to my Garmin watch, so I could just run with my watch.
Or you know, Garmin, split-off your wearables division in separate company, Apple buys it, Apple takes some Garmin thingies into Apple Watch, create Apple Watch Pro based on Garmin Hardware and sports functions, add Apple software and we're golden. This is a business advice, if Garmin/Apple decide to do this, compensate me. /s
So does a lot of companies selling on Aliexpress/Alibaba, but this doesn't help with my infrastructure problem - I would still need to buy and copy manually MP3 files onto the player.
You can still buy new portable music players, including some Sony branded walkmans, but at least the Sony ones are just with an expensive DAC, some hardware buttons and interally run Android. Probably has too, because most people get their music through streaming.
I had a 6th gen iPod Classic that I used for almost 15 years before it finally died on me a few months back. Dedicated music players nowadays are a niche market, so it was really hard to find a replacement. I ended up getting a FiiO M5, and while it's definitely got some pros -- much better sound quality, can pop in a 512GB/1TB SD card for effectively infinite space for compressed songs, can play FLAC/WAV/OGG -- the ergonomics of the iPod were just so much better. It's funny how seemingly little things can be so frustrating: there's only enough space on the screen for 4 names at a time, the scrolling isn't adaptive so it takes forever to get to the bottom, the play order isn't consistent with the song display order within a folder... I used to love just browsing my music collection on my iPod on the train to work, but with the M5 I'll just pick an album or playlist and press play. It's just not as fun to flip through music.
I don't consider myself an Apple fanboy, but the iPod was a rock solid product that got all of the little things right. Given that the market for standalone DAPs is tiny because most people today just use their phones and music streaming apps, it's unlikely that we'll ever see a music player that compares to it.
It's a shame that personal music players are still so niche. The hardware coming out of China right now blows any phone out of the water in terms of usability, performance, and battery life, all at a fraction of the cost.
We're in a Renaissance age of mobile listening thanks to ChiFi. I love carrying around a second device that has no persistent connection to the internet, no notifications, and can drive any headphones I throw at it... With sideloaded Audible and Tidal to boot.
Media used to be this easy and pleasurable to consume before phones got it the way.
Battery life? Usability? Renaissance?? Have I been trying the wrong DAPs?
I'm also really into single-purpose electronics. My whole library is FLAC, so these players should be right up my alley. Except they tend to be heavy and expensive, and when it comes to UI, either they're using Android poorly, with incredibly bad battery life (HiBy R5/R6, Fiio M9, A&K anything), or they're using a custom UI with pre-iPod UX sensibilities. And even when they use Android, they try to graft their own UI onto it, so that in the end you have the worst of both worlds -- just watch what happens to the volume settings on any Android-based HiBy DAP after connecting with Bluetooth.
The communities that buy this stuff are much more into the technical and theoretical sound quality than how it actually comes together as a product. The marketing reflects that; the product pages are all litanies of incremental DAC processor upgrades, circuit diagrams, and cryptic audio codecs. And because this is what folks care about, it's hard to find reviewers who even mention into UX.
If you have a rec I'm all ears, because I'm on the verge of resuscitating my original Pixel just for this.
but then I am forced to use the Apple Music app, which is sadly moving away from library management to streaming. It's still a good advice for the many people with old iphones in their drawers.
Korean, not Chinese, but I'm a massive fan of Cowon products. The (sadly discontinued) Cowon J3 was legendary, rightfully called the best DAP of all time by many. Currently have a Cowon Plenue D2 in my pocket.
My HiBy R3 has solid battery life (north of fiften hours of continuous playtime) and nice physical buttons, but I agree the custom UI is very sub-par, and I get somewhat more mileage of it as a high-quality bluetooth DAC than as a DAP.
For me, physical buttons are the best UI. Completely agree with the screen UI being ugly but being able to play/pause, switch songs, change volume, and rewind my book using a clicky button beats any touchscreen UI imo.
I'm using an AK SR25 right now and absolutely love it. It's pretty small.
Well, if you use Bluetooth you're no longer using the DAC inside the DAP, so it's not "driving" the headphones in the sense that GP meant. That said, most DAPs support bluetooth these days, with trendy codecs like LDAC, aptX-HD, etc. However, eschewing the device DAC kinda wastes a lot of the money you spent on the DAP.
For Bluetooth usage a year or two ago I would have recommended the Shanling M0. All these devices have awful touchscreens and the M0 is no exception, but it's tiny, light, and has long battery life. Unfortunately, in this space the manufacturers tend to discontinue products in favor of new ones within a year.
Phones come with like 128 GB of storage. Not all is usable but that accommodates like four days of continuous uncompressed music. How long do you really go without a network connection and need music for?
Also I think they playback with hardware don’t they? They aren’t running the CPU. It uses a trickle of charge just like your iPod.
IMO a person who wants to store music on their phone locally doesn't want to supplement streaming, they want to replace it entirely. If they didn't then you're right, all of the major DSP's offer local storage through their apps and the 128/256/512 GB options available from iPhones is fine. (no idea what the limit is like for Android phones, I'm sure it's much more)
I'd love a suggestion or three - my old ipod nano is dying and I would find sifting through the junk/good on alixpress or other sites almost impossible without recommendations.
I also prefer it not to have internet, notifications, etc, so that sounds perfect.
Speaking of ChiFi, the latest Fiio flagship portable DAP, the M17, looks like what happens when your industrial engineer has a mental breakdown and completely loses his shit.
The thing is thick and dissipates so much heat that they have an official active cooling stand to go with it. How is that portable? What makes the whole situation funnier is that they spin it as a feature, calling it "Desktop tier heat dissipation" (you can't make this up).
If building your own isn't acceptable, I like the Sony Walkman series quite a bit. I have a WM1A and a ZX300 and I have minimal complaints other than they cost way too much. There are also a bunch of Chinese brands making players with decent DAC's, but they all use the same Android interface with minimal tweaks for the most part, the battery life and UX sucks.. Definitely wish there were more high quality off the shelf players for the non-audiophile who doesn't want to use their phone for everything.
Apple iPod! By far. There are some outright strange things about the Sony app like not being able to manage a queue of songs easily without creating an adhoc playlist, the navigation is sometimes frustrating, and the default desktop app they provide to sync songs to the player in a manner that will keep lyrics and song art intact is absolutely atrocious. But pretty much everything else is good and there's nothing else on the market so...
Fiio does have the X5 which has a similar jogwheel but I agree with you that the lack of exponential scrolling does make it annoying. Not sure if that's patent-encumbered (fuck UX patents) or what.
Rockbox does have exponential scrolling, but only supports a limited list of hardware. There is an "unstable port" for the Fiio M3k but that's not what either of us own ;)
Might be a good project for someone here who wants to play with embedded hardware! It's one of those situations where once you get it up and going on a particular set of hardware, you will benefit from a lot of "passive" development from others, both past and future.
iPods have made a bit of a comeback. Checkout r/iPod there's people modding them by adding bluetooth and USB-C. There are adapters to replace the hard drive with MicroSD. (iFlash)
They (iPods) are relatively simple and new replacement parts are readily available. Pick up an old iPod off ebay and install a new battery. It's a fun little project, I've done it a few times now.
This does jump out to me is a surprisingly profound. I was a freshman in college when the iPod first came out. I was a huge Apple fan, but didn't get their move into consumer electronics. It was so expensive. Why weren't they building more cool Macs instead? 10 years later I was putting serious time toward learning how to develop for the App Store. Another 10 years later and that path has had a profound effect on my career and life. Thinking back to the moment my friend Peter showed me the gen 1 iPod he bought on launch day, the vision, progression, and brilliance you can tie back to that product is astounding.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 299 ms ] threadNow there's really no reason to keep it around, as you can get an off-contract used iPhone that is better in every dimension for less money. Still feel a bit sad to see it leave.
I get what you mean though. I think the iPhone SE has taken its place in terms of affordability.
Be honest.
Seemed straight forward to me.
Am I wrong about that?
I guess Apple marketing team didn't want to put it clearly what they are doing.
To me, the subhead "iPod touch will be available while supplies last" succinctly performs double-duty: (1) We discontinued iPod touch, and (2) if you want (another) one, this is your last chance.
Will iPhone some day be quietly, ambiguously sent to the grave in a similar fashion?
HN's title rule is "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait", and corporate press release titles are usually both. For that reason we usually rewrite them.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I have a long train trip coming up. I'll have my iPhone with me, but I'll also bring my iPod shuffles. They're simply better suited to the task than to have to deal with all the compromises of a device that tries to be everything to everyone all the time.
- Vastly superior battery time. In part, because it's not trying to do a million things other than play music.
- Better ergonomically. I can lay in my berth at night with my wired earbuds and listen with a tiny, durable device instead of a large, fragile device. It's not tragic if I roll over on a Shuffle, or drop it out the side of the bed.
- A shuffle on a small train table takes up much less space than an iPhone. Or no space at all, since I can clip it to my clothing.
- To me, the Shuffles just sound better than the phone. I'm sure there are a million blogs that dispute this with all kinds of mathematical blather. But I use the same earbuds with my Shuffles and my iPhone, and the Shuffles just sound better to my ears.
It's probably true that most people just get their music and podcasts through streaming services on their phones though, so perhaps they don't care to keep a niche product around.
I might pick one of these up so I can do that now in color.
They used to have a good algorithm, but because it was truly random, some users complained about hearing the same artist quickly in sequence.
Instead of implementing a list of recently played songs they changed the algorithm to be 'smart' but it's actually quite dumb because it really never plays some songs. Especially when you have only a few artists in the playlist, and some with less songs than others. As I tend to do.
They say it's "more appealing to the human brain" but I think it stinks. I wish they had an option to switch back a truly random one. If I don't like a song I'll skip it anyway. But never presenting some is worse.
https://medium.com/immensity/how-spotifys-shuffle-algorithm-...
And at that point, bam, you have a phone.
You could try to make it "not a phone" by removing the speaker and microphone, but people will occasionally want to play a game, so you'll need the speaker, and someone might want to record speech for note-taking, so you'll need the microphone.
TBH, I'm not sure how you could possibly make a "not a phone" PDA.
Nobody would buy an offline PDA. At least, not enough people to pay for the development of it.
https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk
Gonna hold my breath now, okay? :)
/s
Basically, everything required for third parties to support the devices to the same level that Apple did before discontinuing them.
---
(Getting downvoted for a strong right to repair stance? I wasn't really expecting that here, but OK.)
I still use my 6th generation iPod Nano, mostly for radio, but the usefulness of it is dwindling as more and more stations move away from the FM-band and go digital, it's still a cool device and it also still works with Music/iTunes.
[1] this kind of thing - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1891964717.html
Plus, it's arguably worth risking accidental 911 calls to allow necessary ones. And landlines have had the same risk for decades.
You can't uninstall the dialer. As far as I know you can't even lock the dialer down.
> Plus, it's arguably worth risking accidental 911 calls to allow necessary ones
One of my friends kids (about 5) went through a phase where she was fascinated with calling 911. The iPod Touch became the way to handle this, you could hand her the iPod and know she couldn't dial out. Sure an iPad could work, but this girl had siblings and the parents didn't want to have to buy everybody an ipad.
Kids should be taught about 911 at a very young age anyway. IMO, if they're old enough for an iPod Touch, they're old enough to be taught about 911.
My little cousins (under 12 years old) get a cellular Apple Watch. That allows their parent to always know where they are and can contact them, but prevents the kids from being able to use the internet.
My mom's bf's 6 year old loves sonic and loves playing sonic video on youtube. We were having dinner and it had autoplayed into some naughty sonic furry stuff and we had to change it also while trying to maintain his innocence and not explain things he might not be ready for. lol. This was last year which I think is after youtube really tried to improve video for children but it still happened somehow.
I remember being 9-10 years old and accidentally clicking a popup and learning about genitals. It's not the best way to learn as a kid. It's better coming from their parents.
X10 popup ads claim another victim ;)
those things were everywhere back in the day!
So a sim-less phone would still allow for an emergency call in that sense.
Also they sometimes need to use laptop/desktop for school but that is rare now that most everything works in Safari or there is an app. Even printing etc works great and they love the pencil. They also have mouse and keyboard for them usually for schoolwork.
It's a shame it's being discontinued, it was the perfect first device for children.
Though it won’t be possible to get new iPhone SE 2nd gen for long. At that point, a refurbished or used 11 or XR or SE 2nd gen will not be too much. The latter two should be cheaper than a new iPod Touch.
I have been looking for a cheaper, no-data SIM card to use with 2FA Mules - this is very helpful.
You literally can't "just buy one" that's new to give to a kid.
Chiefly, it weighs 88g vs the 138g for the iPhone - a considerable difference for a child.
Some apps are a little cramped on what is now considered a small screen though (e.g. TikTok UI takes up most of the screen).
I got one for my kid as a camera. Why? Because it costs as much as many kids cameras, while they're absolute trash, and the camera module/software in the iPod takes really high quality photos that are easy to export or manipulate.
Old iPhones are inexpensive, but you cannot disable emergency calling for a good reason, but that good reason still doesn't make you want to hand one to a 7-year-old as a glorified camera.
Or maybe they see that as belonging to the iPad mini’s purpose.
The tablet also has more educational value as it supports handwriting and drawing, though it comes at the cost of not being pocket-size (adding inconvenience for users who just want to listen to music).
Mini has the small bezels, USB-C port, supports the magnetically charged stylus, and has an A15 with 4 GB RAM, so it's priced more in line with the iPad Air even though it's the small one.
I used to have an iPad Mini, I think 3? Whichever model was before it got Touch ID. Back then it was a smaller and cheaper version of the normal iPad, more recently it's moved to the middle of the line (but below the "Pro" versions).
I think what I had was a 2 purchased after the 3 came out, someplace was clearing them out for around $150 off even though it was practically the same device except it took half a second longer to unlock. Pretty good deal, eventually got demoted to kitchen recipe screen.
I think the iPad Mini makes sense as a product line in general. Which is being a smaller screen (and thus cheaper) iPad Air. It does work as an option, but so do iPads.
iPod touches also sent iMessages, since all you need is an Apple ID.
https://support.apple.com/guide/ipod-touch/set-up-messages-i...
That's why I said "having an iPod touch keeps the kid from getting bullied by the "Blue Message" crowd" - It was the device you could buy a kid and not worry about the green messages.
iPhones without phone contracts can still call 911.
1) although having had to make a 911 from Car Play, I wouldn't worry about accidents, but it was concerning how long it took to make the damn call.
Cost. $199, new.
I wish I learned the trick of "buying quality devices that are a few years old and using them until end-of-life" ages ago (also works great with laptops, though Apple's ones tend to stay expensive despite their age, so it works better with Thinkpads), I've spent so much money on brand new devices, which did not benefit me in any meaningful way.
More to the thread: I too am puzzled by the idea of giving my child a device that allows them to rot their brain but doesn't allow us to call each other. Seems like it should be the other way around—I keep hearing how the people who run big tech companies don't let their kids use technology, because they know how harmful it is.
edit: i should add that this is also one of the reasons apple has the "voice only" music subscription.
You can tell when he’s not just selling something, but believes that what he says he is selling is what he is selling.
He knew full well an iPad Mini was coming the year after. He just had to sell what was on the shelves now.
The struggling computer company first got into people's pockets with a device that played music (a key insight - people make emotional contact with media). That position then bought them the time to finance development of know-how around pocket computers in plain sight. And then finally when the timing was just right and nobody expected it, they basically leveraged that position to deliver that pocket computer to the masses.
Instead of selling the watch as an add-on to the phone, the watch could be the central device and the screen of the iPod could be brought out when the voice assistants come to their rare limits.
There is no need for a phone when better screens are available most of the times (e.g. at the desk, the car or the tv).
I have tried using the new iOS Focus and Downtime features to make my iPhone work a similar way (hide all the time-sucking apps at certain times of day etc), but having a dedicated device for the purpose is much simpler and much more effective.
On my iPad, even messages with friends, emails, etc are all blocked. Not even red badges on the app icons. Nothing that can possibly prompt or notify me in any way. I don't think I could get away with that on my main phone
I have a Sony NW-A45, but there's a few models in the NW-A line-up that are attention worthy.
I also prefer single purpose devices for retro gaming and taking photos.
To me the iPod died with the introduction of the Touch which was a cheap iPhone, that had lower quality standards even in the area of sound quality. iPhones have no headphone jack so they're not suitable listening devices if you care about audio quality (or are willing to carry an external DAC). Apple Music makes nothing about managing music on any Apple device great.
M1 Macs are doing well, and still waiting to see what happens with iPadOS and if it can live up the the 'OS' name in terms of creation not consumption apps.
The $9 official headphone dongle is a superior DAC to most audiophile products and has a bigger R&D budget than that entire industry. Same goes for Google’s USBC dongle.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...
You can still carry around an amp if you have very power hungry headphones though. Personally, I don’t think I could ABX lossy audio while outside dodging cars in the crosswalk.
I ended up having to buy Bluetooth headphones just to listen to music on my iPhone which has its own problems because they have to be charged all the time.
I am currently looking around for a standalone digital player, no market, no apps, no fancy anything, with a wired headphone (currently looking at KZ EDX Pros, despite the crinacle drama). Might end up getting another sandisk and doing a mod on it to hold 1TB. Those things are damn near bullet proof but their secret weakness is my washing machine
I agree that a relatively simple, relatively low-priced media player with great build quality would have a market - but Apple would be cannibalising it's 'fitness-oriented' market if they allowed both the Shuffle and the Watch to exist.
Until then, if you want to use it as an 'iPod', it's just another expense on top of the iPhone you already have that's your 'iPod'.
Apple cancelling the iPod line completely is frankly dumb. I know at least a dozen parents who use these for their kids.
Also, what's with all the people suggesting parents just buy an iPhone with no sim? Y'all realize that the cheapest iPhone is twice as much as the $199 iPod Touch? :/
Just to highlight this point, an iPhone is required for activation. You can't activate with any other Apple device. You can use a family member's iPhone.
Especially if you're on Wi-Fi and I believe on cellular (we still don't have it here in 3rd world) you can just go hiking with the watch and stream your music on Bluetooth without phone.
Same for messaging, fitness tracking, and voice calls. I think it's enough for that device.
For a company their size I don’t think they’re wrong. It’s never going to move the needle any noticeable amount for them.
Or you know, Garmin, split-off your wearables division in separate company, Apple buys it, Apple takes some Garmin thingies into Apple Watch, create Apple Watch Pro based on Garmin Hardware and sports functions, add Apple software and we're golden. This is a business advice, if Garmin/Apple decide to do this, compensate me. /s
I don't consider myself an Apple fanboy, but the iPod was a rock solid product that got all of the little things right. Given that the market for standalone DAPs is tiny because most people today just use their phones and music streaming apps, it's unlikely that we'll ever see a music player that compares to it.
We're in a Renaissance age of mobile listening thanks to ChiFi. I love carrying around a second device that has no persistent connection to the internet, no notifications, and can drive any headphones I throw at it... With sideloaded Audible and Tidal to boot.
Media used to be this easy and pleasurable to consume before phones got it the way.
I'm also really into single-purpose electronics. My whole library is FLAC, so these players should be right up my alley. Except they tend to be heavy and expensive, and when it comes to UI, either they're using Android poorly, with incredibly bad battery life (HiBy R5/R6, Fiio M9, A&K anything), or they're using a custom UI with pre-iPod UX sensibilities. And even when they use Android, they try to graft their own UI onto it, so that in the end you have the worst of both worlds -- just watch what happens to the volume settings on any Android-based HiBy DAP after connecting with Bluetooth.
The communities that buy this stuff are much more into the technical and theoretical sound quality than how it actually comes together as a product. The marketing reflects that; the product pages are all litanies of incremental DAC processor upgrades, circuit diagrams, and cryptic audio codecs. And because this is what folks care about, it's hard to find reviewers who even mention into UX.
If you have a rec I'm all ears, because I'm on the verge of resuscitating my original Pixel just for this.
I'm using an AK SR25 right now and absolutely love it. It's pretty small.
Can it drive Bluetooth headphones? That's the only reason I no longer use my Xduoo X3.
If I had something similar (small, minimal screen, dual TF slots) that worked with Bluetooth, I'd use it all the time.
For Bluetooth usage a year or two ago I would have recommended the Shanling M0. All these devices have awful touchscreens and the M0 is no exception, but it's tiny, light, and has long battery life. Unfortunately, in this space the manufacturers tend to discontinue products in favor of new ones within a year.
- candybar form factor
- OLED screen
- 2 TF slots (ideal) or 1 TF slot (must support at least 200GB card)
But you already have a phone (I guess) so the cost you're competing against is zero.
Also I think they playback with hardware don’t they? They aren’t running the CPU. It uses a trickle of charge just like your iPod.
Can you point to anything in particular? I bought a Chinese mp3 player earlier this year and it's a piece of junk.
I also prefer it not to have internet, notifications, etc, so that sounds perfect.
The thing is thick and dissipates so much heat that they have an official active cooling stand to go with it. How is that portable? What makes the whole situation funnier is that they spin it as a feature, calling it "Desktop tier heat dissipation" (you can't make this up).
In contrast, Shanling's M9 still looks normal.
Can you recommend an audio player with a better UX than the default Sony app?
Exactly, so I was curious if you had replaced the Sony player app by another app while still using Sony hardware?
Rockbox does have exponential scrolling, but only supports a limited list of hardware. There is an "unstable port" for the Fiio M3k but that's not what either of us own ;)
Might be a good project for someone here who wants to play with embedded hardware! It's one of those situations where once you get it up and going on a particular set of hardware, you will benefit from a lot of "passive" development from others, both past and future.
They (iPods) are relatively simple and new replacement parts are readily available. Pick up an old iPod off ebay and install a new battery. It's a fun little project, I've done it a few times now.