I get that #OWS could use some work on the message. But isn't their whole point to be outside traditional systems of capitalism and structure?
It's like saying, this anarchist mob isn't very organized. Well, yeah.
That being said, I agree with Meetup guy that sites like Kickstarter are exactly the kind of peer-2-peer marketplace that could help reshape our economy and empower the 99%.
Quite ironic, in my view - because it's that singleminded pursuit of maximum profit in all situations that leads the corporate mind to consider the current patent system a Good Thing. Not because it furthers society or any such weakminded claptrap, but because it affords one more place where rent-seeking behavior is not only condoned but explicitly encouraged.
It's my fervent opinion that rent-seeking behavior and similar economic dysfunction is one of chief underlying problems with economy and with society as a whole. OWS isn't objecting to rich people in general - just to rich people whose modus operandi is to drain resources from everybody while never giving any back. There's no thought for the larger consequences, and the law permits it only because most people have so far been more or less well enough off that they don't need to bother with it.
It's all coming to a head now, though. Or so I damn well hope.
I agree wholeheartedly with your bitterness here; this is precisely my beef with the patent system as misapplied to software - but the truth of the matter is that mechanisms like Kickstarter would be a great way out of our societal bind, while their actual success makes them a target for leeches.
Yeah, unfortunately 50% of the companies present at that thing were glorified advertising agencies so despite the 1 or 2 "startups for social change" the vast majority didn't look very different ("morally") from the investment bankers.
Not having a coherent pitch is a defining element of OWS.
Instead, the whole point of OWS is to make sure OWS persists, in the hopes that people keep hearing their complaint that the government is in cahoots with big business. (whatever benefit may arise from this)
The moment someone sets up a unified OWS platform, with demands, the movement will be over. (for good or ill.)
The funny thing to me is that their core message (government is corrupt and helping big business) is essentially the core complaint of the Tea Partiers, as well.
The complaints are similar, the proposed solutions are different. Broadly, the OWS crowd proposes to solve the problem of corrupt government by making it bigger and more powerful so it would hopefully take on corrupt Wall Street, the Tea Party crowd would make corrupt government smaller and less powerful, and a significant percentage of them also are in favor of making it impossible for businesses to get "too big to fail".
I didn't see any signs on OWS calling for "bigger, more powerful government".
Changing a tax level on bankers doesn't change the size of government - spending does that. And OWS wants to cut from a bigger slice (defense) than the tea party seems to (domestic discretionary).
A lot (not all, maybe not most, but some of the louder ones) of the OWS people are calling for regulation of student debt, universal minimum income, and/or universal healthcare.
Given the existing government entanglement into student debt and healthcare, I don't think calls for reform are necessarily "bigger government". And I haven't seen much call for universal minimum income, raising the already-existent minimum wage, maybe.
Point is, this isn't about something so stupidly 1-dimensional as "the size of gov't". That's just something to tell the rubes.
A government that taxes more, forgives more debt at its whim, attacks bankers in new ways, etc, is a government exercising more power than it was before. If the protesters are not calling for government to intervene more muscularly than it is now, who exactly are they demonstrating to?
If you want to claim that the government is already hip deep into everything and already has a great deal of power, and consequently bears a very large degree of responsibility for the problems we're in today, well, you're singing my song, but you might want to run that claim past the OWS protesters. I don't think you're going to find too many who would accept that defense. I grant you they're an amorphous lot, but claiming they're largely libertarians wouldn't pass the smell test. (I know 'em when I see 'em...)
I'm not claiming they're largely libertarians. I'm saying all of the libertarians-since-2009 are either plutocrats in disguise or being taken for a ride. Where are they on military spending? How about the Republicans blocking Obama's proposal to cut the payroll tax? How about immigration policy and drug policy?
The only time I hear "small government" extolled as a virtue is in defense of policies that screw the little guy.
The OWS people are, once again, not campaigning for "more/less government intervention". They're campaigning against most government actions being driven by lobbyists and campaign donations.
Exactly. The reason that OWS isn't making any specific demands is to remind everyone that those who keep asking 'what's the pitch' are part of the problem. Honestly if you can't identify the problems in this country on your own then you're not paying attention.
Also they are upset about many things failing not just one. And defining a pitch for an organic movement worldwide with hundreds of thousands of people is much much harder than creating one for a startup with a few people.
Shorter NY Technologists: We have no theory of social change.
Which, you know, is fine. If you think the way to change the world is with your "subscription-based site for fashion essentials" I say let a thousand flowers bloom. But you should think twice before mouthing off to the NY Observer, because dismissively asking "what does #OWS even stand for" sounds a lot like "what is Twitter even good for". It's a marker that you haven't been paying attention.
Down at Zucotti Park, people understand that in addition to the decisions that people make individually as consumers, there are also decisions we make collectively. And there's more to politics, which is just the name for those decisions, than policy. Ten-point plans are nice, but the #OWS protesters are making a powerful move just by drawing attention to a set of issues that haven't been on the mainstream agenda. Middle class incomes have stagnated, social mobility is down, Wall Street appears to be back at business with little restructuring, unemployment is at 9%. The protests say, so a political system otherwise ill-disposed to address those issues, that they _matter_, and that there is a constituency to fix them. To their fellow citizens, the protesters are saying "these are serious problems, and we should care about them." If you can convince people of that last bit, and #OWS has momentum on that score, the policies will follow.
OWS not having a message is not an accident or a lack of planning...it is the plan. They're taking a page from the book of Obama(and other politicians) by making OWS a blank slate on to which to project your anger and unhappiness with the "current system". This became clear to me after I became upset with their slogan "we are the 99%". I'm upset because its an attempt to steal my voice. I am part of the 99%--but I am not with them. They are attempting to speak on behalf of everyone and what easier way to do that than to not have a list of demands that can only serve to alienate your supporters and fork the movement?
To me this says more about the attitudes of technologists than anything about OWS. I also note that there is no Occupy Palo Alto going on.
Tech startups are at the bleeding edge of capitalism where it is a fun game. Which is great to see The System work! We need a pluralist economy with all types of organizations. Startups have to challenge existing hierarchy in certain dimensions (business model), but strictly follow existing hierarchy in others (profitability, exit strategy). I'll cite the pg-Monsanto event here.
There will always be a need to reconcile whatever structure exists in our cultural hierarchy with the broad needs of everyone that has to bend to the hierarchy we've chosen (or let happen). Athenian style democratic action is great way to do that.
It is more meaningful to measure how cultural hierarchy responds to the incoherence that is real democracy (considering every person's desires equally) rather than how people's desires submit to the existing hierarchy.
I keep hearing that they don't have a message but it seems like they want:
1. Jobs
2. Their houses back (or a house period)
3. Taxes on the rich
4. Financial Regulation
5. A government that represents the people
I agree at some point they'll need a better "pitch" but we should remember that this movement is much more organic than a startup so it takes a lot more time to unify thousands of people worldwide under one idea. Especially when this movement is about many things failing not just one.
Exactly, I agree 100%. People are out there because they are not sure what to do but know that something very, very wrong.
I think it would be helpful if they had a leader, somebody who could articulate the thoughts of people who are there for the right reasons (to show their distaste of the current state of things).
It is really frustrating to hear the beneficiaries of this corruption try to dismiss the protesters as "lazy" when I think it takes more to get your butt outside and stay there than it does to go to work and do some busy paper pushing.
Side note on the corruption of this country, look at the bay bridge as an example. It's been over 20 years since the 89 earthquake and the bridge is still not completed. How can countries like China and France and Switzerland manage to finish much larger and more complicated bridges in under a year. Corruption at it's finest.
A Soviet minister once entertained a visiting Romanian minister, and the visitor was duly impressed with the incredible luxury in which the Russian lived.
"How do you manage to gather such wealth together, my friend?"
The Russian just smiled and led his visitor to the window and opened his arms wide. "Oh, my friend, it isn't difficult for a man with connections and a little spirit. See that bridge out there? I issued each and every construction permit myself, and for every beam, every worker, and every rivet, I received a little something. And here is the result."
The Romanian was quiet impressed, and thanked the Russian profusely for sharing his technique.
Some years later, the Russian had the chance to return the visit, and came to Bucharest. To his great surprise, his erstwhile protegé lived in a sumptuous mansion and was able to put up an even finer meal than the one they'd shared back in the day.
"I am very impressed, my friend," he said. "You seem to have learned quite well."
The Romanian chuckled and led the Russian to the window. "Ha, yes - see that bridge out there?"
"Your planetwide pseudo-anarchistic emergent heterarchical meta-movement lacks a clear organisational structure" isn't the most well thought out criticism, whatever you think of their aims.
"If I wanted to go about it the right way I would get a group of people together, break off from Occupy Wall Street, call it something else, rebrand it and start the right way, with people who maybe have some connections in Washington.” (lobbyists)
25 comments
[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 61.6 ms ] threadIt's like saying, this anarchist mob isn't very organized. Well, yeah.
That being said, I agree with Meetup guy that sites like Kickstarter are exactly the kind of peer-2-peer marketplace that could help reshape our economy and empower the 99%.
As per usual, these companies don't share a single line of code, and Kickstarter was in business for years before this guy's patent was even approved.
But somehow, he can claim to have invented crowdfunding for creative projects -- USING A COMPUTER.
BS.
It's my fervent opinion that rent-seeking behavior and similar economic dysfunction is one of chief underlying problems with economy and with society as a whole. OWS isn't objecting to rich people in general - just to rich people whose modus operandi is to drain resources from everybody while never giving any back. There's no thought for the larger consequences, and the law permits it only because most people have so far been more or less well enough off that they don't need to bother with it.
It's all coming to a head now, though. Or so I damn well hope.
I agree wholeheartedly with your bitterness here; this is precisely my beef with the patent system as misapplied to software - but the truth of the matter is that mechanisms like Kickstarter would be a great way out of our societal bind, while their actual success makes them a target for leeches.
Instead, the whole point of OWS is to make sure OWS persists, in the hopes that people keep hearing their complaint that the government is in cahoots with big business. (whatever benefit may arise from this)
The moment someone sets up a unified OWS platform, with demands, the movement will be over. (for good or ill.)
The funny thing to me is that their core message (government is corrupt and helping big business) is essentially the core complaint of the Tea Partiers, as well.
Changing a tax level on bankers doesn't change the size of government - spending does that. And OWS wants to cut from a bigger slice (defense) than the tea party seems to (domestic discretionary).
Point is, this isn't about something so stupidly 1-dimensional as "the size of gov't". That's just something to tell the rubes.
If you want to claim that the government is already hip deep into everything and already has a great deal of power, and consequently bears a very large degree of responsibility for the problems we're in today, well, you're singing my song, but you might want to run that claim past the OWS protesters. I don't think you're going to find too many who would accept that defense. I grant you they're an amorphous lot, but claiming they're largely libertarians wouldn't pass the smell test. (I know 'em when I see 'em...)
The only time I hear "small government" extolled as a virtue is in defense of policies that screw the little guy.
The OWS people are, once again, not campaigning for "more/less government intervention". They're campaigning against most government actions being driven by lobbyists and campaign donations.
Citation needed, jerf. And when you look at whatever venue got this idea into your head, look even more closely at the owners of that venue.
Which, you know, is fine. If you think the way to change the world is with your "subscription-based site for fashion essentials" I say let a thousand flowers bloom. But you should think twice before mouthing off to the NY Observer, because dismissively asking "what does #OWS even stand for" sounds a lot like "what is Twitter even good for". It's a marker that you haven't been paying attention.
Down at Zucotti Park, people understand that in addition to the decisions that people make individually as consumers, there are also decisions we make collectively. And there's more to politics, which is just the name for those decisions, than policy. Ten-point plans are nice, but the #OWS protesters are making a powerful move just by drawing attention to a set of issues that haven't been on the mainstream agenda. Middle class incomes have stagnated, social mobility is down, Wall Street appears to be back at business with little restructuring, unemployment is at 9%. The protests say, so a political system otherwise ill-disposed to address those issues, that they _matter_, and that there is a constituency to fix them. To their fellow citizens, the protesters are saying "these are serious problems, and we should care about them." If you can convince people of that last bit, and #OWS has momentum on that score, the policies will follow.
Tech startups are at the bleeding edge of capitalism where it is a fun game. Which is great to see The System work! We need a pluralist economy with all types of organizations. Startups have to challenge existing hierarchy in certain dimensions (business model), but strictly follow existing hierarchy in others (profitability, exit strategy). I'll cite the pg-Monsanto event here.
There will always be a need to reconcile whatever structure exists in our cultural hierarchy with the broad needs of everyone that has to bend to the hierarchy we've chosen (or let happen). Athenian style democratic action is great way to do that.
It is more meaningful to measure how cultural hierarchy responds to the incoherence that is real democracy (considering every person's desires equally) rather than how people's desires submit to the existing hierarchy.
1. Jobs 2. Their houses back (or a house period) 3. Taxes on the rich 4. Financial Regulation 5. A government that represents the people
I agree at some point they'll need a better "pitch" but we should remember that this movement is much more organic than a startup so it takes a lot more time to unify thousands of people worldwide under one idea. Especially when this movement is about many things failing not just one.
I think it would be helpful if they had a leader, somebody who could articulate the thoughts of people who are there for the right reasons (to show their distaste of the current state of things).
It is really frustrating to hear the beneficiaries of this corruption try to dismiss the protesters as "lazy" when I think it takes more to get your butt outside and stay there than it does to go to work and do some busy paper pushing.
Side note on the corruption of this country, look at the bay bridge as an example. It's been over 20 years since the 89 earthquake and the bridge is still not completed. How can countries like China and France and Switzerland manage to finish much larger and more complicated bridges in under a year. Corruption at it's finest.
"How do you manage to gather such wealth together, my friend?"
The Russian just smiled and led his visitor to the window and opened his arms wide. "Oh, my friend, it isn't difficult for a man with connections and a little spirit. See that bridge out there? I issued each and every construction permit myself, and for every beam, every worker, and every rivet, I received a little something. And here is the result."
The Romanian was quiet impressed, and thanked the Russian profusely for sharing his technique.
Some years later, the Russian had the chance to return the visit, and came to Bucharest. To his great surprise, his erstwhile protegé lived in a sumptuous mansion and was able to put up an even finer meal than the one they'd shared back in the day.
"I am very impressed, my friend," he said. "You seem to have learned quite well."
The Romanian chuckled and led the Russian to the window. "Ha, yes - see that bridge out there?"
The Russian just squinted.
"No."
"If I wanted to go about it the right way I would get a group of people together, break off from Occupy Wall Street, call it something else, rebrand it and start the right way, with people who maybe have some connections in Washington.” (lobbyists)