Ask HN: Tesla is making us move or quit. Would I get severance?
Hello, I was hired as a remote full-stack engineer at Tesla during the pandemic. We were just told that remote employment agreements (mine was over email, not in my contract) are void, and we have to move to a Tesla office by August. This is essentially impossible for me until January 2023 (at which point I'd be happy to move). I need to make a decision by Friday. Do you think I would get severance if I tell them I refuse to relocate?
Edit: For context, Elon Musk sent company-wide emails last week about everyone having to go back to the office. A few days later, he announced layoffs. Many suspect the unexpected call for in-person work was a way to get people to quit and avoid paying severance for layoffs.
246 comments
[ 4.1 ms ] story [ 248 ms ] threadMake up a sign, "tesla Inc remote stack office" for your residence.....make it visible online only, web site etc....
Elon's history has shown that he thinks work is more important than relationships
It worked beautifully.
Having worked at places that take the data-driven ethos to an extreme, there are very straightforward pitfalls to ignoring other kinds of reasoning. Those other kinds of reasoning have pitfalls too, obviously (hence the popularity of data-driven decision-making). But this is exactly the type of thing where I wouldn't expect data to be especially helpful. People keep trumpeting studies claiming to measure productivity increases from WFH, and I do believe there's some signal there, as I've been a big proponent of hybrid workplaces my entire career.
But the idea that productivity can be measured in a meaningful, complete way, and that that applies broadly to every company, particularly creative knowledge work, is facially ludicrous and not (yet) supported by the data. A decade from now, researchers run careful comparative analyses on companies that went full-remote, along with trying to build narrower measures of productivity, and hunting the data for natural experiments. The idea that we already have data-driven certainty around this is laughable.
As an example of how this works: I work at an applied research firm, and as much as I enjoy some of the QoL changes from full-remote, there is no question that my and my colleagues' ability to collaborate creatively has significantly suffered. How do you meaningfully measure the change in our "productivity"? I'm sure we're all shipping more code, but since when is more LoC better? How do you immediately measure the cost of a system with less innovative experiments, and how do you incorporate stochastic and time-lag factors?
These factors are very opaque to industry-wide data-centric analysis, so we can't be dismissive of other forms of reasoning, particularly those that understand each data point more intimately (if less rigorously).
Agreements usually can’t be voided just like that, no matter how smart elon musk thinks he is.
Musk does not strike me as the kind of person to offer severance and Tesla is looking to reduce it's workforce by 10%. Unfortunately, I think this is likely a shitty way to consider you to have abandoned your job rather than having to fire you outright.
Not everyone has ready access to such a lawyer. In that situation posting here seems quite reasonable as an alternative vs consulting a random lawyer.
The other thing to do obviously is talk to them about how it's industry standard for companies to provide financial help for relocation- that should also give you a good idea how serious they are.
Personally, I wouldn't want to work there anymore, but would force them to lay me off.
[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-tesla-suing-an-ex...
Ymmv, but it’s got some good general recommendations (eg contact the bar assoc) along with California specific ones. Good luck!
No fee to use the service in my state.
Spend the money; get a real lawyer.
edit: why is this downvoted. I was given this choice in two places, lol.
I mean, guidance, for one. "Talk to a lawyer" might not even have occurred to them yet despite it being the most common piece of advice in this thread.
If there's one common theme I've gathered from reading this thread, beyond "talk to a lawyer, it's that you shouldn't make a decision or feel pressured to take an action – those are for your employer to do.
I personally think gathering information without telegraphing any intent (or known issues with moving, etc) is the right move for now.
This is right now at the top of HN front page. I've been on internet long enough to know click-bait and outrage-bait.
> We've had multiple threads like this for various companies recently.
Please post one of those threads that reached the top of HN in an hour. If you remove Tesla or remote work, it wouldn't be on the front page. Period.
So, downvote it and move on to something you actually find interesting.
This is not the solution you prob want but if you are interested in a remote okay, top 15 levels.fyi comp role hit me up and let’s see if we can get you in where I’m at. Email in profile
Off topic but does this mean the pandemic is over? I’ve had a concern in the back of my mind that next winter we could end up back into lock downs. I really don’t want to be right, I would rather my employer force me back in than have this go on any longer.
However, luckily my employer seems to be committed to allowing us to work flexibly remote.
OTOH, the pandemic is probably over as a big public health problem, which doesn't mean we won't have local, short-lived lockdowns in the USA.
Barring a variant that substantially evades vaccine immunity protection from severe outcomes, pretty much yes.
Even the federal government is making its workers come in despite being a close covid contact (like yours kids are actively sick) unless you test positive (which they won't pay for).
As others have also suggested, talking to an employment lawyer who can do a close reading of your contract would be Useful in this case too.
He won't show up to the office in August, but promises to do so by January. Until then, he keeps programming as he always has. If they want to fire him, that's fine, let them fire him so that he gets the full severance package (unemployment benefits, etc. etc.)
The employee will often need to sign a statement of resignation (Termination by mutual agreement), but the employer can absolutely initiate and send them the paperwork.
If you refuse, the resignation paperwork goes away and is replaced with firing paperwork, which you are not required to sign.
Here is some additional info: https://swartz-legal.com/what-are-the-different-types-of-sep...
If you were my employee and I said you had a shift at say 8am and you never showed up then I'd just fire you _with cause_. There's no need for it to count as a resignation.
Looking at Texas's site [1], they explicitly say if your employer asks for a resignation it counts as being fired. There are also a bunch of ways for quitting to be eligible (i.e. "Significant changes in hiring agreement").
[1]: https://www.twc.texas.gov/jobseekers/eligibility-benefit-amo...
This, at worst you can claim UI while you look for a new role if they terminate your contract and lay you off; I think Elon just revealed his hand to anyone who thinks he is some sort of benevolent environmentalist playing the VC game--he is a tech oligarch and just like all of them will use whatever talking point to serve and ensure he achieves his end. I'm sure there are reasons that are not clear to those of us outside of Tesla Execs for why they are enforcing this, my guess is real estate losses are starting to take a toll as the stock price keeps dropping, but from what I'm hearing is that they are still busing people in from Woodland Park to Fremont because of the lack of parking spots in Fremont which has been a problem since Model 3 deployment, what exactly are they trying to achieve here?
Not just that, but just the unnecessary use of fossil fuels to ensure people commute into the E. Bay is so absurd especially for a company who's very mission statement is to transition out of it. And if they really felt this was a mission critical thing then offer significant employee discounts on used/old Tesla inventory and offer free super charger access to offset the energy impacts that this will incur.
I've always said and commended that Elon is more PT Barnum than he is Edison or Telsa, and it's clear that this move is a strategic one just like when they laid of ~14% of the entire work force during the disastrous Model 3 launch. This is also why I think that unionizing Tesla was a mistake during Model 3 but I have come to the realization that after the horrid safety record and intimidation tactics that have been in practice ever since for those who have been trying to unionize that it likely will have to happen.
It's crazy because in Giga-Shanghai, during the lockdowns no less, he was able to get people to show up and work 12 hour shifts 6 days a week [0].
I fear his megalomania has really gotten the best of him and he thinks that he can do this in California, too. Texas will probably let him and I fully anticipate that Giga Austin will probably be the new HQ where they will replicate the assembly lines of S/X/3/Y they built in Fremont which will likely be eventually phased out of vehicle production as a result of favourable legislation in TX because he can define what 'just cause' terminations are since it's an at-will State and Abbot is a total political-whore: see NRA stance.
I was onboard with Tesla's mission during COVID and supported Fremont remaining open during all that drama, but something went really wrong when Giga Shanghai started to set the new benchmark and US standards on labour were now somehow supposed to reflect what is essentially slave labour based working conditions.
0: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-giga-shanghai-housing-second...
[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-ruthlessly-f...
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon...
[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-19/tesla-bla...
During the pandemic I worked from home for about a year but had to return to office eventually (and got covid-19 twice, luckily it wasn’t too serious). However, some folks were accomodated to work remotely permanently depending on their situation though a few were forced to quit.
I can assure you that no manager is going to contradict Elon Musk's demands on behalf of a an employee. That's a shortcut to a pink slip.
I think if this requirement is in good faith (well, as good as it can be given they are changing their minds on remote employment) and all you need is a few months before you can move, they could add some flexibility to this entirely self-imposed deadline.
On the other hand, I'd also start looking for another job.
sorry you have to lawyer up but you have to lawyer up.
Aside from that, I agree with everyone else, talk to a lawyer today. Based on what I am reading I think this looks like a potential constructive dismissal situation.
The fact that you're willing to relocate by Jan also shows you're willing to play ball with them. If that is in fact how you feel, it's possible that your lawyer will encourage you to tell them so, as if they refuse they start to look unreasonable (and hence, just disguising the dismissal).
Still, talk to a lawyer today.
One thing I don't think you should do is quit. That will absolve Tesla of all unemployment responsibilities, potentially severance, etc. If they want to fire you, make them do it. I think you should save this email (print a couple of copies too).
You do not need to "make a decision" - just tell them you're happy to come to the office but due to personal obligations you cannot do so until January 2023 and leave it at that. Continue to reiterate this to Tesla. Tesla likely wants you to "make a decision" (and is pressuring you) so that you voluntarily quit and they don't owe you anything. Continue to do your job during your normal work hours. Respond to emails and instant messages. If you lose access to a system, send an email and ask to have access restored so you can continue to work. Document these interactions.
-edit-
Continue to work, even if they appear to "ghost" you. If you lose all of your system access, send emails and call phone numbers and document each of these interactions. Depending on how far you take this and how far things go, you may be able to recoup wages.
For example: (Thursday, June 9th 2022 8:55 am, called my manager's phone and asked if they could assist in restoring access to my email account).
Also, check out the HN Who is Hiring thread :)
-- edit --
Your employers EAP program should typically offer free legal consultations with a lawyer they recommend. EAP calls are typically keep private from your employer.
One view here is that if Musk can convince 10% of their staff to quit with this announcement he'll save lots of money (by not paying severance packages and other stuff)!
He's got lots of money, you don't need to save it for him.
Isn't constructive dismissal just a way to get unemployment, and you would get unemployment anyways with a layoff or involuntary termination?
However, if they were "constructively dismissed" that is treated as a layoff/involuntary termination and the employee can get unemployment.
Note that the OP mentioned that their remote work agreement was voided. They weren't constructively dismissed, it sounds like they were actually terminated. (A company can't simply decide to unilaterally void part of an employment agreement without voiding the entire agreement. That's not how contracts work. )
Either they will either quit voluntarily (stupid) or they will be terminated.
They haven't been terminated because they are still working until August at least. It sounds like they were given until Friday to sign a revised employment contract without remote work or the company will take action.
Constructive dismissal usually comes up for hourly workers that stop being scheduled but aren't fired. For a salary employee it is usually cut and dry, either the employer is sending you a check or they aren't.
I want to nitpick you on this as I know you probably don't mean it but others might be confused by it. There is no way in which Elon Musk personally gets money from this. Elon doesn't have money other than the stock shares he sold. Most of his net value is still in the value of Tesla itself. His announcement of layoffs caused him to lose money.
Additionally if Tesla needed money, there would be no way to provide it as he doesn't have any money to provide it with.
It's not a plausible explanation for Musk's actions. I would be inclined to take his word at face value, that he genuinely believes that remote work is less productive than face to face work at Tesla.
I wouldn't be surprised if people who said they prefer not to come back to the office, will just be given the same severance package. OP should ask HR about it.
High operating cost/productivity = layoffs + back to office.
His engineering teams often learn about projects from his tweets. I’m pretty sure so does HR.
Personal automobiles are the worse possible thing for the environment. End cars. Let's get real public transit back. Hyperloop is a lie to kill existing public transit efforts. So many people have documented that so many things have issues. Yes electric cars are good, but not much better than Plugin Hybrids.
The US shrugs at such an idea and keeps buying 17 million cars a year. Even Norway buys cars (although most are electric cars now). When cars are sold, they should be EVs.
I guess those of us that live in rural areas should just bike 100s of km everywhere then.
It's always amusing to see these hyperbolic, clearly unrealistic statements on here. I wonder what's going through the head of someone like you...
(Among other things, they have road topologies that make buses and bikes completely infeasible.)
If the hilly San Francisco can have lots of bikes and buses (…and cable cars and street cars and light rail and commuter rail) then so can most cities.
But downtown doesn’t need bikes. There’s amble public transit and everything is close by. Most people I know who bike use it for longer distances, eg the base of Bernal Heights to downtown via mission+market. Or going from Caltrain to sunset.
SF is compact, and has a few main drags where it makes sense to have trollies / bus lines. It also has a well-defined city center, so a hub and spoke transit system mostly works there.
In contrast, public transit doesn't even really make sense in South Bay. It was (mostly) laid out when public transit was common, but now there are multiple mini-downtown areas without train service, and many of the tracks have been ripped out.
If the edge cases mostly only affected people you didn't like how much would you care about solving them.
Exactly.
You forgot the tiny detail that public transit sucks bad in most countries (and you won't fix it with government and unions) and it won't get you where you need to go unless you live in the very center of a city.
Getting a job at Tesla to accelerate electrification of cars is a lot more within someone's personal control than somehow enacting the political will to change legislation and funding away from personal vehicles and towards public transit.
But I guess just making HN comments about it is a more feel-good easy solution.
I'd also suggest examining your perspective. Highways and roads are also public transit. It's a non-sequitur to suggest that highways aren't public transit yet something like bikes or bike lanes are.
Unfortunately we've been convinced by big government that we need highways, highway builders, giant departments of transportation, car insurance, tires, gasoline and gas stations, the actual cars themselves, oil changes, AAA, and all of these other industries at the scale that we have them now. It's just a giant jobs program.
If we built medium-density, mixed use neighborhoods you wouldn't need a gasoline or electric car to walk a few blocks to a local grocery store. It's manufactured spending. That's why there are so many advertisements and BIG GOVERNMENT programs.
If we cared about being efficient or cost-effective we'd just build things differently. But we don't care about that. While electric cars are "better" for c02 emissions than gasoline powered cars (and more fun to drive IMO), it's like doubling down on a solution for a problem that we can just not have by not driving so much and having cars.
It's really frustrating when I read comments where people act incredulous at the idea of not spending billions and billions of dollars every year on cars and associated government programs when you could just walk down the street instead. Can you still have a car to drive to the countryside? Yea definitely. Do we literally need to design society around a gigantic SUV so you can drive to Costco and pretend you are saving money buying in bulk? No.
I suggest exploring outside cities and widening your horizons. You apparently don't know much about the world.
Also even if implemented, hyperloop isn't for transport inside cities. It's for intermediate distances that are only a little too short to travel by plane with but too far for rapid travel on train/car. Elon was never interested in implementing hyperloop anyway. So this is a red herring.
Car companies has a huge history of damaging public transit infrastructure goals in cities to further their cars. In LA car companies literally bought rail car lines and turned them into buses.
Hyper loop is absolutely an interest of Elon but yes it is a red herring. He’s doing it to distract from other goals so more people want teslas. Eg the Las Vegas tunnels that use teslas instead of train cars.
https://inhabitat.com/what-happened-to-los-angeles-streetcar...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/elon-musk-s-boring-c...
I said he had no interest in implementing it, not that it wasn't an interest. He doesn't have the time and the level of interest in his other tasks is much higher.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_pl...
Personally I don't find this to be super constructive. It's similar in some ways to taking credit away from the founder of a company and saying that a VC firm was a much bigger driver of the company's success.
[1] https://www.tesla.com/model3/design
Anytime I had a question about a random area I’d get to meet the lead engineer for 30 minutes to an hour and they give an in-depth breakdown of how their tech work. I was always encouraged to help others and it reflected well in performance review.
When I had my interview with Tesla, the engineer sounded incredibly burnt out and was honest about how horrible it was.
(Make Elon/Bezos/Zuc/etc Richer)
While doing these things you should probably find a lawyer to help you out.
It sounds like you have an actual employment agreement saying your position is remote. If that's the case, and your agreement has suddenly been "voided", then technically you were just laid off, and Tesla owes you severance (if that was part of your agreement).
The point of Elon Musk demanding that everyone work from the office is to try to make it the employee's decision to leave the company, rather than the company laying them off. Because if the employee leaves, the employee is not entitled to unemployment (or severance, if that is part of their employment agreement).
However, terminations by the employer are covered by state and federal labor laws, and generally Tesla would owe unemployment for all terminated employees, and severance if that is part of their employment agreement. (And mass terminations such as this one are additionally governed by the WARN Act.)
Second. Under most circumstances, if you quit a job, you are not entitled to state Unemployment Insurance.
Not sure if this is what you’re referring to as ‘severance’ (what I usually think of as granted by the largesse of the employer).