Ask HN: How do I stop being used?
I'm happy they come and ask me for help, but it feels like I'm a doormat. I'm now trying to run a startup, so it gets worse.
I don't mind helping my close friends though. I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense? Yikes I feel so dumb.
My family have told me I'm stupid, so I'm trying to set boundaries. Some kind fellow startup founders also told me to be more aggressive.
The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free, but that's because I like doing these things. The people then make me feel bad by constantly asking for help, especially for profit generation.
I'm still in my twenties, but I feel like this can't go on forever. Does anyone have any suggestions what I should do?
Like I don't wanna reject them, but if I can somewhow ask them to pay that would be great.
139 comments
[ 1.6 ms ] story [ 60.1 ms ] threadNever ask for pay. Demand it, and refuse to work until you've been paid. There are four words you need to learn to speak without fear, and shout if necessary. Anybody who has seen GoodFellas knows what they are. The four magic words are...
FUCK YOU. PAY ME.
Clip from GoodFellas: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48>
Also, you need to watch Mark Monteiro's lecture, "Fuck You, Pay me" at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U>.
My employers can always rely on me. But they gotta come up with my money every week.
Payroll company fucked up? FUCK YOU. PAY ME.
The client didn't pay you? FUCK YOU. PAY ME.
It's an emergency and you want me to work late? FUCK YOU. PAY ME TIME AND A HALF FOR OVERTIME.
I did subcontracting work, several thousand dollars worth, for a friend of a friend. I sent the bill as our contract stated and.. crickets. Bill wasn't a surprise, I send weekly estimates.
I wait 30 days before I start in with the threats of penalties and late fees. Eventually I get back a sob story that the directs father had passed unexpectedly.
Now, I'm sorry his father passed. However, he collected the money in full from the client.. so it wasn't like that was the issue. I came back with a sincere note telling him I'd be happy to give him 60 day extension, no fees or anything, so he could mourn and all.
He sent me to his lawyer.
Of course signed contract, with weekly estimates, bill of work, etc. His lawyer offered, in 60 seconds of picking up the phone to "settle" for the original billed amount with no fee.
"Fuck you, pay me" is good advice to repeat to yourself in your head.
Plus I need to add penalties, late fees yikes.
Sorry to hear about your situation though - hmm the director's father passing sounds uhhh suspicious.
The first step to valuing your work time is to value your free time. “I value the free time I spend with myself, my friends, and my family so for you, person I don’t know and owe nothing to, to ask me to do something that requires expertise and isn’t necessarily pleasant, you will need to give me a good incentive.”
You can ignore the women part, but the author touches on some of the reasons people act like you act and how to change.
It doesn’t mean you can’t help people without advancing your own agenda… but it does mean that if you do choose to help people for nothing in return, you’re doing it because you truly want to and honestly do not expect anything in return.
The difficulty comes when people view the world as having some kind of universal ledger, where if they give enough, they will be owed things (by the other person or the universe in general) in return. This is where resentment comes from.
It’s a great book that has helped me greatly.
(Don’t be put off by the title, which might make you think it’s somehow related to incel/redpill culture. It’s not. This is actually the book they should be reading instead of all their cynical takes on the world.)
That kinda reminds me of the Giver / Taker / Matcher types. Like I don't mind giving, but it depends on what the person does with my help. If it's for profit generation, that's really not nice.
But again - I'll read the book :))
Like say we make X 50% more efficient, we expect to get paid the full 50% efficiency since its now 50% more efficient forever. The Q is how do I bridge the gap to ask them to pay.
"All right, you've seen what we can do. Let's talk money."
"I hate this bit, but just so there's no misunderstandings down the line, let's talk money"
And don’t undervalue yourself, find out the equivalent prices in your area or what figure out what brings a profit and set that bar.
A 50% efficiency increase could add value to your customer, why not make it an premium product/subscription/version? So keep your old clients on the base version for instance, or offer them the premium.
If you have positive cash flow right now I’d recommend finding a therapist, since personality changes like this can take some deep digging. Personally I have found experiential therapy useful, things like EMDR, process work, gestalt, or even jungian dream analysis. Many on HN speak positively about cognitive therapy like CBT. You will need to spend a little time exploring and may not find the right fit with your first therapist. Good luck!
I'm happy my family and friends, and well HN family is supportive so thats nice :)
I.e. it’s possible you’re not actually being “used” and that’s just a framing you’ve created to manage other feelings around usefulness + your own value. Or conversely you ARE being used, but you don’t want to stop because it provides something, some feeling, that you do want.
(I’m not actually suggesting those specific things apply to you - those are just made up examples)
I’ve found therapy really really helpful in terms of decoding motivations I wasn’t consciously aware of. Would highly recommend!
A psychiatrist prescribes medication; a therapist is more of a confidante and a coach. Whether you have ADD or not, there's no shame in employing someone to help you be a better you!
If I were in that situation, and someone asked me to help with something that I didn't want to do for free, I'd tell them my rates.
"I need help setting up my WIFI. Can you help with that?"
"Sure. I charge $50/hr for tech work."
They're going to look shocked, upset, and probably angry. That's okay, because they were trying to use you and failed.
Then they're going to pull the, "I thought we were friends" or "You won't help a friend?" card. Tell them that you've got a lot going on in your life and are having to prioritize things. Tell them maintaining work-life balance has been hard, and you're trying to fix it because you've been overworking for quite a long time.
When all of that starts to make you feel guilty, ask yourself: "When was the last time they helped me with something they could do that I couldn't?" If the answer is "last week" or "a lot", maybe you should actually help them.
But when the answer is "I can't remember" or "never" (and it usually will be), you can just stop feeling guilty. They're just using you.
And it's okay to just say "No, sorry, I can't help with that." When people ask me to set up their wifi now, I just refuse. That's a huge pit of pain because they'll ask you back to help with every stupid thing they don't want to understand. I just flat refuse now for anyone other than very close friends and family. And I've got some family I'd tell "No", too.
Even when running my own successful contract IT business, I used to do this sort of thing whenever I didn't feel like taking on a particular job. It also has the side benefit of if the advice you gave was good, then you've helped an ally in the industry (network building), and you've helped out a potential future customer. They'll remember that you're the one who sent them to the folks who solved their issue for them, especially if you sent them to someone who charges a fair price and does good work.
A good way to handle this is to ask for some reciprocal payment that isn't cash. "Sure I can help you with WiFi, but could you review my tax filing for this year?" "Could you come paint my living room for me in exchange?" "Can I borrow your truck for a week?"
They will start valuing these "small favors" a lot more when they are on the losing side.
I had a very good friend and mentor who was incredibly knowledgable about mechanical engineering and motorsports. He was also competent with computers but not expert. I was often able to troubleshoot some issues and help setup good network, security, data management, but that only went on for so long until I heard him mention at random times that he had hired a computer tech for some task or other. He just spontaneously did it, no suggestions from me. And this despite him helping me a LOT in both my racecar and starting my biz.
Similarly, a neighbor has a tractor that I borrowed a few times for yard work, but only a few times (and refilling the fuel and giving a house gift), after which I always rented one.
Actual friends don't want to be "that guy" who always borrows stuff or asks favors.
Also look at their response when you are done. If they aren't profusely saying "thank you" and often giving back something, e.g., dinner/gift card, some token of thanks, you should stop having time for them next time. If they stop being 'friends' if you don't have time in that instance, they never were.
Hope you're still friends with the motorspots guy :) He sounds like a good guy :)
Funny how a little appreciation and consideration goes a long way.
The issue is when more complex stuff comes along - like say they wanted me to edit their company codebase etc.
Yee I need to learn to refuse :( Oh well learning for me :(
Wannabe friends? Wink wink
Yeah I like to help people too but only through talking / drawing / explaining
Which is work too just that it is more chill I guess and I probably don’t do it as much as you
Of course if you're just answering questions here and there (like I'm doing here for you on HN), IMO that's what friends help friends do. But, when it comes to really doing work for someone, you have to be compensated. And like I said above, you have to be explicit about the compensation. Otherwise you learn the lesson the hard way like my friend did where he lost a bunch of friends b/c of a startup where assumptions were made and things went south.
The worst is when I answer their Qs, help them, then they ghost me. I'm really confused. Even a nice thank you would suffice.
Explain that you are being taken away from other work which pays, you may well get the Spanish Inquisition over your "customers" and income, you may get sob stories of how hard it is to bring up a family if they have kids, you will get bullied, you will get alot of emotional manipulation and guilt tripping put on you, but you need to become psychopathic over this and insist your time is money and this is what you are charging.
The emotional abuse is tough especially when it comes from family and friends but its what you have to do in order to be successful.
One of my ex customers, once said to me, "there are no friends in business" and its true, and he had worked dammed hard to build up his business.
Yeee there are some I find who are really nice. I'm already trying, and with somewhat success I'm declining. I just need to fix up my speed of declining.
But ye I need to explain how I'm busy with other work that pays me etc.
Anyways the package will get a makeover, so I'm switching to the AGPL 3 licnese - heard that was good for monetisation.
My mother now has a trusted guy in her town who'll fix up her IT devices twice a year instead of a son sitting a few thousand miles away and I can honestly say "I don't even do that for my mum!". Only downside: My mother is jealous because as a (retried) medical specialist she cannot just refer the rest of our family to "some guy in your town" ;)
You are not stupid, you are well meaning. That doesn't mean the actions here are correct, but as a first step:
1. Do not let anyone insult you. Your time is too valuable to let people simply tear you down.
> The worst is when people can see me contribute to my hobby projects (open source), or I teach people for free
Open source and teaching individuals are good and correct things to do.
2. Don't let other people set your priorities. You want to mentor with your free time? Do it.
> I feel used when companies or people use my work and profit from it. The worse is when they advertise that they did it. I get 0 pay, and ironically I sometimes have to travel to THEM on my own expense?
There is a line where if someone is profiting off your effort, you deserve that profit. That line is flexible and personal. I prefer telling people upfront, before we engage, where that line is. I say something like:
"I'm happy to give you general and off the cuff advice for free. If you want me to consult, that's $350/hr. Any NDAs or PIAs are $800 to have reviewed - that doesn't mean accepted or signed. Travel is $2,000 a day."
Obviously, tune this for the audience. If your broke buddy is building his first app, maybe ask him to deal you in for 5% of his profits instead or something.
3. Your time is valuable. It's ok to charge for it. "Treat yourself like a friend you are helping"
Whether it's to me or someone else, don't be shy about reaching out and getting mentoring yourself. Consider getting mentoring from someone with a business focus versus computer focus.
I'll probably write up a contract with explicit mentions of profits.
On mentoring - ye I have some nice friends and company founders - they're nice, but I just can't seem to synthesise myself to be better, so hence I'm asking on HN
They might start respecting you and your time more.
If I were rich, I would spend my time doing exactly what you’re doing: having fun working on cool software, with interesting people, and contributing to projects that get used in the real world. And I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about the messy side of handing money and invoices.
Of course, we all need to eat, and so you should work on learning how to handle the business side better. It can will be painful and frustrating at times, but some of the other commenters have great suggestions, so I don’t have anything to add.
But don’t be negative about what you’ve done so far! It sounds like you’re doing great at the most important parts of the job, which is finding projects and having the skills to pull them off. Like Paul Graham says, it’s easier teach business to coders, than to teach coding to businessmen.
But ye painful :( I really dislike the charging part :( I'm learning :(
Thanks again to the wonderful HN community!
You could start with "Hey I would love to help you and just for full transparency, I am happy to offer this 1st session complimentary but I do charge for subsequent sessions if you will need my help. Does that work for you ?". Then Pause and let them respond. You have made your process clear. Now it is upto them to accept or reject. If they say Yes sure, then next time you know that you are not doing work for them without a proposal/invoice upfront.
You really can't have it both ways. Pick a side, and commit to it. And after that stop caring about what others think of your choice.
https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workpl...
Then
https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/power-why-some-people-have-...
If you read and do, it will help you shift your theoretical understanding of power and apply it to the workplace
The good news is, you're in demand, so you have a good place to start!
This means you will have to think about your time and also people won't take advantage of you just because you don't charge.
If so, companies asking for help is a wonderful way to start milking some $$$.
It's really hard, I've been there. You want to help people, it's nice helping them, you feel validated doing it. But in the longer term you end up feeling like you do now. It's harder when you have a product, especially if you start offering that for free, because very few people value free things.
The (kind of) flip side to this - get better at sales. It feels really icky and embarrassing at first, but learn to sell yourself and your product with a value attached it. If you're not happy doing it (for free or for money) learn to say 'no, sorry'. When people are paying, learn the phrase "that's out of scope for this project". Honestly, it's really hard, but you get better with practice.
For the teaching part - a friend gave me a really useful tip. Give them a massive task first, something like - "read this book, it's $17 on Amazon, we'll talk it through after, then I can give you some lessons." It very, very quickly separates the people who will actually do stuff, care, work on their own and you'll want to work with, from those who are just dipping in and will suck your time.
It all comes down to learning how to say no (in other words, setting boundaries) and only sacrifice your time for the people who deserve it. You don’t owe anything to most and if they stop talking to you because you didn’t want to work for free for them then they aren’t worth keeping around IMHO.
There’s nothing wrong about shedding people if they’re only giving you trouble even if you’ve known them for years so don’t be afraid to do so.
My friends are fine. The issue is interacting with strangers :(