Ask HN: How should we design anti-shrinkflation laws?

17 points by acadapter ↗ HN
Let's say there's an initiative against "shrinkflation", to avoid situations where the busy crowd is tricked by corporate tricks.

The system should allow price changes, but only honest ones.

Should we have sets of fixed package weights and volumes for food and beverages? VAT penalties for odd form factors? Or something else?

51 comments

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I am on the road right now, I had a Burrito last night that was good and priced fairly, I ate 90% of it. I got indigestion. I wish I'd gotten 70% as big a burrito and paid 70% as much.

That's not fair to the restaurant though because their overheard includes order taking, payment, the space my wife and I took up, cleaning up after us, the free chips and salsa, etc. So maybe the restaurant wishes I got the 70% burrito but I paid 85% of the cost.

There was a great soul food restaurant in my home town which sold biologically appropriate portions for prices not much less than you usually pay for oversized entrees. I think one reason they didn't last was that people perceived it as a poor value.

And on the flip side, it annoys me that in any normal supermarket, you can only buy things in relatively small packs for a fairly hefty premium over what larger packs would be. And if they do large packs, they're usually the "value" range. I guess because the sticker shock on large packs of more expensive ranges would put people off.

Sure you can go to Costco if you pay the membership, there is one nearby and don't mind having much less choice, but it's still aggravating.

Large packs also drive food waste, so it would be nice if the small pack premiums weren't so punitive rather then just having bigger packs anyway.

As long as a company does not lie about product sizes on the packaging, it should be free to sell products in any quantity. Consumers that feel tricked will buy from another company.
This seems like a really odd thing to standardize OR legislate to me.

Maybe require cost per unit to be displayed under the price itself and let the "busy crowd" do the math if they care enough?

Cost per unit or weight is already a requirement in Europe.

Though supermarkets seem to always engineer a way to have the "main" product be sold by weight and the "main alternative" to be by unit (e.g. prepacked), so you can't directly compare.

I don't see how that helps protect against shrinkflation though? You'd still need to remember what the historical unit price is, which I doubt people would bother remembering.
And that differs from normal inflation with prices going up how?
Because people have been conditioned their entire life to pay attention to total price. Also there are some price barriers that make people put products down. For example if the price of a bag of chips goes over 4.99 then sales drop 65%. We'll, you just keep making the amount in the bag smaller to avoid that barrier.
Cost per unit is displayed on price labels in the US, at every store I can remember being to. Smaller text than the price, which makes sense.

Sometimes the units are screwed up, and it shows “$3.49, $3.49/ea” for something that should be in ounces, but that’s rare and is clearly a data problem.

I think price per unit should be bigger than the price.
I could get on board with that, but it probably violates some existing price display regulations.

I assume this because otherwise grocery stores would probably love to have a lower “price” as the foremost number.

If the food security will drop globally even price per calorie might become interesting number.
I regularly see fungible products right next to each other where the difference is brand and/or package size and the unit prices will be "$X/each" for one, "$Y/lb" for another, and/or "$Z/oz" for another.
My feeling is that, so long as the weights and prices are transparently displayed, this should be a producer/consumer choice.

Maybe it matters to me that I want to be able to buy $5 worth of dishwasher detergent, whether that's enough for 12 loads of dishes or later is only enough for 9 loads, as long as that's transparently stated, I don't see the issue.

In some cases (like chips and sugared drinks), shrinkflation might be a net benefit to consumers overall.

Ah yes, let's shift the obligation of being aware onto the people who are traditionally lacking in education. Cool, let the exploitation continue
Ah yes, let’s think we know better than everybody else.
It's also a tempting but dangerous idea to think that it's just a problem of "education". Not nearly as many issues are solvable by "education" as people think, IMO.
Actively attempting to trick people who aren't aware of something is totally different than assuming we know something better than someone else. Are you serious right now?
Inflation is inflation whether that is keeping the price the same and reducing the amount or increasing the price and keeping the same amount. Consumers are going to have to deal with one anyways so why fixate on the former?
Because the goal of shrinkflation is to mislead. You have the same packaging, but weight suddenly changes from 750g to 700g. Or instead of 24 eaches, you have 22. It's not prominently displayed on packaging that anything has changed. For many products you will notice a change in price more easily (and it's difficult to show changes in prices on packaging as it's the retailers who set those, and they change much more frequently)
The problem is that the package size (or weight) is such a small piece of information that easily falls out of the average person's attention span, allowing the purchase to be continued on a misunderstanding that benefits the company that spent all the effort on the trick.
You can’t wish away inflation, it affects companies just as much as it affects us. All their inputs into their goods are more expensive too.

I suppose truly deceptive versions of this are possible, but for the most part even if you don’t pay attention to the exact weight or volume, you can see what you are getting. A chocolate bar, bag of fruit, etc. It’s right in front of you, and in many cases you pick it up when you buy it. I don’t even know if a chocolate bar from this or that company are the same size normally anyway. Boxes of cereal come in all sizes at the best of times, so if you really care about the weight you're getting you have to check it carefully anyway.

There are already laws mandating that weights be displayed in packaging. As a consumer I just accept the fact things are more expensive, for the company selling me stuff just as much as for myself. It’s up to us as adults to make sure we’re making purchasing decisions that are appropriate for our situation.

Where it sucks is with things like tuna. Tuna cans were 8oz 30 years ago, and shrunk 1/8 of an ounce at a time to 5 oz today.
I understand, but a law like this wouldn’t actually make tuna cheaper. It would just increase the minimum amount you can buy and price you have to pay. When prices are up and people are trying to economise, is requiring them to buy more of expensive products if they want any at all really benefiting them?
Smaller packaging never decreases your costs, just sort of hides whatever price point boundaries marketers think exists. Having to buy 10 oz of tuna because the price point of 8 oz would go from $0.99 to $1.29 isn’t a savings. (Just a hypothetical price)

There is some “innovation” in packaging that addresses consumer choice - for example with tuna a smaller portion in a pouch is available for you to take for lunch.

It’s a cash flow issue, not a cost per unit issue. The “buy in bulk” mentality doesn’t work for cash-strapped individuals, and could potentially force them, for example, to choose two instead of all three of: bread, tuna, mayo because minimum size laws have priced that individual out of the market. How does one make a sandwich for lunch then?
You make a good point.

I suppose that’s one of the ways poor people stay poor - getting pigeonholed into making the best worst choice for many products drains what resources they have.

My apology for being somewhat unclear, I’m not experiencing KPs but rather GUI locks up tight such that either mouse won’t move or Force Quit is ineffective, leaving mashing the power button as the only option. Happens on my current-gen Intel Mac Mini, M1 Mac Mini and my 2015 MBP.
If it was really transparent maybe...

I would think that means that if the number of washing tablets went from 12 to 9, then packaging would display in prominent letters "Same price, now 9 tablets instead of 12"

Similarly for unit weights:

Chocolate biscuits, "same 12 biscuits, now 20g instead of 25g. Pack size reduced from 300g to 240g"

That would be transparency from my perspective.

“Now 20% fewer calories per biscuit!”
Yes they would do that wouldn't they?

Difficult. hmmm.

I guess it would need to be a standard wording only. A specific sentence with 'fill in the blanks' only for the changed items.

"Now __ tablets instead of __"

I don't think there is a problem to solve.

Shrinkflation is annoying - I'm sure many would prefer to pay more for the same product, but ultimately if you can afford it, you can just buy multiple packs to get the quantity you need.

I don't think of an especially workable way, but an inflation-linked multi-year price-per-weight history for the product on the price label?

I'm sure it would be instantly worked around because shrinkflators are already busily playing sneaky tricks. Probably they'd just slap "great new taste" on it every year and pretend it's a new product.

Package sizes were regulated in the EU starting in the 70s, presumably for this reason, but they've been deregulated in the last decade (other than alcohol).

>Probably they'd just slap "great new taste" on it every year and pretend it's a new product.

Walmart pretty much requires this anyway.

Look around on how they caused the price of pickles down to almost nothing and put companies in bankruptcy, this had to be at least 20 years ago now so Google kinda sucks at finding information on it.

>Should we have sets of fixed package weights and volumes for food and beverages?

Requiring prominent notices of size changes would fix this problem without the government to dictate what size formats are allowed.

US specific: Require filing a notice with the FTC when a product change occurs. FTC can publish notices with a web app and provide in a machine readable format. Unless you're an exceptionally small business frequently changing product sizes per UPC/SKU, the burden should be reasonable. Third parties can consume the data and distribute to their audiences, create mailing lists or something similar as well.
Mandate that the unit price needs to be front and center (like it already is for many things), and mandate what that unit must be for a given type of product. Many times I've seen even the same exact product in different sizes, but one unit priced in $/oz, one in $/lbs, and one in $/qty100, effectively making existing unit price labeling useless. If the units were fixed, people would be able to build an intuition for how much the unit price for a given product should be.
Please, stop making silly laws and let the market work.
Markets work to decive their customers the best way they can.
Not competitive markets. Deceptive players run out of customers quickly.
At most, mandate a new product id when the product materially changes. It's not great when the new size has the same bar code as the old one. Or when a computer product is updated with a different chipset and has the same model number. Or when a CD is remastered, but has the same label and liner.

If hot dog companies sell 10 hot dogs and bun companies sell 8 buns, and Coke sells 10 packs, but Pepsi sells 12 packs, I don't think that's nice for consumers, but I don't think government intervention is the right way to fix it.

The problem is that someone can make a very similar design, and pass the legal loophole.

And it's not the bar code that does the psychological effect on the customer. It's the combination of general appearance, and purchasing habits.

There are GS1 GTIN "rules" about that (e.g. https://www.gs1.org/1/gtinrules/en/decision-support/decision...), but they are guidelines, and relatively lax ones at that (e.g. gross weight changes of up to 20% are allowed). Anybody in retail more or less knows that manufacturers, and even worse - intermediate sellers - don't bother informing about material changes (e.g. languages on packaging being removed to put some marketing bullshit, opening you to legal consequences). Never mention people reusing GTINs for totally unrelated articles.
We could look at historical laws that did exactly this.

Set standard sizes and only allow sales in those size on penalty of prosecution.

For an example from the uk, until a few years ago bread could only be sold in 400g or multiples thereof.

You couldn't sell most kinds of bread except in standard sizes, so shrinkflation couldn't occur.

There were some exceptions obviously and you could have bigger multiples (like the mythical 1600g loaf)

https://www.fob.uk.com/about-the-bread-industry/how-bread-is...

The standard approaches on how do this date back centuries.

Milk gets sold in standard pints (err... 568ml), beer in pints, flour in 1kg bags, etc.

I actually think these restrictions are a good thing, with permitted exceptions possible for some specific things

Here is an idea: Incentivize the supermarkets to display price/100g or similar, like they do in the grocery section sometimes.
In Canada (or maybe just Ontario?) we have price per unit weight. Like “$0.38 per 100 grams”

It’s a required part of a price label in grocery stores.

I suspect this exists elsewhere too. It works fine enough. I don’t see a need for anything further. It’s really simple and anyone who needs simpler probably won’t benefit from simpler anyways.

The problem here is I don't tend to remember the unit price of things, and I think this holds true for most people. We remember chips are $2, not .25 an once.
It'd be fun to have a sparkline printed next to both the actual price, and the price-per-ounce (or whatever). Set it at like a year. Would make it really easy to see the price changes without having to memorize the price or price-per-ounce of a thousand different items.
There shouldn’t be such a law. If anything there should be a law showing the price per gram for all products in all categories in all settings.
And in 20% larger font than the price.