Ask HN: Europe to East Coast, does it make sense to move at 50?
I have the opportunity to move from Berlin to Princeton, NJ, in relation to my wife's job. I wonder if it makes sense financially and I thought to ask the community.
A bit of context: I turned 50 this year, I have 25+ years of coding/system design/tech lead experience. I have mostly worked as a freelance "on-site", sometimes for short periods of time, some other times I stayed with the same client for years.
These days I work on a lot of cloud migration projects, with a strong focus on AWS.
So, coming to my question, I have no frame of reference regarding salaries on the East Coast, especially for freelance jobs.
I did some research and the salaries for permanent positions in the area are significantly lower than my current income in Europe. I assume that I could potentially earn more by engaging clients on the west coast, but my US network is non existent.
Is the free-lancing that I'm used to do in Europe even a thing in the US? (Working for a client for months - at least 6 - on a daily rate which is higher than a normal salary because I can be released at any time plus I bear all the cost of employment including health). Also, can my age represent a problem for employers?
Sorry for the fuzziness of the question, I hope it does make some sense.
EDIT: my wife's company will provide a work permit for me, but at this stage I don't know which type.
273 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 261 ms ] threadYou might find yourself in a spot where you're not allowed to work, even for European clients legally
My wife job is for a European company, no UNI or religious context.
IME if you plan a short migration for a project, witch means go, earn enough money, come back and you do not need ANY KIND of health services in the foreseeable meantime it's ok. If not...
USA level of services is third world compared to EU, bureaucracy is byzantine, surely you might earn much more in absolute terms, just to spend much more in countless fees, you get, perhaps depending from a place to another, very nice nature, nice colleagues, parties, spaces, ... It's an experience, but definitively not a country I'll ever choose or recommend compared to EU. Financially is a nonsense if not for a limited period of time, being healthy, etc.
My suggestion is NOT just asking about salaries but also about cost of living, about all the bureaucracy you need, about how to find a lawyer (because yes, you need one, even just to subscribe to a local gym) etc.
Here, and at least in most EU country, the contract is just one page with the list of services and the relative monthly or per-entry fee + privacy notice. It's not even a real contract in the end. All I need is a generic medical certificate that declare I'm healthy enough to go to the gym.
Surely it's not a valid meter for a country, but still a significant sign of really exaggerated bureaucracy where a lawyer might be needed just to be sure not get trapped somewhere.
Nobody is getting a lawyer just to sign up at a gym, and our incomes are comically higher for skilled persons than European salaries. I literally make 10 times what my French counterpart would in my profession and with a much lower tax rate so the real difference is even larger. I could work for 5 years and retire in France wealthier than if I had worked a 40 year career in France. Would I rather be disabled or unemployed in France? Probably, but that's not exactly the HN audience.
But it's also about knowing that your friends, your family, the people who make your coffee, the people you meet in the park etc. will have a safety net to fall back on.
I do think that I'm not the only person who finds that reassuring.
re. the "I make more money", I realise as a person without kids, I have a skewed perspective but I don't find myself lacking a lot in life. I don't understand the obsession with wanting to get as rich as possible, and if society provides for a lot of things (including kids' college tuition) you may not need to save as much.
I work 32h a week, I earn enough money for myself and I feel that my work-life-balance is pretty good. I think I prefer this to working really hard for 10-15 years, almost burning out and retire and do nothing.
It's true French programmers may be able to swing 10x in (parts of) the US, but they can find 2-5x just by moving to Germany or northern Europe.
No comments about needing a lawyer to subscribe to a local gym, it's utter nonsense, perhaps even malicious.
Employment aside, there are other things that matters when you change countries / continents. As an European, I wouldn't like to move permanently to the US.
If you are making enough money in Europe, I don't see much incentives to move to US.
Sorry, as a somewhat disgruntled European I couldn’t resist.
France has one of the highest tax-to-gdp ratios in the world (46%). If you like government constraints it’s not the place to be.
Few people understand and value those feelings today, but I’m one of those few. I’m not naive enough to think that the US is full of people like me, but there are more of us over there, and it’s not socially acceptable to piss on us endlessly (as it is in Sweden I’d say).
If we would be very, very unhappy I guess we could pack and leave, but that would be a worst case scenario that I'd like to avoid for the enormous stress that it would cause.
Whatever one cause attributes to the systematic breakdown of the US, it is difficult to deny the realities of the decline -- massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues, increase polarization of politics, censoriousness on all sides of the discussion, narrowness, a shortening of attention, a loss of standards. I could go on, but it's too depressing.
I came to Berlin first in 2006. Yes, it was very cheap then, but also very monocultural: now there are many more forms of life here, and they benefit from their coexistence. Stay here, make this moderately good place even better.
> Stay here, make this moderately good place even better
I think you missed the part about his wife's job in the US which is the reason for the move in the first place.
If you do, it's always a factor. Do you want your kids to grow up in a stable culture, or in a declining one? Surrounded by polarization, extremes of all kinds, instability? I consider moving to the US for a couple of years for the money, but the second that kids are on the horizon, I would book a plane ticket to Europe.
The only reservation I’d have is about the healthcare system especially as you grow older. Maybe get well informed about good insurance.
The healthcare issues in the country have never been about the old.
https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0252_health_outcomes_spen...
For example, let's say the US spent 2x on healthcare as some country, but had 4x the disposable income, would this still be overspending or would it be more efficient given the amount relative to income? The closest I can find is health spending as % of GDP but that doesn't capture what a person's income, since it includes government spending too, so it obfuscates whether or not the inefficiency (if any) lies in private or public healthcare in the US.
Physicians in the US are protected, there's only a limited number of slots every year in med schools. This is fake scarcity
Healthcare spending in $ per capita doesn't capture how much people earn in that country or how much of a burden it is relative to their income so its kinda meaningless without more context. It's like saying the US economy is better than 85% of the OECD because its in the top 5 gdp per capita.
Most people in the US don't have "disposable income" from my perspective
Discretionary income might be an even better measure but that has more wiggle room on defining what is a necessity and not.
https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1]
Its literally just money after taxes, and most people are living paycheck to paycheck
That's the point, where is that extra spending going? What good is it doing? Why is any other question the topic of discussion?
Does Venezuela have a bunch of leeching middlemen at every possible point in their systems due to the massive push for privatization?
Profiteering leeches resources from a system to benefit a small number of people at the expense of the rest of the healthcare system
In my opinion, please excuse my language, but it's fucking insane
The whole thing is totally absurd and short sighted, it's damaging to society. This is why there's more stability in some EU countries. We shouldn't be sacrificing stability for profits, that's a terrible idea. We need a stable populace to make stable progress and have a robust system that lasts for generations
Absolutely massive amounts of value is destroyed (and patients harmed) just doing super inefficient shitty processes because no one has the ability or incentive to do any better at a systemic level.
Everyone in the system who has a degree of control gets paid very well keeping the wheels turning and consuming cash.
That's why the profit is so minimal, because there are just so many people providing little to no benefit all taking their piece and spreading it over a bunch of salaries while people get denied treatment
Where were you? I live and grew up in the south east, and have always chatted with my black neighbors / clerks / coworkers / etc when out and about. It’s so normal that I can’t imagine a response of surprise.
And so then you just want to avoid them, because nobody can punish them without undergoing that which Americans and especially Californians are most afraid of--being accused of racism.
California is built with this form of segregation in mind--highways, no sidewalks, no public bathrooms, extortionate rent (huge percentage of income, 40% is common) with the homelessness that is its direct consequence, crazy zoning (you could economically build 60-story skyscrapers anywhere in Palo Alto), concrete everywhere with many places inaccessible except by car, hospitals out to fuck you, firmatage, terrible public transport--all out of fear of harm from minorities which can believe it or not be out to get whites--have that specific intent of harming whites, and they get convicted for hate crimes but those crimes never make the news--which they never punish, only prevent.
Another big problem in Europe is the way talent is valued. It is much more important to have good connections and to belong to the upper class. Simply compare the salaries between engineers here and there. Only management gets a good compensation. This explains why innovation is somewhat stifled.
Things are changing and there are some exceptions. For example, Switzerland shares many of the desirable traits of EU and US, but few of their issues. Stockholm and Berlin have nice startup scenes, and so on. However, the rate of change has slowed down dramatically due to COVID, the housing bubble and inflation rates.
In ~1999 I was in New York, walking around with a sizeable backpack and asked around in Harlem where to find the Sugar Hill hostel. I'd asked two men about where to find it when I was approached by two young women who advised me not to ask these questions here as that would not be safe. I was rather surprised by this since I thought that time was past. Maybe it was the location, maybe it was the backpack but it was not what I'd expected. I found the hostel by myself and came to no harm in any way or shape.
I'm "white" (more of a shade of tan, really), everyone else in this narrative is "black" (more of a shade of brown, really).
The Hostel itself was not all that remarkable (other than the lack of air conditioning at that time of the year), but the crowd there was interesting, quite an experience. Thanks for jogging my memories ;-)
Healthcare is hard here.
If your doctors say there is supporting data for the treatment they are recommending, then filing and appeal is an option.
https://www.healthcare.gov/appeal-insurance-company-decision...
I believe it works similarly in countries with taxpayer funded healthcare. Some group of people at some point in the process decide what is eligible to be paid for by the government.
The ‘everything in the US is global news’, and the end stage ‘ramp up the blood and panic’ from the media companies trying to get more revenue before they go bankrupt doesn’t help.
In all the areas I've lived here, which are not big cities, you see none of that.
The US on the other hand is very welcoming to foreigners (socially). Your neighbor, the barman and people on the street will talk to you. I think it's part of the reason why the US managed the integration of new people easily. It's easier to leave your way of doing things back when you are welcomed. Foreign societies in European are segregated (culturally) even though they live door to door with other Europeans.
What an over the top comment. The US regardless of these issues is an enormously successful country, with some of the friendlist people when you visit (I'm from the UK originally but travel a lot).
The issue is, indeed, "over the top."
Literal Skid Row is in Los Angeles[1], the figurative skid row in SF is called the Tenderloin [2].
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_Row,_Los_Angeles
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_row#San_Francisco
The same as everywhere... due to a war and pandemic.
> a government and social safety net that is rapidly becoming unaffordable
Completely false. Do you even read our budgets? Your debt-to-GDB was literally 3x ours last year. European countries aren't even allowed to deficit spend more than a few percent (which is what got Greece in trouble, for example.)
> they pretend don’t exist
I'm guessing you don't speak any European languages or you'd know this isn't true.
> business climate that has produced essentially zero large companies in decades, and on and on.
Ummm, right... like ARM, Skype, Spotify, Klarna, all the telecom suppliers, not to mention some of the biggest multinationals on the planet (whom you probably think are American)
The grass is always greener but I prefer it here.
> Even more so as American armed forces and weapons (and our tax dollars and political system) are what protect all of you from annihilation.
This is delusional. All you've ever done is make the world more insecure for your own gain[1]. You invade and overthrow everyone who ever disagreed with you and scream "freedom" at everyone.
> The grass is always greener but I prefer it here.
You've never lived here, that's why.
1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md
That's one of the stupidest misconceptions Americans have about "Europe" (the EU).
The EU has a mutual defence elements to it. The EU has a nuclear power, France. The EU doesn't need the US, your "tax dollars and (horrifically broken) political system", and should stop relying on it ASAP. Trump showed you can be an incredibly unreliable partner, why risk it?
https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine...
25% comes from the US, but if you order by GDP(second graph), US is fourth. So overall a very big contribution, but far from "all". And about "negotiations" specifically, you're simply wrong - the ones keeping an open line with Putin (for zero gain so far) are Macron and Scholz (both say it's with Zelensky's approval, and he hasn't disproven them so they're probably not lying).
Raytheon Technologies, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing are getting the bulk of that $40 billion.
We don’t talk about Iraq of course.
We are all helping Ukraine because it's the right thing to do (being invaded by a genocidal regime is not a nice thing to happen to anyone).
How about: "As a Californian, I support withdrawing all aid, so the east coast can defend itself."
While this sounds like something Otto said in A Fish Called Wanda, I can assure Europeans that many Americans actually believe what he is saying.
Of course we can look at the history of the US in Europe. Operation Gladio ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio ) was established to start a guerrilla war in Italy or France if the parties elected were not aligned with the rulers of the US (the US barely tolerated De Gaulle). The US intervention in Italian politics in 1948 exceeded Russian meddling in Czechoslovakia that year. The CIA spied on and stole Airbus plans for US business and does this regularly for other industries. And not to forget spying on Merkel's phone calls and all of this...as the US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland famously said in 2014 "fuck the EU".
Also, someone would have to be naive to think the US is acting in the current situation out of enormous benevolence to the Ukraine. It is, among other things, working on accomplishing what it wants to achieve for its own benefit in western Europe.
It's a lot more complex than that and a lot less cartoonish. The US armed forces protect the way the world is structured, which is obviously dominated by the US. This state of affairs has been erected over the second half of the 20th century primarily to further US interests. It's relatively unique in that it has come about with incredibly little bloodshed, though there are some precedents (not at this scale, obviously). This state of affairs has worked really well for the US as a nation state and economy, and it has had a ton of positive collateral effects for many others as well, but of course nothing at this level is ever motivated by goodwill. Protecting the current world order is done out of self-interest.
The European powers have arranged themselves with and taken advantage of this reality pretty well. Yet no one (that matters) is under the delusion that any support or protection on the part of the US happens for any other reason than to further US interests and wouldn't happen if those interests weren't aligned that way. The US are a "force for good" if and only if your interests are aligned closely with theirs; find yourself in the way of US influence or economic interests, and things can get very evil. There are numerous examples for this in relatively recent history (the most recent one is probably the Julian Assange extradition ruling).
If you look closely, you'll also notice precisely how the big EU players accomodate for that reality. Obviously the US wouldn't tolerate a European rival and it's certainly much safer to keep those interests aligned, given the scale of US dominance. It would also be a lot harder, geographically, to build a powerhouse like the US on European soil, and an impossibility from a political point of view. So there's no upside to aim for overwhelming force projection capabilities on a global scale; just huge risks and downsides and crippling cost.
Yet France and the UK have nuclear arms and fairly effective militaries that are way, way smaller that the US one, hence not a true rival even on European soil, but cover the important strategic bases; namely a solid capability for limited but effective projection of force abroad and a nuclear retaliation capability. Germany, due to its geographic location, cannot have either, as it must not seem threatening to its neighbours if Europe is to have any kind of stability at all. Poland couldn't possibly chain itself to a Germany poised to pounce at them whenever a hardliner government comes to power and France would have similar reservations, they're highly exposed to attack from the northeast as well. Germany's weakness is why the current state of affairs can exist, with a EU security policy that revolves around the tightly-coupled binary of France with its strong national defense stance and Germany with is baffling lack of strength.
Yet it's widely acknowledged that Germany is a latent nuclear power and could build nuclear weapons and means of delivery very quickly with resources present on its soil if it decided to do so. Even its military, joke of a force that it currently is, is fundamentally built to scale into a very effective modern army relatively quickly (as in a couple of years), they have a lot of expertise, just not a lot of decent hardware or effective organisation. It's likely that they will do some scaling now, depending on how the Ukraine conflict develops further. If they do, it's going to be interesting to see whether that actually works the way it's intended to.
But as long as the US are both capable of and forced to intervene in any major assault in or on Europe, or suffer a huge loss of influence and severe long-term consequences to their economy, being strategically cheap in that department is a pretty solid gamble that brings a bunch of benefits the US cannot enjoy, like being abl...
Yes, Europe is at war. Good reminder of the massive social instability occurring on the continent. Scary place to be right now.
Europe is not at war. War in Ukraine is due to an external force that affects barely anybody in Europe. What a bizarre nationalistic reply this is, to be so insecure about the landmass you happen to live on.
Can you point to, say, the UK's constitutional right to bodily autonomy so I can compare? I assume that there will be one as not having a strong constitution guaranteeing these rights is massive internal oppression that is very scary. Also: speaking of the UK and taking away its citizens rights... ever hear of Brexit?
>Europe is not at war. War in Ukraine is due to an external force that affects barely anybody in Europe
Ukraine is not in Europe? Also, the original commenter claimed inflation were a result of war and pandemic. So does it affect people or not?
>What a bizarre nationalistic reply this is, to be so insecure about the landmass you happen to live on.
I agree, the Europeans in this thread are bizarrely nationalistic. My sense is that there's a large contingent of political redditors in here.
And day to day quality of life has nothing to do with geopolitics for most people. US just simply ranks far lower than Central Europe and the Nordics in these measurements. A lot of it is just city planning and infrastructure.
Can they even buy a house or do they have to settle for an apartment?
Quality of live might be great in Barcelona if you like to drink and eat and want to work less. But Spain is so small comoared to the US. The US has so much more variety.. deserts, tundra, forests, palm trees, rocky mountains, cities..
What... world do you live in that Europeans* can't do all of that except the last?
> Can they even buy a house or do they have to settle for an apartment?
Of course... wtf? lol 76% of people own their homes in Spain. Home ownership in the US is only 65%...
* Spanish people can go anywhere in the EU with just an ID, no passport needed, just like in the US.
> Two different states want out and after a vote they arrested the head of state for those regions. The legacy of Franco..
You must be trolling. You literally had a civil war for the same exact reason... Unfortunately, no state allows any subset of itself to secede.
I could pick pretty much any US state over Spain and with a US engineering salary enjoy a vastly better standard of living.
Addendum: used to live in a very wealthy suburb in the US. Said houses are creaky, have constant humidity issues because the mildest of winds would blow out the roof tiles, and have a very low standard of construction coming from other places. More square footage is not indicative of a higher quality of life; many rooms sat mostly empty and did nothing for us.
This isn't even true (immigration accounts for half of Norway's population growth) but let's take a more extreme example: Sweden, the country with 7th highest quality of life on planet Earth yet every 1 in 11 people is an immigrant. This single case proves your generalization wrong. Every 16th person is a first generation immigrant originating from outside of Europe.
You seem completely ignorant of the fact that we took hundreds of times more immigrants per capita than any country on Earth yet we all dominate the fuck out of ALL of quality of live rankings.
The ethnicities in Norway are recorded as Norwegian 83.2%, other European 8.3%, other 8.5%
Your vision of Norway and the numbers don't lineup. 92.9% of people are white..
I live in Boston and groups here are flying women in and shipping pills out to abort their babies. Acting like it’s a dystopian nightmare because of the Roe overturn is hyperbolic.
2) this ruling doesn’t change that for the states most people live in, Abortion is still legal, and has been legal. And hopefully folks in the other states get less complacent and make their voices heard.
It’s a devolution of the issue to the states. Which sucks for a lot of folks, especially young women with few options. But it isn’t banning abortion nation wide or anything.
If anything, this is now way more like Europe.
Nice.
Am I missing something or did you respond to a person writing in English? English being a language created in a place called England, which last I checked is in Europe.
Many of the things you mentioned are not generally true of Switzerland, for example. And OTOH, in Germany, the far right has stagnated and doesn't seem to make further inroads, large companies do continue to be successful but there are especially a lot of mid-sized companies (what's this obsession with growth at all costs?), etc. (let's not forget that one of the mRNA vaccines was developed here).
Yes, there are problems, sometimes even major ones, but I do think you're stereotyping just as much as GP.
Germany has had national health for 140 years, and people have said it is "rapidly becoming unaffordable" for 140 years.
I talk to older people who get US health care. It is incredibly expensive compared to other countries (which few deny), and nowadays they can barely get ahold of their doctor.
> a business climate that has produced essentially zero large companies in decade
Cisco hoovers up many network companies, FAANG hoover up startups, US mobile and land is basically either Verizon or AT&T, the ad agencies, accounting firms, media firms and on and on are all consolidating into a small oligopoly, I can't think of any major sector around a few decades where this has not happened. Europe is not much different.
I can't pick what was more brain cells-killing to read: bshepard's initial rant, his later claim that he doesn't use Reddit despite having written a comment that could be pulled from /r/politics or /r/worldnews every single day, or eertami's claim that the Ukraine war affects "barely anybody in Europe". Honorable mention: kkfx's claim that a lawyer is needed to get a gym membership in the US.
It's true that money can insulate you from this societal degradation, but because of this approach by the upper class, the income percentile to maintain isolation is getting narrower by the day, until it practically evaporates.
or better yet, come to the us and bring your good influence to help get this troubled place back on track. the political situation in the united states is indeed complex and troubled, but the influence and impact of the united states on western nations is undeniable. if it does implode in some horrific way, it's hard to imagine a scenario where it doesn't drag the rest of the west down with it.
US politics have become too polarized, where constituents don't want solutions (evidenced by them voting for representatives who don't vote in the public interest, or who publicly gloat about hurting the other side through policy), and no one person has the power to move the needle (not to mention Citizen's United where the wealthy can pour unfathomable amounts of fiat into races to back their candidates and their politics). Know when to hold them, and know when to fold them.
EDIT: And it's not just the elected. A SCOTUS Justice motivated purely by hate.
https://www.businessinsider.com/clarence-thomas-told-clerks-...
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/27/us/2-years-after-his-brui...
> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas told his law clerks in the '90s that he wanted to serve for 43 years to make liberals' lives 'miserable'
(us citizen leaving for western europe)
i understand and appreciate the desire to walk away. it's the classic, quiet, dignified and usually effective response to insanity. (and american politics, for the last 6 years at least, has been nothing short of insanity)
but unfortunately i don't think it works that way. i think that leaving only serves to both export polarization and make matters worse. i suspect the us is too big and the world is too small.
The official government website to help you navigate this is fvap.gov. The Democrats Abroad one that provides even more handholding and optional nagging: votefromabroad.org. They’ve only ever called to remind me that elections were occurring in Texas, and early enough that I could work out ballot issues, and then a follow-up a week or so before I really need to have that ballot in the mail.
I’m a semi-rural Texas voter who regularly has unsatisfying conversations with Ted Cruz’s snotty staffers and John Cornyn’s slightly politer ones, hanging up the phone to go enjoy the life I’ve made for myself in southern Germany.
Absolutely. My geography does not absolve me of my responsibility to do so.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3485737-hakeem-jeffries-t...
> Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY) this week blasted Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas for his stance on a number of issues facing the court, including abortion rights. “Let me ask this question of brother Thomas,” Jeffries said during a House Judiciary Committee hearing this week. “Why are you such a hater? Hate on civil rights. Hate on women’s rights. Hate on reproductive rights. Hate on voting rights. Hate on marital rights. Hate on equal protection under the law. Hate on liberty and justice for all. Hate on free and fair elections. Why are you such a hater?”
See? Hate.
This is either a troll response or you’re outright detached from reality.
But sure, why not?
This said, the visa issue could be a major hurdle and it's important to do your homework about this work visa that will be given to you.
Regarding the negativity about living in the USA... I immigrated to this country 20 years ago and I love it. I would never trade the US for Europe, despite Europe being an interesting place. It's not fun being poor in the US, like in most of the world, but I think overall it's an amazing country with lots of opportunities, great quality of life and wonderful people.
My experience servicing US clients from Europe has been great so far. Most clients are easygoing and communicate really well. Also, it seems to me that most care more about what you can do for them as opposed to random credentials and whatnot. In parts of Europe, and especially in Germany, there's still this obsession with having the right degree, and people would proudly feature all their degrees in their email signature :D
Anyways, I'm close to OP's age and will be coming to NYC later this year to open an app dev shop. I'm working on getting a few contracts going before I land but I suppose it should get easier when I can start pounding the pavement, right?
Salaries are much higher than the EU. But in some cities cost of living is high. Coming from Berlin, you’ll have an easier time finding an apartment, but it will be expensive. I’d expect to pay $2000 to $2500 per month for a decent apartment in Princeton. Also, you will require a car. Public transport here is not feasible for the most part. A decent car will be $250 per month base, plus $100 to $200 insurance per month, plus fuel. Food is cheap and plentiful. The portion sizes are twice as large for the same equivalent price as the EU :). Make sure you get healthcare coverage through your wife’s job - this shouldn’t be a problem. If you are both in good health you should be fine. If you have preexisting medical conditions then it will likely be much more expensive for you here than in the EU.
Probably the time zone. Better to ask this question in the afternoon in europe.
As someone who moved from EU to the US for 6 years and recently got back: the quality of the food is way lower there, though. As in: food standards imposed are significantly lower. I ended buying mostly organic food at Costco after my body significantly changed within first 6 months.
EDIT: don't know why I am being downvoted: the food standards difference is based on actual facts, not my personal experience, it doesn't take a lot of googling to compare the sheer numbers. Or if you're lazy just consider the mere fact that salmonella is still a thing in the US, which is why all eggs are washed before the sale.
Here in Germany, 25% of meat bought in grocery stores doesn't follow the most basic of butchering standards set forth: https://www.ua-bw.de/pub/beitrag.asp?subid=0&Thema_ID=2&ID=2...
What you get in the US is choice - and as a software engineer, you have the money to make those choices. Shop at Whole Foods, not the local gas station, and you will see there is a world of difference.
That's one mistake I see Europeans make - they apply a European world view to the US, and don't understand the wide spectrum of choices. Here in Europe, most things are equal or about the same. This mentality is even applied to universities (ask a German which university is "the best", and you will receive a confused look).
Whether you think all of this is morally correct is a different question.
It's true that any given German grocery store has fewer choices than any given US one, but extrapolating that to "there are no choices" is absurd. Germany has more choices of grocery store, and in both countries if you really want good meat you go to a real butcher (definitely not Whole Foods) anyway.
Your comment about universities must be a joke, or your social circle lacks any kind of discrminating ability. I've had multiple conversations with a dozen Germans about exactly this topic in the past month regarding our recruitment/hiring practices.
As for the universities, it's not like I made this up. I'm well aware of the broad differences in quality of education (and futhermore, healthcare) here, but my comment wasn't about me and this is not an invention of mine, it is a widely held belief: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/comments/ay5nrs/which_un...
I also didn't say "there are no choices", so I don't know who you're quoting here. What I was trying to explain is the European worldview being applied to the US, where there is much vaster inequality between universities, products, income, etc. I didn't attempt to make a value judgement about it, I was trying to show a common pitfall of Europeans arriving in the US: it's important that you know where you're shopping, it's important that you know where you're going to school, and it's important that you know what neighborhood you're in. In Germany, you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime.
> you don't need to know what neighborhood you're in: they are all roughly the same in terms of crime.
This is unreal. Is this some Bavarian bullshit? Nobody in the north believes it.
I was never to the US and maybe it is worse there. Don't want to compare but your statement is just plain wrong and the people always telling this as a mantra just never have lived in a bad neighborhood and/or do not have kids.
"4.3. Washing of eggs
The practice of washing eggs of class A for human consumption is forbidden by the European Union legislation."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:52...
Class A eggs are basically the only type you'd buy for consumption. I, for one, have not once found Class B eggs in a store. AFIK Class B are used in food manufacturing only.
I don't know what's your definition of perfectly clean, but eggs in EU are not perfectly clean in comparison to the US ones. The latter look like they're literally bleached. Not a single spot on the shell. The eggs I buy in EU, code 0-2, are quite dirty, with residue on them.
Compared to some of Europe yes, compared to Germany absolutely not.
It's weird that describing things accurately is considered "anti-American." The question was answered multiple times though: If he does get a higher salary, much is going to be wasted on making up for deficiencies of the US that may be invisible to a German (especially wrt. health, food quality, security, social services, etc.)
Yeah, definitely, but you'd still expect people here to do better. Nobody who hasn't lived in both even needs to comment really.
It’s important to generalize for the sake of the OPs questions, but saying nonsense doesn’t help anyone.
> massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues
This is a fact and it's not "[you're] all drug addicts and burning your own houses to the ground."
The only way you can get upset is to straw man it really hard.
I’m laying in bed listening to the birds chirp, trying to provide some level commentary.
I read the top comment and chuckled hard. It’s not even close to real. Social media is amplifying some really skewed info.
Try living here, it’s beautiful.
>this is a fact
Do you actually believe it is a fact that the US suffers from “massive alcohol and narcotic dependency issues?” If so you need to reconsider the definition of a fact and/or reconsider your sources of information.
Absurd hyperbole which is outright detached from reality regurgitated by you as fact. And you have the nerve to tell this other person they’re “straw man really hard.”
Next level.
It's not poverty in the classical sense of a third-world country for sure. Doesn't make it any better.
Princeton NJ is a beautiful part of the state, and close to the university.
Not sure where you will live, but Nassau Street has a quaint charm. There's plenty to do, and you are a 90 minute train ride to Manhattan.
Don't let the comments discourage you. People are just blowing off steam from the roe v wade ruling.
I overall do not miss living in Princeton, though I know a fair number of people who stayed after graduation, or moved to Princeton after living in some big cities. It's monocultural, to borrow a term some other commenters have used. It is mostly people who work in or adjacent to the university; it is mostly affluent, white people; there is some art, centered around the theater or the museum scene, but it is the art of that one culture. However, take my subjective experience of the city with a grain of salt.
Moving is hard. Moving to a new country doubly so. Make sure you have a strategy for finding friends, likely through your wife's work, or perhaps through meetups. Americans are easy to make friends with. That is, at least, one thing we have going for us, still, in these troubled times.
Freelancing for software engineers is very common. I have many friends who do it. You do not even need to file for a corporation to do it. The taxes are not much worse than being a salaried, full-time employee: as with the W-4 form, it is copying numbers off a page someone mails you.
Ageism is a real thing in the tech industry here. It is not difficult to find a job, but you will likely work with younger people, probably people in their 20s. Some companies do a good job of integrating people across the age spectrum, but some -- the ones that expect late or odd hours, especially -- do not. That is changing though! The tech industry only gets older each year.
If you do move, find a place with central air conditioning. It gets hot and humid during the summers, and only more so now, a decade later, with climate change. Check out, also, the McCarter Theater, which is beautiful. David Sedaris, one of my favorite authors, often gives a talk there each year; and the students from the university put on a pretty good revue each year as well.
Obviously lots of details; they are in academia, have an 8yo, were most recently in the UK, etc. But they have their skin in the game and made choose USA.
Makes me wonder if they draw a lucky ticket like tenure. Because for most cases, the opposite would make more sense.
Especially well-played to move to the US as soon as the kid is old enough to no longer need special medical care or a daycare.
I’m certainly glad my ancestors took it.
In Germany not a whole lot can happen, in the United States you may well be on the receiving end of the stick.
And that's before we get into the speed with which the whole of the world as we knew it seems to be unraveling, including the USA, but I can see some arguments for being safer there than in Berlin.
1) You have no network in the US. You will have to start from scratch. Remember how you started. Multiply difficulty level by 2. And you're not going to be any younger.
2) Salaries for perm positions being "significantly lower" in the US than in EU. This nullifies gains from moving to the US. Add cost of moving everything over long range by plane/cargo ship.
3) Healthcare cost. My friend asked me once about cost of dental care in Ireland (where I live now). I replied 'it depends, between 30-60 euro'. He was quoted 13000 dollars for one tooth job. Think about this double hard, you're 50 and you won't get any younger.
4) Friends and your peers will stay in the EU. You won't see any of them for months and years. Factor in plane ticket prices. You won't be coming home to visit family for Christmas.
Just few things from top of my head, but I think they are important.
On HN, we hear all the time that the inverse is true. Is it because high salaries are limited to Silicon Valley?
In Western Europe, freelancers with good credentials and a large network can have yearly gross revenuу of 100..200k€. Is this comparable to US freelance revenue?
Especially if COVID-19 or similar comes back. That cut me off from my family for multiple years.
[1] https://extra.ie/2022/06/12/news/tourists-cancelling-trips-t...
Do you mean the opposite?
That said, I think you can generally expect IT pay to be higher in US major cities than almost anywhere in the EU. The US also has the concept of consulting. That runs the range, you could be working for a body shop agency for no more pay than a salary where the agency takes up to 50% of the client’s rate. You could also be an independent consultant where you run your own company and directly market and contract with your clients for 2 or 3 times the pay. The latter takes a personal network and a reputation. If your current clients pay you well, why not just properly structure things and work for them from the US?
Besides pay, there is the issue of cost of living. You could have the option to live in a fairly rural area and commute into Princeton. Cost of living can be fairly low in the US outside major cities or some of the highest in the world within them. It is a big country with much variance.
One last thing: you will find that the US is basically still the barbarian lands in comparison to Europe, history has a long arm. That can be good or bad depending on you, but don’t be shocked when you find out that the country is bordering on anarchy in comparison to Germany, expect it.
My daily rate is around 1k euro + 19% vat. Note that I have multiple clients, so in some good months the above figure is higher.
My tax pressure is around 43%, including health insurance.
So no, there’s no low hanging fruit here. I’m sure you could improve your rate in the US by 2x or 3x by running your own business, but as you are already in a very optimal place there would be hard work involved. And honestly, Americans put longer hours in, pathologically, so you may find the return on investment to work for American clients to be distinctly lacking.
Which decade since 1900 was worse than the one before it? Did the daily newspapers predict the most impactful events of the decade (positive or negative)?
I share most of your current outrage and concerns, but history shows a clear net positive trend
In my experience, the doom and gloom folks— both micro and macro— have almost never had their predictions play out. There are always Eeyores out there. I prefer Pooh.
My only advice(s) as someone in mid '40s are: 1. Don't jump to such a sudden and radical change, many-many things in US are vastly different that what are you accustom (strong point since you're from Germany) 2. Give it a try since you're mostly working as freelancer, spend 1-2mo (tourist visa) so you will not break up from your wife 3. See how's living there, if you can accommodate 4. Let us know (start ablog) :)
As for the negative comments, what the comments here don’t address is this: the US is almost more like a bunch of countries rather than one single entity. Which of the states you choose- and which city— makes a huge difference as to your experience. There are absolute hell holes (Flint, Michigan comes to mind) and surprisingly pleasant places (my town of Greenville, SC which was run by an Austrian mayor for so long that it has a fairly European feel to it).
On average, the food here is worse. The bread is much worse. The coffee is terrible. But you can find great bread, coffee, etc if you go out of your way to do so (I do). And in NJ and NY metro areas, you’ll have plenty of good options.
The healthcare system is dumb and annoying, but fine (where I am) as long as you have insurance (which you should have through your wife). The fact that your healthcare is tied to your employer is so, so dumb. If you freelance and get a visa, maybe you can buy your own. That’s what I do, and it’s my preference.
Politically, we are really more divided than I can remember in my lifetime. But it doesn’t affect me at all in my day to day life. I suspect the next two years will be pretty rough if you care about politics. Personally, I just tune it out. I vote. But other than that, I focus on my family, job, local community, and hobbies, and I’m quite happy here.
Edit: one more thing: my wife and I are considering moving to France. I work remotely, so this is simpler for us than for many. Our plan is to start by testing the waters with a long term (3 months or so) rental. If you can do something similar, do it!
I visited the US in the past (hell, me best trip ever was an epic coast to coast with a Marine friend) and I'm aware of the differences.
Cultural differences are ok, this is why we consider moving - and why I moved a lot around in the past.
My main concern is about getting to an age where I can't really afford severe financial missteps.
Our "purchase power" here in Berlin is very very high and as much I consider Berlin a messed-up city the overall quality of life is stellar.
I can afford to stay put for a while (in fact, that is the plan in case we move, so I can support my kids with school etc.), but I want to make sure that, when my stay at home dad period ends, I can get to an income level that is close to our situation in Berlin.
Doesn't have to be the same, but I don't want to end up loosing money over the move.
If you’re willing to forego freelancing there are some great remote-first companies that will pay you well. Elastic is an absolutely amazing place to work, and they have a decent German cohort, too.
I don’t know much about the relative school quality for your kids, but do know that in the US schools are funded locally so people spend a lot to be in the zone of a desirable school or otherwise go private. Since the difference between good and bad schools can be enormous, you will end up paying for this one way or another.
I enjoy living in German/European cities significantly more than I did living in big cities in Texas (I can't speak for the East Coast). I value the culture of being able to walk or bike pretty much anywhere in the city in a reasonable amount of time. I value feeling safe even in the "bad" neighborhoods here in Germany. I've never once come across a situation where I was worried about my safety here, I can't say the same for the US. I value a society that isn't so extreme (wealth inequality, political ideology, etc.).
As for what I miss about the US, it's mostly the food (TexMex, BBQ) and nature (so much more to see and do, but you need a car). There's also the work culture which is a bit different, particularly in terms of startups and innovation; Germany definitely lags behind in this aspect. Some things are more convenient in the US as well, such as stores being open later and on Sundays.
Germany isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the US in a lot of quality of life aspects.
Before moving, I would recommend going to visit the city and see if it's something that might fit you. Try to talk to locals and explain your situation, I'm sure there would be people happy to show you around and give you some good insights from a less touristy perspective.
Of course, all of this is hard to weigh if your wife will be living there for certain, as long-distance relationships can be tough.
We are going to be in NYC in a couple of weeks and we plan to spend one day in Princeton, as you suggest.
Regarding the long term relationship, if we move we are going to move as a family (2 kids included :))
I saw in another comment that you said it would only be for a few years. In that case it's a bit different as I was going off of the assumption it was long-term/permanent, so it could be a more worthwhile experience.
I would say that it could even be beneficial for the kids in terms of their English skills and getting a more worldly experience. Most Germans I know speak good English, but some of those who have done study abroad programs in the US have definitely mastered the language and accent, which is especially useful in STEM as almost all research is done in English these days.
Sorry, I didn't mean your comment was polarized, the opposite. Yours was one of the few balanced comments in this thread so far (also don't want to discount other HNers comments, this is hugely useful for me)
Have a plan for covering your family members' health insurance. You can use this website to compare NJ's individual marketplace for health insurance plans here[1].
Get the details of what your partner's employer is offering for health insurance, including what the costs are for each additional member of your family. Find out what the total cost of coverage is for COBRA should your partner be laid off and you want to keep your healthcare coverage. Health insurance rates skyrocket when it comes to covering family members if your employer isn't paying your premiums and deductibles for you. Family plans can have deductibles alone of over $14k every year, with premiums in the thousands of dollars per month.
Once you know the details of the offered plans, use the insurance company's website to see if there are any providers that take the plans in your area, including hospitals and emergency rooms. I say this because even if you have health insurance, that doesn't mean healthcare providers will take it. It's especially important with kids, because if you need to take them to the emergency room, you will be paying a large premium for doing so even if you get little to no care at all. It's very easy to walk away from a emergency room visit with a bill for tens of thousands of dollars for even minor emergencies.
You'll also need separate vision and dental insurance plans.
If you or anyone in your family has disabilities, or are at risk of becoming disabled, really, really consider if you want to leave a place with relatively cheaper and sane healthcare for another place without it. The US is not a kind place for those with disabilities or chronic illness.
[1] https://www.nj.gov/getcoverednj/getstarted/compare/
I say all that as a European.
Other things like infrastructure, political polarization etc are very real. But there are also lots of opportunities in tech, salaries are higher than Europe but the work culture is worse - expect to work longer hours than Europe, little paid leave, fire at will etc. These are personal choices and compromises.
If things don’t work out, can you easily move back to Berlin? If yes, maybe it is worth taking a chance and spend a couple of years here and see how it goes?
Immersing oneself within another culture is almost always worth it, but like anything valuable there are always challenges. Psychologically, the Gartner hype cycle will apply to you and your family (replace “innovation trigger” with “new culture trigger”). Given your visa situation is unknown, what’s your backup plan if you can’t work? (e.g., go back to university, learn a new language, etc.) I can’t stress enough to have a plan here. Having one partner being productive in a new culture while the other is mired in the “trough of disillusionment” for a long time is a recipe for immense family/financial strife.
A good starting point for financial questions you might ask yourself:
• Will your children go to private ($$$$) or public schools?
• Will your partner’s employer pay for tax preparation and for how long? Finding international tax people, let alone competent ones, in the USA is extremely difficult & $$$$. Do not underestimate how Byzantine/inane/amoral the US tax system is.
• How are you handling international banking & investments? (Goes with the tax part above)
• How are you handling private pension contributions? (Goes with the tax part above; *warning*: different governments may not recognize foreign pensions and instead treat them as taxable investment accounts…. Tread *very* carefully here.)
• How are public social taxes handled between DE & the USA? (e.g., US $$$ into Social Security is credited as DE €€€? Or just time credits to qualify for a DE pubic pension? Where will you retire, the USA or DE?)
• Are there any social taxes that need to still be paid in DE while you are in the USA in order to use healthcare, education, etc.? (for your return, in case your partner looses her job, kids want to go to DE university, etc.)
• How will you establish credit? Remember, you are starting with no credit history so large purchases (car, etc.) will be difficult. Especially in the USA where credit is the norm.
• Will you rent or buy a home? Can you qualify for a mortgage and if so, when?
• How can you obtain a US drivers license? (e.g., Can your DE one be instantly swapped for a NJ one? Or will you have to take a drivers test? If so, does that require you pay for drivers school? Does your new license have restrictions on car types that you can drive and for how long?)
• Is your partner’s company paying for shipping of your furniture, etc.? Or will you buy everything new? What about electronics that need to be replaced? (e.g., vacuum cleaners, kettles, etc.)
• What is the best visa for you & your partner? *warning*: Do some research or pay for independent legal counsel here. Remember that the types of visas that your partner’s company will suggest/initially sponsor may be in their best interests and not yours. Can you qualify for a visa independent of your spouse? (i.e., so that your whole family isn’t 100% dependent on your partner being at her current employer.) Are there any preferential visas available to you via DE/USA treaties? (E.g., E1/E2, etc.) This area can be really expensive to fix afterwards, so make sure you get what’s best for you.
• Is your partner’s company paying for “home visits”? (e.g., return flights to DE 2x a year, etc.) If so, for how long?
The above is just a starting point, but I’m sure the “global mobility industry” has others to be found.
- I'm surprised that you find salaries lower in the US than in Europe. That said, if you compared freelance/consulting rates to salaries, that's Apples and Oranges. If you compare salaried positions, even on the East Coast, the salaries should be noticeably higher than in Germany. The extremely high compensation that people in some posts are talking about are generally found in a few, extremely high cost of living areas on the West Coast.
- I would expect AWS focused cloud migration consulting to be in demand in the US more or less the same way it is in Europe. That said, you'll be in competition with the usual consulting/outsourcing suspects and with no network, that might be a bit of an issue.
- The big financial hit for freelancers over here tends to be health insurance, and that's going to be rather expensive at your age (I'm a few years older than you). If your wife's job does offer health insurance for both of you, that's a major bonus. In fact that's pretty much what keeps me from freelancing with 30+ years experience (I used to freelance in Europe).
- Yes, there are differences in the quality of life over here. Not all of it is applicable to freelancers for whom paid vacation time isn't a thing, but it's a different mentality when it comes to work here for a lot of people.
To put not too fine a point to it, yes, your age can be an issue. Despite age discrimination being illegal, it's still rampant in this industry. OTOH I don't have that many problems finding work, and I work with a few people who are older than me and also don't have those issues. A lot of it depends on the company you're working for or with - some of them are looking for cheap young cannon fodder, others are willing to pay for experience and deal with grumpy old people :).
The other question you need to answer for yourself is the motivation for moving over here, even temporarily. If you're looking to make untold riches quickly, it's probably not that great an idea. While you should be able to at least match your German income over here, it might take a few years to get back to that level.