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Ask HN: Where should I consider moving?

13 points by snoopy_telex ↗ HN
Howdy HN,

I’m sure I’m not the only person considering leaving the US in the near future, but I’m struggling to make a short list of countries to explore.

I have friends that are starting the process for New Zealand, but their tech industry looks to be almost exclusively consulting driven. If like to end up at a place that’s more traditional. So where in the world should I look at?

Thank you!

40 comments

[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 94.4 ms ] thread
themodelplumber
It'd probably help to narrow the terms a bit. What's consulting-driven mean in relation to what you're looking to do, and what does more traditional mean to you?
snoopy_telex
Full time employment on a steady project for the company that owns the project.
etherael
Don't pick a country to work there. If at all possible get a location independent career or sufficient passive income that you don't even need to work except when you want to, and pick a country based on whatever you decide is most important, be that cost of living, lowest taxes, quality of life, cultural, social or political fit, whatever.

Nobody knows you as well as you know yourself and after many years travelling and seeing what the world is actually like in practical day to day life this becomes even more true and you know even moreso what is important to you.

When I left Australia well over a decade ago I had no idea that I would value the things I learned to love only by having access to them on a regular basis and realising that they were readily available as options. If I'd gone only to where my idea of what I wanted would lead me to believe at the time, I'd have missed out immeasurably.

Figure out the logistics for a quick recon of practically every locale that isn't a hard no, and while figuring out those logistics expect to add liberally to the hard no list, and build from those experiences.

marto1
I'd also add another major factor is age. With age requirements tend to change quite a bit and as one gets older things like healthcare really begin to factor in.
etherael
Having had direct experience with Japan, South Korea and Thailand, it's also really difficult to overstate just how much more cost effective mundane medical treatments can be. Things that would bankrupt you in certain countries are minor inconveniences in others. I don't have experience with later life healthcare as of yet but for the normal stuff prior to that, I will say that the medical systems of Asia appear to be vastly superior to their first world Western counterparts.

Definitely for those with particular medical requirements, these should be factored into your logistics planning for your destination. Information is typically abundant.

It really drives home just how fundamentally broken certain healthcare structures actually are.

wbsss4412
Do you know another language and/or are you willing to consider learning a new one?

If you’re English only that really affects the proper response to this question.

snoopy_telex
I am English speaking only but would be open to learning new ones. It would be difficult though.
wbsss4412
Being open to learning other languages certainly allows for more options, it’s also not as difficult as you might think.

The next question is, about the US makes you want to leave? Put another was, what is or isnt in the US, that you would hope to find differently somewhere else?

kleer001
Canada.

I've been here for a decade. Best decision I've ever made.

How do? Get a job up here. At least that worked for me, but that was in the before pandemic times. And it also depends on how old you are and other such demographics.

That said every country has its plus and minuses.

asguy
What about focusing on fixing the country you’re in, rather than moving to somewhere else?

You have 50 states you could explore first.

jleyank
I struggle to come up with something that can unite, say, California and Alabama other than a credible external threat. Their paths seems to be quite divergent at this point.
greenie_beans
that's incredibly dismissive of alabamians who fight for progressive issues in the state. it's also harmful to the folks who suffer under the political hegemony.
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hattmall
It's also ignoring the large number of Californians moving to Alabama. The fact is California is too big to generalize and that's true of most states. The schism between individuals views in Alabama internally is no less than the perceived difference between views of California and Alabama as states.
jleyank
No, but the pertinence of each “side” of views is way different. Whole lot of frustrated farmers in California who are dominated by the big cities. Probably a similar percentage of blue Alabama folks dominated by the Red sea. Generational change is required to alter the non-purple states and it’s not worth the effort for most people to try. Move to where the political climate is congruent with one’s philosophy is far easier.
greenie_beans
that's definitely a take. as somebody who is in the political minority, i often feel like giving up. but i also think that giving up is the wrong thing to do.
asguy
What do you need to unite them about? Unless Alabama is imposing something untenable on California, what does California care? It can keep being California.

You're not going to unite France and Germany on everything either. But you don't have to. They just have to agree to let each other keep being France and Germany.

jleyank
Gee, I don't know. How they handle women's rights, how they handle marriage rights, ... These things aren't state-level actions.
asguy
The US supreme court seems to disagree with you.
dragonwriter
> Unless Alabama is imposing something untenable on California, what does California care?

Because California’s economy is forcibly diverted to subsidize Alabama's political decisions (given the way federal funding formulas work, largely specifically because those decisions are consistent failures in aggregate economic terms.)

Also, because being conmpelled to tolerate denials of fundamental human rights is an intolerable condition.

asguy
> Because California’s economy is forcibly diverted to subsidize Alabama's political decisions (given the way federal funding formulas work, largely specifically because those decisions are consistent failures in aggregate economic terms.)

I agree. I think that the way the US does things is kind of ridiculous.

> Also, because being conmpelled to tolerate denials of fundamental human rights is an intolerable condition.

How do you feel about the US not managing it's own petroleum production at levels to support its own use, effectively requiring propping up the Saudi regime? I think we can safely say they have a worse track record on women's rights than Alabama.

Do you feel that's intolerable as well?

snoopy_telex
I’ve explored the states in my 20’s and 30’s and I’m pretty happy with where I ended up compared to the other options here, but I’m really at the point where I don’t see the US as making it out of this mess. Collapsing empire, so to speak.
wbsss4412
If your primary concern is collapsing US empire, you aren’t necessarily limiting your exposure by leaving the country. A rapid collapse of US hegemony would lead to a fairly chaotic reordering of the global system.
snoopy_telex
That's fair, but I think it would be a easier transition to be... not here when it happens.

Another issue is around the slow decay into a theocracy.

You have sitting members of congress saying “I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.”, and my conservative relatives talk openly and widely around wanting to revoke the second amendment and make this a true christian nation.

Will this happen? Maybe not, but I feel like it's entirely possible that it could, and I don't want to be here for that. I grew up in a hyper religious environment and my life is measurably better existing without religion. I don't want to go back to living in that environment.

wbsss4412
Well, on the basis of the theocracy concerns, it’s probably best to look at Northern/Western Europe, where secularism is the strongest.

You aren’t going to have to worry about a church takeover in France any time soon.

Edit: East Asia is also an option.

mbg721
Wow, of all the historical ironies...
wbsss4412
It is indeed quite ironic, but it’s the state of affairs today.

Though true separation between church and state began in France so, yeah.

diob
I'm similar to you. I'm worried that if I don't leave soon I may get rounded up post 2024. Others may be willing to take a chance, I'm not.
avgDev
So, I have a dual citizenship, US and Poland(EU). This allows me to basically work anywhere in the world.

US is still one of the best places to earn a high income as a software dev. I work for non-tech as a full stack dev. Good salary but not FAANG levels. My income is higher than a surgeon in Poland.

If you want to move I would optimize for income. Just grind leetcode and try to get into the highest paying companies. If you earned $300k+ while living way below your means that money would go REALLY far in some of the European countries.

This is my goal anyway. As my net worth reaches somewhere around $3-4 million, I'm going to most likely move back to Poland and buy a house somewhere in the mountains and maybe do some remote dev work for a US based company. Plus, since I am basically more American than Polish and have a good understanding of culture I could do some consulting for Polish companies looking to sell their product in the US.

I guess it really isn't the answer you are looking for. Also, keep in mind most countries have policies and laws that are often not popular with the people.

MuffinFlavored
> My income is higher than a surgeon in Poland.

how does this work if you were to compare the two numbers more closely? like, adjust for cost of living, etc.

jleyank
Must balance cost of living and all of the non-voluntary deductions on a paystub including insurance. Parts of the us pay real well but require lots of money to have a reasonable existence. For example, us pays way more in social security tax than Canada, and they get noticeably more in benefits. So that and Medicare balance out the higher provincial tax in most of Canada. There are probably similar differences between the us and any European country.

Quality of life (very) hard to put a price on, but that relevant as well.

avgDev
Fuel is more expensive in Poland. Healthcare is nationalized but people often need to pay for private doctors. I think medication is cheaper.

The highest income tax in the US is 39%, in Poland 32%.

Generally, US dollar is much stronger than Polish currency. This means the dollar will go much further in Poland and gives you move buying power globally.

The life in Poland is much slower though, more family oriented. If it wasn't for the money I would much prefer to live in Poland but I think there is generally more opportunity in the US.

rwaksmunski
This is pretty much what I've done, moved to Polish mountains when Covid hit. 8.5% income tax rate, gigabit fiber, 3 story house with solar panels and geothermal heating. Very low cost of living, 6 figure income, 7 figure net worth. Healthy groceries direct from local farmers. I can pet the cow that I get the milk from. Life is really, really nice.
avgDev
Which area are you in if you don't mind sharing? I really like Krynica Zdjor but houses can get really expensive in that area.
hancholo
It's difficult to say right now considering a pending recession. Whenever that may happen. Soon?
vaidhy
Few folks have mentioned it, but you should really plan considering your age and needs for next few years. You did not mention your family situation either. Are you planning it alone or with a partner and kids? Kids, as usual, complicate the matter even further :)

Dollars stretch a lot in most places and depending on what you want to spend your time and money in, it would make a lot of difference. Personally, I have decided to do something like 4 months of travel and 8 months of recuperation. Luckily, my current job allows me to do it and while it is a bit of a burden on family, it is doable.

snoopy_telex
That's fair. It would be with my partner and no kids.
TimButterfield
It may partly depend on what you want to do when you get there. Will you work in the country in which you live or continue to work for companies in the US? If it is the latter, living in Europe or the eastern edge of those time zone ranges might allow for work to overlap US business times. But, instead of free evenings, you have late mornings and early afternoons to do other things. A mail forwarding/scanning service will let you keep US ties for banking. Living in a generally lower cost area such as, for example, the republic of Georgia, lets you earn at a higher US rate while living at a lower cost. That difference may allow you to travel more and explore other areas.