Ask HN: Burnt out developer trying to move out of Iran, advices?

If you've been working as a developer, how do you not have any resume/job history?

You can and should be able to work as a developer without the job being hell. There are dozens of us that actually enjoy our work :)

Don't learn COBOL.

How about Canada? I have a few Iranian colleagues and it seems to be relatively easier to get a PR than say US.

> 2. If I get hired as a developer, can I have a life outside my work or I'm gonna have to learn the new hipster framework after work hours for the rest of my life?

I understand your frustration, but the phrasing doesn't hint at a great attitude here.

This reminds me of yesterdays "I'm disabled and out of money. Now what?" post. Where an ex founder and developer had problems working half time and earning their living costs of $1500/month.

Multiple people asked why they don't do remote work via UpWork. And the poster answered none of them.

Here it confuses me even more.

Why would someone with coding skills work for 350USD/month?

Can't you work remotely for $XX/hour?

1. It's possible, but it's not easy to find those companies, as it's not really something you can really ask in an interview. You can possibly ask about work-life balance at least, and see what people say. Your best bet might be a large corporation with a steady but older product or technology.

2. Hard to say. I don't spend much time outside of work learning new tech, but I also try to find jobs where I get to practice them on the job, too (i.e. my current job is React, which I didn't know before taking this job, with various AWS/Azure tech I have to pick up bits and pieces of).

3. No, I wouldn't personally do that, especially on your salary. I've been able to get jobs without even sharing my github, which has almost nothing on it anyway, and nothing pertaining to the jobs I apply for (it's all game-related or some tiny scripts). I've also never had any interviewer ask me any questions based on my github when I have included the link. Also there have been times where I've been tossed a resume and been asked to interview someone in like, fifteen minutes, so I didn't have time to review a github properly. At best I'd check a portfolio website link if it was available, and read descriptions of the projects. I imagine many interviewers are given similar notice and don't have time to check your supporting links.

4/5. If you go the route of learning COBOL, you're going to be very limited in the types of jobs you can get and the industries you can work for (mainly government agencies and banks). I don't really know how lucrative it is, I've heard it can be, but every year more companies move away from it, so your options will keep decreasing. I personally wouldn't want to be in that position.

6. If you're only making 350 USD a month, I would definitely try to emigrate to another country. There's a lot more money you could be making if you were based out of another country (and still working remotely). I don't really know what to suggest there, as I've lived in the US my whole life and don't have those experiences, but there should be a path where you can increase your standard of living.

...learn about crypto and try to work remotely getting paid in it - unfortunately you'll likely have to work on cryptocurrencies and smart-contracts, but it beats COBOL ;) After you've saved enough, gtfo your country and get asylum anywhere it's not sanctioned (say you're a gay satanist foodie passioned about pork sushi etc.).

Not condoning tax evasion, but some countries deserve it.

I would look into WordPress. It’s still the most popular way to build websites.

- there is a huge ecosystem of themes and plugins that need development and maintenance

- it’s not “cool” so you have far less hype and trends

- the basic tech stack changes pretty slowly and you mostly don’t need to learn “hipster frameworks”

This post smells like BS to me. Not sure where this guy is working but I don’t know anyone making 350 a month as a dev with the supposed experience that you do,in Iran. 350 is what a college kid makes.

Try Canada or Australia. Also as a temporary solution you can open a bank account in Turkey or Azerbaijan and start doing some upwork.

1. Yes, there are a ton of normal 9-5 dev jobs in the west

2. Learn React + any backend technology and you're fine

3. No. People don't really care about open source if you have experience (unless it is a highly notable project).

4. No. Stick with JS.

5. No. Software is the easiest best paying career by a long shot. Doubly so for someone without a degree.

6. Move to Canada

Hi. Not in a similar situation whatsoever but I've worked in both Europe and the US.

1. Yes you can, developers are still in high demand meaning the relationship employer / employee is not as one sided as in other jobs. That being said, if you get a visa sponsored by a company it can change that relationship. There are still lots of good companies out there though.

2. Depends on your specialty, some aspects of tech do evolve much faster than others. Frontend development tooling is one of them and it does require to stay up-to-date-ish. But usually it's not that hard to learn a new framework if you have solid experience in the domain. Backend, infrastructure development tends to have longer cycles.

3. If you are already cash constrained I wouldn't. Can you build your resume from your work experience?

4. COBOL is a niche technology, not dying anytime soon but you would constrain yourself to a small number of industries and companies. I'm biased by my own industry but web development (typescript) or backend development (go/rust/python) seem to be skills that would cover a broader set of companies.

5. Not sure how it is in Iran but in the US / Europe software development is likely one of the cushiest jobs you can get and one that has the biggest chances of being sponsored for a visa. Sure there can be lots of pressure from time to time, bad managers, crunch etc, but overall we have it easy compared to lots of other industries / jobs.

6. If you actually believe that "Iran is on edge of economic/social/life-basics collapse." my advice would be to try to get out asap. It will likely be a couple of years of hard work (to apply to companies, get a visa etc) but will be worth it down the road.

Good luck.

Yeah you can. Just build stuff that's useful, and eventually, you'll build negotiation power

Your wife's career is probably less portable than yours in an international move. Definitely make that part of the decision. I think your skillset and work habits would be ideal for in-house tech work at non-tech companies, where the more fundamental web technologies are directly used, and the tech, though perhaps important to keep running well, is not a major driver of the business value such that you will be put under intense pressure to deliver too fast.

Hi there!

I'm sorry to see Iran undergo hardship. I love Iranian hospitality and literature. I plan to learn the language someday. I wish you all the best.

To answer your questions,

1. Yes, definitely. Especially in one of the countries you mentioned + Canada. I'd work for a non-profit or a university if I were you. Work/life balance is great.

2. Yes, you can have a life. Just don't do JavaScript. Go for a slow-paced field. Find a mature and boring tech and learn it. COBOL sounds good.

3. Probably. But your success depends on your emigration.

4. From the work/life balance point-of-view, COBOL sounds good. But finding a job is another question. If you think you can find a job, go for it. Otherwise learn a popular but mature language/ecosystem.

5. In your situation, I'd migrate first, get a degree in CS, and work part-time as a developer in the meanwhile. In the long run, this will be rewarding financially.

6. Go for it. You don't have kids. Things would have been difficult with kids.

My advice, do remote jobs that pay in crypto until you've saved enough until you can travel out of the country. even if you make it to Turkey Today and are able to get online with a bank account, you're set up for global commerce.

Focus on front end web design if you have to and partner with a local graphic designer to land bigger contracts.

feel free to DM on twitter if you need specific advice. I'm just a hamvatan but not a developer.

There’s plenty of good work out there with whatever language stack you already have. If you’re reasonably competent, by which I mean “can ship a code change to a familiar code base without being told what to do for every step”, you’re fine. Tech will be your best approach, especially if you’re planning to emigrate.

Sanctions are going to be a much bigger hurdle. I’ve known at least one Iranian citizen living stateside with a proper employer-employee W2 relationship, so I think you’ll be okay once you’ve got at least legal residency & work permit elsewhere, though a second passport may well be better. (I am definitely not a lawyer or sanctions professional.)

If you’re open to entrepreneurship, do you know anyone locally to you that runs their own business & collects payments from countries other than Iran? You could check with them for advice.

A lot of great advice in this thread.

One more though, your origin (Iran) is unfortunately not doing you a favor. If you decide to follow an industry or alike, consider that you might fight some ressentiments / legal restrictions. For example, public, manufacturing or similar industries most likely will be very cautious at hiring someone from Iran.

My 2 cents. Learn Java, SQL, Spring. Those technologies are in demand and they're not changing fast.

Just a counterpoint to the comments who talk positively about the COBOL idea:

When it comes to COBOL, the main problem isn't actually the programming language itself, it's everything else around it. Most companies who need COBOL have a horrible tech culture & situation and are stuck with a pile of shitty, undocumented COBOL dating back decades.

If you're going to be doing COBOL, your problem won't be COBOL, it will be the archeology that you will have to do to reverse-engineer the existing system, the pressure you'll be under to deliver something fast under those constraints and the blame you'll take when it inevitably explodes (forget about CI/testing or a staging environment).

COBOL is not just a programming language but an entire ecosystem completely different from mainstream computing. Forget SQL DBs, forget UNIX terminals - you'll need to learn how to use & develop for mainframes - it's a closed ecosystem guarded by IBM which means there aren't many free resources available to learn from or get help, and it is so different that the skills you'll learn won't be transferrable to modern, non-mainframe development.

Furthermore, all of the above doesn't actually pay that well. I'm sure you've heard all the media attention about COBOL and how systems are failing all over the place because there are no developers to maintain them - well that's a lie, the problem isn't that there are no developers to maintain them, it's that there are no developers to maintain them at the price the company is willing to pay.

Finally, COBOL is mostly still used by governments or large companies which would be very hard to get into due to your origin.

(1) definitely yes

(2) definitely yes, but stay away from front end web stuff if you want to avoid it

(3) that depends on the visibility of the product and on whether or not you think it will help you land a job afterwards, a well respected maintainer of project 'X' or a high profile contributor would not find it all that hard to get a job with a company that is a large scale user of 'X'.

(4) that's an interesting thing, not the first one that I would try but I like your 'out of the box' thinking. Personally I'd go for something that is more in demand but that people dislike, such as either administrative software or embedded. The jobs are more interesting than they seem on the outside and typically job security is reasonably good because these are not boom-or-bust companies.

(5) you should definitely look for better jobs continuously for the first couple of years

(6) yes: concentrate on finding out which country is the most friendly with your country in terms of accepting immigrants and then work backwards from there. That's the biggest problem you will have to deal with the rest is essentially a side-show.

It is a hard time globally now and getting worse: anywhere will be a challenge, make it easier by going somewhere without high barriers of entry with receptive communities.

Why no resume? Just write down your experiences in sequence. Personal stuff can be included too, most employers of substance only care about skills at the end of the day.

I've met some young Iranians who made it out independently, even in non-tech fields (eg. architecture) in Southeast Asia. SEA is a good potential initial destination. Gets you out and networking and is not over the top (vs. western countries) for flights/visas. Bali, Malaysia and Thailand have a bit of tech presence. Don't recommend the other countries for various reasons but you could always try.

I heard Thailand recently flipped policy to offer 10K THB (USD$275)/year for a remote work long-stay visa, valid ~5-10 years IIRC. Unsure if it lets you get a bank account. (Compare ~AUD$8K=USD$5420 for a provisional immigration visa to Australia - if you qualify.) It's going to be chance to hit the right vein but there are 100% people in SEA who will appreciate your skills and willingness to commit for the opportunity.

Consider contact with the established Sikh community (generally trustworthy, international, reliable, moral types of good character by all accounts), or more generally crypto and tech meets (less so). Just reach out.

I wouldnt focus on cobol mostly because there are not a ton of cobol jobs. There are some. And they need people. But there are far more open javascript or c# or java roles.

I'd focus on full stack javascript/C# development since it seems like you know some of that already. Get some experience freelancing if you can and build your resume up for when you move.

Follow your wife on a spouse visa , she should be able to get a good job in Australia or UK, you might also want to consider Singapore and Malaysia too. I suggest you work hard an md focus on getting a qualification- degree in comp sci or something, accountancy may maybe, then you too can qualify for an employment visa as well as your wife. Having qualifications is everything when you are outside your home country - and you often end up only being a ale to get employment visas that are relevant in your qualifications - same for everyone that one i believe.

I happen to know (quite well) an Iranian who was in a similar position to you before he came to Europe, except he had a lot of IT experience (and a finished degree) before attempting to move to Europe, but it's not working out for him. He's basically prohibited from working while he's trying to get a residence permit. That has been denied several times because he's basically (like you would be) an 'economic refugee'. He didn't speak the local language and he was too overwhelmed with how different everything was here to really learn. He got basically 0 callbacks on the dozens if not 100's of job applications he send out, despite wide-spread labor shortages in exactly the sorts of positions he applied for. Very little to none of his Iranian work experience counted for anything here (differences in certification systems, couldn't/can't get his university degree accredited). He's a few years older than you are (43 I think?) but you'll be too by the time you get out in the time frame you indicate, and this is an age that's already starting to work against you, especially if you're already burnt out.

You'll need 1000's to 10's of 1000's of EUR/USD to move anywhere in the West, otherwise you'll end up in refugee centers from where it'll be exceedingly hard to get/keep stable employment. It'll be very hard to find housing on a budget anywhere where there are economic opportunities in the fields you're looking in, so expect costs of several thousands a month (let's even say just 2k for everything for the two of you) - and you'll have to be able to pay those until you get a job.

As you will know, after you leave Iran it'll be pretty much impossible to get any cooperation from the Iranian government to get any of your paperwork validated/accredited etc (I've seen real problems stemming from that with several Iranians in the diaspora of the guy I was talking about above).

Your wife's job will be very hard to impossible to do here without basically going through university again. And you/she will not be eligible for scholarships. Nobody will really think of her experience in Iran as being applicable in Europe (regardless of how true or not that is), save for some niche circumstances like her being able to find a job working for an Iranian company or a company that works with Iranian companies a lot. I don't have to tell you that there are very few of those around.

Not to be a Debby Downer, but at least if you plan to come to Europe, make very sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Fair or not, you'll be lumped in with 100's of thousands of other Middle Eastern and African refugees, and it'll be very hard to get your foot in the door in professional jobs in Western Europe (and I imaging in Southern- or Eastern Europe it'll be more difficult still, as you'll have basically 0 chance without speaking the local languages very well).

Have you looked at the Canadian express entry program? You would be making less $ that you can make in the USA but it is easier to deal with immigration, and that is still much, much more than $350/mo. Could probably work remotely for a company in the USA after that.

There are plenty of companies that like using their same old .NET or Java, you don't need newest JS...

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...