Tell HN: I have the perfect job, why is it not enough?
I am in my mid-thirties, working four days a week, and making over 100k. I have a house, a good relationship with my wife, and young and healthy kids.
I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve. I do not have meetings. One or sometimes two 30 min calls a week with my boss. Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not even customer contact.
If I knew I could have a job like this ten years ago, I would have thought that's it, the dream.
But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough.
I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects. It is probably human to always want more.
So HN, how did you settle and slow down and become happy with the way it is without always wanting more?
328 comments
[ 8.7 ms ] story [ 363 ms ] thread* If you want to try something, try it! Save up some runway, do your own thing. Try some other projects right now, don't wait. (You won't be able to devote full time effort to them, but can still make progress.) You may find that what you dream about isn't all that, or maybe it is. Either way you can take steps forward.
* I learned to be happy with my life after I'd taken a few alternative paths. Nothing like jumping to a situation, realizing it wasn't what you thought it was, and then jumping to a different situation, then realizing it wasn't all that great, then jumping to a different situation... After I did this a few times, I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not try to find it elsewhere. YMMV.
* It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that time.
This. So many times over. Everything else can be done later or slowly. Don't miss the good bits!
YES. Not "this weekend" or "when things open up a bit," do it now. The river won't part for the stone voluntarily, you need to jam it in the water …
Also, if you can: merge bullet 1 & 3. Try something new with your kids. Learning and exploring together is an amazing experience.
If you want a laundry list of things to start getting into:
- Becoming handy, teach your kids as you do it so they have that life skill. Being considered handy simply is a mindset - do you have the confidence to figure something out via some google searching etc....
- Martial arts - I took Ju-jitsu for 4-5 years and I can tell you martial arts appeals to software engineers - its highly technical which engages your brain, yet very physical which is an area we swe's hardly ever get to use.
- strength training - will increase your energy - physique - and some other passive benefits for your relationship - also something you can get into with your kids and help teach them healthy habits.
- cooking - save money and eat some tasty food - a good cookbook I swear by is America's Test Kitchen Cookbook - they cook things 20 different ways and explain why they settled on a particular approach - along with good explanations of cooking techniques
One of the best things I did was started a "family game night" every week. Bought a handful of board games and each Saturday we'd sit down with pizza and games. No cellphones at the table. It was a huge success for us. It allowed us to learn new things together and it helped build a foundation for us all to grow from. Even now with all but one of my kids grown, when we get together games are brought out and we have a blast. Nowadays I'm teaching my grandson to play some simple ones and can't wait for him to join in.
> I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not try to find it elsewhere
I fully agree, but it's really hard to do so even if you know that's the right way.
Yes! I agree it isn't easy to do this and I struggle daily, but haven't found a better path.
Certainly alcohol, partying, entrepreneurship, clubs, sports, travel, and adventure (the main paths I've tried) haven't succeeded in providing immediate happiness without effort on my part. (They all had their good aspects, don't get me wrong, but nothing intrinsically made me happy all the time and I was always left wondering "what's over there".)
I don't know if I'm wired differently, but my oldest kid is in HS and my youngest is halfway through elementary school, and while I didn't hate the time I spent with my kids, I don't feel like I derived a whole lot of personal enjoyment out of it.
I still would make the same decision -- feeling loved and cared for rather than abandoned is a great gift to any child -- but with a lot of the "milestones" in life it seems to me that a lot of the benefit to doing these things is not staying up late at night wondering if things would have been better had I not missed out...
As a good quote I heard once said "No success can compensate for failure in the home"
jobs come and go, achievements are eventually forgotten, and wealth doesn't last forever, but your family will be pretty constant.
No? There's divorces and death and all kinds of bad things...
It doesn't mean they are bad things, and it doesn't mean you need to uproot your whole life to make yourself happy. But maybe you need to look around you, ser what you enjoy, what you think is important now.. What are your real values, and then your decisions in the future can help you lead a fulfilling life.
The important things I’ve done to make myself feel more satisfied in my life are:
- Be grateful for the things you have. Write about them in a journal, talk about them with your spouse, etc. - Give back. Donate money to a cause you care about, get your hands dirty volunteering, do something to make the world a little better. - Recognize that you’ll never be 100% satisfied and that’s OK. Continue moving up in your career, invest in keeping your relationships strong, etc. Don’t get lazy.
Certainly the easy path, if you can stomach it, is to satisfy yourself with personal material success. But you might need something else. Congrats, you're human.
A perfect job does not prevent or cure depression.
>A former user of cocaine, heroin, and LSD, Bourdain wrote in Kitchen Confidential of his experience in a SoHo restaurant in 1981, where he and his friends were often high. Bourdain said drugs influenced his decisions, and that he sent a busboy to Alphabet City to obtain cannabis, methaqualone, cocaine, LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, secobarbital, tuinal, amphetamine, codeine, and heroin.[125]
Well, a complex enough person, he was.
> Well, a complex enough person, he was.
I read Kitchen Confidential in 2008 when I was an undergrad and while working in catering; the truth is that that kitchens is where you will find some of the most broken and subsequently some of the most interesting people you will ever encounter. That sad reality is that substance abuse is often just a coping mechanism/self medication for unaddressed mental health issues.
I felt Bourdain was suicidal when I read KC back then, and to be honest when he killed himself I was on my last tour in kitchens and I was the only one not entirely shocked or surprised.
His life was marred with lots of demons, and his success was enviable for anyone who has ever worked line, but he could never get away from that simple fact. Roadrunner was interesting, but sadly entirely woeful because it reminded me how much progress was lost because the entire culinary industry was riding on just him and all the media attention he could garner. There were many lost projects that will never come to fruition, and to me that is was I feel was the real loss.
He as a person probably wanted to die this way his whole life, so I can't see why anyone would feel sorry for him.
see what your body can do, it is clear that your mind has accomplished a lot
the contentment of a great workout is hard to beat
Though I do feel I need to see what my mind can accomplish. I'm a DS Manager (was an air traffic controller) but the role isn't technically difficult.
Don't dislike it, don't worry about it, just embrace it.
This too is sacred.
My dad stacked boxes of pickles for 30 years. I don't remember him complaining about work to my mom, or to us. I don't think he even ever looked for another job. He just went to work and came home at the end of the day.
- read stoicism, start anywhere, keep reading
- check in with a counselor
- consider your relationship with "god" -- is it fake? Step up or step back.
- get a hobby; here are mine: real estate, woodworking, software projects, private pilot, ham radio
Apologizes since this is slightly off topic from the rest of the thread, but: any chance I could bounce some questions off you about the process of getting a private pilot's license? I took an "intro" flight, and have started studying towards the written test, but I have a few questions that I would love to ask.
My email is in my profile - let me know if there's a good way to reach out to you.
1. body - food, water, shelter, sleep. check 2. safety - freedom, stability. check 3. love and belonging: friends & family. check 4. self realization: prestige, respect, achievements.. ???? that's your next step. 5. the dream: full complete realization of ones potential.
read up on this thing, check it out.
also maybe useful questions to ask:
1. how is my last month going to look like - how do I wanna die. invision it. 2. maybe think. what would you do if you only had week, month, year to live? maybe go do it? is it realy impossibly to do while paying mortgage? chances are it isnt.
also, maybe list things you like about yourself and things you dont like. wanna work on those you dont like?
There have been a lot of post floating around the internet with various solutions, the most popular being Stoicism > Positive Psychology / Happiness research > Buddhism / Meditation. I've dabbled a little in all of them and they all have something to offer.
Essentially, you are experiencing a disconnect between how it feels to be you and how you expected to feel. As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though.
The above mentioned happiness research / positive psychology suggests that having multiple, meaningful social roles that you can fulfill outside of work will allow you to shoulder more responsibility and find meaning in your life.
What I'm trying say is that in the second half of life, it is our job to give back. So start there.
Also, this is in my morning bookmarks to revisit: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/engine...
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen...
(The main site goes to great lengths to force registration, even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile user-agent is detected)
1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahh...
I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would go out after work 4 nights a week with something different.
A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more. But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and burnout.
Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.
Are these major cities or more rural?
I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are mostly social and drinking oriented.
Reminded me of https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
> I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)
Relevant discussion of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
I think you summarized it well :)
Maybe that’s your beef, maybe not.
My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?
Don’t despair. It’s all good. Give yourself props for mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow‘s pyramid. You’ve achieved something most people on this planet never will.
Onto the last one. Good luck with that!
I think for some it's worth challenging the need for a "legacy" in the first place. This certainly is what helped my well-being, not feeling like I had to accomplish X or achieve Y for life to have been "worth it." I want to be kind, stay fed, and help others feel like things are OK which can be done through service both big and small. I guess it's about finding larger meaning in the smaller interactions vs. larger artifacts of legacy.
I'm not entirely in love with how I've represented my thoughts on this, but hopefully the meaning is conveyed.
I don't have any issue with legacy, but I do with purpose. What's the point of it all? That's my core struggle.
I've always wondered, if "god" made us, then who made "god"? And why? What am I doing here? Work, eat, sex, get old, get sick, die?
1) Why does your existence need a "point"? Is the need to define such a thing coming from something innate, or is it a reaction to the world and expectations around you?
2) Define your own purpose, that's all anyone has ever done. There is nothing inherent. You almost certainly can't go wrong by giving your time to others, but even less "high-minded" pursuits - such as just consuming, appreciating culture - are valid paths. I think people fall into the trap of believing the only valid purpose is one that leaves a mark. It's a miracle any of exist, it's a valid purpose to just experience that miracle (hopefully in a way that doesn't preclude, or perhaps even enables, others to do the same).
But I'm not particularly informed, just relaying my own journey with this question.
There's also a somewhat therapeutic thought pattern that goes something like this:
Would I even want to live in a world where someone, or some thing, has pre-determined my purpose?
... I think it's relatively easy to say 'eek! No!'
So then, define your own purpose (2)!
Ok... I can do that. My purpose in life is to just get through it, not give up, and try when possible to improve the lives of others, especially children and young adults.
I guess the secret is in finding peace with that purpose. It's not grandiose, it's not going to leave a mark, but it's probably the most realistic based on my aspirations and drive. Of course I'd love to say that my purpose is eradicating some childhood illness, or starting a business empire, or discovering a new form of energy... but yea, those aren't realistic and are likely to make me feel worse if I try to adopt them as my purpose in life.
Anyways, just my thoughts as I digest your post. Thanks.
I personally think their is beauty in simplicity, including in this purpose. Though I'd perhaps maybe add something around "finding some joy" beyond "just getting through it", but that is coming from my own values/worldview, not from any sort of informed wisdom.
But I do still dream of also starting a chicken rescue farm.
Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas: Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!
I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile. Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being upgraded to better and better luxury.
Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on Okinawa sucks again.
Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad. Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.
I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended period).
I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the journey is how you derive purpose.
So how should we treat chronically ill people? As I have some in my circles, and would actually appreciate insight.
What remains in your opinion? What do you tell to a chronically ill person?
> I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile.
Huge yikes. I can understand adapting to the circumstances, but the concept of combat deployment becoming fun is highly alarming to me. My most charitable interpretation—that your sense of fun was derived from camaraderie during downtime under difficult circumstances, not from actual combat action or from thrill-seeking in a defensive position—the most minimal yikes I can muster is “I would never wish to watch MASH on fast forward this way”.
What he meant was some "possibly enjoyable" state which was different from the "bored comfortable tedium" into which he had settled in.
We all have had similar experiences. When you have too much of the same routine however comfortable, your mind craves some "new" stimulus which will break the tedium.
Correct. I saw none. :)
1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to.
2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
>A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
Mushrooms are way, way, way safer than what people believe. For people who are sane (i.e not suffering from psychosis) it is perfectly safe to do an entry level 2-3.5 gram shroom trip with a trip sitter. You can read all the studies, the negative effects are pretty much non existent, the only stuff that gets mentioned is the meta-effects from things like being disoriented and tripping and falling - thus the trip sitter.
Grass is always greener, but we have it easy in software and it's good to remember that.
All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs, started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all... emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!).
If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die. I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine: https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-...
Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness in helping someone else succeed.
I've been trying to find games that are personal to the developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the name of your game?
perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making the world a better place.
Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...
If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials, holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.
I've struggled with the same thoughts above, and giving back is helpful. I've tried to document it (https://www.codekindly.org/) with these principles of giving back by coding kindly:
Be Kind to the Earth: reduce code waste, utilize green infra
Be Kind to Community: donate code, give to charity
Be Kind to Users: protect privacy, provide joyful experiences
Be Kind to Yourself: physical + mental health, cultivate relationships
It's a shift in mindset to find fulfillment in your current job