I can sympathize. For example, while I love to go to great pizza restaurants that use the freshest ingredients and the best dough, I am often still attracted to takeaway pizza of worse quality - it's great comfort food.
A friend of mine once proposed that we just coin a new word for the latter, and instead of calling it pizza call it 'dough-cheese-wedge'. I agreed, because I do like nice freshly made Italian pizza, I also frequently order a gigantic dough-cheese-wedge from my local kebab shop and consume it to great satisfaction. They're just completely different foods designed for different circumstances, and I love them both.
Like most things, coffee is subject to diminishing returns. I have also owned nearly every device invented to make coffee - as I'm sure many others here have - and I've settled on a simple over-the-mug pour-over cone, but mainly because there's no moving parts or tubes to worry about cleaning. I don't even know what "correct" pour-over technique is, so I'm basically making bog-standard single-serving drip coffee with store-brand beans, and I couldn't be happier with it.
Ultimately I think fancy coffee is the same as fancy beer - it's not about the quality of taste of the thing, but rather it's about tribal membership and signaling. Among certain groups of people, caring deeply about 1% gains in taste value from small changes in coffee preparation or hop blends is a chance to prove your worthiness to the in-group.
The fact that so many can honestly profess that these tiny gains in subjective taste experience are Very Serious Business is a testament to humans' ability to convince ourselves of just about anything.
You can take my espresso machine from my cold dead hands. Then again I don’t understand why Americans pay so much for their coffee. Here 1kg of fairly good single origin coffee is 22€ and the quality is miles ahead of instant. You don’t have to become an insufferable snob to enjoy better coffee.
You’ve given me my opportunity to be a pedantic coffee snob… those don’t make espresso as they don’t generate enough pressure. But they do make fantastic coffee.
The moka pot is how I transitioned from coffee as a utility drink to coffee I enjoy drinking. James Hoffman (popular coffee YouTuber) has a video[1] where he goes over what it takes to get consistently good results out of the moka pot - it's not easy. Used naively they kinda go heavy "bitter and dark".
What appealed to me about the moka pot at the time was the reeeeeally "strong" coffee flavor. As I've moved away from it, I think my palate was just geared towards really dark roasts - very little the bean brings to the table at that point.
I didn't find his advice on preheating the water (and also cooling down the pot before pouring the coffee out) to be particularly useful (or make any appreciable difference at all) but got a few burns for my trouble. Grrr.
Better to go straight to the source [1] (who Hoffmann credits in his video). You don’t need to preheat the water in a separate kettle, you can preheat it in the base. You just need a towel or some mitts for when you screw on the top. The other trick to it is to keep moving it on and off the heat, keeping it at the minimum temperature to keep the coffee flowing gently up and out of the spout, and then stopping it before it gets over extracted.
I'll give it a proper retry and see how it goes. I still wonder at the risk of burns with preheating, so am more interested in the on/off strategy. Thanks!
I have never seen anyone (here in Italy) pre-heating the water, what may make a difference is that we normally use the lowest possible flame (on a gas burner), in Italy kitchen stoves have typically 4 burners, of which one is very small and in practice "dedicated" to the Moka or to heat very small quantities of liquids, and when making coffe it is usually set to the minimum (actually those caring about it start with a medium flame and then lower it to a minimum, and switch it off completely when about 1/3 to 1/2 of the coffe has come out).
On electric (resistive) stoves the behaviour may be different.
I love the Moka Pot. I have an aeropress but there is something delightful about just leaving the Moka Pot on the stove and hearing it bubble and deliver fresh coffee. They look cool, it's less effort, and there are fewer variables to worry about.
I visited Italy - and became a fan. Came back and bought a moka pot. Has been my only coffee making gadget (well, grinder too) now for 5 years. It makes me two cups in the morning. I add 1/3 part Chobani oat milk. Such a wonderful simple pleasure. The routine of grinding the beans and filling the water then coffee then screwing it together and then waiting for the gurgling sound that means its done - all part of that pleasure. Is good like slow sex.
It is even better if you pre-heat the water before pouring it to the pot. Then heating the water just enough it comes up from the pipe. Keep the temps low and don't let it boil on the top. It helps if you keep the lid open.
What exactly do you mean by "pay so much"? E.g. I could buy a KG of single origin that I'd call "fairly good" for about $33 bucks - which recently would've been like 28 Euros though it's about 1-to-1 now - is that what you mean? Or are you meaning much more than that? Like comparing to retail "fancy coffee shop" US drink price?
(There's a lot of range in what one person might call fairly good compared to the next, too, of course.)
The price you are giving me is indeed between 30% and 50% above the one I pay and the 22€ is post-taxes while I suspect you are giving me a pre-taxes price in the USA. My understanding from reading Reddit was that 40$ a kilo was not uncommon.
Whole or ground coffee is not subject to sales tax anywhere in the US that I know of since coffee is a grocery. Although a prepared cup of coffee (from Starbucks for example) is taxed.
Two weeks ago I paid $9 for a pound of whole bean coffee from a good local roaster. That may be a bit below average but $11/lb is easy to find if your not living in a high-dollar, high-status coastal city.
You could definitely spend $40, $60, probably even more for a kg in the US, but I think that's fairly uncommon.
Something costing 30-50% different in another country is kinda what I'd expect, the double or triple stuff I think would more be fancy people being extra-fancy.
Those same beans are about half that price when green. It's not snobbery so much as laziness that has me get 10ish kgs of a variety of types delivered every few months.
Or people drink fancy beer because it tastes good. Does "fancy" mean "not produced by a global corporation?" If High Life is your favorite, great, stroll down to the local brewery and buy their pale lager.
I like your point about signalling. It's also true that the vast majority of people are not fussy about coffee and can drink anything. If you stay on the internet long enough it's easy to feel like you're the weird one for not investing in an expensive grinder or coffee machine or caring about the type of beans you use, while those people are actually the very small majority, they just broadcast it loudly.
What is there to broadcast if you are drinking the same Maxwell House every single day for a decade?
On the other hand, those in coffee culture are always talking about beans to buy, why their coffee tastes messed up this month, how to fix their machines, how to adjust their grind to the latest roast they are trying (every roast needs a different grind).
They're more vocal because there is a lot more to discuss.
I agree that it's not really about the "quality" of the taste of the thing, I strongly disagree it's generally about tribal membership and signaling. I'm reasonably deep into coffee snobbery now, but not as a part of any group - the only person who knows would be my wife. I genuinely enjoy good coffees and often it's the highlight of my morning. I don't think I'm unique in that, especially since the pandemic.
That said, as with craft beer I think it's very often not about the objective quality (if there is such a thing) so much as it is the novelty. I'm guessing the people you portray negatively are more interested in the fads and trends and always chasing something new than enjoying what's in front of them. The perk of that is funding a broader assortment of offerings, the downside is as you mentioned that it can bring elitism and gate keeping.
I think your "tiny gains in subjective taste experience" is glossing over very real and dramatically different flavors (like a sour beer vs. a hoppy beer).
You can get a lot more mileage out of stuff you put into coffee than the coffee, flavored creamers and the like. I like Vietnamese style coffee with condensed milk myself, also a type of pour over coffee
> The fact that so many can honestly profess that these tiny gains in subjective taste experience are Very Serious Business is a testament to humans' ability to convince ourselves of just about anything.
Indeed. I've worked in places with very fancy machines and with nice beans. I nearly always drink black coffee, so I can certainly taste differences between various coffees, though I don't think I can reliably describe them. I just like that it varies from place to place.
However, my default coffee option at home is a simple cafetière (aka French press) and a kettle. I don't do much else other than, if I'm paying attention, waiting a minute or two too let the water of the boil. Nearly always, I'm as happy with this as I am with the fanciest barista coffee.
Also, it is interesting how much the taste and experience varies even with the same machine/method and same coffee. Sometimes it'll be amazing; sometimes, what is probably objectively the same thing just falls flat. I assume it's connected strongly to mood as well as whatever else I have eaten recently, ambience, expectations and so on. I can't think of another food or drink with the same variation between experiences, except perhaps alcohol, which I don't use often enough to make the same claim.
French press brewers are great and nothing to be ashamed about using. There are two big variable that you can tweak when using it, the grind size and the time you keep the coffee brewing before plunging and pouring. Water temperature is a third variable but with a basic kettle don't worry about it and just use water off a boil. If you decrease the grind size it increases the extraction, and if you brew for longer it also increases the extraction (to a point).
When you get wildly different results from the same beans it likely means you've changed one of those variables. Try playing around to find a good balance of grind size and time brewed. I usually like a kosher-salt level of grind size (moderately coarse) with a 4 minute or so brew time. But if the coffee comes out too bitter then I likely over-extracted it and increase the grind size or reduce the time brewing, and if too sour then it's probably under extracted (decrease grind or brew longer next time).
There's nothing wrong with a French press. Use great beans and a French press will make great coffee (with good ground size, water temp etc). The only real downside with them is that they don't filter all the grounds out of the final cup very well.
I can't stand espresso and pourover snobbery, but I admit I've gotten picky about the beans. Most beans I find in the grocery store taste like burnt cardboard to me now. I found a nice online indie roaster (https://swroasting.com/) that ships amazing light roast beans for the same price as my local retail. I also found that using a thermal carafe instead of a burner makes a huge difference (keeping the coffee hot on a burner makes it offgas and lose flavor quickly). I value my time so I use a grind-and-brew, the Breville Grind Control is the best one I know.
I think coffee is a lot more subtle than fancy beers. There are pretty big differences in taste among craft beer styles and breweries, and exploring the variety is part of the fun.
I love coffee, but don't differentiate it nearly as much. I can enjoy a fancy expresso just as much as a cup of supermarket coffee.
Like other posters, I agree that it's about more than taste, but disagree that it's about tribal membership. For me, it's also about ritual. Grinding beans and making coffee (pourover in my case) is a very nice relaxing experience with enjoyable sights and smells before you ever put the cup to your mouth.
> Ultimately I think fancy coffee is the same as fancy beer - it's not about the quality of taste of the thing, but rather it's about tribal membership and signaling.
I really really disagree, and I don't think it's an issue of being stuck inside the tribe, because I use all the same equipment, don't really give a shit (though think I should) about adjusting grind size or anything, have never timed a pour, and buying emergency supermarket/Illy coffee vs. my 'hipster' subscription is scrunch-my-face-up vs. mm-coffee.
I can drink Illy, I don't enjoy it but I can drink it.
I was recently subjected to parent-company-corporate-meeting-room push-a-button-to-pump-it-out-don't-even-know-how-they-made-it-probably-filter coffee, that I could not drink.
But who am I performing to by (not) doing so? When I do drink the coffee I like I'm remote working from home alone.
A former colleague's favourite 'coffee' is instant decaf. I believe him. I really disagree. I don't even really agree it counts as coffee. But that's his preference, people are different. Some are only happy with nice/fresh beans (my own suspicion is that it's more the freshness that counts than anything else, that supermarkets should just sell it like fruit & veg, and then they're laughing, no need to buy 'hipster'), others with anything.
Relatedly, there are days where I don't drink it at all, that I just get too distracted and I decide by that point what's the point, I'm awake, it's mid-afternoon, why drink coffee now. So it's not a case of needing a certain fix, and really I should just stop ever buying 'emergency' coffee that I don't actually like, and intentionally go without.
> don't even know what "correct" pour-over technique is
Well, hmmm, it would only take a few minutes to learn. Frankly I think your post is signalling (on a meta level). I know it probably doesn't feel like it, but that's what signalling usually feels like from the inside (it doesn't feel like you're doing it).
On the object-level, I think there are huge differences in quality when it comes to... most anything, including coffee, beer, chocolate, you name it. I don't think it's usually about "1%" gains.
> Ultimately I think fancy coffee is the same as fancy beer - it's not about the quality of taste of the thing, but rather it's about tribal membership and signaling.
Given most people drink coffee on their own at home with remote WFH standardized, who exactly are we signaling to?
Coffee like smoking is a habit formed around a drug addiction. Watching a Davidoff video on how to cut/light a cigar, a snobby whisky tasting video, or James Hoffman devoting hours to the perfect moka pot are all similar to me
Were caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol not pleasantly mind altering and addictive, I highly doubt many people consuming them, regardless of minor adjustments in their preparation.
That said I’m firmly of the opinion that french press, and moka make the best coffee for my taste.
> I don't even know what "correct" pour-over technique is, so I'm basically making bog-standard single-serving drip coffee with store-brand beans, and I couldn't be happier with it.
The correct technique is the technique that consistently makes you the coffee you like.
> Ultimately I think fancy coffee is the same as fancy beer - it's not about the quality of taste of the thing, but rather it's about tribal membership and signaling.
Most people aren't usually looking for novelty in their daily coffee, which is why they are often loyal to a particular coffee shop or method of preparation. This is true whether its Folgers instant coffee or shade grown Ethiopian.
If one is a daily beer drinker, then sure, the very experimental and unique flavored ones can be too much. But for me, beer isn't a daily beverage. It's a weekend or special occasion thing, like a cocktail, and for that, I'd rather have a more unique flavor.
"I don't know when it happened, but I've devolved into an unexpected love affair with bad coffee" - if I'd hazard a guess, maybe around the time the author joined Starbucks? :-)
That was my thinking - I can't imagine anyone who takes their coffee seriously deciding Starbucks was a good place to work. But then again I live in a city of 5+ million people that until recently had almost no Starbucks at all (and still only has about 15 I think). I could care less for single-origin microplot hand-roasted beans, but there's still a world of difference between what you get at Starbucks and the typical cafe here.
Congrats, you have bad taste. There's an easy middle ground between "a flat white at a Manhattan coffee shop" and instant coffee. Buy and grind fresh beans. Buy local instead of supporting Big Coffee and poor cultivation practices.
I won't turn up my nose at diner coffee but you don't have to be a snob to notice a huge difference. Besides I have bonded over flat whites before :(
Buying local with coffee only goes so far. The beans have some deeply unethical producers and while fair trade and organic beans go someway towards helping with this, they are pricey.
Anyone here worried about cafestol content? [1] What is your brewing technique that avoids this substance from getting into your coffee? Do you make your own filters?
it sounds like if you don't have cholesterol issues there isn't an issue with cafestol, and potentially some benefits. Just drink filtered coffee if you're worried.
People talk about 'bad coffee' but many times they don't say what constitutes bad coffee. We all have different preferences. There are some very expensive fancy coffees that I dislike because I taste them as overly sour or acidic. Meanwhile I can drink very expensive blue mountain or a very cheap nabob full city dark in an aeropress and enjoy both.
I used to occasionally get starbucks on the way to work but the line ups at the drive through have made 'fast' food not fast, and the price of starbucks coffee seems to have risen so high it wasn't hard to stop doing it.
I've had maxwell house instant, its not great, but its also not sour or acidic, so its just drinkable. Nescafe instant is fine too.
I got used to starbucks coffee but it is definitely a strong flavour. The coffee I mentioned before Nabob Full City Dark (Which might just be a thing in Canada only?) is a dark roasted coffee but when I drink it I get caramel overtones and not 'burned', but others might think it tastes burned.
I wish I could justify drinking nothing but blue mountain but that has to be reserved for when people I know go to jamaica and get some because the prices have reached insanity levels here - $50-100/lb.
Coffee culture took much longer to take hold in the US (or at least it seems that way). On my travels in the US over the last 30 years the coffee went from a horrifying, watery, burnt, disgusting dish water that came out of a drip pot to acceptable espresso like the rest of the world enjoys.
Instant coffee is much closer to that peculiar American burnt drip coffee horror which is what Americans seemed to used to expect out of coffee. I think it should be termed "american coffee" just so we know what you're talking about.
Strangely, despite Starbucks using espresso machines, they managed to almost perfectly capture that burnt, watery horror which I assume is why people go there for sugar laden, syrup filled concoctions rather than just decent coffee.
Although far worse than the drip coffee is that also peculiar american invention called "coffee creamer". It's a shameful product.
I don't think anything you've said is related to what I've said. You dislike 'burnt' tasting coffee, but there are plenty of instant coffees that don't taste like that. I've never had a coffee at starbucks that tasted watery in any way, nor are the customers getting regular coffee there the same customers getting fancy drinks.
I think you seem to have an obsession with imaginary american stuff rather than a discussion of what preferences you have. What about a good coffee do you think makes it good? What makes it taste bad? What do you mean by burned - do you dislike dark roasts? How do you feel about sour notes, or acidic notes, or fruity notes, etc etc.
That's the real question, not whether its american or not. I have a tough time drinking african coffees because most are too sour tasting for me. Meanwhile I poured a friend a very expensive cup of jamaican blue mountain and they said it tasted 'too plain' for them.
It's all about preferences, not snobbery about american this or american that. I don't like espresso, and never have. I don't care at all what the rest of the world enjoys, nor can I summarize 'this espresso tastes like what the rest of the world enjoys' because there are many many coffees and all of them are different enough that not everyone enjoys them all, and even if the whole world enjoyed something else that doesn't define what I enjoy nor will it ever do that.
You're very right here. Personally, my bar is quite low. I dislike chicory, which is often mixed with coffee, especially cheaper coffee blends. I find it very harsh and tasteless, and it ruins the experience for me. Almost everything else within the realm of 100% coffee is different levels of acceptable to me. I just can't stand chicory.
I agree in part I use a clever dripper with supermarket beans - just picked up 500g of alleged peruvian beans from lidl for £3.50
I like the taste of my drip coffee and I find most instant coffees harsh even the upmarket ones with micro grounds.
However in europe I do like my nescafe 3 in one sachets
I think coffee is stuational
It sounds like you'd be better served by caffeine pills then. No need to bother with a delivery mechanism you don't enjoy when there are easier solutions out there!
I used to be a caffeine pill person. Would get up at 4:30, have a caffeine pill and a glass of water, ride my bike for a couple hours, go to work. In that case, I wanted caffeine first and liquid later (throughout my ride) so I wouldn't have to make a "rest stop".
I kept up the caffeine pill habit after I stopped doing those rides (social life after work made going to bed at 8:30 a little untenable), but ran out and switched back to coffee. Coffee really gives you some extras that mere caffeine doesn't, I just feel a little "warmer" after a good cup of coffee. Also, all those papers you read about coffee being good for you are coffee, not necessarily caffeine. So if you want those benefits, I recommend the actual thing.
I have some friends who drink energy drinks just for the caffeine ("I hate the taste") and to that demographic I recommend caffeine pills wholeheartedly. If you don't like the taste of caffeinated beverages, don't drink them.
Absolutely! I enjoy my daily routine and all of the nuances associated with it (whether that's just the result of addiction is a different conversation). I was just suggesting that the parent comment doesn't need to use coffee for their caffeine fix if they don't enjoy it.
I certainly like instant coffee and prefer it over many other types I have tried. It took a few tries to find a good one, however. Perhaps it's because I mostly like coffee quite milky, which might cover over any quality issues.
Developing a taste for good coffee (or wine, etc) doesn't seem attractive to me. You end up needing more and more equipment. You need expensive high quality beans. It's typically messy, time consuming, takes up valuable kitchen space and expensive. I'd rather something ok, which is quick, cheap and convenient.
It’s coffee for people who don’t like flavor. “A taste without creamer or sugar has an initial bitterness that immediately becomes smooth and gentle. With sugar and milk, it is the mildest coffee you may ever taste. In fact, the coffee is specially processed in order to remove any bitterness yet still keep the flavor of a fine European coffee.”
I’m lazy and like coffee. The best middle ground I have found was a paper filter pour over with grocery store beans that I grind right before brewing. Whole beans ground at brew time is, for me, the biggest change.
I'm not a snob, but instant coffee is fairly rough when drunk black, it's best with milk as you say. Personally I have a moka pot / aeropress and a cheap manual grinder. The total cost is about $50 and it takes up no space at all. I don't have the desire to invest more effort than that, but for the people who do it's obviously a good value proposition for them.
I was actually pretty relieved when I realized I couldn't tell (or was indifferent to) the difference between good coffee and merely average coffee. Another hobby I didn't need to spend any more of my limited time/effort.
It's like when I tried on some audiophile headphones and discovered that they sounded the same as my $20 cheap ones. Saved myself months of "research" and hundreds of dollars, and marketing/ads bounce right off me.
Yea, I think delta matters more than just being objectively better. Going from those crappy iPhone default headphones to even a cheap pair of Sony earbuds made a huge difference. Going to the next level, our expectations say it should be a similar jump, which doesn't come, and we feel let down. The hype doesn't match.
Same, it's the same virtue signal as other fields like audiophile. Good smell is pretty wide range. "Ok" sometimes is actually "good".
There is a cappuccino chocolate milk in my local 7-11 (asia) that is about 50 cent. When I walked pass someone who drank it, i was accidentally breathing smell from their exhalation and surprised its smell is so good.
I feel fresh coffee beans is as good as ok-ish product in different way (excluding healthy ingredient aspect).
Coffee ended up being much more than just the beverage for me. I've never been the type of person to pay for coffee at a coffee shop each morning, which took most of the social aspect of it away. And at the time, I was buying, yes, bad coffee - specifically, the second-cheapest espresso roast that turned out to be made by Folgers, in spite of what the front of the tin said.
It was actually a local radio station (WERS Boston) that got me into a similarly local coffee roaster (Atomic Coffee). I got a bag of their coffee with a donation to the station, and I was hooked. Enough so that I now take friends to their cafe to hang out, and work with them to cater the coffee for an event I help run every year.
What's more, a number of my coworkers are coffee drinkers - sometimes, we'll bring in coffee to share; sometimes, we'll discuss the merits and demerits of such-and-such single origin blend; sometimes, there will be holy wars about the use of a moka pot versus a Chemex, or whole-bean with a burr grinder versus pre-ground. But all in good fun.
As for coffee, like many other parts of life (movies, food, and music especially), I find that I like it very good or very bad—as long as it’s not down the middle, I can find a time/place to enjoy it.
I have a fairly expensive Rocket Espresso machine, I’ve learned some latte art. I have every coffee making contraption out there. And I enjoy all of it, at times.
When I’m in a hurry I’ll make instant or go to a gas station. Totally fine and the gas station coffee is kind of a favorite of mine for long trips in the car.
What I almost never do is buy Starbucks because to me, it feels like that middle-of-the-road experience. I’m not making a statement about the company or the culture or anything like that. It just feels like going to Applebees or something (yes you’re out to eat, but shouldn’t you just go somewhere nice or, on the other hand, somewhere cheaper/faster where you don’t have to tip?). It’s too acidic and too expensive for what it is. I’d rather pay for something nicer or go cheap.
What are you ordering at Starbucks? I’ve found, if they aren’t too busy, you can ask the barista about the beans they currently have and order a pour over or French press that’s pretty good.
Meh, it's not that bad (at least outside the US, I've never been to a Starbucks in the US). I've been to plenty of places where Starbucks is the best espresso you can find.
Most Starbucks (again, possibly a non-US perspective) will make your drink in a ceramic cup/mug if asked. Only the smallest kiosk-type ones can't do it.
Indeed; for example the recent arrival and success of Starbucks in Italy was in some ways possible because of the pre-existing growth of 'craft'-type coffee shops which had expanded the idea of coffee, and of a coffee shop, beyond the traditional 'bar'.
Per my experience, there used to be a ton (~90s), then Starbucks took off and killed a lot of them (00-10s), and now they seem to be coming back as people avoid Starbucks (20s). But imagine that's subject to regional variance.
Big coffee guy, not really a fan of sbucks, but their "via" blonde roast is the best instant coffee I've had, ideal for camping coffee. Unfortunately the stuff I've had from smaller roasters (eg Verve) isn't that great.
My thing with Starbucks is that they have an opinionated flavor profile that trends heavily to (to me) wildly over-roasted. If that's what a person likes, have fun go bananas I'm not here to judge, but I don't think it's too crazy that someone just finds all Starbucks coffee to be hard to drink.
Rocket is the best! Upgraded from a Gaggia Classic (which my dad is now enjoying). The fact that I can make a latte that I genuinely think is better than a lot of the coffee places around me has really taken my snobbery to the next level (joking … sort of)
I'm in the same boat as you. I have a rolly-cart that I break out every day with all my coffee gadgets, but something about my local 7-11 coffee makes me go there at least once a week. They actually have solid coffee compared to all the other 7-11s around me, but it's also the short drive and talking to the nice owner that remembers me.
2. order one shot extra (starbucks will only put 1 shot of espresso in an 12oz tall--so you should order AT LEAST one extra shot).
3. ask for blonde roast, which is actually not half bad. pike place/standard is a disaster.
it will not parallel any craft coffee shop, but this actually makes for drinkable coffee, which is convenient since there are starbucks literally everywhere.
To elaborate, I usually end up mixing 3 cups of whole milk over the span of the day into it (usually done by 2pm), and then the combination of the fat and the caffeine keeps me full for a while after that, so I end up only having 450 calories until dinner, where even a large 1000 calorie dinner will keep me below my calorie goal.
My aunt endlessly researched all the options at Starbucks and then finally came up with this gold standard. (She writes out on a post-it for every visitor to her home and sticks it in their wallet so they can recite it in front of the barista.)
Cafe latte, tall, non-fat milk, one splenda. (This is fairly zero calorie.)
A stronger option is: Cafe latte, tall, an extra shot of espresso, non-fat milk, two splendas.
Plus one for 'as long as it's not down the middle'. Or, nothing by half measures.
Gas station coffee is a Rite. I am not a maniac, I use a burr grinder for locally & lightly roasted beans, and a v60. With an electric kettle that's about a five minute process, $1.30/300ml.
On the other hand, nothing beats an early morning pop-in to the 7/11, couple 24oz "Regular Roast" cups, slide the cardboard sleeves on, fit the lids, pack of non filtered Camels, and, as you say, a long trip in the car.
> As for coffee, like many other parts of life (movies, food, and music especially), I find that I like it very good or very bad—as long as it’s not down the middle, I can find a time/place to enjoy it.
I agree, but I think it's slightly more! The author doesn't like coffee, they understand the intimate knowledge of every aspect. And in doing so, they come to appreciate the interesting parts of the worst entries in the field. And the experiences those entries mean.
To give another data point, I really like pocket knives. I've been collecting them for nearly twenty years. I have some very expensive ones. My daily carries are usually around $200 or so. I seldom use them, however, and never heavily. And I often trade them away for other people's pocket knives. I love those $40 beaters that have seen a life of real and heavy use.
Those knives exist in a state of their own, just like bad coffee: they weren't created to be perfect, and nobody involved took as much care as they should. But the flaws make the end result more-valuable, in an important way."Wabi-sabi" might truly be the meaning of existence.
I am now thinking of all the time I spent in a split-level coffee shop in Seattle’s University district, and how little time I spent in it after it changed hands and name and became a Temple of Coffee Snobbery. Trabant got a name-drop in the graphic novel I was working on during that time, I couldn’t even tell you the name of the place that replaced it because their new vibe really just drove me elsewhere.
You can enjoy all kinds of disgusting and / or ridiculous things when you have some adjacent emotional connection. It’s one of the best things about life, keeping in mind it can work the opposite way too.
Thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed reading it.
I can totally relate to the what the author is saying. I went through a mini-version of the same journey.
For a while I was buying expensive beans, grinding them on a Baratza Vario (a mid-level grinder) to make espresso in my E-61 based heat exchanger machine. I made some excellent coffee with that setup and more than a few sink-shots.
I gave it up though because I found that the better I got at making coffee, the less I enjoyed it in general. I couldn’t enjoy a mug of diner coffee. I couldn’t drink the stuff they give you on an airplane or at a donut shop. I couldn’t deal with k-cups that work provided so I brought in a kettle and aeropress.
I’m better these days. Like the writer, I’m now able to enjoy just about any coffee I can get my hands on (although IHOP coffee still seems impossibly watery).
I experienced a very similar thing. With the pandemic I've been splurging on coffees, exploring different types, finding ones I really enjoy. Then I went out into the world and had a coffee from a regular ol' sandwich shop style cafe. Boy was it not what I was hoping for.
It turns out that over the course of the pandemic I've really refined what I actually like in coffee (for myself, not trying to say it's generally better) and basically nowhere serves it. Now I'm in a pickle - I absolutely love love love the coffee I get to have every morning when I wake up, and I don't generally enjoy the bulk of the coffee that's available in the world at large.
Before I enjoyed coffee so much I was able to enjoy coffee much more broadly.
I’m missing out on having a cup of coffee that I want. It’s something I could easily do before I got into espresso and it’s something I can do again now that I figured out that wanting better coffee was making my life worse.
Good grief. If you enjoy it then by definition it is not bad, it is good, even if it didn't cost you an arm and a leg and you got it at the grocery store or the diner. The coffee snobs can just go fuck themselves.
I had two life experiences that beat the culinary snobbery out of me. Many years ago I was a tea-totaller but I decided I wanted to develop a taste for wine (because social pressure) so I started a wine tasting group. It consisted of six couples. We met once a month and rotated hosting duties. About a year in, someone did a blind tasting of cabernets which included a $3 bottle of Barefoot Cab at the low end and a $50 bottle of Silver Oak at the top. (These prices will give you some idea how long ago this was.) Every single one of us rated the Barefoot first or second, and the Silver Oak dead last.
Fast forward a few years and I was looking for a gift to give me parents for their 50th wedding anniversary. They are really in to coffee so I decided to buy them an espresso machine. You can spend a truly ridiculous amount of money on one of those do I decided to do some taste testing to try to find the point of diminishing returns. We ha a $1500 machine at our office and so I decided to use that as a baseline. I enlisted the help of some local coffee snobs for guidance and they instructed me where to get the "proper" beans, which I dutifully sought out. After several hours and many, many attempts, no one was able to produce a cup that any of us considered even remotely drinkable. I ended up getting my parents a Keurig.
On the other hand, whenever I'm in Italy, the coffee there is consistently superior to anything I get anywhere else in the world. I have no idea how they do it, but the Italians obviously know something that the rest of us don't.
I don't remember what it was called, and apparently it isn't made any more. It was a low-end model without any fancy features. I got one for my wife and me as well, but my daily brew comes from one of these:
I had the k-slim or whatever not too long ago but gave it away when I moved. It has a reservoir for multiple servings and makes manageable coffee. I really loved it so I figured I’d get it again but accidentally got the slim without a reservoir.
So then I was making a cup of coffee and having to fill the water before every use. Nothing has upset me more than having to fill the water before every cup of coffee.
I know it sounds incredibly stupid but I think this article puts it into words better than I could. I don’t want /good/ coffee, I just want coffee that’ll get the hell out of my way so I can focus on other things.
I ended up getting a ninja coffee machine which can make drip coffee and k-cup coffee, and it has a giant water reservoir. Probably the best investment ever. I think it cost only slightly more than that first k-slim machine I had.
I’ll probably get an aeropress so I can get extra fancy on occasion and maybe roast my own coffee beans eventually because I’ve heard it makes a giant difference.
But really 99% of my coffee consumption is around “ok” coffee from my ninja machine thing. A lot of the time I don’t even know what flavor cup I used, or care.
But there’s nothing more comforting than running into a problem at work, getting a cup of coffee while I think about the problem in my head, and sitting down at my desk to start on my work as I take my first sip.
In my opinion, it's really about whether or not one wants to pay particular attention to it or not, and that applies to coffee and other things.
If I want to sit down and enjoy a nice cup of coffee at the coffee shop, then of course I'll want something that's a bit more interesting than Maxwell House. But if it's a weekday and I'm just looking for something to drink with my breakfast before a Zoom meeting with Germany at some ungodly hour on the west coast, then just about anything that's dark and coffee-like will do.
It's the same thing with food, going to a fancy restaurant is about the food and experience itself, while going to Taco Bell is about satiating hunger in a perfectly acceptable way.
> Good grief. If you enjoy it then by definition it is not bad, it is good, even if it didn't cost you an arm and a leg and you got it at the grocery store or the diner.
I consider myself a slight coffee snob. I regularly browse /r/coffee, /r/espresso and /r/pourover, and also enjoy YouTube videos from well-known coffee snobs such as James Hoffmann.
Basically every opinion I have encountered in any of those channels concurs with your statement that it's about what you enjoy, and not how much it cost or where it came from. If anyone feels judged by coffee snobs (or wine snobs, or whatever) for their tastes, I suspect that comes more from a place of insecurity than actual experience of being judged.
growing fruits is a wildly complex process, fermentations are an Astoundingly complex process, barrel aging is a surprisingly complex process. myriad things in each step can and do go very wrong. experts are absolutely able to taste fruit defects and fermentation defects.
just because you can't doesn't mean the differences aren't there and throws away a massive tradition of expertise and artistic direction, and is wildly arrogant. obviously, drink what you enjoy. most folks enjoy barefoot and folgers alike. though they are both commodity wine/coffee that are meant to appeal to "mass market".
the counter-point is that everybody uses the "taste is subjective" as a bludgeon for there being not quantifiable difference in quality between offerings.
There are lots of "objectively better" cases, you just have to fix what you want to measure. If you dislike bitter, then some coffees will be "objectively less bitter".
Or Kraft Mac and cheese vs pricy one: one uses "objectively better quality ingredients", one tastes "objectively closer to your childhood". Or dark roasted coffee that is basically burnt is "objectively worse" than non-burnt at being coffee, but might be "objectively better" at being a roasted-tasting beverage.
This is a disagreement over the meaning of "objectively better". To my way of thinking, "objectively better" is something that can be considered to be better without reference to anyone's personal preferences. Sugar is objectively better than arsenic. If you prefer arsenic to sugar there is really something wrong with you. Beyond that there are very few examples of things that are objectively better in the realm of things that humans consume.
I really wish this idea of "bad" vs "good" when it comes to taste and flavor profiles would die. Each different coffee brewing process has an end-product that is different. If you like it, and can taste the difference, knock yourself out investing in consistent grinders and espresso machines that are able to maintain the same brew temperature through a pour. Don't - go for your Maxwell or instant coffee or whatever.
the worst coffee ive ever had in my entire life was from a starbucks drive thru. before i took a sip, the cup just smelled like a very specific mixture of xylene and sewage. i was extremely curious if it tasted as bad as it smelled and it did. 1 sip and poured it out the window; it was so eerily close to tasting like paint thinner that it made me wonder if thats what it actually was.
sweetmarias.com check out their nostalgia popper. roast your own, it's always fresh. green coffee is ridiculously cheap.
if you don't want to work for it, some subscriptions from your favorite local roaster can be a good deal, especially if you get large bags (2lbs or 5lbs), divide into batches and freeze.
find a good blend from a good roaster. Southern Weather from Onyx Coffee Labs is one of my favorite "daily driver" coffees. Get a 5lb bag, split into 5 or 7 batches, through all but one in the freezer and take them out as needed. subscribe for 1 bag every 2 months or whatever.
~~not if you buy larger bags, which is what I suggested.~~ edit, they must have raised their prices since i last checked. i thought southern weather was around 15/lb bulk.
onyx is also one of the most cost transparent roasters out there.
Of course the article is less about good coffee or bad coffee but about how coffee is intertwined with our lives and our culture (at least, American culture). For example, the author mentioned Perkins and I knew exactly what he was talking about. The stories about his stepdad Ted were touching as well.
Two memorable coffee experiences come to my mind.
One was a dinner I had with the late John Vlissides (probably known to some HN denizens as one of the Gang of Four design patterns folks) at a basement Indian restaurant in San Francisco. The meal was excellent, and for some reason we had coffee afterward instead of the usual masala chai. The coffee was far from bad, in fact it was quite good, so we asked about it. The waiter came back with the answer. It was not Peet's, not Graffeo, not some gourmet roaster I had never of. It was Hills Brothers. Hills Brothers was (I guess still is) an old school coffee roaster founded in San Francisco in 1900.
Soon after, I went to the grocery store and bought a can of Hills Brothers coffee and brewed a pot. It was disappointing. Not nearly as good as the coffee we had that night in the restaurant. It could be that Hills Brothers delivered different coffee to bulk buyers such as restaurants as opposed to the retail market. Or the difference could have been my dining companions.
Another coffee memory is hauling my late parents' 50+ year old Pyrex glass percolator out of the closet and brewing a pot. I remember when I was a kid, watching the clear water start to boil, and droplets of coffee falling from the grounds basket into the water, turning it first reddish brown, then darker brown, and then finally black. There is something mesmerizing about watching coffee percolate this way. After it was done I had a cup. It tasted kind of burnt, but at the same time kind of thin and weak. Not terrible, but not really very good. I don't think I made it incorrectly; I think this is how coffee always was for my parents. Hm, that was a while ago. It's about time to haul out the percolator again.
Huh, I might try this. The previous time I bought drip grind and used an automatic drip maker. They don’t seem to specify the grind anymore. I suppose I could buy whole beans and grind them myself, but that would seem to be a bit contrary to the spirit of this discussion.
I love good coffee but it’s only worth so much money. Oak Cliff Roasters here in Dallas is, by far, my favorite coffee but it’s just gotten so expensive (about $20 for 3/4 lb). I don’t care how good something tastes once it crosses a value threshold in my head i can’t bring myself to buy it. So I just stick to what I find at the grocery store at 1/2 the price. It’s good enough and I don’t feel like a fool buying it.
After the first sentence I thought you were talking about fancier coffee - like buying freshly roasted specialty beans instead of coffee from the supermarket - turns out that you were talking about Starbucks.
Anyway, the specialty beans are worth paying extra for imo.
I don't care much for coffee, but I do indulge in luxury bread and butter.
Any local sourdough and Kerrygold butter is a good start. It's not thr best or anything, but it's very nice if you've never tried fancy bread and butter.
In mediterranean countries, "luxury" coffee and bread are sold over the counter at affordable prices. Try charging more than €1 for a coffee in Spain or Italy and you will quickly lose customers. Or more than €1 for any type of bread
However in the UK, buying "luxury" bread is always >£2
The prices are nonsense; it costs exactly the same to make one type of bread as it does another. The same goes for coffee. Production costs may vary by one or two cents and are completely automated
I like bad coffee but for different reasons (and to only up to a point): I enjoy the contrast it brings to the beans I roast myself. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth the effort or if I'm any good at it but then I try some "bad" coffee and my faith is renewed.
I have, however, gone too far in the past: I once roasted some Robusta beans just to see what they're like (some cheaper coffees are a blend of Robusta with superior Arabica beans). It was remarkably vile, even fresh: it was as though there was tire-fire in my mouth and the after-taste lingered for far too long.
I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but I've never had a cup of coffee I didn't like. There have been some pretty terrible tasting ones. I drank them anyway. All in all, pretty good beverage.
They might have strongly disliked something specific about the flavor of the coffee (e.g., too bitter or sour, to the point of being justifiably called terrible), but they didn't hate it overall and would still drink it given that same opportunity. That's how it usually is.
I’m similar, but I would describe it as “I’ve never had a cup of coffee I could distinguish from any other cup of coffee.”
They all taste more or less the same to me. Maybe there are minor differences but if I’m not intentionally trying one cup right after a different one, I’m not going to notice. It all tastes like “coffee” to me. (I drink it hot and black. I can’t stand the taste of any coffee if it’s just warm.)
As someone who really enjoys coffee, this is wild seeming to me. Have you sought out "different" coffees, or just don't naturally encounter them? For example, have you ever had any light roasted coffee? Or naturally processed? My first time having either of those I was shocked how unlike anything associated with coffee they were. Admittedly I didn't like either on the first try, but they were definitely VERY different from standard dark roast offerings.
My wife generally buys the coffee, sometimes it’s Peet’s something or other roast, sometimes Starbucks breakfast blend, sometimes ground and sometimes whole bean (we have a grinder but are often too lazy to use it.) When I buy it it’s usually Folgers. I also get coffee at McDonald’s, Starbucks, gas stations, hotels, etc. None of these are really distinguishable to me.
My friend made pour over coffee once, I don’t remember it tasting any different at all.
I can tell if someone made it “strong” or not, mostly because if it’s really strong I feel jittery and over-caffeinated after. It does taste “stronger” too, but not so much different as just less watery vs more watery.
Ah, then I'm following. I would generally agree with you! Despite the labeling differences, I think almost all of those are going to be roasted to the point where that's all you can taste (rather than the bean). In a sense, the processing for all those offerings is basically "how can we make everything taste extremely predictable and uniform?". Most of the difference will be hot/cold, watery/concentrated.
If you're interested, I'm 100% positive you'd be surprised at how many different flavors are available in coffee. I'd second the recommendation of qbasic_forever above. It can make a fun date with the wife, or if you have a locally available coffee subscription that can be a fun way to see some variety at home. Funky fermented flavors, maybe juicy acidity - I promise there are coffees that would be unrecognizable as coffee.
All that said, you might not like any of them. If what you're drawn to is the roasty flavors and bitterness then you'll lose some of that in exchange. All that to say, I'm 100% certain you'd be surprised by the variety of flavors if you were to pursue it, but there's no reason to if you're happy with what you've got. It only gets more expensive and less accessible...
Find a good coffee shop and try some different pour over brews. Ask if they have some natural (or dry) process beans and I bet you'll get a cup of coffee like you haven't really tasted before. Natural process beans are super fruity and almost taste like a tea. Also ask if they have some good robusta beans and try that too, again it might be familiar but much different than what you've had before (robusta is what Folgers and cheap coffee typically use, but it can be quite good when done well).
But yeah I do agree if you're getting arabica beans from standard places that may or may not care about how they're roasted, keeping them fresh, etc. it all does start to blend together in taste.
I mean, I hear what you and others are saying in the responses. I’m sure there’s coffees out there that, if I tried them, I’d admit were different, and likely better, than what I’m having now.
But I’d be worse off overall in that world, because then I’d go from enjoying cheap coffee, to hating cheap coffee and only enjoying “good” (read: expensive and/or time consuming) coffee. Folks would say “try this coffee, you’ll never go back to Folgers”, and you know what? They may be right! But why would I be better off? I’m already happy. I already enjoy my coffee.
Always trying to pursue finer and finer things leads you to a hedonic treadmill that’s hard to escape. It’s a trite and cliche Sheryl Crow lyric, but it’s absolutely true: It’s not getting what you want, it’s wanting what you got.
I still like cheap coffee--my go-to morning brew is pre-ground Folgers because it's so cheap and I drink a lot in the morning. It's just like beer IMHO, just because you've tried and like certain types or brands doesn't ruin everything else. It just increases my appreciation for when I do find or want something a little more special.
Yep, same here. My favourite coffee shop does a great pour-over and an even better oat milk flat white. But it's far away, and most of the time I either drink supermarket dark roast filter coffee out of the machine at the office, or super cheap coffee from McDonald's or Gregg's. I can taste the difference, but I still enjoy both ends of the spectrum.
Amusingly, the only coffee I have ever actively disliked was a cold brew from aforementioned coffee shop. I think I'm just not cut out for drinking cold brew - it just tasted weak and acidic, even compared to a light roasted pour-over.
Ever tried a cup of Folgers decaf? I'm pretty similar, in that I don't think I've met very many cups of coffee that I wouldn't drii, but that stuff is horrible.
Years ago I visited a customer at his house; the place was a complete mess (I am not a tidy person, and it was a mess even by my standards). He asked if I wanted some coffee. "Sure". He ended up serving it in a soup bowl, as "it's the only thing that's clean". I felt it was a fairly liberal interpretation of "clean". I ended up chucking it in the flower pot (very cliché). I think that's the only "cup" I didn't end up drinking.
Nice guy other than that though; spent quite some time chatting about various things.
Vending machine coffee has always been terrible in my experience. Although there is (or at least was for a time) some Starbucks developed machine that made a perfectly fine cup of coffee but IIRC it was obscenely expensive and meant more for workplaces or small stores.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 366 ms ] threadUltimately I think fancy coffee is the same as fancy beer - it's not about the quality of taste of the thing, but rather it's about tribal membership and signaling. Among certain groups of people, caring deeply about 1% gains in taste value from small changes in coffee preparation or hop blends is a chance to prove your worthiness to the in-group.
The fact that so many can honestly profess that these tiny gains in subjective taste experience are Very Serious Business is a testament to humans' ability to convince ourselves of just about anything.
Apparently they're called Moka Pots, never knew that.
What appealed to me about the moka pot at the time was the reeeeeally "strong" coffee flavor. As I've moved away from it, I think my palate was just geared towards really dark roasts - very little the bean brings to the table at that point.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDLoIvb0w4
[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=u-PeYeiqPLU
On electric (resistive) stoves the behaviour may be different.
Such a great tool...
Or in other words, the way to make something espresso-like when all you have is a heat source.
(There's a lot of range in what one person might call fairly good compared to the next, too, of course.)
Two weeks ago I paid $9 for a pound of whole bean coffee from a good local roaster. That may be a bit below average but $11/lb is easy to find if your not living in a high-dollar, high-status coastal city.
Something costing 30-50% different in another country is kinda what I'd expect, the double or triple stuff I think would more be fancy people being extra-fancy.
On the other hand, those in coffee culture are always talking about beans to buy, why their coffee tastes messed up this month, how to fix their machines, how to adjust their grind to the latest roast they are trying (every roast needs a different grind).
They're more vocal because there is a lot more to discuss.
Also because they deeply care about coffee and do not take it as a commodity.
That said, as with craft beer I think it's very often not about the objective quality (if there is such a thing) so much as it is the novelty. I'm guessing the people you portray negatively are more interested in the fads and trends and always chasing something new than enjoying what's in front of them. The perk of that is funding a broader assortment of offerings, the downside is as you mentioned that it can bring elitism and gate keeping.
I think your "tiny gains in subjective taste experience" is glossing over very real and dramatically different flavors (like a sour beer vs. a hoppy beer).
There continues to always be a relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/915/
However, my default coffee option at home is a simple cafetière (aka French press) and a kettle. I don't do much else other than, if I'm paying attention, waiting a minute or two too let the water of the boil. Nearly always, I'm as happy with this as I am with the fanciest barista coffee.
Also, it is interesting how much the taste and experience varies even with the same machine/method and same coffee. Sometimes it'll be amazing; sometimes, what is probably objectively the same thing just falls flat. I assume it's connected strongly to mood as well as whatever else I have eaten recently, ambience, expectations and so on. I can't think of another food or drink with the same variation between experiences, except perhaps alcohol, which I don't use often enough to make the same claim.
When you get wildly different results from the same beans it likely means you've changed one of those variables. Try playing around to find a good balance of grind size and time brewed. I usually like a kosher-salt level of grind size (moderately coarse) with a 4 minute or so brew time. But if the coffee comes out too bitter then I likely over-extracted it and increase the grind size or reduce the time brewing, and if too sour then it's probably under extracted (decrease grind or brew longer next time).
I love coffee, but don't differentiate it nearly as much. I can enjoy a fancy expresso just as much as a cup of supermarket coffee.
I really really disagree, and I don't think it's an issue of being stuck inside the tribe, because I use all the same equipment, don't really give a shit (though think I should) about adjusting grind size or anything, have never timed a pour, and buying emergency supermarket/Illy coffee vs. my 'hipster' subscription is scrunch-my-face-up vs. mm-coffee.
I can drink Illy, I don't enjoy it but I can drink it.
I was recently subjected to parent-company-corporate-meeting-room push-a-button-to-pump-it-out-don't-even-know-how-they-made-it-probably-filter coffee, that I could not drink.
But who am I performing to by (not) doing so? When I do drink the coffee I like I'm remote working from home alone.
A former colleague's favourite 'coffee' is instant decaf. I believe him. I really disagree. I don't even really agree it counts as coffee. But that's his preference, people are different. Some are only happy with nice/fresh beans (my own suspicion is that it's more the freshness that counts than anything else, that supermarkets should just sell it like fruit & veg, and then they're laughing, no need to buy 'hipster'), others with anything.
Relatedly, there are days where I don't drink it at all, that I just get too distracted and I decide by that point what's the point, I'm awake, it's mid-afternoon, why drink coffee now. So it's not a case of needing a certain fix, and really I should just stop ever buying 'emergency' coffee that I don't actually like, and intentionally go without.
Well, hmmm, it would only take a few minutes to learn. Frankly I think your post is signalling (on a meta level). I know it probably doesn't feel like it, but that's what signalling usually feels like from the inside (it doesn't feel like you're doing it).
On the object-level, I think there are huge differences in quality when it comes to... most anything, including coffee, beer, chocolate, you name it. I don't think it's usually about "1%" gains.
Given most people drink coffee on their own at home with remote WFH standardized, who exactly are we signaling to?
Were caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol not pleasantly mind altering and addictive, I highly doubt many people consuming them, regardless of minor adjustments in their preparation.
That said I’m firmly of the opinion that french press, and moka make the best coffee for my taste.
The correct technique is the technique that consistently makes you the coffee you like.
> Ultimately I think fancy coffee is the same as fancy beer - it's not about the quality of taste of the thing, but rather it's about tribal membership and signaling.
Most people aren't usually looking for novelty in their daily coffee, which is why they are often loyal to a particular coffee shop or method of preparation. This is true whether its Folgers instant coffee or shade grown Ethiopian.
If one is a daily beer drinker, then sure, the very experimental and unique flavored ones can be too much. But for me, beer isn't a daily beverage. It's a weekend or special occasion thing, like a cocktail, and for that, I'd rather have a more unique flavor.
This is how I do it too. I highly recommend trying out a V60 (which is only $9.20) and trying the techniques in this video :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4ynXzkSQo
You may find your coffee suddenly tasting significantly better
I won't turn up my nose at diner coffee but you don't have to be a snob to notice a huge difference. Besides I have bonded over flat whites before :(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol
I used to occasionally get starbucks on the way to work but the line ups at the drive through have made 'fast' food not fast, and the price of starbucks coffee seems to have risen so high it wasn't hard to stop doing it.
I've had maxwell house instant, its not great, but its also not sour or acidic, so its just drinkable. Nescafe instant is fine too.
Luckily, for me, my definition also coincides with the overpriced coffee.
In short: my version of bad coffee is burnt, over roasted stuff. Like Starbucks.
I'd rather have Maxwell House. Which thankfully for me is also cheap.
I wish I could justify drinking nothing but blue mountain but that has to be reserved for when people I know go to jamaica and get some because the prices have reached insanity levels here - $50-100/lb.
Instant coffee is much closer to that peculiar American burnt drip coffee horror which is what Americans seemed to used to expect out of coffee. I think it should be termed "american coffee" just so we know what you're talking about.
Strangely, despite Starbucks using espresso machines, they managed to almost perfectly capture that burnt, watery horror which I assume is why people go there for sugar laden, syrup filled concoctions rather than just decent coffee.
Although far worse than the drip coffee is that also peculiar american invention called "coffee creamer". It's a shameful product.
I think you seem to have an obsession with imaginary american stuff rather than a discussion of what preferences you have. What about a good coffee do you think makes it good? What makes it taste bad? What do you mean by burned - do you dislike dark roasts? How do you feel about sour notes, or acidic notes, or fruity notes, etc etc.
That's the real question, not whether its american or not. I have a tough time drinking african coffees because most are too sour tasting for me. Meanwhile I poured a friend a very expensive cup of jamaican blue mountain and they said it tasted 'too plain' for them.
It's all about preferences, not snobbery about american this or american that. I don't like espresso, and never have. I don't care at all what the rest of the world enjoys, nor can I summarize 'this espresso tastes like what the rest of the world enjoys' because there are many many coffees and all of them are different enough that not everyone enjoys them all, and even if the whole world enjoyed something else that doesn't define what I enjoy nor will it ever do that.
Even when I started making way more money I've stuck with the can of ground coffee.
The reason is cause most days I just down the cup really quickly, black. Or with a little cream.
I don't savor it. To me, coffee is a utility. Not a lifestyle.
I just need a couple of cups to stay awake and do my job.
But after that I don't touch it for the rest of the day. Not if I want to fall asleep at a reasonable time anyways.
Every now and then I will pay for an expensive gourmet coffee but that's not the norm.
I kept up the caffeine pill habit after I stopped doing those rides (social life after work made going to bed at 8:30 a little untenable), but ran out and switched back to coffee. Coffee really gives you some extras that mere caffeine doesn't, I just feel a little "warmer" after a good cup of coffee. Also, all those papers you read about coffee being good for you are coffee, not necessarily caffeine. So if you want those benefits, I recommend the actual thing.
I have some friends who drink energy drinks just for the caffeine ("I hate the taste") and to that demographic I recommend caffeine pills wholeheartedly. If you don't like the taste of caffeinated beverages, don't drink them.
Spoiler alert: it is not really about the coffee.
Developing a taste for good coffee (or wine, etc) doesn't seem attractive to me. You end up needing more and more equipment. You need expensive high quality beans. It's typically messy, time consuming, takes up valuable kitchen space and expensive. I'd rather something ok, which is quick, cheap and convenient.
It’s coffee for people who don’t like flavor. “A taste without creamer or sugar has an initial bitterness that immediately becomes smooth and gentle. With sugar and milk, it is the mildest coffee you may ever taste. In fact, the coffee is specially processed in order to remove any bitterness yet still keep the flavor of a fine European coffee.”
It's like when I tried on some audiophile headphones and discovered that they sounded the same as my $20 cheap ones. Saved myself months of "research" and hundreds of dollars, and marketing/ads bounce right off me.
There is a cappuccino chocolate milk in my local 7-11 (asia) that is about 50 cent. When I walked pass someone who drank it, i was accidentally breathing smell from their exhalation and surprised its smell is so good.
I feel fresh coffee beans is as good as ok-ish product in different way (excluding healthy ingredient aspect).
It was actually a local radio station (WERS Boston) that got me into a similarly local coffee roaster (Atomic Coffee). I got a bag of their coffee with a donation to the station, and I was hooked. Enough so that I now take friends to their cafe to hang out, and work with them to cater the coffee for an event I help run every year.
What's more, a number of my coworkers are coffee drinkers - sometimes, we'll bring in coffee to share; sometimes, we'll discuss the merits and demerits of such-and-such single origin blend; sometimes, there will be holy wars about the use of a moka pot versus a Chemex, or whole-bean with a burr grinder versus pre-ground. But all in good fun.
As for coffee, like many other parts of life (movies, food, and music especially), I find that I like it very good or very bad—as long as it’s not down the middle, I can find a time/place to enjoy it.
I have a fairly expensive Rocket Espresso machine, I’ve learned some latte art. I have every coffee making contraption out there. And I enjoy all of it, at times.
When I’m in a hurry I’ll make instant or go to a gas station. Totally fine and the gas station coffee is kind of a favorite of mine for long trips in the car.
What I almost never do is buy Starbucks because to me, it feels like that middle-of-the-road experience. I’m not making a statement about the company or the culture or anything like that. It just feels like going to Applebees or something (yes you’re out to eat, but shouldn’t you just go somewhere nice or, on the other hand, somewhere cheaper/faster where you don’t have to tip?). It’s too acidic and too expensive for what it is. I’d rather pay for something nicer or go cheap.
And in the process they've wiped out most independent coffee shops.
Also, what's up Rocket buddy :D
1. espresso drinks
2. order one shot extra (starbucks will only put 1 shot of espresso in an 12oz tall--so you should order AT LEAST one extra shot).
3. ask for blonde roast, which is actually not half bad. pike place/standard is a disaster.
it will not parallel any craft coffee shop, but this actually makes for drinkable coffee, which is convenient since there are starbucks literally everywhere.
How? I hope it's not like in Requiem for a Dream with the old lady.
Cafe latte, tall, non-fat milk, one splenda. (This is fairly zero calorie.)
A stronger option is: Cafe latte, tall, an extra shot of espresso, non-fat milk, two splendas.
Ask for it to be made with Reserve beans.
Gas station coffee is a Rite. I am not a maniac, I use a burr grinder for locally & lightly roasted beans, and a v60. With an electric kettle that's about a five minute process, $1.30/300ml.
On the other hand, nothing beats an early morning pop-in to the 7/11, couple 24oz "Regular Roast" cups, slide the cardboard sleeves on, fit the lids, pack of non filtered Camels, and, as you say, a long trip in the car.
I agree, but I think it's slightly more! The author doesn't like coffee, they understand the intimate knowledge of every aspect. And in doing so, they come to appreciate the interesting parts of the worst entries in the field. And the experiences those entries mean.
To give another data point, I really like pocket knives. I've been collecting them for nearly twenty years. I have some very expensive ones. My daily carries are usually around $200 or so. I seldom use them, however, and never heavily. And I often trade them away for other people's pocket knives. I love those $40 beaters that have seen a life of real and heavy use.
Those knives exist in a state of their own, just like bad coffee: they weren't created to be perfect, and nobody involved took as much care as they should. But the flaws make the end result more-valuable, in an important way."Wabi-sabi" might truly be the meaning of existence.
I can totally relate to the what the author is saying. I went through a mini-version of the same journey.
For a while I was buying expensive beans, grinding them on a Baratza Vario (a mid-level grinder) to make espresso in my E-61 based heat exchanger machine. I made some excellent coffee with that setup and more than a few sink-shots.
I gave it up though because I found that the better I got at making coffee, the less I enjoyed it in general. I couldn’t enjoy a mug of diner coffee. I couldn’t drink the stuff they give you on an airplane or at a donut shop. I couldn’t deal with k-cups that work provided so I brought in a kettle and aeropress.
I’m better these days. Like the writer, I’m now able to enjoy just about any coffee I can get my hands on (although IHOP coffee still seems impossibly watery).
It turns out that over the course of the pandemic I've really refined what I actually like in coffee (for myself, not trying to say it's generally better) and basically nowhere serves it. Now I'm in a pickle - I absolutely love love love the coffee I get to have every morning when I wake up, and I don't generally enjoy the bulk of the coffee that's available in the world at large.
Before I enjoyed coffee so much I was able to enjoy coffee much more broadly.
I had two life experiences that beat the culinary snobbery out of me. Many years ago I was a tea-totaller but I decided I wanted to develop a taste for wine (because social pressure) so I started a wine tasting group. It consisted of six couples. We met once a month and rotated hosting duties. About a year in, someone did a blind tasting of cabernets which included a $3 bottle of Barefoot Cab at the low end and a $50 bottle of Silver Oak at the top. (These prices will give you some idea how long ago this was.) Every single one of us rated the Barefoot first or second, and the Silver Oak dead last.
Fast forward a few years and I was looking for a gift to give me parents for their 50th wedding anniversary. They are really in to coffee so I decided to buy them an espresso machine. You can spend a truly ridiculous amount of money on one of those do I decided to do some taste testing to try to find the point of diminishing returns. We ha a $1500 machine at our office and so I decided to use that as a baseline. I enlisted the help of some local coffee snobs for guidance and they instructed me where to get the "proper" beans, which I dutifully sought out. After several hours and many, many attempts, no one was able to produce a cup that any of us considered even remotely drinkable. I ended up getting my parents a Keurig.
On the other hand, whenever I'm in Italy, the coffee there is consistently superior to anything I get anywhere else in the world. I have no idea how they do it, but the Italians obviously know something that the rest of us don't.
https://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-DCC-450BK-Coffeemaker-Stain...
I like Seattle's Best Post Alley blend or Starbucks Cafe Verona. But I drank Folgers at work for years and was perfectly happy with it.
So then I was making a cup of coffee and having to fill the water before every use. Nothing has upset me more than having to fill the water before every cup of coffee.
I know it sounds incredibly stupid but I think this article puts it into words better than I could. I don’t want /good/ coffee, I just want coffee that’ll get the hell out of my way so I can focus on other things.
I ended up getting a ninja coffee machine which can make drip coffee and k-cup coffee, and it has a giant water reservoir. Probably the best investment ever. I think it cost only slightly more than that first k-slim machine I had.
I’ll probably get an aeropress so I can get extra fancy on occasion and maybe roast my own coffee beans eventually because I’ve heard it makes a giant difference.
But really 99% of my coffee consumption is around “ok” coffee from my ninja machine thing. A lot of the time I don’t even know what flavor cup I used, or care.
But there’s nothing more comforting than running into a problem at work, getting a cup of coffee while I think about the problem in my head, and sitting down at my desk to start on my work as I take my first sip.
If I want to sit down and enjoy a nice cup of coffee at the coffee shop, then of course I'll want something that's a bit more interesting than Maxwell House. But if it's a weekday and I'm just looking for something to drink with my breakfast before a Zoom meeting with Germany at some ungodly hour on the west coast, then just about anything that's dark and coffee-like will do.
It's the same thing with food, going to a fancy restaurant is about the food and experience itself, while going to Taco Bell is about satiating hunger in a perfectly acceptable way.
I consider myself a slight coffee snob. I regularly browse /r/coffee, /r/espresso and /r/pourover, and also enjoy YouTube videos from well-known coffee snobs such as James Hoffmann.
Basically every opinion I have encountered in any of those channels concurs with your statement that it's about what you enjoy, and not how much it cost or where it came from. If anyone feels judged by coffee snobs (or wine snobs, or whatever) for their tastes, I suspect that comes more from a place of insecurity than actual experience of being judged.
just because you can't doesn't mean the differences aren't there and throws away a massive tradition of expertise and artistic direction, and is wildly arrogant. obviously, drink what you enjoy. most folks enjoy barefoot and folgers alike. though they are both commodity wine/coffee that are meant to appeal to "mass market".
But that's the point: we could tell the difference. We just all preferred the Barefoot when we didn't know what we were drinking.
Nowadays my tastes have evolved beyond Barefoot. But there isn't anything wrong with you if you just happen not to like Chateau Petrus.
the counter-point is that everybody uses the "taste is subjective" as a bludgeon for there being not quantifiable difference in quality between offerings.
This is a disagreement over the meaning of "objectively better". To my way of thinking, "objectively better" is something that can be considered to be better without reference to anyone's personal preferences. Sugar is objectively better than arsenic. If you prefer arsenic to sugar there is really something wrong with you. Beyond that there are very few examples of things that are objectively better in the realm of things that humans consume.
it's kind of interesting how BAD coffee can be. out of curiosity i googled to see if there has ever been a contest to see who can make the worst coffee and it turns out that's a thing. https://sprudge.com/the-horrible-true-story-of-the-worlds-wo...
if you don't want to work for it, some subscriptions from your favorite local roaster can be a good deal, especially if you get large bags (2lbs or 5lbs), divide into batches and freeze.
find a good blend from a good roaster. Southern Weather from Onyx Coffee Labs is one of my favorite "daily driver" coffees. Get a 5lb bag, split into 5 or 7 batches, through all but one in the freezer and take them out as needed. subscribe for 1 bag every 2 months or whatever.
onyx is also one of the most cost transparent roasters out there.
Two memorable coffee experiences come to my mind.
One was a dinner I had with the late John Vlissides (probably known to some HN denizens as one of the Gang of Four design patterns folks) at a basement Indian restaurant in San Francisco. The meal was excellent, and for some reason we had coffee afterward instead of the usual masala chai. The coffee was far from bad, in fact it was quite good, so we asked about it. The waiter came back with the answer. It was not Peet's, not Graffeo, not some gourmet roaster I had never of. It was Hills Brothers. Hills Brothers was (I guess still is) an old school coffee roaster founded in San Francisco in 1900.
Soon after, I went to the grocery store and bought a can of Hills Brothers coffee and brewed a pot. It was disappointing. Not nearly as good as the coffee we had that night in the restaurant. It could be that Hills Brothers delivered different coffee to bulk buyers such as restaurants as opposed to the retail market. Or the difference could have been my dining companions.
Another coffee memory is hauling my late parents' 50+ year old Pyrex glass percolator out of the closet and brewing a pot. I remember when I was a kid, watching the clear water start to boil, and droplets of coffee falling from the grounds basket into the water, turning it first reddish brown, then darker brown, and then finally black. There is something mesmerizing about watching coffee percolate this way. After it was done I had a cup. It tasted kind of burnt, but at the same time kind of thin and weak. Not terrible, but not really very good. I don't think I made it incorrectly; I think this is how coffee always was for my parents. Hm, that was a while ago. It's about time to haul out the percolator again.
That said, the best coffee I've had is always with friends.
Starbuck's prices are insane, and most of what they push isn't even coffee.
Anyway, the specialty beans are worth paying extra for imo.
Any local sourdough and Kerrygold butter is a good start. It's not thr best or anything, but it's very nice if you've never tried fancy bread and butter.
In mediterranean countries, "luxury" coffee and bread are sold over the counter at affordable prices. Try charging more than €1 for a coffee in Spain or Italy and you will quickly lose customers. Or more than €1 for any type of bread
However in the UK, buying "luxury" bread is always >£2
The prices are nonsense; it costs exactly the same to make one type of bread as it does another. The same goes for coffee. Production costs may vary by one or two cents and are completely automated
It's just a fashion
I have, however, gone too far in the past: I once roasted some Robusta beans just to see what they're like (some cheaper coffees are a blend of Robusta with superior Arabica beans). It was remarkably vile, even fresh: it was as though there was tire-fire in my mouth and the after-taste lingered for far too long.
I don't understand. How are these not directly conflicting statements?
Smoking, a bad partner, bitter coffee.
Also, it was probably written that way as a bit of a joke.
I feel pretty much the same way about coffee.
They all taste more or less the same to me. Maybe there are minor differences but if I’m not intentionally trying one cup right after a different one, I’m not going to notice. It all tastes like “coffee” to me. (I drink it hot and black. I can’t stand the taste of any coffee if it’s just warm.)
My friend made pour over coffee once, I don’t remember it tasting any different at all.
I can tell if someone made it “strong” or not, mostly because if it’s really strong I feel jittery and over-caffeinated after. It does taste “stronger” too, but not so much different as just less watery vs more watery.
If you're interested, I'm 100% positive you'd be surprised at how many different flavors are available in coffee. I'd second the recommendation of qbasic_forever above. It can make a fun date with the wife, or if you have a locally available coffee subscription that can be a fun way to see some variety at home. Funky fermented flavors, maybe juicy acidity - I promise there are coffees that would be unrecognizable as coffee.
All that said, you might not like any of them. If what you're drawn to is the roasty flavors and bitterness then you'll lose some of that in exchange. All that to say, I'm 100% certain you'd be surprised by the variety of flavors if you were to pursue it, but there's no reason to if you're happy with what you've got. It only gets more expensive and less accessible...
But yeah I do agree if you're getting arabica beans from standard places that may or may not care about how they're roasted, keeping them fresh, etc. it all does start to blend together in taste.
But I’d be worse off overall in that world, because then I’d go from enjoying cheap coffee, to hating cheap coffee and only enjoying “good” (read: expensive and/or time consuming) coffee. Folks would say “try this coffee, you’ll never go back to Folgers”, and you know what? They may be right! But why would I be better off? I’m already happy. I already enjoy my coffee.
Always trying to pursue finer and finer things leads you to a hedonic treadmill that’s hard to escape. It’s a trite and cliche Sheryl Crow lyric, but it’s absolutely true: It’s not getting what you want, it’s wanting what you got.
Amusingly, the only coffee I have ever actively disliked was a cold brew from aforementioned coffee shop. I think I'm just not cut out for drinking cold brew - it just tasted weak and acidic, even compared to a light roasted pour-over.
Nice guy other than that though; spent quite some time chatting about various things.