Ask HN: Has YouTube peaked?

173 points by mouzogu ↗ HN
It feels like the majority of content is no longer organic or passion driven. It is now monetisation driven content.

It's similar to Google. It used to be index of useful organic information, created for practical reasons (regardless of Google). Now it is just an index of adverts and spam created for Google monetisation.

Even some famous tech review channels just seem like marketing/pr product shills to me now.

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I searched for a software tutorial on Youtube and 90% of results are talking heads.

184 comments

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It's really awful. The worst are those short vertical videos with a robot voice and dramatic music laid over a short clip from another video. It must be what a lobotomy feels like.
Tip for other people: Never ever click on such short (reel) when logged in. If you watch them, YouTube will push more down your throat. If you ignore them, they disappear from your suggestions.
Unless you decline tracking cookies or outright disable cookies, in which case YouTube will push even more crap content down your throat because I guess that's what the average person wants.
The shorts "shelf" as they call it has an X in the top right that hides them entirely.
YouTube is amazing. YouTube search is good but has some bad spots. Software is one of them, a lot of bad quality content. Luckily you can be creative with the filtering and sorting to cut out the low quality content by views
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Search has never been good, and the algorithm seem to prioritize things that make YouTube money, but it is still where all the good passion generated stuff goes if you can find it.
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I feel like this is just the way the Google-owned web is going at the moment. Every Google search is filled with e-commerce and ads. It's all just selling you stuff.
I don't think YouTube has peaked. It is as popular today as it as ever been. It's not surprising monetisation is more prevalent when channels grow. I remain impressed that among the staggering quantity of content there is plently to watch and find. I rarely watch the most popular tech channels.

The trend I dislike is 'shorts' which are encouraged by YouTube. An obvious nod to TikTok, which ironically now allows longer videos - a maximum of 10 minutes.

So to sum up: yes, there is lots of rubbish on YouTube (as to be expected), but there is also plenty of watchable content - whether it's silly, informative, education, music or a myriad of other types. Is it unhealthy to consume too much? I guess that's a question for a different discussion.

In absolute terms, there's no rubbish, but yes, it hasn't peaked. In relative terms, the rubbish is about the same. There are simply way more videos than ever before.
I'd say that the quality of the best content on YouTube is still fantastic, and those creators are often able to bring in more and more money, allowing even more improvements.

Looking at the sorts of channels represented by Standard, they're at the top of their game and doing better than ever. - https://standard.tv/

Yes there's a ton of crap too, but I think this is just a symptom of YouTube being truly mainstream now. There are areas that do better and worse on this. I'd agree that programming tutorials aren't good, but I've never found YouTube to be good for programming tutorials. Conference talks tend to be much better.

I wouldn't use the word "peaked". It may be hard to discover useful content; but if you know the channels that you are interested in, then youtube is fantastic compared to the alternatives (vimeo, odysee, rumble, peertube).
... assuming that these channels of interest are on Youtube and not on one of the other platform. I am using multiple platforms, just because the content is spread out now.
Especially since the removal of downvoting it's hard to get to good quality material. Majority of tech videos are a case of blind leading the blind and unless you know the subject already it's hard to spot.

Nowadays I start with a forum/reddit/discord/hn search for a list of hive approved creators and only then go to youtube with that list in hand. Starting the search in youtube (unless for a very niche/non-marketable topics) is close to worthless.

> Especially since the removal of downvoting

A wake-up call that a single company annihilated our ability to sort out information for ourselves. I'm still rather disturbed and shaken.

You're waking up a bit too late... It's not different than Facebook and their news feed sorted by the "algorithm", the same as Instagram, TikTok or Twitter (at least with Twitter you still can choose)...
Yes, this ship has sailed ever since search is not returning most relevant results but ordered by whatever they think would make me watch more...
> to sort out information for ourselves.

How can you sort something you know nothing about?

Downvotes, and their ratio to upvotes, were an important signal to get an idea of how good the video overall was.

That's their point.
You can still see the downvotes with a browser add-on. But yes, I'm also quite disturbed this by this absolutely idiotic decision.
Did that dislike button ever do anything? It made a number go up, but other than that I have never seen any effect of it. If you want to make bad channels go away, hit the three-dots next to the video on the recommendation side and click "Not Interested".
That sounds wonderful except that it works about as well as the voice on my Google assistant understanding anything beyond simplistic questions and answers. I’ve attempted to train YouTube repeatedly since the appearance of “not interested” that I’m not interested in violence. If I wanted this much violence, I could have gotten it for free. At least with Google assistant I can scream expletives and insults at the ai and get some satisfaction that the qa retrospective will be amusing for those stuck working there. I mean, does ai really deserve respect when it is so poorly designed?
The list of "not interested" is also limited to 100 entries. Once you've reached that limit the oldest entries get removed.

It's a pointless feature at this point if you ask me.

Are you logged in? I don't ever see violent videos on YouTube. It seems to suggest what I like to watch. If you aren't logged in, it will pickup on what other people in your household are watching.
It helped a lot with how to/tutorial videos. When looking for a solution I could see at first glance if I'm watching correct video. If there was more dislikes than likes I could tell straight away to not follow this suggestions.
> Majority of tech videos are a case of blind leading the blind and unless you know the subject already it's hard to spot.

It drives me CRAZY!

How often I want to know something about a product (something less popular than smartphones, let's say IP cameras) and I find only ~3 reviews, I watch them all and they are all full of BS, because the reviewer has no experience with the product type they are given, they just follow the manual/or some given instructions by the sponsor how to make the product work. So I still know nothing about the product, its pros and cons and I can spot mistakes and BS even in those basic info that was given. In this specific case of IP cameras for example there are TONS of videos NOT showing the real video feed (recordings) from the camera, they just record the smartphone screen with another smartphone/camera and that's it.

It's so frustrating, too.

I watch those videos to learn something new about the product (actual pros and cons, specific feature implementations, ...). But most of the time the "reviewer" basically reads the product description and goes over the list of features that I can find on literally any shop page that has that product.

It's so hard to find videos of people that have actually used the product for longer periods of time and can give an actual review.

This extends to review articles as well. 20 years ago there used to be magazines that reviewed products by actually using them. There were also users reviewing products and there were websites where these personal reviews were aggregated

Nowadays all review article just work off the specs without using and testing the products. And the user reviews have moved to Amazon, which are mostly very poor quality or just fakes, or possibly reviews for other products. In any case, there are no incentives to give high quality reviews of products, and google seems to have no incentive to show me the few remaining real review blogs.

For all its flaws, this is why I still check the Wirecutter before I buy a lot of things. Although they seem to make their picks in part based on what will get them affiliate revenue, you can be sure someone on the staff has actually picked up the product and used it enough to understand how well it works.

I've also found user reviews on Home Depot to be more helpful than most. I'm not sure what they're doing to combat spam, but it seems to be working.

Many reviews the reviewers don't have the product and instead cobble together information from the description and other sources, that's why there is no unique information in the reviews and they are so information light. They do this so that they can have affiliate links where they can make money, with a heavy understanding of SEO this can be a very profitable practice.

When I discovered this practice from a well known SEO guru, I was both sad and angry.

That's a difficult problem to solve and extends far beyond Youtube. The reason why that happens is just due to timing, first one to review a new product gets all the clicks. So they can't spend weeks actually using the product to write a proper review, as interest would have been largely faded at that point. Back in the paper magazine days they had much more time, as magazines only got released once a month.

Meanwhile if you ignore all the commercial Youtubers and look for regular people using the product, you might end up with a more 'authentic' review, but also with an equally uninformative one, as most people just don't have access to all the latest tech gadgets on the market. They just have the one they are reviewing right now, so it's hard to get any meaningful comparisons.

There are a couple of good review sites left, but not nearly enough to cover all the tech stuff that gets released in the wild.

>Especially since the removal of downvoting it's hard to get to good quality material.

This is it isnt it. When they removed downvoting I figured it didnt matter, but really youtube really got past its peak because of this.

Examples of forums that you search at?
Unfortunately all those downvotes on Biden’s videos on the White House channel right after his inauguration were effective.
There’s still the “don’t recommend channel” and “not interested” options to modify recommendations.
I disagree. YouTube content has never been better for me. There has been an explosion of specialized and niche videos and the recommendation algorithm really seems to be working for me.
I am curious, why was downvoting removed? It seems to have had a bad effect based on what you are saying.
The drive for monetization certainly shows in the form of needlessly, absurdly long videos. I recently came across a "How to Make the Windows 11 Taskbar Completely Transparent" tutorial (I had a whim to do just that). The whole content boils down to "install such-and-such app". Length of the video? 5:50 :) (And the narrator calls it a "real quick video" by the way, so apparently that passes for being rather brief).

YT, or even videos in general, don't have a monopoly for that though. Eg. in my country some Sundays are shopping, some are not. Every now and then I need to google it out to find out if the shops are open next Sunday, and inevitably at the top of search results will sit a 4 screens long blog post starting with an 'immersive' story to the tune of "Imagine you wake up on Sunday morning, and your fridge is empty. That's a bummer, huh?", followed by paragraphs and paragraphs of such fluff with the only information any sane person could care about buried somewhere near the end : )

There's a variety of youtube "creators" that I follow as I have the same interests or hobbies, okay, I'm an aviation nerd, and the videos from the same creators have over time morphed from ad-hoc, homemade, quicky explainers into very professional looking videos clearly put together by a team. And they are longer. And they are selling their merch. And they are all cross-promoting each other. And they are all advertising the same vpns.

And it's become so professional, so impersonal, that watching now feels much more like a chore

That's the problem. And it is said that internet has shortened our attention span - probably true. But the common wisdom is that it did so by being brief and to the point. But it's the opposite. Modern internet does that by drowning us in so much fluff (subscribe to our newsletter, or do you want to see our useless chatbot utterly fail to help you) that we've all developed our personal "skip intro" heuristics.

And we now have this knee-jerk reaction to aggressively cut through fluff even when there's actually no fluff.

Back in the day the list of shopping Sundays would be printed in my pocketbook calendar that I'd buy in early January. And it would be a simple list without all the "...shopping for goods is such an important part of life, you need to eat after all (sometimes too much, am I right!). But did you know that on some days..." BS. Because paper is an actual commodity, and no editor would publish a pocketbook calendar the size of a brick. Unlike paper though, kilobytes cost nothing, so there you go.

When channels start cross-promotions it usually foesn't take long for me to un-subscribe. Dead sure sign the main focus is switching to impressions and monetization. As are reaction videos, or worse reaction videos together with other youtube channels...
> 4 screens long blog post

Or blog posts that explain every little thing related to a topic before the information you searched for. In your case, for the article "Shops that are open on Sunday in 2022", <h2> titles would be:

"What is Sunday?"

"What is shopping?"

"Why you should prefer to shop on Sundays?"

"Is the distance to the shop important?"

"Remember to carry money"

etc...

There's a whole website seemingly built around this concept - WikiHow : )

It bursts at seams with brilliant "do not say!" type of tutorials - one my favorites is "How to Survive a Coup". Here's some of the advice given by the expert authors (who clearly must have survived a few coups back in the day):

"The most important thing to do during a coup is to stay out of range of gunfire [...] Stay tuned into social media sites like Facebook and Twitter to get regular updates on what is happening [...] If you have television, then you can also try watching your local news channel for updates [...] Leave the country or go to a safer region if the conflict continues"

So remember, try staying out of range of gunfire and don't forget to subscribe, everyone

The 'SponsorBlock' browser plugin helps a lot to shorten these long videos by skipping sponsored sections, intros, promotions, credits, etc. 'uBlock Origin' also helps by removing the ads.

For avoiding channels that are effectively spam, 'Channel Blocker' is helpful by adding an 'x' button you can click to block videos from that channel from being displayed. Another one, 'BlockTube' is good too which lets you auto-block videos based on keywords in video titles.

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I would say youtube peaked around 2012. Been downhill of a cliff ever since.
2012 is around when they rolled out personalization of your feed, which drastically increased hours spent on YouTube. So the data shows it was on an upward trajectory since then.
I'm talking about quality of content, not attention parasitism. Youtube peaked in quality in 2012, and probably hasn't peaked in attention parasitism yet.
> I searched for a software tutorial on Youtube and 90% of results are talking heads.

What else did you want on a video site? You just think they should not include their faces in the videos?

Yes? Heads add no value to a technical video, they function as a distraction at best.
Nonverbal communication is still valuable, I really don't mind to see who's talking compared to staring at an IDE for 3 minutes before they start.
> Heads add no value to a technical video

Body language. Expression.

None of them is required for this, it just steals valuable time from the actual content.

For example when trying to find physical hardware reviews (basically the only reason I can think of where a video can be more preferable to something written). And yet it is incredible how many reviewers think you'll be happy to stare at their faces for the majority of the "review"; practically all this runtime is them advertising themselves.

I guess not everyone communicates like you do.
Having a headshot for the introduction to the concepts is, to me, more useful than narration over a blank IDE.
Is it the same if you do a video search on Google, DDG, Bing?
It did so several years ago. It is now practically begging for a competition with deep pockets to end its journey. Toktok has taken a lot of the fun content away from it.
I still find youtube invaluable for tech related demos and tutorials. In fact, I've probably learned more in the last 5 years from youtube than any other source, books included.

There's little better than watching someone walk you through something new, especially when there's a good bit of exact configuration to get right.

As for other content, who knows. There's SO much stuff on youtube, stuff I wouldn't begin to know how to find. I'm sure most of it is of low value to most people, but I think some people just use it as a creative outlet, or a place to talk (with no viewers).

There is still some quality content on youtube, but the ads I get are awful and repetitive... It's probably my own fault though as I turn personalisation off (so likely no frequency capping)

And there's something tragic about people making content in their homes and reading out a marketing script about some crap for a minute.

why are you not using ublock & sponsorblock? Ads are a choice you know?
Ads aren't a choice on mobile or SmartTV.
pi-hole can still help with that, unless the client is running on android.
Watch through the browser on your phone or use Newpipe.
on mobile, newPipe (open source app) is great to get youtube content without ads, and/or listen to the music of a youtube video with the screen turned off.
Yt is a pile of bs with many hidden gems. There are great channels with awesome content. But they are not easy to find in the sea of bs.
It’s the fact that every video is 10 minutes long now because then you can monetise better.

The majority of videos have about ~3 minutes of the actual content that you’re interested in and 7 minutes of just pure fluff and fillers.

Have you tried the SponsorBlock plugin?
I've only just got into it and I found lots of good creators. It's not difficult to find them - avoid clickbaity titles/thumbnails, look for people funded by patreon, look for creators who publish longer videos (20-40 minutes) infrequently. Subscribe to those people and ignore the rest.

Same principle as reddit really - if content is being pushed into your face, it's probably worth avoiding. Seek out the high quality, less marketed content, subscribe to that and ignore what the algorithms send your way.

Yea there is a lot of crap nowadays, but fear not! The algorithm still surprises me with amazing content, mostly related to electro music. Comedy is harder to find
I would say Twitch peaked and now is declining. People are moving from Twitch to YouTube because they can put as much effort and make much more revenue. I don't know if YouTube is declining - it's definitely changed - but if you know where to look you can still find incredible videos and channel owners :)
I think that the monetization on youtubes (not individual creators) side is slowly destroying youtube.

Just a few years ago, you could search for anything, even current-political, and find a bunch of videos from a bunch of people, from "best trump insults" to "why xyz is bad?" .... but now, all the top search results about anything remotely current (be it politics, covid, russia/ukraine, crime, heatwaves,...), all you get is mainstream media (cnn, msnbc,....). If I wanted to watch CNN, I'd watch CNN, not youtube.

Add to this all the blatant demonetization of anything remotely non-politically-correct, discussing anything current, or even using a bad word.

For me, youtube has become in 90% just one more "cable tv" channel... mainstream media, and a few large media houses pushing their shitty videos. There are only a few channels left that I actually enjoy, and even those are producing less and less content every year.

> but now, all the top search results about anything remotely current (be it politics, covid, russia/ukraine, crime, heatwaves,...), all you get is mainstream media (cnn, msnbc,....). If I wanted to watch CNN, I'd watch CNN, not youtube.

I think this has nothing to do with monetization per se, it was an explicit decision taken by YT and hard-coded into the search and recommendations algorithms in light of the craze about "fake news".

It's very funny to notice when looking at videos from new media creators - even though I am subscribed, Like most videos I watch, watch them till the end etc, I will almost always get "redirected" to a mainstream news video if Auto-play is on, at least after 2-3 videos.

Yes it has. It seems like the downturn was a few years ago when they made their monetization system pay less to the content creators and introduced a high barrier to entry for monetization (1k subscribers).

Add in the algorithm preferring new content and channels that publish new videos frequently (weekly or more), making it essentially a full time job staying relevant.

Youtube money is not enough to pay for living in high cost of living countries any more. Almost every popular channel I follow is mostly funded by Patreon etc these days.

The people who made a living on YouTube started in the early 2010s or so. And I have understood that most of them aren't primarily funded by tube moneys any more.

There is some interesting stuff coming from low cost of living countries like India, Bangladesh and in particular Vietnam. Not enough to offset the loss of creators from western countries.

I have not seen a new and interesting channel by anyone living in America or Europe in many years.

Where are the content creators moving?
The ones I follow are mostly getting paid by Patreon subscriptions. Some are doing content for niche platforms specific to the hobby they dabble in. Some use YouTube for free previews of paid content available elsewhere.

But a lot of creators just quit.

There is no platform that is sucking creators out of youtube, there just isn't enough money from ad funded free content to keep it up.

> Yes it has. It seems like the downturn was a few years ago when they made their monetization system pay less to the content creators

Do you have a source for that? As far as I know, the YT revenue share has been stable (at 55% to the creator) for like 15 years.

Not right away and I don't have the time to search for it. Youtube is notoriously secretive about their contracts. There was a big outrage among the creators about the changes in 2017 or so.

The revenue split may have stayed the same but the revenue total has gone down, despite the huge increase in the number of ads.

E.g. Mathias Wandel has discussed the financial side of running YouTube if you want to dig deeper.

Sorting the wheat from the chaff has become indeed harder and harder, I guess this is more because of the dominance of the platform. What is definitely clear is that popularity-driven content curation produces a draining race-to-the-bottom for what gets put in our feed. Maybe for monetisation, instead of the first 30 seconds having been watched, a further time point should be set. As a Youtube Premium customer I would like to be able to say: this video was exploitative and disingenuous, do not monetize my 31 wasted seconds...