Ask HN: PayPal dismissed my claim, saying I didn't provide evidence (yet I did)
I apologize in advance, but it looks like it's my turn for social media big tech support.
I had a situation where OVH abused a PayPal authorization to charge me 1200€ for a "private cloud" credit I never asked. OVH refuses to refund me changing the reason for it every time, but well, that's another topic.
I filed a PayPal dispute, I added exchanges with OVH as evidence, where they constantly insist on me having this "credit" still available for me to use, and my insisting on not wanting it for any purpose (the 12€ I added were enough for my test) and not having ordered it.
Finally, PayPal ruled in favor of OVH claiming that I "never provided documentation to prove this credit".
Not only I did (OVH messages), but nobody asked me for evidence at any point: I could have provided extra information/screenshots where it is shown. I am positive OVH was requested multiple times for documentation to support their claims, but that was never the case for me, not sure if that's normal.
Now I'm stuck with an absurd amount of credit on a cloud service I have no use for (and worse, it expires in a year), and apparently there's no UI option for me to contest this PayPal ruling. Phoning them I found no option to talk to a person.
Other than lawyering up and contacting consumer protection organisations, what else is there to do? Anyone at PayPal can give me a hint?
Thanks in advance.
154 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 80.8 ms ] threadIf you’re in the US, Regulation E provides some protection from unauthorized charges. Though paying with a bank account is still silly because you’re losing out on cashback and credit cards always side with the customer in these disputes.
Maybe a bug or some UX/UI shenanigans, since I also got errors to cancel such invoice and obtain a refund. But since I complained through PayPal they've been acting in bad faith (like contesting my dispute the very last day without getting back to me, or changing the reason why I I'm not eligible for a refund).
The terms you agreed to states claims can be settled with arbitration. Opening a claim will cost a couple hundred dollars and will move them to action immediately.
Here is a great thread how this worked out for another person on HN.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31567673
I am an Anabaptist, and we are strongly against legal proceedings outside of extreme circumstance.
Makes total sense; I don't know why you'd question it!
That seems a bit reductive. From my understanding, it's not so much by the wrong people but rather without deliberate, conscious choice. Chiefly, anabaptists reject the notion of infant baptisms because an infant can't meaningfully repent and freely proclaim their belief in Christ. Which, as far as religion goes, seems like a reasonable position.
I didn’t know this is what set anabaptists aside.
A lot of distinctive Anabaptist beliefs have gotten mainstreamed over the centuries, and what they were once best known for is now much more widely practiced. But the name sticks for historical reasons and the group still exists. You can read a summary of beliefs here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleitheim_Confession In the modern mileu, I would say what is most unusual and distinctive about them is pacifism.
It's "legally binding", yes... but so is the initial contract.
> 7. In seeking to achieve a settlement, the Christian is committed to going the second mile. The Christian should support various alternatives to litigation such as arbitration and meditation.
http://www.anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php/The_Use_of...
For anyone else reading, the link might explain some of the philosophy.
However, when a corporation as large as PayPal blatantly ignores a significant financial claim from a singular individual rendering the individual helpless, it seems a bit extreme.
In this case you can use the system the Corporation set up to suppress your ability to fight back against them.
However, it would be nice if there is a means to recoup losses outside of a court system, whether it be through a system like the BBB, or similar.
> recoup losses outside of a court system
So your religion discourages going to court (because of money, and not of the court itself) and you are trying to find a way around that? Seems like you have to re-evaluate why you are in this faith in the first place.
See: sabbath elevators
Thank you for the kind reply. I certainly understand why you may be confused, and I appreciate that you did not ask in a nefarious manner. (Honestly, I regret bringing this up given how negatively people have already responded, but there isn't a means to delete this thread. Lesson learned. I'm just relieved I used a throwaway account.)
Anyway
---
Court System:
I am furious with company. I demand money from company and take them to court. If they do not appear in court, they may face coercion from the police. They very well may be hurt or killed in that process. If they still do not show, they will face jail time. In the event that they do show up to court, there are massive court fees on each side. The plaintiff demands more than what they are owed. The court process puts great emotional burden and financial strain on both parties. Both parties are unlikely to ever work together again, under any circumstance. Everything that is said in court is made public record, and can be used against either part in future cases. Both parties risk severe communal damage as a result of the case. "Did you hear that company lost? They must be criminals!" "Did you hear so-and-so won that legal case? He must be going on vacation with his winnings! He still owes me $300!" Etc. Additional parties are incentivized to "go after" the company for their own recompense, justified or otherwise.
Recoup losses:
I am unhappy with company. I approach the owner, the business (or in this case, some 3rd party, like the BBB) in a private setting. I inform them of my grievances. I ask them for the amount owed. If they do not comply, the police do not become involved. There is no chance for coercion, violence, or death. There is no chance of jail time. There are no massive fees. The amount I request is the amount I feel I am owed - it does not include court fees or lawyer-related payments. There may be minor embarrassment on each side, but the embarrassment is shared, and more crucially, is not made a public spectacle. The interaction is not recorded, or, if it is, is not easily remembered. Neither party will face long-term or devastating public disgrace as a result of the outcome. There is no incentive for additional parties to seek payment. I very well may work with the party in the future. (I have a specific ISP in mind, for example.)
---
I am, of course, leaving out a lot of scriptural elements as well, but I have been accused of "preaching" on previous occasions, so I will save my breath on that matter. Besides, given how horribly vicious people have been simply by mentioning a denomination, I would not wish to give them more coals to chew.
It is a hard thing to put to words, but the core difference is this: It is not merely getting the money owed to me that is important, but instead doing so in a way which does not harm the community in the process. Being given what I am owed is nice, but it would be better for me to receive nothing, than to do so in a way which would harm them in the process. I have no qualm holding my hand out and asking, but it is up to them to do the right thing.
I suspect that some of my Eastern brothers and sisters will know what I am talking about when I say: collectivism (culture not politics) trumps individualism. The body of Christ is made up of people not person ; I'm not sure how else to express it.
Hopefully that made some sort of sense.
Hopefully I don't come off as rude, but this seems like a very privileged position. I don't know OP's financial situation, but 1.2k is a lot of money to a lot of people. What should OP do if they were relying on this money to feed themselves, or their spouse/children?
Not everyone has 1.2k to throw away because they don't want to harm the person/company that stole it from them.
Your method probably works in situations where the issue was a genuine accident, and the company would right the wrong if they knew about it. But it seems, to me, to fall apart if we assume any actor in a situation is malicious, as you effectively give the thief the power to say "No" and then get away with their theft.
https://ew.com/recap/the-good-wife-season-6-episode-3/
That is exactly what arbitration is. It is an alternative means of dispute resolution from regular courts.
So if you insist applying 2 millenia old wisdoms to your everyday life, consider adding some Matthew 7:12 as well and sue them if they would have sued you in the same situation.
The obvious answer is to either avoid getting in the situation or to suck it up and account for getting ripped off as the price of learning. Vet your choices more carefully, use prepay, avoid systems where you don’t control the direct debiting of your accounts.
More generally, ask the question of your social group who will have specific knowledge and strategies that fit in with the rest of your social rules. Asking here seems like you would get poor advice because we don’t have much motivation to have learnt appropriate hacks for your issue, and mostly will have little experience of your issue.
Turn the other cheek, sure, but even Paul appealed to Caesar.
For example, counter claims for damages, including but not limited to, the attorney fees of the opposing party.
We had similarly good experiences with them a few years ago. They were easy to reach and they'd call back to check if everything was handled in an satisfactory manner.
(Booking.com on the other hand was terrible, we never got back the 120 Euro or so for a hotel room that we cancelled with agreement from the hotel. Only Kafka-esque support mazes.)
Their free support was good, but we decided to pay for the ~60usd a month premium support and we even had some video calls with one of their engineers who worked with us to help mitigate the issues.
Some will automatically enter a decimal and if you type "12" then it only enters 0.12. If you want 12.00, then you have to type 1200.
Others are the opposite. You enter "12" and you get 12.00. You have to manually enter the decimal if you want 0.12.
https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/14-..., instructions at the bottom for contacting your local european consumer center to complain. (Have heard this complaint process is very good + nearly automatic for airline refunds; not sure right of refusal cases).
If you're US based, you may be able to frame this as a gift certificate under the CARD act https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1693l-1, and at least dispute the expiration date. (But I'm not sure if this section gives you power to sue; you may have to contact your state AG).
(I'm not a lawyer)
The FTC recently took Walmart to court over similar behavior, essentially profiting off of crime.
It sounds like PayPal is asking you to prove you did not receive the cloud credits.
But what you should do is say you did not purchase cloud credits.
There is a difference between an unauthorized charge and goods not received.
OVH argued that the charge was a credit and not the service itself and that I still have the credit (hence, it was delivered).
Then I said that the reason should be charge unauthorized, as I canceled precisely because of the unexpected amount of the bill, and I didn't perform a credit. The reason switched mid claim.
PayPal finally said that I didn't prove I had credit on OVH, which is indeed confusing (meaning I didn't spend it?). If I didn't order it shouldn't matter what's on their platform.
If the order was canceled then how can it be claimed not received? The charge occurring on a canceled order is an unauthorized charge. I'd recommend to file that type of claim. They are different and OVH is being terse. It's something you can do before you call Saul.
More commonly, they just somehow have access to a list of packages shipped recently and provide a tracking number that shows as shipped to your zip code.
I had one use a tracking number from before I even ordered as their evidence...PayPal accepted their evidence...
They can take me to court if there’s an issue.
I have been burned before. Unless it’s a bank and are heavily regulated they are not your friends.
Having a dedicated card/account for just paypal is easier.
I highly recommend that instead of Paypal too if you suspect a site will have a much higher chance you'll need to reverse a charge. Paypal has longer wait times for disputes than the CC companies. CC companies will also have your back a bit more, typically.
[1]: https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/where-can-i-find...
It used to be completely rediculous how much PayPal would charge for conversion at the time of a transaction, but recently (I think in response to a lawsuit) it is only somewhat unreasonable (probably the 4% you mention). You can still get a better rate if you have funds in PayPal and do the conversion first and pay in the correct currency. However, then you risk a lengthy pain if PayPal decides to close your account randomly or block your access to it.
Went to paypal. Attached death threats from company.
Paypal sided with the company.
This isn't an excuse for their bad behavior but I don't understand why anyone continues to use them.
I still use them mainly because of eBay. I know that's but required now, but it was until pretty recently.
It's still often easier to use the PayPal checkout instead of making a one-off account at a random place.
Probably not worth it as a whole, but feels worth it sometimes to delay my cancellation a while.
How was OVH able to pull €1200 from your PayPal account? Did you go to PayPal's website (for example via a popup triggered by the OVH website) and told PayPal to let them pull €1200?
Now that they got the money, how is Paypal still part of it? Do you expect Paypal to go to OVH, knock down their door and demand the money back?
I would think that if you want your money back, you need to involve the authorities. The government has a monopoly on violence. If you want somebody to go and knock down OVH's door, thats a job of the authorities. Obviously, OVH would probably already give you your money back if the authorities demand that. Nobody likes to get their door knocked down.
PayPal said I didn't provide evidence that I provided: that the credit is still there unused, siding with them as arbiter against the evidence.
Normally that's what Paypal is for. They're not going to burst through any doors but if a vendor wants to keep using their services they surely have a lot of leverage.
Not so! They said since I didn't send in evidence in response to their very subtle prompt the decision defaulted to the claimant and I was out a bunch of money.
It was the last time I used PayPal or ebay for anything.
I know we submitted evidence that a car we rented was a minorly damaged vehicle (it was marked on the sheet during the checkout) and then tried to bill us for the repair after taking the car back. We submitted pictures of the damaged car in the rental lot, the paper work indicating the damage. The car company rejected our dispute. The credit card company didn't. I even enlisted our french intern (native speaker) to call said company and ask what is going on. They got the run around ("French bureaucracy is the worst")
They even blocked when said car company tried to charge again after the rejection. Good times.
I filed an arbitration using a service called FairShake (https://fairshake.com/), and finally they decided to settle with me. They said they will give me my money, but I can no longer use any of their services including Venmo. I agreed and took the money.
Happy to answer any questions regarding my experience, feel free to telegram me @tdpae
actually not necessarily even a new card if you’ve used AMEX Send thats valid in lieu of the exact same AMEX Card it was linked to
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring
Thanks for your concern, this is just circumventing a dark pattern of poor UX