Fantastic read. Funnily enough, I developed a similar obsession with my 2005 Subaru Outback (having picked it up at around 200k kms, there was quite a bit to replace/fix).
I have a regular Ford Focus from 2004. Not obssessed with it by any stretch but I am curious as to what's the final mileage this machine can do over the years. It's now on 260k kms, which I think it's not much. Other than that, I guess I will part ways with it when combustion engines get forbidden in the Madrid city area where I live.
To be fair, it seems all petrol car models from that era onwards are robust and reliable too!
My previous car was a 1982 Renault 14, handed over to me by my father. By 1996, with 120000 km that car had carburator and distributor issues that left me stranded on the roadside quite a few times. The Focus has had zero mechanical problems in 18 years doubling the distance. I believe gasoline engine technology did a quantum leap in the 90s decade.
My first car (1993) was a Citroen BX. I loved the hydropneumatic suspension. The car would rise slowly after you started the engine. And there was a special mode where you could rise the car even higher to pass rough terrain.
Bought a Xantia a few years back mainly to try out the hydropneumatics. Not only did it tame the noticeable bumps, it smoothed regular roads mile after mile. I remember often thinking “Did they resurface that road since last time?”, and feeling like trips seemed shorter. Cool Giugiaro body too. Great car. Rust in peace, mon ami.
From part 4: "Since becoming my hobby rather than sole means of transport..."
I was listening to an interview with Ray Magliozzi, the author of Car Talk, and he was asked what it would take to do his show, but about bicycles. The answer was, you'd need to make the bikes more complex and prone to failure.
> you'd need to make the bikes more complex and prone to failure.
Also much more expensive, so that people are forced to consider doing these complex repairs themselves, or hiring mechanics, instead of just junking it.
(Yes, there are many stupidly expensive bikes, both for sports racing and hipsterism. But those bikes are not bought by most regular people who just want a means of transport, and it’s most regular people who would be the target audience of such a bike talk show.)
now that ebikes are becoming common, I'd say we're getting closer to an automotive attitude. nobody is going to junk an ebike, even an entry-level 800 EUR one
One aspect still missing (to create a bike talk show) is that e-bikes seems not to break down that often, nor are the repairs that expensive that you are sorely tempted to do it yourself.
C6 is one of the most fascinating Citroens of recent era. And it’s probably a good investment as a youngtimer, it’s rare and the prices or only going up from now.
The low sales model are almost never a good investment for daily usage cars because there won't be as many replacement part from wreckers once official support ends.
Well, the maintenance cost is always higher for vintage cars.
I am pointing to the fact that it's quite unique design that I, personally, subjectively, think has a potential to ripe over time, just like some other older Citroens.
I don't mean it as everyday replacement of modern car, I agree that doesn't work. The development in car industry is actually so fast, that a new car is infinitely better than a 10yo car.
The C6 was honestly a bit of a disappointment. Yes, it felt like a last hurrah back to the glory days of Citroën with the DS and the CX, but it still fell short. The C6 only used the hydropneumatic system for suspension. Steering and brakes were replaced with ordinary systems. And while it gave as smooth a ride as any classic hydropneumatic Citroën, it always felt like it didn't quite get there.
But the biggest sin of all, and even Top Gear mentioned this, is the lack of leg room in the backseat. Even my Xantia has better leg room there than the C6. And maintenance wise, it's a nightmare. It's nowhere as rock-solid as the XM or as "simple" as a DS. While it's probably a good investment, considering its few numbers (only 23k were made, I believe), and the fact that it's interesting, it's probably best to mostly keep it in a garage for one or two decades.
I really wanted to be excited about the C6, but it's so much further down my Citroën shopping list than even a Dyane 6 (and I'm mostly into Citroën for the hydropneumatic suspension).
I also had a Xantia at some point and the hidraulic had a complete failure while doing a 360 downhill in the sierras here in Portugal. It was mighty scary as everything failed: suspension, steering and brakes (and I got the dreaded red stop light on the dash). Thankfully I was going very slowly and there was a long straight to help me stop. I think having a separate system for the breaks is a good thing.
I have to add that I was very happy with that car and my riding experience mirrors the article even though it was not a C6.
The advantage of the combined suspension and braking meant that the car would adjust its brake pressure based on load. A heavier loaded car would thus brake harder with the same amount of pedal pressure.
The handbrake is still entirely mechanic, and is your emergency brake in case the brakes fail (the same would be the case on a regular car). Fortunately, I've never had that experience yet, and while I've heard the stories, I am still convinced the combined steering, braking and suspension system is a mechanical superior system, even if it requires more maintenance. I'd concede, that from a maintenance's perspective, it's an inferior system. Which is probably why Citroën abandoned it.
My renault handbrake is electronically actuated, motor driven. It’s got all of the reliability of Renault electrical systems.
Mechanically, it’s pretty solid. THere are wear issues with the front suspension, but that’s as much Ireland’s obsession with speed bumps as anything else. And there was one issue with the shared hydraulic clutch/ braking fluid system failing.
But electronics? Wiring harness? Windows? Horrible. The driver's window only properly works in France. Sunroof sticks open, passenger window only goes down unless triple click force locking everything. Which is lovely when driving in 32c into a thunderstorm. (Ac? Long gone). Rear lights have totally gone a couple of times.
Maybe. But some things work when super locking that don’t work otherwise. The France thing was funny, but there are far more variations in the electrical system than can be explained by just condensation.
Drivers window would either: not work at all, only go down unless triple clicked, be reversed (push down to go up, et vice versa), only go down and then only go up (current behavior).
One week into an extended trip to France, it started working fine. It then continued to work fine until a couple of days after we returned to Ireland.
This car is an adventure, rarely completely comfortable, but it has only stranded us once. (The clutch/brake thing). But it fits 5 people + dog, tows a trailer, isn’t too horrible for mileage (~35-40mpg without trailer, 30 with / 6-6.5 l/100km vs 7.9) and is paid for.
(And helpfully, the passenger window now is refusing to go up. I blame Belgium, but we’ll see if that gets better with a passage through France tomorrow.). I tell you, there is no way you could ever get me to buy a Renault electric car.
I used the handbrake to stop in that occasion and it just reduces speed and is very hard to stop the car with it. I used the gear box and turned it off for a hard stop. The mechanic that got me out of this drove the car downhill for a couple of km just using the gear box and the handbrake to negotiate the terrain, that was a scary ride.
If you ever smell something like rubber burning after you do some difficult parking with lots of turns then have the hidraulic pump looked into. This is what happenend to me, it had these smells every now and then that I could not identify until it failed and then the cause was clear (something wore off in the pump, sorry I can't remember specifics anymore).
I loved the Avantime, never had one, but wanted to one day. Top gear or grand tour (don't remember which one) really destroyed it in one of their show, so maybe it's for the best that I never wasted the money.
There are actually a couple of companies doing EV conversions for classic cars. Safety is an issue so, and safety is also what will make a pure 50s visiual desogn impossible today.
Most of the design language that I yearn for has zero effect on safety. I don't want my car to look like an aggressive feline animal when viewed from the front, but essentially all modern cars do. I want my rear lights to be shaped like, well, lights, not like abstract paintings. Etc
The issue in part comes from not having a grille, so that the front looks empty and boring. They are filling that space the way they can, but a grille also saves a ton of heavy, expensive metal on the part. Cue the abundant plastic inserts in electric cars.
Overall I think the tesla and kona have doing it well and Toyota has been overdoing it.
First of all, I would wonder what you consider a "normal car"? The older Citroën cars shown in the article were all "normal". But indeed ahead of their time.
The shape of "normal" cars, which I assume are ICE cars for you has very much varied over the decades. In the late 80ies and early 90ies there were quite a few models designed strictly for good aerodynamics, later on the aerodynamic efficiency unfortunately dropped quite a bit. Recent years car designs are not very good in my eyes.
To answer the question: a lot of the traditional car design comes from designing around combustion engines. They need cooling and more space than an electric motor. See for example the return to rear wheel drive, as this makes most sense with a tiny electric engine. The huge front space is basically only needed for crash safety. At least some cars offer a good frunk. Of course the shift to electric cars will lead to different designs. Aerodynamic becomes much more important, no big engine, but instead a large battery, but at differen places in the car.
And of course a good bit of marketing. Beyond the technical needs, you want a new generation of cars also to look "new". Good design though combines new looks with the new technological requirements.
I think GP means that many EVs are visually designed to explicitly advertise they're EVs in extremely obvious, sometimes tacky ways by overusing some pop sci fi tropes (electricity is blue, polygons are futuristic...)
Goes to the sound too, Renault Zoe emits a retrofuturistic drone that evokes all kinds of Star Wars hoverbikes and crafts.
Some may look nice right now, challenging current mainstream design trends, some may not but turn out to look nice someday. Others are just annoying because they scream "look look I'm an EV" either for status symbol or brand recognition, which feels very artificial/superficial.
>>Goes to the sound too, Renault Zoe emits a retrofuturistic drone that evokes all kinds of Star Wars hoverbikes and crafts.
I mean, that comes from a simple design question - how do you warn pedestrians in an audible way that one of these is nearby? My Volvo XC60 PHEV doesn't make any sound when being driven in EV mode, and people just don't hear it coming. You can pull up right behind someone(pedestrian) in a parking lot and they are completely oblivious there is a car behind them. Of course sound isn't the only thing pedestrians should rely on, but it is an actual problem - electric cars are just completely silent.
My Volkswagen e-Up has a sound generator and it emits sound like a small ICE, but not quite - it's like uncanny valley of sound.
Is that better than ZOE's futurisic sounds? I really don't know. But I do believe they should emit something.
There's plenty normal-looking EVs around. We have a Volkwagen e-Up and you can only tell it's electric by looking at the badge. It looks like a normal Up in every other aspect.
Same with the likes of the Kia Niro, Hyundai Ioniq(not the Ioniq 5, I mean the sedan), I'd argue that the Audi E-Tron, E-Tron Q4, E-Tron GT, Porsche Taycan - they all look like completely normal cars. If you told me they have a combusion engine inside I'd believe you.
i developed an obsession with Rocky Mountains mountain-bike; although mine is cheap one, the bike is well-designed and can attain speeds of 35 km/h within 10-seconds...I can bike at that speed for up to 40 km before I can describe it as a modest workout.
The bike is my friend. It seems to think...and have its own opinions. No, I am no schizo....I sometimes talk to it. I ask it: how you baby?
Citroën is slowly dying. It's always been a quirky brand, but PSA has chosen to make Peugeot the main brand (let's ignore the PRC for now), and Citroën has been demoted to almost pure quirk. I don't expect it to survive now that Stellantis is a thing, maybe as a regional Chinese brand the way Opels as sold as Vauxhalls in the UK.
If PSA/Stellantis has decided to do that, they didn’t do a good job at communicating this. Citroen has a premium brand with DS which Peugeot does not have and so far they haven’t fully detached that from Citroen yet.
As Ed Bolian put it once - this sort of thing is the true test of your automotive obsession. When presented with a car like this, which undoubtedly has a several pages long list of fixes and items that needed replacing, do you then:
1) realize that this car is going to be a money pit, it kept breaking down for years and it will very likely continue doing so
or
2) decide that this is actually great - look at this massive list of repairs! Surely it means the car is well maintained and will serve you trouble free for years.
I have a 2006 Subaru Forester with the turbo engine. I've replaced the exhaust, radiator, fixed numerous oil leaks, and the steering fluid is leaking now. I feel 0 love for it and see it as a weight around my neck, but I feel beholden to keep it going for some reason. Maybe it's the sunk cost concept.
Oh it gets shitty gas mileage too and the AC cuts out after 25 minutes.
I don't think it's turning into obsession (god, I hope not), but when I look to sell it the market is flooded with similar makes and models and nothing is selling. It's like "what's the point if I can't get my money back out?"
When I do drive it though and I stomp on the gas pedal it feels like a rocket ship and my love for it is reaffirmed just a little bit.
I had this type of relation with my previous Peugeot 307. Bought it used for €6000, drove it for ten years. Towards the end, all the ABS sensors were held on by epoxy since the bolts had snapped off during replacements. Fun fact, when the ABS system is out of operation and you lock up the wheels on an icy road going 70-80 km/h, the car is easy to control but it automatically turns on the hazard lights. Confused the hell out of me at first.
I had a jury rigged wiring harness for the front indicator lights. The exhaust consisted more and more of my crappy stick welds rather than original metal. I had changed basically all suspension and brake parts at least once myself. Main headlights were starting to wear thin since the haze had been polished off many times.
Drove it until the front right wheel literally fell off during one Christmas holiday (the steering link broke and the wheel turned 90 degrees out, fortunately at low speed). At that point it had close to 300 000 km on it, and we had been test driving new cars for almost a year in anticipation of the final trip to the eternal rusting fields. Total cost of ownership was amazing though, and it was really spacious and practical, I miss that car.
By the end of my time with it, my 307 headlight stick would also trigger the horn whenever I turned on the high beams, the AC would stop working at around 90 KM/h, the air intake pipe to the turbo had at least two tears glued down and I had to carry a 5L jug of water replenish the radiator on hot days. I sold it with 340k KM and AFAIK it's still being driven, refusing to die.
I can answer that one - it absolutely wouldn't. An electric car is vastly better than a new ICE car from eco perspective, if you're buying new. But keeping your old car and driving it instead will always be more ecologically sound.
I'm the guy who wrote the article on Driven to Write. I'm delighted it's sparked further discussion and debate here.
Interestingly, I have started to investigate whether it's possible to convert it to an EV. There's a company in the UK which has developed and shown an EV conversion for the DS which set my mind wondering. It'll be stupidly expensive but might just create the best looking EV this side of the converted DS.
OP here. I found your article after once again being dragged down the C6 rabbit hole. There was a comment on my earlier post re Jacques Pepin’s love of French cars, and off I went.
I was very close to buying a C6 after my Xantia perished a couple of years ago Found a winner with a manual transmission on a C6 forum, but got sniped somehow. Ended up with a German midsize estate, which is highly competent, and has a stick so it’s reasonably satisfying. I don’t look back at it every time I walk away though.
I’m sure you’re aware of Neil Young’s project involving vintage Lincoln behemoths. This was a decade ago at least. Ended in tragedy, IIRC, but I believe it inspired others to re-look at what vintage cars could make good conversion candidates.
It's true that there are a few manual C6s. I think they all came with the 2.2L four pot diesel, which did an OK job under the bonnet/ hood of the C6, but change the wafting nature of the car and came without the semi-intelligent AMVAR management of the suspension.
I'm under no illusion that the C6 is an imperfect interpretation of Citroen's prior oleopneumatic mastery - I simply was not brave enough at the time to go for a DS, or a CX or XM for that matter, all of which I believe would be more true to how a large oleopneumatic Cit should be. Particularly disappointing is that PSA did not see to fit the Xantia Activa's 'active' suspension - that would have been one heck of a car. As it is, I know of people who put 3.0L V6 engines in the bays of UK-spec Xantia Activas to create true sheep in wolf's clothing, cars that scare Porsches and Ferraris on track-days, so I am assured.
Right, the stick went on the base C6. A tradeoff for sure.
I thought the Activa Xantias all had the 3.0? What I don’t understand is how the “real” sports car companies are happy to let the Xantia sit at the top of the moose test ranking for decades! It’s not an embarrassment?
My other current car is a similar deep sleeper, although on a different aspect of performance. Suits me fine.
I've had a couple of CXes, a couple of GSAs, a BX, and about five XMs, and an AX GT (which obviously didn't have hydropneumatic suspension but did have a 90bhp engine in a 600kg body).
Hey, if you are interested in noughties French car design, I have posted a piece today on the Renault Megane II, which includes a link to a series of articles co-written by Patrick Le Quement on a great design discussion website called 'Design Field Trip'.
80 comments
[ 4.2 ms ] story [ 141 ms ] threadMy previous car was a 1982 Renault 14, handed over to me by my father. By 1996, with 120000 km that car had carburator and distributor issues that left me stranded on the roadside quite a few times. The Focus has had zero mechanical problems in 18 years doubling the distance. I believe gasoline engine technology did a quantum leap in the 90s decade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-levelling_suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVEXptaQszI
I was listening to an interview with Ray Magliozzi, the author of Car Talk, and he was asked what it would take to do his show, but about bicycles. The answer was, you'd need to make the bikes more complex and prone to failure.
Also much more expensive, so that people are forced to consider doing these complex repairs themselves, or hiring mechanics, instead of just junking it.
(Yes, there are many stupidly expensive bikes, both for sports racing and hipsterism. But those bikes are not bought by most regular people who just want a means of transport, and it’s most regular people who would be the target audience of such a bike talk show.)
The idea that an old luxury car is "better" than a newer economy model is something that sounds nice, but just doesn't work out
I am pointing to the fact that it's quite unique design that I, personally, subjectively, think has a potential to ripe over time, just like some other older Citroens.
I don't mean it as everyday replacement of modern car, I agree that doesn't work. The development in car industry is actually so fast, that a new car is infinitely better than a 10yo car.
But the biggest sin of all, and even Top Gear mentioned this, is the lack of leg room in the backseat. Even my Xantia has better leg room there than the C6. And maintenance wise, it's a nightmare. It's nowhere as rock-solid as the XM or as "simple" as a DS. While it's probably a good investment, considering its few numbers (only 23k were made, I believe), and the fact that it's interesting, it's probably best to mostly keep it in a garage for one or two decades.
I really wanted to be excited about the C6, but it's so much further down my Citroën shopping list than even a Dyane 6 (and I'm mostly into Citroën for the hydropneumatic suspension).
I have to add that I was very happy with that car and my riding experience mirrors the article even though it was not a C6.
The handbrake is still entirely mechanic, and is your emergency brake in case the brakes fail (the same would be the case on a regular car). Fortunately, I've never had that experience yet, and while I've heard the stories, I am still convinced the combined steering, braking and suspension system is a mechanical superior system, even if it requires more maintenance. I'd concede, that from a maintenance's perspective, it's an inferior system. Which is probably why Citroën abandoned it.
Mechanically, it’s pretty solid. THere are wear issues with the front suspension, but that’s as much Ireland’s obsession with speed bumps as anything else. And there was one issue with the shared hydraulic clutch/ braking fluid system failing.
But electronics? Wiring harness? Windows? Horrible. The driver's window only properly works in France. Sunroof sticks open, passenger window only goes down unless triple click force locking everything. Which is lovely when driving in 32c into a thunderstorm. (Ac? Long gone). Rear lights have totally gone a couple of times.
I'm sorry... what? :D
One week into an extended trip to France, it started working fine. It then continued to work fine until a couple of days after we returned to Ireland.
This car is an adventure, rarely completely comfortable, but it has only stranded us once. (The clutch/brake thing). But it fits 5 people + dog, tows a trailer, isn’t too horrible for mileage (~35-40mpg without trailer, 30 with / 6-6.5 l/100km vs 7.9) and is paid for.
(And helpfully, the passenger window now is refusing to go up. I blame Belgium, but we’ll see if that gets better with a passage through France tomorrow.). I tell you, there is no way you could ever get me to buy a Renault electric car.
If you ever smell something like rubber burning after you do some difficult parking with lots of turns then have the hidraulic pump looked into. This is what happenend to me, it had these smells every now and then that I could not identify until it failed and then the cause was clear (something wore off in the pump, sorry I can't remember specifics anymore).
https://www.imcdb.org/m119177.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cars_of_the_The_Fifth_E...
Overall I think the tesla and kona have doing it well and Toyota has been overdoing it.
I think GP means that many EVs are visually designed to explicitly advertise they're EVs in extremely obvious, sometimes tacky ways by overusing some pop sci fi tropes (electricity is blue, polygons are futuristic...)
Goes to the sound too, Renault Zoe emits a retrofuturistic drone that evokes all kinds of Star Wars hoverbikes and crafts.
Some may look nice right now, challenging current mainstream design trends, some may not but turn out to look nice someday. Others are just annoying because they scream "look look I'm an EV" either for status symbol or brand recognition, which feels very artificial/superficial.
I mean, that comes from a simple design question - how do you warn pedestrians in an audible way that one of these is nearby? My Volvo XC60 PHEV doesn't make any sound when being driven in EV mode, and people just don't hear it coming. You can pull up right behind someone(pedestrian) in a parking lot and they are completely oblivious there is a car behind them. Of course sound isn't the only thing pedestrians should rely on, but it is an actual problem - electric cars are just completely silent.
My Volkswagen e-Up has a sound generator and it emits sound like a small ICE, but not quite - it's like uncanny valley of sound.
Is that better than ZOE's futurisic sounds? I really don't know. But I do believe they should emit something.
Same with the likes of the Kia Niro, Hyundai Ioniq(not the Ioniq 5, I mean the sedan), I'd argue that the Audi E-Tron, E-Tron Q4, E-Tron GT, Porsche Taycan - they all look like completely normal cars. If you told me they have a combusion engine inside I'd believe you.
The bike is my friend. It seems to think...and have its own opinions. No, I am no schizo....I sometimes talk to it. I ask it: how you baby?
EDIT: why the downvotes?
1) realize that this car is going to be a money pit, it kept breaking down for years and it will very likely continue doing so
or
2) decide that this is actually great - look at this massive list of repairs! Surely it means the car is well maintained and will serve you trouble free for years.
(that's the video in question - highly entertaining imho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUXm72vyXOE )
Oh it gets shitty gas mileage too and the AC cuts out after 25 minutes.
I don't think it's turning into obsession (god, I hope not), but when I look to sell it the market is flooded with similar makes and models and nothing is selling. It's like "what's the point if I can't get my money back out?"
When I do drive it though and I stomp on the gas pedal it feels like a rocket ship and my love for it is reaffirmed just a little bit.
I had a jury rigged wiring harness for the front indicator lights. The exhaust consisted more and more of my crappy stick welds rather than original metal. I had changed basically all suspension and brake parts at least once myself. Main headlights were starting to wear thin since the haze had been polished off many times.
Drove it until the front right wheel literally fell off during one Christmas holiday (the steering link broke and the wheel turned 90 degrees out, fortunately at low speed). At that point it had close to 300 000 km on it, and we had been test driving new cars for almost a year in anticipation of the final trip to the eternal rusting fields. Total cost of ownership was amazing though, and it was really spacious and practical, I miss that car.
Interestingly, I have started to investigate whether it's possible to convert it to an EV. There's a company in the UK which has developed and shown an EV conversion for the DS which set my mind wondering. It'll be stupidly expensive but might just create the best looking EV this side of the converted DS.
Thanks for your time.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32368624
I was very close to buying a C6 after my Xantia perished a couple of years ago Found a winner with a manual transmission on a C6 forum, but got sniped somehow. Ended up with a German midsize estate, which is highly competent, and has a stick so it’s reasonably satisfying. I don’t look back at it every time I walk away though.
I’m sure you’re aware of Neil Young’s project involving vintage Lincoln behemoths. This was a decade ago at least. Ended in tragedy, IIRC, but I believe it inspired others to re-look at what vintage cars could make good conversion candidates.
I'm under no illusion that the C6 is an imperfect interpretation of Citroen's prior oleopneumatic mastery - I simply was not brave enough at the time to go for a DS, or a CX or XM for that matter, all of which I believe would be more true to how a large oleopneumatic Cit should be. Particularly disappointing is that PSA did not see to fit the Xantia Activa's 'active' suspension - that would have been one heck of a car. As it is, I know of people who put 3.0L V6 engines in the bays of UK-spec Xantia Activas to create true sheep in wolf's clothing, cars that scare Porsches and Ferraris on track-days, so I am assured.
I thought the Activa Xantias all had the 3.0? What I don’t understand is how the “real” sports car companies are happy to let the Xantia sit at the top of the moose test ranking for decades! It’s not an embarrassment?
My other current car is a similar deep sleeper, although on a different aspect of performance. Suits me fine.
I wish I still had them.
The article can be found on this link : https://driventowrite.com/2022/08/16/unforgotten-the-renault.... I hope I am not offending anyone related to this site by including this link.