99 comments

[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 168 ms ] thread
Conclusion:

> At this time, research is largely inconclusive as to the potential synergistic benefits when n-3 [i.e., Omega-3 fatty acids] is supplemented in conjunction with exercise.

I am glad that negative results are still published and receive some attention.
(comment deleted)
I take fish oils for brain health, since our brain is made of fat and the more (good) fats we have in our diet, the better it is for the brain. I also use MCT oil and combine it with eggs and use it as dressing on salad.

If I was going to use supplements for exercise, I would use protein, glucosamine (for joint health) and maybe 200mg of caffeine as a pre-workout stimulant to help me focus. Milk, especially 'protein milk' which they sell in my local supermarket can alleviate sore muscles.

> I take fish oils for brain health, since our brain is made of fat and the more (good) fats we have in our diet, the better it is for the brain.

Is that an assumption, or is it based on fact?

“There is no difference between a stick of butter and your brain.”, Hibbeln

- https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17523575-800-the-happ...

"A study by JR Hibbeln showed that around the world, countries that consume the least amount of fatty fish show the highest levels of major depression (MDD) in their population. And countries where fatty fish is the main diet show the lowest incidence of MDD."

- https://www.loricalabresemd.com/blog/effect-of-fatty-acids/

Would be nice if they linked the study or at least an article about it.
With respect, 'More we have, the better it is' is not a sensible idea to follow with diet. Hold on I'm being too polite. It's dead wrong. Better to Look for optimum intake according to best advice you can glean. As the paper itself reminds us, 'too much omega-3 fat is immunosuppressive and prolongs bleeding time.'
I once took fish oil supplements. Then somebody told me how they make them. They put fish remnants in a pot with water, boil it, then scrape the fat from the top of the pot. Since there are basically no checks for how supplements are made it's a much better idea to eat high quality unprocessed foods.
You can take algal oil, same thing and much less repulsive.
Also 8 times more expensive.
Ok but it's not too expensive in terms of absolutes as well as the value of good health. And if you are vegan it's the only option.
You can add seaweed aka sea vegetables to your diet.

e.g.,

https://draxe.com/nutrition/kelp/

If you live on the coast, there are almost certainly culinary varieties of sea weed in your area. You may need a fishing license-- in California, we can take up to 10 lbs (~4.5 kg) without a license.

Avoid areas anywhere near the outfall of a stream, storm drain, etc.

Seems like an effective way to extract the fat and get use out of whole fish. Similar to any soup. I do wish FDA regulated some supplements but I think reputable brands are doing the good for the most part.
I... don't see an issue with that? It sounds very hygienic (it's boiled) and with rather light processing - mechanical breaking, boiling, decanting and filtering. No enzymes, high pressure, additives... I think that's about as clean and bio as you can get.

Or am I missing something?

> glucosamine (for joint health)

Studies on it are mixed. Interestingly, you omitted creatine. Studies on it are not mixed; it increases power output.

Nit pick, it just provides extra creatine in muscles, which is required for atp. You basically get a couple extra reps per set if you workout, not necessarily more power. Helps you gain muscle by giving you more energy to stress your muscles, so they adapt more.
Vitamins and supplements stay losing. What a racket.
Vitamins and minerals have cured my hopeless eczema. No doctor could do that for nearly a decade
> have cured my hopeless eczema

I’m glad you found something that worked. But you’re describing, by definition, a vitamin deficiency. (That can cause dermatitis.)

What deficiencies can cause eczema?

Pretty sure mine is a side effect of my allergies but interested in covering my bases.

> What deficiencies can cause eczema?

Dermatitis/eczema (the terms are used frustratingly interchangeably) describes a set of symptoms. It covers poison ivy rashes (contact) to cradle cap (biotin deficiency). Atopic dermatitis [1], is not tied to any nutrition deficit. (My sister had atopic dermatitis growing up.)

So if you displayed dermatitis symptoms and found vitamins cured it, it may have been non-atopic. Your method worked. But it hasn't been shown to help someone with the atopic kind.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atopic_dermatitis

I had a very serious case of atopic eczema wrongly attributed to an allergy to metals. Doctors had tried everything. I had resorted to wearing medical cotton gloves, and a thick perma layer of cortisone cream (nicely colored red by it mixing with my open flesh). Over the counter all-in-one vitamins & minerals have cured me. I am not lying! I now think that the root cause of my condition was my immune system. The allergy was probably just a consequence
would you mind sharing what you took. I've been suffering from eczema for nearly a year I believe. I've been taking some vit. D and Cod liver oil, some zinc (only some months).
I had previously tried taking the individual supplements you describe. It didn't work. My miracle cure came from standard Sainsbury's A-Z Vitamins and Minerals. One tablet a day. It's also crazy cheap. 100% cured. Mind you my condition was such that I'd seriously contemplated amputating limbs. If it works for you, you should start seeing clear results in 30 days. If it improves, keep taking until healed. In my case, my eczema is completely in remission. 3 days without my pill and an army of bubbles will start forming under my skin (and trying to burst through)

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/multi-vitamins/s...

I'm a long time Vegan, few month back I started tacking a multi-vitamin for no special reason.. I do blood tests from time to time and everything looks fine.. No deficiencies. Still, I notices I was getting less tired in specific situations.. I'm not sure what exact ingredient had this effect but hopefully the multi-vitamin is not causing any damage so I keep taking them.
Probably B12? Has an energizing effect, and is often a megadose in multivitamins.
Vegetarian here who recently started taking multi vitamins + extra vitamin d + k2 (after being diagnosed with a severe vitamin d deficiency). I also get less tired since and even more so my sleep has improved drastically within about 2 months. I fall asleep _so_ much faster. Usually 10 minutes now instead of an hour and I also sleep through most nights instead of waking up 6 or 7 times for no reason for the past 10 years. I haven't changed other variables (I think) but so far I am happy with the results. Also purely anecdotal.
Using Cronometer to track daily (micro)nutrition is what convinced me to take a daily multivitamin.

It takes quite a varied, deliberate diet to fill up all the nutritional progress bars. I don't do it every day and some days I can't even do it with what's left in my fridge. Some days I feel like filling up on only three things.

I figure a multivitamin can fill in some holes.

I wish I could perceive some kind of even minuscule cause-effect for any of the supplements I take, barring caffeine
That reminds me of how people who wear WHOOP watches stop drinking alcohol as much because they noticed the impact it had on their cardio.

Would be interesting if you could reliably measure certain health metrics beyond heart rate over time.

I bet that would get people to take or avoid certain things.

Do you know anybody with one? I've never heard of WHOOP before. It looks cool, but $30/month for what seems like a fitbit is a bit much for me. I guess the difference is the WHOOP device is included in the subscription.

Id be interested to hear someone's experience with it vs a 'normal' fitness tracker.

I've been a fitness and gadget junkie for a long time.

I was gifted a WHOOP 6-month subscription in December 2020, and I used it from then until the end of that 6-month term. This was the 3.0 platform.

It was fine for the price - $0 - and provided me with HRV and a "sleep score", which is of interest to me and other athletes as one indicator of "fitness."

I did not - and will not - pay $360/year for WHOOP. I could actually buy a pretty nice state-of-the-art new real fitness tracker for less than that, and the features that were somewhat novel to WHOOP are now standard on other hardware platforms (Garmin, Polar, others). Note that with many Fitbits and clones, you get GPS built-in so you can leave your phone at home and do your thing.

It differed from other fitness trackers mostly by what it didn't have, and DC Rainmaker has exhaustive reviews up to and including the current 4.0 release.

In short, it's not a fitness tracker like a Fitbit Charge 4 or a Garmin Venu 2 Plus - I own both - because it doesn't track steps, has no GPS (you need to lug around your phone for that), and relies entirely on HR for what it tells you - all for a pretty heavy price tag. It also doesn't pair with 3rd party HR hardware (such as the usually more accurate EKG-based ones like a Garmin or TICKR chest strap) and relies on wrist optical sensors.

There are a number of metrics WHOOP reports, but they are simply rehashed versions of metrics developed by Andy Coggan and others some time ago.

TL;DR: WHOOP is overpriced and not feature-rich as a fitness/activity tracker. If you get one for free, try it out. You can easily get the same functionality and more for half the price of a yearly subscription.

(comment deleted)
What's funny is that it's not a secret that alcohol isn't good for you; we shouldn't need a WHOOP to tell us the obvious. But here we are.
I started taking 3g of pharmaceutical grade fish oil about 1 year ago with 5000IUs vitamin D and 120mcg of K2 MK-7. I don’t “feel” anything but my Garmin is clear that my RHR and VO2max have greatly improved, and yet that’s on 5-6h sleep per night. I’m also definitely less sick.

Now question remains, which of those is responsible for this?

How much could you improve your vo2max with that setup and sport?
To be clear the question is how much you can improve the Garmin's estimation of your Vo2 max, which is a different thing.
could be simply you continuing to work out consistently for a year
Here’s the thing, I don’t work out much, if at all other than cleaning the house and mowing the lawn. Not much has changed on the lifestyle side, overall.

I recently started doing the stepper and noticed the improvement compared to occasional physical activity that I inconsistently do from time to time (e.g. sports outside with the kids).

Edit: typos

I think you may have to admit there's not enough data to really come to any conclusion. But if you at least feel better, that's good!
I don’t disagree and it’s purely anecdotal.
Or not? Perhap it's the placebo effect?

Note: Not knocking it. I exercise. I take vitamins. Etc. But the more I read, the more I wonder about the mind's role in physical and mental health.

Belief is a power we're not even close to understanding.

If you can find fresh oiled packed (refrigerated, typically not salted) white anchovies, a small handful of them feels similar to taking focus enhancing drugs. They are also delicious.

By contrast, tin packed/anythong not fresh has no effect for me.

The few I can notice real effects with are;

  Iron, but I typically have low iron. Takes a while to kick in.

 Beta-alanine: I notice same day improvements in lung function

 Vitamin D: but only after a couple weeks and only if I'm low.
Besides that I've found no correlation at all, but this is super anecdotal anyway.
Low dose melatonin works within 30 minutes and its effect is very noticeable.
Taking magnesium (like in Calm) knocks me the F-out.
Iron is really a touchy one to get right, as its easy to go overboard. Good thing you know you have low iron, but if you're not sure a blood test can illuminate if a problem is there - a good "talk to your doctor first" supp.
if you could tell the difference they would be called medicines not supplements.
O-3s have been proven to reduce stress and anger! Believe that? From a study on it in Norway. So I guess regardless of what this- now 11 year old study- had to say on the issue, it is likely quite beneficial if you lack adequate amounts in your normal diet.

You can easily get adequate amounts by eating the right foods, namely fish and nuts. But you don't have to eat those things if you don't like them and can take krill oil pills or something.

Supplements aren't created equal. It is important to verify the ones you take are from legitimate brands with 3rd party testing. It's a huge industry and that means fraud.

It's also life today in the world where olive oil, maple syrup and honey are often fake. And guess what!? That fake olive oil made with rapeseed/"vegetable" oil isn't great for you either. There aren't many people making sure that stuff is real either.

This is so depressing. Is there any way to test your oils at home for authenticity?
extra virgin olive oil has a very distinctive taste and smell… guess of what?
Olive oil diluted with cheaper oils may still taste/smell like olive oil.
That's why to make fraudulent oils for retail, it is mixed together. Some of the oil is genuine and some is a lesser variety, which saves on cost of goods produced
I know people are like parrots and like to repeat the same "multivitamins are useless", but after starting it, i noticed some improvements on my digestive system and fatigue after covid. Sometimes anecdotals are useful, whatever works for you.
Whoever says that usually follow a tautological way of thinking, that is "people in perfect health don't need it" but of course having a vitamin deficiency is not having "perfect health"
Exactly, and there is far too little vitamin deficiency testing.
For most people, “X is useless” is a short way of saying:

Based on the headlines and search results I’ve skimmed, X has not been proven useful in whatever handful of demographic and contextual cross-sections have been studied. In accordance with other intuitions of my own, I extrapolate this to mean that X is useless in all demographics and contexts, that the question of value is conclusively answered in the negative, and — for some reason — it’s now important to me that you draw the same conclusion, even if you have reason to keep an open mind or conclude otherwise.

The shorthand phrasing omits all the pesky subjective, unscientific stuff as well as the weird emotional investment in other people’s thinking, so it might be helpful to just keep the long form version in mind when you hear the parrots.

Same thing happens with GABA, theoretically it should not work in a supplement form because it does not cross the BBB. And it always comes with the same "GABA is useless" advice. Except im literally dreaming again after starting taking it. Could it be a placebo? Sure. But if its working, why should i believe its useless? I know HN is probably not the right place to say it, but taking every decision in your life (even minimals one like starting take a vitamin) based on underfunded studies might lead you to miss some some improvements in your life.
I'm the kind of personality that doesn't often take those statements as gospel anyway. I've found a lot of value in life by going against the (mainstream) grain and digging in on occasion, it's certainly happened enough times that I've become super skeptical of those that come off as reactionary skeptics.

But that probably means I've wasted a lot of time proving things people just told me. It's a trade I'm happy with :)

This suggests you have a severe deficiency in something, so even the relatively small quantities in a multivitamin pill helps. Keep on taking them, of course, but maybe try to find what it is.

> after covid

There's also regression to the mean to consider here. You just naturally get better in time.

Important to point out, for those that try supplements and "don't notice anything different," sources (and types) matter.

In this case, fish oil sources matter. Oxidation, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) matter. You can filter for quality sources that meet the International Fish Oil Standards here: https://certifications.nutrasource.ca/certified-products?typ...

I am 43 years old and having been into various kinds of fitness (weight lifting, endurance cycling, etc) I've seen hundreds of supplement fads come and go, and come back. The typical progression is:

* Everyone is excited about X which improves Y

* Studies looking into X find no improvement in Y and/or some people don't notice X improve Y

* People invested in X argue that they are not timing/dosing X properly, or people do not have the right form of X

It usually descends into absurdities where you are supposed to find this rare unicorn brand that has the proper quality (for now, who knows next year!) then dose it at some exact time before bed time, but avoiding calcium or citric acid or something because that would nullify it etc etc.

Supposing the supplement even ever worked, it simply is not practically useful with such constraints. I'm not going to get a PHD in fish oil quality in order to achieve some single digit risk reduction of heart disease.

At least it's getting studied. Most fitness supplements are total garbage advertised by equally garbage people trying to make money risking other people's health.

The paper pretty much says fish oil + exercise does not increase performance ("inconclusive") and some evidence for improved fat loss. Many of the studies reviewed by the paper show evidence that heart rate is lower during "submaximal" exertion.

GP links to a list of "certified" fish oil sources, so if you wanted to at minimum test for yourself, you could just pick one from the list before you pursue your fish oil PhD.

It has to be only turmeric grown above 5000 ft elevation.
> I'm not going to get a PHD in fish oil quality in order to achieve some single digit risk reduction of heart disease.

You don't need a PhD, just read the amazon reviews for different brands.

I do not trust reviews anymore, they get gamed to a large degree.
It's difficult to imagine a less reliable information source than amazon reviews for unregulated dietary supplements.
The typical Amazon reviewer is unqualified to differentiate between shipping delays and product quality. No way I can have any expectations for subtle health changes.
Plus amazon like everything else entices users into leaving reviews...reviews should be for when someone actually has something to say, not feeling like you have to say something
This is an excellent answer and should be applied to more life scenarios.

"This faculty position requires a Ph D."

"I don't have that, but I read Amazon reviews for different brands."

From my reading it seems like a rare few people experience major benefits. Furthermore in some cases it's almost certainly placebo. Although I think certain fads like keto do have some real physical effect, but only for people with rare-ish metabolic or autoimmune disorders.

Most people experience minor if any benefit from these things. The things which really cause benefits are healthy eating and exercise in general. If you go from eating fast food and barely walking to eating whole foods and deliberately exercising 5-7 days a week, you'll almost certainly feel a major difference. What exactly caused that difference, where you crossed the line, is unclear; but it doesn't matter, IMO people should eat well and exercise reasonably anyways.

"It usually descends into absurdities where you are supposed to find this rare unicorn brand that has the proper quality (for now, who knows next year!) then dose it at some exact time before bed time, but avoiding calcium or citric acid or something because that would nullify it etc etc."

The body is a complex system. Just because our minds prefer simplicity doesn't mean our bodies will respond simply. People that are into the minutiae of nutrition and supplementation are obviously willing to do their homework to get the benefits.

"Supposing the supplement even ever worked, it simply is not practically useful with such constraints. I'm not going to get a PHD in fish oil quality in order to achieve some single digit risk reduction of heart disease."

Nobody is asking you to do anything. We live in a society where most foods are fairly processed, most supplements are bogus, most claims are BS, etc. There's an overwhelming amount of data on the benefits of Omega-3s now, and to get the benefits you need to actually take quality Omega-3s. Rancid fish oil won't give much benefit, and most fish oil is likely shit. The supplements industry isn't regulated like medicine.

I have a couple of decades on you and 100% agree with you, and I've noticed the exact same thing.

I just saw an article written somewhere today that there's a pill being created so that we don't have to exercise anymore. Just buy the pill and that's good. I'm going to do that one!

Algae based omega 3 supplements are worth a look. The algae is the actual source of omega 3s, as the fish eat the algae.

With fish based sources, there's a lot to worry about and making sure you get from a reputable source. With algae based, there's less environmental impact and less worry about what else is getting in there, etc. This brand's been good for me: https://iwilife.com/

I would only trust these certifications if there’s absolutely no money involved in getting certified. Otherwise there’s a conflict of interest.
This is a lit review. The studies cited were:

- Participants assigned to fish oil + exercise, fish oil, corn oil, and control. After 12 weeks, only fish oil + exercise resulted in significant fat loss, but no exercise only control group.

- Participants assigned to fish oil + exercise, fish oil only, exercise only, and control. After 10 weeks, no body composition differences noted between any groups, but no group was very fat to begin with.

- Fat participants assigned to either fish oil + exercise, sunflower oil + exercise, fish oil alone, or sunflower oil alone. Fish oil + exercise significantly outperformed other protocols after 12 weeks.

- Fat participants assigned to either fish oil + exercise or placebo + exercise. After 24 weeks, both groups lost about 5% of their fat without any significant difference between groups.

- I have no idea what "RBC deformability" is, but two studies assessed it by having participants perform cycling time trials in a hypobaric chamber. One study gave fish oil for 6 weeks and found a significant difference. One gave fish oil for 3 weeks and found no difference.

- Well-trained cyclists assigned to either take fish oil or olive oil for 8 weeks. Fish oil group saw significantly lower heart rates during submaximal exercise, but no difference in peak oxygen consumption.

- A 60-day study of national football players assigned to either fish oil or control. The fish oil group saw better lipid profiles at the end.

- A study of elite Australian rules football players assigned to either fish oil or sunflower oil while training normally for 5 weeks. They performed treadmill speed trials at the end. The fish oil group had lower heart rates while running, but no performance difference between groups.

Take of this what you will. The reasons usually given to take fish oil are for long-run heart health. This seems to indicate you probably won't perform better or lose more fat compared to someone who exercises the same way but doesn't take fish oil, but you may see improvements in blood lipid profile, lower heart rates, and less oxygen consumption during submaximal exertion. All of those sound like good things to me.

Thanks for summarizing this, pretty interesting. Admittedly I didn't read the study, but how were the groups assigned the oils in these studies? Raw form, or were they tasked to eat specific foods with these oils added?
Besides exercise I'm here yet again to evangelize sunlight. Getting 15-30 minutes of direct sunlight in my garden per day has changed my life. Impossible to overstate how much better I feel.
That's interesting because sunlight is also something I imagine a lot of doctors (certainly a dermatologist) will recommend avoiding. Do you wear sunscreen?
Avoid sunlight in excess is different than avoiding sunlight completely. Getting exposed to early morning light for 15-30 minutes has shown to be very beneficial.
I try to maximize Omega-3 intake, primarily by making and eating lots of Chia Seed puddings and preferring quality sourced sardines for protein.

Sorry to be subjective, but all I have is my opinion: I feel better when I maximize Omega-3 and do some other easy diet things like avoiding packaged foods and eating plenty of berries and fresh vegetables. I used to be fussier about my diet but now I just do these simple things.