I spent a year designing a low profile, minimal mechanical keyboard (electronicmaterialsoffice.com)
Hi HN,
During lockdown I took up the keyboard hobby but I couldn't find anything I liked the aesthetic of. So I set out to design my own keyboard from scratch that shunned the gamer look in favour of a more minimal, serious design.
I've built several prototypes but I would love to get some feedback from the HN community.
687 comments
[ 5.8 ms ] story [ 323 ms ] threadThere's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. Minimal keyboards are for minimalists, and people who like to show of their setups. Just like desktop vanity posts typically have speakers, yet everyone uses headphones.
Anecdotally there was a post recently on some PC subreddit asking what keyboard people preferred, and the overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards. Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad.
So, make a full version? People might think they're a bit ugly, but they're popular despite people being less willing to show off a massive keyboard.
You're right about the damn 'gamer' look though. The only good thing about the gamer look is that I will trust it has decent switches in it.
Keyboards are quite a personal thing, I think there's room for many different designs.
Add another design, because it's personal, and just the vocal minority that show off their sleek minimalist tenkeyless keyboards.
I wouldn't suggest adding too many designs at launch though, that's obviously unsustainable. But eventually sure. I'd just start with a minimal and a 100%. To cover the core bases.
This keyboard definitely has it's own style. I'm not sure I agree with it all, actually I don't, but it seems to know what it wants to be.
I own a fullsize mechanical keyboard which I (used to) use for my personal computer, but for work I use a TKL. The only reason I have even had a fullsize at home was for Blender
I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and I've never felt the need for a numpad. I'm curious now - have I been really lucky that none of my gigs have ever involved any substantial numerical data entry? Do other devs have to constantly do that so it justifies the larger keyboard (which is off-center and is awkward to use on a laptop)?
From personal experience, I'd assume that jobs that require non-trivial amount of numerical data entry are <1% of total jobs that require a keyboard. Am I totally wrong here and living in a bubble?
(I've been 100% WFH for the past 5 years and I'm not sure how that related to the numpad / no nupad discussion?)
Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly.
WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
I think the point is that the numpad isn't free if you use the mouse with the right hand. It takes space on your desk, between the actual keyboard and the mouse. This stresses the joints a bit more. You either have to grab the mouse way out to the right, or type with your hands to the left.
So if you only use the numpad "1% of your day", I'd say there are reasonable reasons, outside of vanity, for preferring a keyboard without the numpad.
Sure, if you mainly use the mouse and the keyboard single-handedly (say, like a gamer would), the numpad probably doesn't bother you.
I'm not particularly into "vanity shots" of my desk, but I absolutely curse the full-size keyboard whenever I have to use one.
The OP is asking for feedback on their product launch. For me, a full keyboard user, that was to say they should consider a full keyboard at launch cos they're super common, and often, preferred. In no way am I trying to diminish other people's preferences for smaller keyboards.
When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good.
VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far.
So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable.
Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched.
Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.
I once worked for a company making keyboard training software for bank data entry staff so I still use it if I have it (having become extremely fast using it) but I can't say I miss it when it's not there and as a 99% development user I prefer and own a mechanical keyboard without it.
Your use case doesn't mean you need a physically separate set of keys for this.
https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-key...
But as a programmer, I can't stress enough how valuable it is to type symbols without constantly reaching for the shift key. "Programmer Dvorak" does this as well, but then you have to learn a new arrangement of symbols and deal with numerals that aren't in numerical order.
A friend of mine confirmed that were she works everybody use the number pad except developers. She can't understand why they are doing that. I think we don't type numbers much. The times of BASIC with mandatory line numbers are very very far away.
Prediction to test my theory: writers and journalists use the number row too.
I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Reminds me of my dad hunting and pecking with his index finger.
Why? I don't use the number keys that often for programming. Hell, my main job is more on the sysadmin side of things, so I'd expect to type numbers more frequently than a standard programmer (think IPs and such), yet I still don't miss the numpad, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't make lose any noticeable amout of time.
I've been using the HHKB for over a year now as my "daily driver" and I absolutely love it:
* I like the feeling of the keys, and also the compactness of the keyboard layout
* I like that it connects to both my work & personal laptops over bluetooth, and I can switch between them with a single key chord
* I like that I can carry the keyboard with me to the office, and that it was simple for me to take it with me on my recent trip to Australia, so I have my preferred keyboard feeling / layout wherever I go.
Before that I was using a Unicomp Model M as my "daily driver", and while I liked it, I don't really miss the extra keys.
The vanity pic of a home desktop setup is one thing, what people use at home is another. That first context is dominated by small keyboards because it looks good for the pic. The second context is more about function, and whilst numpads are better for function I'm not going as far to say that they dominate - I don't know.
I'm just asking the OP to consider covering both options, as someone who prefers a numpad for its extra functionality. I'm not saying they should ditch the small model - I think it is great.
That way, my mouse would be closer to the action.
I have no idea why this is not a common option.
I use the numeric keyboard only for a couple of games that use it to control the camera, and that's pretty much it.
Otherwise, the numeric keyboard just uses desktop space and causes my mouse to be further away from my hand, when typing.
I don't notice the extra distance, but I think that's more to do with my desks being wide enough for it to not come up. Or maybe cos I'm lanky!
I'd definitely try out a left hand numpad given the option.
I see people use Mac and Windows laptop keyboards in professional capacity day in and day out without difficulty. Aside from that, separate USB numeric keypads are still available for those who really feel the need.
Frankly, I can't even recall anytime in the last decade I touched the numeric keypad even in environments where I had a 100% keyboard.
From your mouth to God's ear.
Love my MacBook, but for my purposes (writing code commercially for 30+ years), the bigger the keyboard, the better. Especially once it's fully configured with macros.
If the keyboard enthusiast community ever brings back reasonably-priced keyboard with the second row of function keys that are easily programmable, I'll buy one. 3270's were awesome.
I guess for data entry or numeric-intense jobs it does make sense, but not for the rest of us.
My take? 100%s are absolutely crucial for a very small slice of people. They are made to seem more popular than they are because they are the "safest" layout. Someone who needs a 100% can't use a 60%. Someone who prefers 60% can totally use a 100%. So companies make/give out 100%s, and they end up getting used a lot because of that.
Not like there aren't a lot of "Instagram keyboards" out there but a smaller keyboard leaves more room on the desk for snacks.
1) Do you have an estimate for cost and date it will ship?
2) What's the deal with the rotary encoder? How will it be used by default? How will we remap it, etc.?
Edit:
3) I would really like to have Home, Insert, and End keys. I'm not sure that's worth a change in the keyboard layout, but consider this: having three or four assignable keys. You can sell keycaps for them.
4) I would use this because I carry around a lot of stuff. Either having a low-profile keycap for the rotary encoder, or having some way to easily take it off or collapse it down would be really helpful.
As someone who often carries his keyboard around in a backpack, I think this part can break very easily.
My only other hopefully constructive criticism is without feet to raise the angle, some people might find it uncomfortable. However it's possible that being so slim and low actually makes the tilt angle less of an issue, I'm not sure!
The roller in the top right is mapped by default to the volume which is very convenient.
On a laptop the number pad is deadly because the screen and the keyboard are fused together and to have the touchpad / spacebar aligned with the axis of the body all the laptop is shifted to the right.
On desktops I seldomly use the number pad but as I can shift the keyboard to the right so I have no problem buying keyboards with it. Unfortunately it moves the mouse further away and makes it more uncomfortable (timewise) to use.
If I'll ever use a desktop full time again I'll buy a USB touchpad and keep it where it rests on a laptop and use the mouse for games, not every year.
Presumably thats configurable, but people usually use it for volume control which is quite nice to have
The ZMK firmware allows you to assign or map a wide range of keys and functions to it. The inclusion of an EC11 encoder has become a go-to trend, especially in the keyboard building community, and adopted by the established players. However, it is mostly a bit of novelty and redundant after a while and probably only gets used for the obvious media controls.
>I'll buy a USB touchpad and keep it where it rests on a laptop
You can acquire macropads in a plethora of configurations, from a single key to matrix of keys, only limited by the choice of MCU. All built using either traditional [key]switches and/or mix of encoders. The popular firmwares (QMK, KMK or ZMK) allow you to map the afore-mentioned, so you can choose to enter long IP addresses, purpose it for macros e.g Illustrator, Premiere, Blender, Ableton, Autodesk, Eagle etc., or just use it for regular cut-n-paste type jobs via the use of layers.
Very pretty otherwise, but no numpad = no interest here.
Will it work properly on Linux via bluetooth? E.g. I have a very nice mechanical keyboard from Keychron but over bluetooth it does something weird so that a hack [1] to use it in Mac mode is necessary and some key combos still don't work right for me.
On a similar note, if its firmware needs an update will I be able to do that from Linux?
It's a hard life being a Windows/Mac hater :D
[1] https://gist.github.com/andrebrait/961cefe730f4a2c41f57911e6...
I have one too and it does it over USB as well. Though keyboard shortcuts work fine for me, USB or not.
The only gripe I have with it is that the Fn key is "fake", as in it doesn't send any signal by itself, so it can't be remapped.
In fact we are considering a software toggle (e.g. FN + ESC or maybe more complicated to avoid accidentally toggling it) that has a "Win/Linux" and "macOS" mode, but I didn't get around testing that yet.
[0] https://github.com/samvel1024/kbct
Also, what is pricing like?
I do use a TypeMatrix2030, if you need some more inspirations.
The design of Enermax Aurora Micro Wireless rocks, I used it for 10+ years, although its trackball is of abysmal quality.
> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work
But overall, yeah, people split around mac/60, tkl and full. No idea why keyboard makers tend to fix on only one of them. Budget reasons - yeah, but isn’t it strange to cut off large parts of potential customers.
Found the Nuphy Air75, which is a few grams lighter but not as design-y. Clearly there must be some new, low-profile key switches hitting the market making these thin keyboards a possibility.
Anyone recommend a wrist rest?
Do you have any photographs of the real thing?
the rotary button has no value imho but I can just break this off for the sake of being constant with the mackbook keyboard layout :) cause you know muscle memory
I’d also imagine that one is prone to bump into the rotary knob if one is not fully conditioned to that keyboard.
I applaud the T-shaped cursor block and the full-sized function keys, although it would be useful to color the function keys differently in groups of four (cf. the standard PC layout).
I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
I like the idea of using different key shapes for the number row and the cursor keys for tactile recognition, although I’d have to try it to see if those shapes are any good for actual typing. I feel that slightly concave keycaps will always be the best.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_key
Whilst I always used a full keyboard with a PC, for the reasons you give, the Mac has practically all of those things mapped to cursors + meta keys so your hands don't need to move from the normal typing position. I now see the extended bit of the full keyboard as dead space that makes me reach further to get to mouse/trackpad. But as you say, everyone is different.
I wonder if that could be partially mitigated through the use of a dedicated space for a YubiKey
I've been using the HHKB keyboard [1] for over a year now, and I absolutely love it. You simply have to re-map your muscle memory for "PgUp" to be a chord (involving the function key naturally). I'd argue it's probably faster as a whole, because your hand has less distance to travel.
> I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
I haven't had a problem switching between the HHKB and other keyboards; but in any case, the portability and the fact that it can have multiple connections means you can just use the same keyboard everywhere.
[1] https://www.hhkeyboard.com/uk/products/hybrid-type-s
Edited to add the reference
For an example, I noticed that I habitually type & with only my right hand, twisting my wrist to press shift and 7 at the same time, which is awkward and painful if I do it too often.
The solution being to use the left pinky for the shift key and the right middle for the 7/&.
I agree the less chords the better, but for what's left, making sure chords are either ergonomic by themselves, or two handed, is a good way to keep typing for longer with less injury.
Ok, more accurately I figured out that it would involve writing nontrivial amounts of C, and I gave up. You can do anything with QMK if you're determined.
I'll bite; how useful is the Menu key really? Is there something in your workflow that is benefitted by having it? Totally agree with Home/End/Insert/Delete being required on any keyboard I use.
I also use it every now and then to change things up when I feel the RSI sneaking.
While on the topic of what keys are on the keyboard and while thinking of Fn keys, I really, really, really wish that keyboards would give a key code for Fn+___ for each and every non-modifier key. It’s absurd that such a simple opportunity for good macro-capability is discarded, and you can only use Fn with the few keys (on laptops, commonly around 16–20) the manufacturer deigned to hook up (e.g. Fn+F1 as XF86AudioMute, Fn+F7 as XF86BrightnessUp, Fn+Space as PrintScreen, Fn+Left as Home, that kind of thing) and the rest are just swallowed in the keyboard firmware. How is it that as far as I can tell no one has done such an obvious and obviously useful thing?
Unfortunately a friend spilled coffee on mine, and it's hard to justify buying another one at >£100. And it's often out of stock whenever I do manage to justify it to myself!
[Vortex Race 3]: https://spotonpccases.co.uk/product/vortex-race-3-mechanical...
https://rama.works/updates/2020/4/24/m50-a-pcb-inventory-2-b...
But I do strongly prefer having 2-3 keys for each thumb to use, rather than just having 1 big spacebar.
The traditional keyboard standard may not be perfect but it used to be standard. I had muscle memory that served me. Now my client laptop, employer laptop, personal laptop, home gaming/photo desktop, media computer, etc all want to have wildly different, completely unique layouts, usually with massive compromises. "you just have to get used to it" assumes I'll have a single keyboard for prolonged period of time but that is simply not the case for me. I need the dedicated home/insert/pgup/pgdwn block because I use it every minute. I need function keys in easy blocks of four so I don't hunt for f5 or f9. Layout should be a solved problem, or let's work on making a better layout standard, but each keyboard having its own layout is a personal nightmare.
Other than that, a couple more keys, like for example a Hyper key or a higher-level Shift would be very welcome.
One thing I think helps: I've had blank keycaps for the better part of the last decade. There's at least no visual cue saying this key does that thing.
And now, I switch between my primary advantage layout to laptop keyboards (I have a few) all the time. I think all the switching between layouts just makes you better at whatever. I'm a pretty fast typer wherever I end up and getting used to a new environment is kindof fun.
I would totally buy this keyboard if i was still using a standardish layout. I love the advantage so much i can never go back.
If you are switching truly different layouts daily, are fully efficient and have instant muscle memory with all, and never lose a moment consciously or subconsciously looking for a key, absolutely more power to you. I do not work like that. Having to hunt for Home key when I want to hit control-home drives me bonkers. Not having space between f4 and f5 is as silly as red turning lights - strictly worse for no actual benefit. Half height laptop up and down arrows are abomination upon IT Gods. And yes I've been a grouchy old man since I was a teenager :->
My laptop has Home/End/PgUp/PgDn as the Fn function on the Arrow keys, and its actually really good. So good I've actually setup other machines with the same shortcuts wherever I can.
There is a sweet spot of the number of keys available for use without modifier keys, and that sweet spot may be different for everyone, but it is closer to 100 for me.
After all, you already do all other cursor manipulation with a combination of the arrow keys and Ctrl/Alt/Shift. From a muscle memory perspective, having the 'beginning/end of line' and 'previous/next page' actions as just another modifier is much more natural than having to use an entirely separate set of keys for this.
As someone who recently switched to an Ortholinear layout, it's not nearly as bad as you think. I got messed up when switching back to a standard layout for the first maybe week or so. After that I can switch between either layout with absolutely no problem. While you may be different, you're probably underselling your own muscle memory.
> I won’t buy a keyboard without separate Delete and Backspace keys, without Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert keys, and without a dedicated Menu key [0], for any kind of serious work.
This probably depends on the work you do. I've found myself using those keys all more often and faster when I bind them to alpha keys with a modifier. As someone who types all day in VIM, I can bind Home/End/Pgup/PgDn/etc. to keys that have analogous functions (i/a/u/d respectively), which has been great for me.
Initially I experienced some difficulty getting used to the lack of cursor keys, delete, escape. But with a short bit of time (couple months) I find I don't miss them anymore, and in fact appreciate the closer vicinity of these keys now.
However, the key thing is good layers, and buttons that can access them. The left half of my space bar gets to my main layer.
It's so good that I now find it annoying to move my hand to get to the cursor keys.
60% also means the mouse is a lot closer for me.
I don't get the appeal of low profile, and these days I think I'd want a split.
I know you're only at prototype stage, but visually I'd say the giant numbers are a bit jarring, and having some but not all of the Fxx labels displaced from centre on the function keys depending on whether there's a symbol there too looks a bit strange.
You'll have a hard time pitching this to some "hard core keyboardists", but don't forget that this keyboard is for you, not for them. If you don't want an ergonomic layout, or split and tenting, or an ANSII enter key, or Cherry keys, then so be it. This looks like a great project and a very good implementation.
- The numbers are too large, they break the consistency of typography.
- The rotary encoder sticks out too much. Rotate & move to the end of the enclosure, and mostly occlude it, like a mouse scroll wheel?
- I would prefer Page Up/Down and numpad.
While I was considering it saw some other Logitech keyboards that had a knob for volume control/etcetera, which I feel like it would be a much more sane approach regarding the low profile aspect than this 'rotary encoder' thing. Also, as someone said, some lateral buttons would've been awesome.
I like this design (though I feel like the typography choice was terribly unfortunate) and I can see the appeal for the low profile. But also agree that home/end/pgup/pgdown keys are a must.
Though for some reason when I tried the Bluetooth connection with the Mx keys it had a noticeable lag for each key press, versus the instant response with the propietary wireless connection with the dongle. However the usb-c alternative connection with this one seems like it's a great thing to have.
[0]: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q6-qmk-custom-mec...
USB Bluetooth dongles fluctuate a lot too, I think it depends on the chipset used (and it's software stack).