Cotton serves as a pretty potent metaphor for the American audience. I wonder what the perception of Xinjiang is like for Han Chinese. Do they see the people of Xinjiang as being Chinese? Do Chinese understand euphemisms like "reeducation" for what they really are? Is there Stockholm syndrome causing the Han to be protective of their shared oppressors?
Have spoken to some Chinese engineers in the Bay Area and most see Uyghurs as terrorists (they will point to terrorist attacks) and do not know about (do not believe) the camps or oppression.
Collective punishment is fascism and considering CPP indoctrination, I can see how the Chinese might see it as a legitimate form of social recourse. Thanks for the insight!
I guess it was the Stockholm Syndrome answer all along.
What's the CPP? You mean CCP, Chinese Communist Party? And it's fascism at the same time?
Like if I capture Osama bin Laden alive and take him to a camp in eg Morocco to make him pay for his sins, I can't ask him to do ten push-ups? Like he designs the murder of 2,988 people and I can't squeeze 10 push-ups out of him?
Him in particular. The specific unique Wahhabi who committed the terrorism, like he matches the videos he released claiming responsibility, him. Ten pushups?
Many justify a long-term, sometimes subtle (even vague) concept that has been codified through years of education, culture, propaganda, and tangible massive on-the-ground benefits. That concept and the reason people on the east coast (Hans) support exploiting, manipulating, and projecting power on the west (Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, etc.) is determined by geopolitics. In one case, China's water resources and long-term economic stability depend on controlling the highlands in the west. The rest is just fabricated reasoning sugarcoating their strategy to cover this strategic vulnerability. A typical Han Chinese with roots in the developed east might not think in these terms transparently. Still, it has years of education and the harsh reality of its region to transform this into an assortment of (un)justified reasoning. They need it to control and secure their stability.
This has also been the case in many other regions, for example, the Middle East, where such harsh geopolitical realities have been codified in different nationalistic and sectarian fractions.
I don’t think American prison labor qualifies as “jobs” since it doesn’t even pay close to minimum wage, which is a ridiculously low bar to begin with.
What is the fundamental different between incarceration and penal labor? How can you be so strongly against the latter and not the former?
I would happy to see the abolition of penal labor, but the widespread attempt to cast it as “slavery” feels hyperbolic - especially in comparison to the reality of chattel slavery.
They are literally forced to do unpaid labor. There are also prison jobs that do pay, but extremely low amounts and those are generally optional. Prisons do also offer volunteer work, it being voluntary makes it not slavery.
Incarceration on the other hand is a different topic altogether and I think the US system is incredibly harmful and creates an environment that produces recidivism. The Nordic system of rehabilitation is far better.
America got over imprisoning people for their ethnicity 80 years ago. And it's never systematically imprisoned or punished people because of their religious beliefs.
So I would say that's why it would be different in China.
> America got over imprisoning people for their ethnicity 80 years ago.
Is that actually true though? I don't mean this as a dig against the US, but I do feel like there's a disproportionate amount of specific ethnicities in prisons.
It's not the same thing. Not by a long shot. They are not in prison for the crime of being a minority. There are no US laws criminalizing behavior according to ethnicity or religion, nor could there be.
You are equating state-sanctioned cultural genocide vs an imperfect justice system with a racist legacy. I could go on, but I really don't need to.
I see that you've announced that your understanding of the world is revealed to be deep by the joke you made regarding the religion-based murder, organ extraction, and jailing of millions of people, in something the UN describes as a genocide and a holocaust.
Typically, if you have to congratulate yourself on how deep you've shown yourself to be, that's because nobody else will; if nobody else will, typically, that's because you actually aren't.
I wish I could make commentary regarding the original statement, but HN was sufficiently disgusted with you to remove it.
Your understanding of the world is rather primitive if you think there is systemic mass murder ongoing where there isn't any. After countless investigations have come up short I don't know why people like you continue to spout mistruths. The propaganda you have been fed is hard to see past indeed.
Oh my, my understanding of the world is primitive if I believe the video evidence, the formal position of the UN, the formal position of NATO, and the formal position of more than 120 countries.
Why? Because an anonymous person from the internet whose entire account is stumping against the United States and for China says so, and denies that real evidence exists.
Okay, buddy
.
> I don't know why people like you continue to spout mistruths.
This sentence is also commonly said by vaccine deniers, homeopaths, chemtrail people, and people who pretend that Tianemen Square didn't happen.
Your lack of knowing isn't important to me. Keep it to yourself, please.
.
> The propaganda you have been fed is hard to see past indeed.
Oh, the poor thing.
It's literally every active government on Earth, and the UN, and he still thinks it's propaganda.
So difficult to be a mouthpiece these days
Anyway, nobody's being convinced by your rambling denial. This is my third post in a row asking you to stop wasting my time.
I see that you're stuck in denying the evidence that's easily available, pleading with me to do the evidence gathering that you refuse to do and are responsible for regarding your position, and engaging in an ever increasing series of personal attacks, to pretend that the Uyhghur holocaust isn't real.
The worst part is, now that you're provided evidence, you aren't going to admit that any of it is real, and you're going to try to explain why you, an anonymous person on the internet, are more trustworthy than the world's governments and human rights agencies, even though you've now spent days lying and claiming they didn't say what they actually said
If a third party reader decides to look things up, remember to try spelling it "uighur" and "uyghur," and remember to try both holocaust and genocide. By example, the US called it a genocide, but the UN called it a holocaust, and you have to use the right term for the right speaker.
The US currently believes that number to be 4.1 million. That is to say, if you just take the people in China imprisoned for their ethnicity, and made them a country, it'd be larger than 78 other countries, larger than Croatia, Uruguay, Mongolia, Lithuania, Macau, Luxembourg, Qatar, or Iceland.
Larger than (non-metro) Chicago and Houston put together.
Rand.org? Radio Free Asia? Two countries that will do the US's bidding? the UN? How are these reputable sources on the topic of economic enemies of the current global hegemony? Are you sure you understand what kind of can of worms you might be opening? Including one of stirring up racist hatred against 1/3 of the planet's population?
Again, the UN has never declared that there is a holocaust or a genocide in Xinjiang. None of your sources, which clearly you have not bothered to read in depth, say that.
Show me the evidence of a holocaust. You cannot because there is no evidence.
I really wish you would take the time to learn what the words you are using actually mean rather than spam links by Radio Free Asia and Adrian Zenz who have proved themselves propagandists.
When you realize that they're being murdered and their organs harvested, and that you said this about a time when millions of people were in mass ethnic concentration camps
What is the alternative to prisoner labor? Just have prisoners sit and do nothing? A lot of people who aren't in prison rarely ever get a chance to do that.
Prison labor is not the same as slavery. That is one of those poisonous radical ideas, it's on par with "muslims did 9/11 therefore all muslims are terrorists"
Prison labor is slavery. Did you ever stop and consider the peverse incentives inherent in forcing prisoners to work for the profits of a private prison?
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[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 87.7 ms ] threadI guess it was the Stockholm Syndrome answer all along.
Like if I capture Osama bin Laden alive and take him to a camp in eg Morocco to make him pay for his sins, I can't ask him to do ten push-ups? Like he designs the murder of 2,988 people and I can't squeeze 10 push-ups out of him?
Him in particular. The specific unique Wahhabi who committed the terrorism, like he matches the videos he released claiming responsibility, him. Ten pushups?
There has to be integrity.
This has also been the case in many other regions, for example, the Middle East, where such harsh geopolitical realities have been codified in different nationalistic and sectarian fractions.
Do you mean to ask who pays their prisoners more for their labor?
I would happy to see the abolition of penal labor, but the widespread attempt to cast it as “slavery” feels hyperbolic - especially in comparison to the reality of chattel slavery.
Incarceration on the other hand is a different topic altogether and I think the US system is incredibly harmful and creates an environment that produces recidivism. The Nordic system of rehabilitation is far better.
So I would say that's why it would be different in China.
Is that actually true though? I don't mean this as a dig against the US, but I do feel like there's a disproportionate amount of specific ethnicities in prisons.
That is what imprisoning people FOR their ethnicity means.
Yeah, no. Minorities are still being disproportionately imprisoned.
You are equating state-sanctioned cultural genocide vs an imperfect justice system with a racist legacy. I could go on, but I really don't need to.
Then I read comments like this and I immediately wish they would increase the requirement.
Typically, if you have to congratulate yourself on how deep you've shown yourself to be, that's because nobody else will; if nobody else will, typically, that's because you actually aren't.
I wish I could make commentary regarding the original statement, but HN was sufficiently disgusted with you to remove it.
Why? Because an anonymous person from the internet whose entire account is stumping against the United States and for China says so, and denies that real evidence exists.
Okay, buddy
.
> I don't know why people like you continue to spout mistruths.
This sentence is also commonly said by vaccine deniers, homeopaths, chemtrail people, and people who pretend that Tianemen Square didn't happen.
Your lack of knowing isn't important to me. Keep it to yourself, please.
.
> The propaganda you have been fed is hard to see past indeed.
Oh, the poor thing.
It's literally every active government on Earth, and the UN, and he still thinks it's propaganda.
So difficult to be a mouthpiece these days
Anyway, nobody's being convinced by your rambling denial. This is my third post in a row asking you to stop wasting my time.
> the video evidence, the formal position of the UN, the formal position of NATO, and the formal position of more than 120 countries.
Literally none of this is true. The UN has not found any evidence of death camps or a holocaust so you have been misinformed.
I beg you to actually do some reading on this topic because the things you are spewing are just embarrassing.
Honestly, you have such a childlike understanding of the world it's sad. Just utterly brainwashed.
The worst part is, now that you're provided evidence, you aren't going to admit that any of it is real, and you're going to try to explain why you, an anonymous person on the internet, are more trustworthy than the world's governments and human rights agencies, even though you've now spent days lying and claiming they didn't say what they actually said
For anyone who would be confused by astroturfing this obvious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
It's really very easy to find.
Here's a reference to the US declaration: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-declares-chinas-treatment-o...
Here's a reference to the UN declaration: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-suppression-o...
If a third party reader decides to look things up, remember to try spelling it "uighur" and "uyghur," and remember to try both holocaust and genocide. By example, the US called it a genocide, but the UN called it a holocaust, and you have to use the right term for the right speaker.
Here are the forced labor camps: https://www.vox.com/2020/7/28/21333345/uighurs-china-internm...
Here's a US diplomat saying the US knows there are more than a million people in the camps and believes it's about 3 million, in may of 2019: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-concentrationca...
The US currently believes that number to be 4.1 million. That is to say, if you just take the people in China imprisoned for their ethnicity, and made them a country, it'd be larger than 78 other countries, larger than Croatia, Uruguay, Mongolia, Lithuania, Macau, Luxembourg, Qatar, or Iceland.
Larger than (non-metro) Chicago and Houston put together.
When the anti-American angle inevitably comes up as a substitute for admitting to the evidence, here's Britain saying it too: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
Or Australia: https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/
Or the UN: https://www.dw.com/en/new-report-slams-china-for-systematic-...
Here's the G7: https://www.rand.org/blog/2021/04/upcoming-summit-an-opportu...
Video of the Dabancheng site: ...
Show me the evidence of a holocaust. You cannot because there is no evidence.
I really wish you would take the time to learn what the words you are using actually mean rather than spam links by Radio Free Asia and Adrian Zenz who have proved themselves propagandists.
Don't astroturf. Everyone can see that you're a new account that only speaks positively of China and negatively of the US.
Again, there is no evidence and 'we've all seen it' is a bunch of BS.
Prison labor is not the same as slavery. That is one of those poisonous radical ideas, it's on par with "muslims did 9/11 therefore all muslims are terrorists"
Also, nice strawman.
A- You're doing X which is inhuman
B- Common! C is also do it, B has done in the past as well *So we can do it too* and *magically* that's get OK *as consequence*.
This is a pure fallacy.