How about sports themed prizes? Not everybody enjoys football, (or even agrees on what it is!) so how horribly divisive of someone to offer season tickets as a prize for a raffle, eh? Or you could just sell it off later to someone who values it more.
Perhaps we need to be more accepting, individually, of the joys of others which we do not share. Even if you don't drink yeast are easy, fun, and rewarding pets: perhaps the brewers' discussions need more microbiology geekery.
No beer, kosher-only foods, no golf prizes (no sports prizes at all), no family prizes (I’m single!), no prizes for imdividuals (I have a family!), etc. etc. etc.
I bet the person in Oprah's audience who doesn't drive when she gave everyone cars was super justified in being angry that Oprah just assumed she'd want a car with inherent resale value.
out of curiosity i looked that one up. apparently they actually tried to select an audience where everyone needed a car. and they also offered cash for anyone who really didn't want the car. the only remaining problem was that the recipients ended up having to pay a gift tax which some weren't happy about.
I recall reading a similar thing, taxes aren't fun, but you could always sell the car, and pocket the extra. It's just a matter of winning something by chance and taking issue as though it was something deserved.
If it's a big enough group then the obvious solution is to have a selection of prizes - the ones that don't get chosen can be reused for the next event.
Having said that I'm curious why a beer dispenser mightn't be useful for soft drinks too?
I totally agree here. It only becomes noticeable when you don't drink, but when you do, it's painfully obvious the bias inherent in people around alcohol consumption.
I have no issue with people drinking around me and will happily go to a bar and order a virgin mixed drink, but when major team-building activities revolve around drug consumption, it starts to become a bigger issue. Not to mention the fact that alcohol lowers inhibitions and makes people do really stupid things -- like make inappropriate jokes or much worse.
The lowered inhibitions are a significant part of the appeal of alcohol for fostering closer relationships. There are alternative team-building approaches, but each one will alienate one group or another; for example, a sport will have a negative impact on those with mobility or co-ordination issues.
depending on alcohol for team building sounds like the worst idea ever.
i don't want to be friends with people if their ability to develop friendship depends on alcohol. actually, i find it deceptive. i want to be friends with the real person. not the drunk person. it's dishonest. it's telling me that this person doesn't actually like me, and it's only the alcohol that makes them friendly. for an introvert who already has difficulty trusting people and making friends, this makes it worse, because it's a friendship that can't be trusted.
as for alternatives for team building. there are plenty of activities that are welcoming. board games for example. popular in europe. good for introverts too because you can focus on the game and you are not forced participate in random discussion topics that you can't contribute to. among tech people a fun-hackathon. otherwise food always works. picnic or bbq was always popular when it happened at tech conferences.
Every alternative for team-building is a trade-off; TANSTAAFL. "Welcoming" is arbitrary; board games disadvantage people without 20/20 vision, and for people who find them boring, or dislike games based on chance. Food doesn't always work, picnics and BBQs are fraught with issues. I can cite problems with every single example you can come up with.
"depending on alcohol for team building sounds like the worst idea ever."
I assume that this was intended as hyperbole, but your argument would be much more persuasive if you fairly described the idea you're opposed to, along with its benefits, then describe why your solution, while having its own issues, is superior. Capitalization wouldn't hurt either.
Sure, I agree that a lot of people dislike beer, carbonated beverages have a noticeable and negative impact on me. Food presents allergy (milk, nuts, and other allergens), religious proscription (beef/pork), a variety of health (organic) and morality (veganism) issues, in addition to everyone having differing tastes. Food is really quite similar to beer in many ways, though the allergy issues are worse for some of us, and provides opportunity for embarrassment too (stained shirts and the like).
I'm not saying that beer is the best tool for team-building, I'm just saying it has benefits, and just like every other alternative, trade-offs.
What is it with people who don't drink being particularly disparaging about people who do and how and why they use it?
"depending on alcohol for team building sounds like the worst idea ever.
i don't want to be friends with people if their ability to develop friendship depends on alcohol. actually, i find it deceptive. i want to be friends with the real person. not the drunk person. it's dishonest. it's telling me that this person doesn't actually like me, and it's only the alcohol that makes them friendly. for an introvert who already has difficulty trusting people and making friends, this makes it worse, because it's a friendship that can't be trusted."
People aren't "depending" on alcohol, they're using it. Getting wasted is not a requirement of drinking alcohol. Alcohol reduces inhibitions. In small amounts it's enough to make a person feel less like they're going to sound stupid if they try to talk to new people. It's not deceptive any more than not opening up to others because you're anxious is "deceptive".
You are not better than other people because you don't drink.
i don't have a problem with my friends who drink (or anyone else) (as long as they don't get drunk, but that never happened when i was around so i have no practical experience with that).
i have a problem if someone claims that they can't talk to me or they can't enjoy our time together unless they had a drink.
the possible reasons why you can't talk to me makes me uncomfortable.
Alcohol reduces inhibitions. In small amounts it's enough to make a person feel less like they're going to sound stupid if they try to talk to new people.
yes, and that seriously bothers me. do you think that i don't feel uncomfortable talking to new people?
this creates an imbalance. now you are comfortable because you had a drink, and i am still not because i won't or can't. that doesn't work. now you are no longer able to sense my discomfort because you don't sense your own.
if we are both equally uncomfortable we could find a way to deal with that. instead i have to face your uninhibited self and feel like i want to run away.
some people are naturally less inhibited. that can be difficult, but if they are perceptive and considerate it can work out. i fear that alcohol also makes you less perceptive, so that is unlikely to work.
>when major team-building activities revolve around drug consumption
Drinking something/taking a drug at an event doesn't make the entire event revolve around that. Just because an event takes place at a brewery doesn't mean that non-brewery-related discussion is not allowed. The same can be said about literally any personal preference you have.
Do you talk about the coffee station at work in similar fashion? Do you talk about how the work place provides you with stimulant drugs in order to boost your productivity?
More people die yearly from Alcohol than from all illicit drugs combined. It's addictive on par with other highly addictive drugs. It's not the same as caffeine.
I don't share the author's experience of being persuaded to drink. I stopped drinking for a good couple years and every time I went out with friends (edit: or work events with coworkers), no one cared who drank and who didn't. If you just had some sparkling water in hand, or even regular water, no one asked about it.
Aside: In fact, with coworkers I definitely did not drink whatsoever, even when I resumed drinking generally with friends, because I don't know what I might inadvertently blurt out, which might happen with even a couple drinks.
I've been to work/professional events where most people have a drink in their hand, whatever that may be. I've never been to a work/professional event that was "centered around alcohol". (My experience is in the tech industry in Silicon Valley, San Francisco, and SoCal. I realize this may be different in other cultures.)
I went to a lot of pub lunches while I was there. Rarely, if ever, do I remember drinking at a pub lunch. People go because they have fast lunch specials. You go to the same place at night and it's a bar.
Englishmen here - some people have a beer at lunch and some people don't. I usually don't, especially if I have a meeting in the afternoon. I've never seen anyone comment on it either way though. The most that'll happen is if there's just 2 or 3 of you going to the pub for lunch and someone might ask "are you guys drinking?" just to figure out if they want to or not but that's about it.
It always makes me laugh when American's experience this for the first time. It's all across the UK, not just England. It really makes you realise the cultural differences despite speaking the same language. That said, I've never seen anyone put under pressure to drink around work events or lunches, I usually lean towards not drinking myself.
And any bartender will happily make you something that LOOKs like a drink if you feel you need to keep up appearances (ie fruit juice with garnish, or sparkling water with a lime)
Sparkling water with a lime is a great go-to, just looks like any boring old G&T. Nobody even asks what you're drinking, in my experience, so you don't even have to lie to fit in.
Hydrating, cheap, and tasty. When I'm someplace that doesn't have decent beer on tap (my preferred beverage), that's my go-to. I enjoy the idea that I'm paying ~$5 for a whole night of sparkling limes while others spend many multiples that on a night of crappy mixers.
On a related note… in any place where the tonic comes out of a soda gun, get a gin and soda and not a g&t… Tastes way better than gun tonic. Also no sugar, whereas tonic has quite a bit
Same here, stopped drinking alcohol years ago, switched to non-alcoholic beers. There is a huge choice of them everywhere and local pubs are required by law to have them on offer.
Re social drinking, never felt any peer pressure, not now, not before. "The field where I grow my f*cks is barren". Don't care what others think about it.
In my many years since graduating college, I've never known anyone who would think less of someone for not drinking alcohol. At most it would have been a passing curiosity. Designated drivers have been a thing for decades. Non-alcoholic drink options are available everywhere. And complaining that a door prize isn't something you can use is ridiculous.
> Most folks don’t understand the effect of peer pressure on those who don’t drink or are in an early stage of recovery from alcohol problems.
It sounds to me like the author is more frustrated that other people like to talk about things that he's just not interested in when they're out socializing. The harsh reality, though, is that if you don't have something more interesting or charming for them, then yes, you're going to get ignored. That's true whether they're talking about brewing beer, smoking weed, or sports. Don't waste your time at social events you don't enjoy. Or be proactive, and join the social committee to help with the planning.
I’ve avoided work events basically my entire career and have not had issues with career advancement or development. I reject the idea that they’re somehow mandatory in tech.
I have had a different experience in tech consulting. Networking was an explicitly required part of the job, and it was a category in my performance evaluation.
Absolutely, Jobs that are external-customer facing will require and evaluate you on your social skills. Ordering a rum and coke without the rum is a social skill. Whatever you do with your coworkers, you should do it with grace, or they'll rightly suspect that you're not using grace with your customers
As a drinker, I've occasionally ordered a non-alcoholic drink while everyone else was drinking because I had an early morning, had somewhere else to go, or simply wasn't in the mood. I've received pushback, for certain, on that - Alcoholics do get offended when you don't drink with them - but the one incident that ruffled me was odd enough that it stands out in my mind, and while I've certainly gotten "Just one" a few times, I've never felt unduly pressured to drink at work.
To put it really simply - I'd bet that the OP's author has experience what he's claiming, but I think he needs to get out of dodge because it is concentrated and you can just go work for companies that are more friendly.
> That’s not what the parent comment implied. It implied any tech career required this.
No, that's not what it implied. Only if you give the least charitable interpretation, rather than the most charitable interpretation.
There are work events that are unavoidable for many people. For all people? No, of course not. There are exceptions to every generalization. But let's not pretend that work events are unimportant to careers, generally speaking.
Would you not say that networking is important, in general? The article author was specifically talking about a networking event.
My point was that these events are not necessarily about pure personal enjoyment, and finding them disagreeable in some way is not necessarily a reason to avoid them, if it's important to your career that you attend. That's not a "waste of time".
> I've never known anyone who would think less of someone for not drinking alcohol.
Eh, I don't know how "wasted/buzzed" people get a professional social outings but I think after about 2 drinks there's a pretty good disconnect between "I'm buzzed and you're stone sober and the conversation just isn't on the same level as if you were drinking instead"
A lot of people will assume if you won't drink alcohol that you have a problem with overindulgence, not knowing your limits - not that you have some puritanical avoidance on principle.
Or you could notice that author's last name, which might indicate another reason that he doesn't drink (not that I know that this is the reason for his choice).
This isn't a good signal imo. The world is undergoing a lot of cultural mixing at the moment so making the assumption that someones last name indicates their cultural participation is a dangerous one. For instance, I have a very French name but I also have near zero French cultural implications.
Eh, I think from a Bayesian standpoint its valid to think that if somebody has a last name that correlates with a group that doesn't drink, and that person also argues against drinking that they're more likely to be a member of that group.
But that's the key part "more likely", and not something definitive. It's the thinking that that inference is definitive is where it crosses the line from trying to be understanding about another culture to becoming a racist argument.
I agree though that its definitely flirting with that dangerous assumption.
That's why I said "not that I know". The parent comment said that people may speculate that someone who refuses to drink might be alcoholic, but there are also people who don't drink for religious reasons, obviously. In any case, people can decline a drink for any reason at all.
Those aren't the only two options. Either they have poor impulse control or are "puritanical"? That might not be the best way to conceptualize non-drinkers and appreciate the point the author is making.
eh, as someone who was one and has been surrounded by wreckheads my entire life, this is absolutely not my first thought if someone doesn't want a drink or whatever. Also, compound cultural inputs - I'd full understand someone with a non-European family name not wanting to imbibe booze.
I'm perfectly ok with someone not wanting a drink. I wouldn't want to go out on the piss with them, mind, and I fully understand and respect the fact they'd not want to anyway... .
There's always a chance someone isn't going to like/be interested in what's going to be discussed, unless you stick purely to work, in which case why even be out socializing with coworkers?
> I've never known anyone who would think less of someone for not drinking alcohol. At most it would have been a passing curiosity.
This is subject to some major sampling bias. Drinkers cluster with drinkers. Non-drinkers with non-drinkers. For example, I've noticed that people tend to either know very few alcoholics or heavy drinkers personally, or almost everyone they know has an alcohol problem to some degree.
"Thinking less of someone for not drinking alcohol" would fairly describe much of my social circle. I've witnessed the abstinent be subjected to some remarkable barrages.
Oh, you don't? Is it a health issue? It's not? Then why? You don't like it? Why not? Do you think you're better than us? Are you a recovering alcoholic? No? Then what's the problem? Aren't you perfect! Why are you so uptight? Why are you trying to ruin the fun? He bought the drinks for you, it's really rude to refuse. Don't you want to have a good time? Why are you such a buzzkill? Here, try this drink (that I spiked without telling you). Yeah, there's booze in it. What's your problem?
When nearly everyone drinks heavily, and they view that as normal, then deviance from that is perceived as just that, social deviance.
It's certainly no hard binary! But drinking behaviours are socially determined, so unsurprisingly it does tend to cluster:
> People were 50 percent more likely to be heavy drinkers if one of their friends or relatives drank heavily. However, if a friend-of-a-friend drank heavily, people were only 36 percent more likely to do so, and if a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend drank heavily, they were 15 percent more likely to do so.
> The pattern worked in reverse, too, although it wasn't as pronounced. People with a friend or relative who didn't drink were 29 percent more likely to be teetotalers themselves.
> The quantity of relationships mattered as well. The more connections to drinkers--or nondrinkers--a person had, the more powerful the effect was. People "surrounded by" heavy drinkers were 70 percent more likely to drink heavily themselves, while those with many abstinent friends and relatives were 50 percent more likely to also abstain, according to the study.
It may be different in professional settings. In old country, drinking was effectively expected for several reasons including 'establishing trust'. Amusingly, anecdotally, I heard similar stories about China and its culture regarding drinking.
In US the only time I even heard of any kind of peer pressure was from first year college kids, who have not yet had a chance to explore their new found lack of parental supervision.
china is much worse in that regard. i was never subjected to it, but i could observe it. lot's of drinking.generally business decisions aren't made until after a big dinner with everyone with lots of alcohol. not everyone does it though, but it is considered normal and sometimes expected. they may not pressure anyone to drink, but it could affect their decisions later.
> Non-alcoholic drink options are available everywhere.
Ehh, they're pretty bad in the general case. I went to probably the top 1% of bars in the country recently (in The Shard in London). The entire sum of non-alcoholic options was 4 mocktails, all pretty good and very, very sweet (between us we tried 3).
There was one solitary NA beer: Peroni. This is probably one of the very worst NA beers I've ever had, after the Beck's one.
Probably they have the usual options of sugar/aspartame bombs like Coke too, but they're not on the menu.
If you're not into sugar, not drinking alcohol is extremely boring a lot of the time.
Which is sad, because there are actually some quite nice NA beers, wines and "spirits" (herbal extractions) now.
But then again, they probably don't actually want non-drinkers there as they can't sell them outrageously expensive drinks (the most expensive NA drink is £12.50, the champagne menu goes to 4 figures).
I'm a non-drinker (but am a passionate meat eater for later context). I agree that I don't feel like anyone has ever thought less about me because of my non-drinking status.
I've also won prizes that are alcohol related. The perspective I wanted to share is that I look at this as a free opportunity to delight someone on my team that enjoys alcohol. I don't try to get the conference to drop them. Instead I look at it as a way that I can delight someone.
I would hate that we reduce everything down to the point where the only thing we can give out is glasses of water because that's the only thing everyone can agree on.
Its ok that we have different likes and tastes. Don't guilt people that they like beer. It's ok, you can not like beer and they can like beer. And you haven't lost anything by winning a prize you don't like -- instead you've gained an opportunity to make someone else happy. Just pay it forward and the next time the universe might grant you a steak dinner instead. :)
> While it was a networking event for a tech event, almost all the discussions revolved around different types of alcohol - taste, brewing techniques, etc.
Other alternatives would be movies or shows you might not watch, books you haven't read, coffee but you don't drink coffee, BBQ but you are vegan, etc...
> Other alternatives would be movies or shows you might not watch, books you haven't read, coffee but you don't drink coffee, BBQ but you are vegan, etc...
At least that's a variety of different topics. "But somehow, the topic of alcohol seems to overpower all other topics in networking socials."
I'm sure they had more than one shared interest. There's certainly tech, for example, given that it's a tech conference. But the focus tends to be on alcohol when everyone at the event is handed a beer ticket.
On the post, author mention they were discussing brewing techniques, etc. That means they are enthusiasts, and not just someone that's drinking because they were handed beer tickets.
Agree that tech is a shared interest, but I talk and think about code during all work day. Don't wanna bond over that also when I have something else to talk about
I'd love to hear about some alternatives. I still default to "let's go to a bar" as the hangout thing to do, but TBH I'm getting kind of tired of alcohol. I'm just not really sure what other options are.
Bars are great: you get a small table for your conversation; being a little loud and bawdy is fine (no kids); it's a casual drop-in-drop-out atmosphere where the bill is already split. Where do you get that kind of atmosphere other than a bar? Genuinely asking, I'd love to have another social option.
I don't drink and I don't go to bars because I have a hearing problem and the background noise makes conversation basically impossible.
And I still I have no idea what most people would find acceptable instead of going to a bar.
All of the alternatives I can think of involve inviting people who are almost strangers into your house (or going to theirs) before you get to know them. This obviously causes some tense situations sometimes.
It's hard to find a sport that everyone wants to do (or can do), but you could try minigolf or pickle ball and see who wants to do it.
Online movie night has been a big hit with our friends group, and I could see it working for a group of coworkers, too. Teleparty is a pretty easy Chrome plugin, but everyone needs to have the same streaming service like Netflix or Disney+. I vaguely remember someone at work trying to stream a video to the group over Meet, but it went poorly because of lag and lost frames and generally bad audio.
How about walking in a local park, or throwing a frisbee? Taking a group walk can be a good way to get to know new people, and it seems natural to walk and chat with someone for a little while, and then switch partners. Groups can easily change membership/size without the disruption of needing to change chairs around a table.
board-games in the office.
for tech people a fun-hackathon.
outdoors a picnic,
bbq in the park, or even in the parking lot.
one company where i worked had a nice roof terrace they would use for all sorts of activities
1) I have the same background noise issue as the sibling comment. I can't have a conversation in a bar. Coffee shops are usually much more quiet, brightly lit, designed for sitting in and working/talking quietly.
2) It sucks to be the only sober person in a group. Caffeine doesn't have the same effect.
3) Bars are pretty hit or miss on if they have any non-alcaholic options (lemon juice concentrate + water doesn't count). Most coffee shops have great non-caffeinated options (horchatas, juices, smoothies/milkshakes, ciders, tisanes)
Stakehouse (sic): you can still have food. I'm vegetarian, and no, steakhouses usually don't have good options, but there's something, even if it's just a plate of steamed vegetables that basically amounts to hot crudités. I haven't liked the times my employers have had events at places with limited non-meat options, but I don't complain.
Wafflehouse: unless you have a severe wheat allergy, in which case you also can't go to a pizza restaurant, you can still find something to eat.
Milkshake bar: Non-dairy milks exist. The milkshake bars near me offer options.
Finally, as someone mentioned in another comment, just eating doesn't have the same effect as drinking. Going to a bar and having a drink makes people drunk, or at least tipsy. The non-drinker is clearly the odd one out. Going out to eat, everyone gets feds.
Yup, most bars will give you a coke with a lime for free. (I'd still tip them a couple bucks for the first one, though).
If you're at a bar and you don't want to drink, the bar absolutely wants to help you accomplish your mission. No bar owner wants an alcoholic to relapse in their bar, nor do they want designated drivers getting into fender benders in their parking lot. They'll happily give you a drink that looks alcoholic to help you ward off the peer pressure.
Yep and when you go to a catered event, you often don’t have any real option to eat if you don’t eat animal products. At least at an event where they serve beer you can just drink water.
In either case, you’ll get weird questions and you might feel left out.
My group has a very strong drinking culture and I don’t drink and don’t eat animal products. I’m always in situations where I have to explain why I’m not eating or drinking to our customers, but my coworkers and our customers are adults and don’t make it weird.
I'd actually empathize better if that had been the argument - I'm not even strictly vegetarian but it's not unusual for work-related social functions to operate on the assumption "everyone eats meat" (with maybe an occasional exception). The last such event I went to I didn't drink (not a major issue, I was fine with sparkling water), but nor did I wish to eat meat (which I do maybe once a week at dinner - this was a lunch). That proved basically impossible as it was share plates and all but one (which I insisted on, despite objections) had meat.
That might be true in the US, but there are plenty of cultures where it's common not to eat meat, or exclude certain kinds of meat. I remember the time white American co-worker told one of our Indian co-workers, a devout Hindu, that his food had beef in it. "Just a joke", right? Lots of east Asian countries have essentially no dairy products in their mainstream diets.
The solution for divergent preferences is not restricting the ones people enjoy the most, but increasing the options overall. I can't help but think the author is a very self-absorbed person for considering that line of thinking something we should try.
The author didn't say that you can't have alcohol in events. The example that they gave was that at the networking event all the drinks were alcoholic and the server had to struggle to find a non alcoholic drink for them.
Following your example, their experience would be akin of having a lunch event at a work event were they only had pork for eating when chances are that in the group there are probably some vegans/vegetarians or people that due to religious belief abstain from eating it. The argument is not that you shouldn't have pork. Is that you should also have some more options.
Yeah maybe he isn't happy with the plain non alcoholic options, which I agree makes sense. But any bar can make you a bitters and soda, or a seltzer with lime or any number of other drinks.
If it's a beer and wine social, because they don't want to deal with mixing anything, I do think it's an oversight on their part to not at least have some kind of soda options.
There is no prize that is universal outside of cash which can’t be done easily for tax reasons and a large percentage of people do drink. You could say the same about sports related prizes(some people don’t like sports), food(different taste), gift cards(boycotting store, prefer a different store, or the store is “gendered”), or any other prize. I prefer a world with prizes, even if I end up winning something I don’t want or need. I’m sure you have friends that drink, you could regift, now you have a birthday covered.
With all due respect, perhaps the problem lies with you? Not because you don’t drink, but because you let it bother you and causes you to cast judgment on others.
The article wasn't about the prize. The prize was just a way of starting the conversation. The article was about about the alcohol-centric work culture in general.
let's split it: <alcohol-centric culture> and <work culture>. These two cover significant portion of population to have intersection as a majority. The same way one can talk about <sport work culture>, or any other. To call it <alcohol-centric work culture> one would need to provide evidence of disproportional presence of <alcohol-centric culture> in work environment.
Given the fact that many companies prohibit alcohol these days, the proof would be a hard task.
> You’re well within your rights to enjoy alcohol. Please, however, make certain that your enjoyment does not come at the expense of inclusivity and the safety of others.
Nah sorry, never pressured anyone to drink, and if they don't good for them.
> almost all the discussions revolved around different types of alcohol - taste, brewing techniques, etc.
I'm pretty sure I've never experienced this, maybe this person just had a set of coworkers with very specific hobbies. The topics that come up the most in my experience are sports related, which I can't relate to at all, so I just sit back and enjoy my beer.
> Imagine going to a meetup or work event where everyone is smoking weed and they’re discussing how to grow good quality cannabis.
The last drupal meetup I went to had exactly this. I'm not at all interested in growing weed but it was still an interesting discussion.
Lol exactly my experience when at my last drupalcon. I just sat back and enjoyed my beer until there was a point in the conversation in which I had something to contribute.
As someone who homebrews beer and supplied beer for my office for a couple of years, I have no idea what this author is talking about. When I'd bring in a new beer, I would have folks asking me about what I did but that was the only time "brewing techniques" were ever brought up. It sounds they they're going to the wrong conferences or hanging out with the wrong coworkers.
> almost all the discussions revolved around different types of alcohol - taste, brewing techniques, etc. Needless to say, I had zero opinion on this topic and it barred me from engaging in most discussions.
Where was this? As much as I'd love to discuss brewing techniques with my colleagues in tech, most don't have the slightest interest in it (most people who drink, don't), and I'm very surprised it was the dominant topic of conversation at a conference—to the point where I'm nearly convinced it never happened or the author is highly exaggerating the matter.
It's unfortunate, but there is no solving it. There will always be a topic that lots of people are focused on in practice or discussion that is going to be annoying for others.
For me, in the southeast USA, it's football. It's the primary topic for a lot of people in most social settings for 1/3rd of every single year. I don't know anything about it and don't care, so I just have to leave those conversations. It's unfortunate, but it's how it is.
Alcohol is even harder, because the vast majority of places set up for casual socialization are focused on food and drink. Even if you have events at a park, rock climbing gym, or art studio, the people who like alcohol are going to want to have drinks available, and if you don't have drinks available fewer people are likely to come.
Not drinking is an incredibly healthy choice that I respect people for making. But you are in the minority in a lot of places, and being in the minority means still having to interact with the majority, who is going to want to partake and discuss their mutual interests.
I started working on this[0] a while back. Got pulled away by something that has a clearer business model, but I think "helping people drink less" (or not at all) is a real market. I'd be interested to invest in anyone that's building something that does this.
Not sure why you got downvoted, it sounds interesting and potentially very valuable. There are few apps that combine the social/shared experience feature with "goal setting", but I haven't observed them being used extensively (outside Duolingo, but even then I don't have a group of "friends" for whom I get regular updates on how they're meeting their goals and an opportunity to give encouragement) and certainly not for activities like reducing how much you're drinking. If I had the time I'd definitely be keen on contributing.
There was a popular HN post on the front page called "color has been disappearing from the world"[0]. There are comments on it about "regression to the mean", "commoditization", etc. One commentor proposed that "barren inoffense is maximum profit".
This blog post is a good example of that trend. Most humans enjoy alcohol, but some of us abstain, just like how most humans enjoy many colors but some of us of us are put off by some colors. Ergo, drinks trend towards water and colors trend towards grey.
Let's not have an alcoholic drink. Let's not go to a long sports game. Let's not see an irreverent movie. How about we just go to work, do our jobs, keep our heads down, and not do anything we can't all agree on. Obviously that's not what the author intends, but it's where you end up if you try to appease every opinion in the same family as the one in this post.
"If you don't [x], you feel like an outcast." This is true, and unfortunate. It's also unavoidable when you let people act human around each other. Common interests will be discovered, emphasized in conversation, and may begin to exclude others to some degree. The appropriate reaction is to discover those other interests that you have in common with a subset of your team and draw attention to those. However, the end result is not necessarily equitable. Sometimes a team member just has less in common with others. Worse still, not all people have the same degree of openness or diversity of interests as others. I don't know what else to say except that I sympathize, but not so much that I think we should keep on marching towards grey to lessen the impact.
There's nothing colourful about drinking and about alcohol, to the contrary, there's only grey and black from a certain point on. That's what the article is all about (at least imo), i.e. about this wrong equivalence between "having a good time" and alcohol.
To the deaf there's nothing colorful about music, just silence. To the diabetic there's nothing colorful about cake, just "grey and black from a certain point on". So why do people always have to involve music and cake in their celebrations, and spend so much time talking to each other about it?
I've said something similar before, music alone doesn't make you come home at 2 in the morning and beating up your wife and kids. I've seen alcohol do that. Eating cakes doesn't make you fall asleep in a ditch, at the side of the road, with drool coming out of your mouth (and with some kind person stopping from time to time checking if you're dead or not). I've seen alcohol do that. I fail to see the "colorness" in beating your wife or in navigating between life and death at the side of the road.
> I fail to see the "colorness" in beating your wife or in navigating between life and death at the side of the road.
I'm sure I speak for all light social drinkers when I say: These are the two things I like most about it! Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
I don't drink much. When out with the beer drinking crowd I would ask a question or two. I don't care for beer, but I did learn some things. That was enough for me.
Eventually the conversation would wander to other things. I know more than I would like to about owning a boat (mostly that I don't want to). But hey that's something.
Alcohol is superseded by superior, less bodily destructive, mind-expanding alternatives in 2022. Plus, you cannot talk someone out of being drunk - they must process it. Many young people in their thirties are drinking themselves to death. It's a tragedy, we should really kick the alcohol. To be clear, I think the other things (some on the famous "schedule") should be legalized instead.
I drink occasionally, but not very typically. It's really just not something I enjoy doing anymore. On the other hand, a lot of people really enjoy food. I mean really enjoy it, like food is a topic that will make them grossly excited in my view. I know why I see that interest that way and it's because I have a family member that I watched, with much of the same rhetoric, destroy themselves over decades with it. As a result, I cook but I don't really enjoy food - I see it as a necessity, and much of my life is spent fasting anyway. In full transparency, there is an exception for spices. I do like spicing things, but usually food conversations center around dishes - not spices.
On the other hand, I smoke a lot of weed and I play video games. I also go to festivals, enjoy gardening, casually ride my bike long~ish distances, and brew my own Kombucha.
I asked myself how would I respond in the authors shoes if someone offered me some booze or food-oriented gift. After all, these are pretty safe bets to hand out at parties. I would accept it and either regift it or repurpose it. A beer dispenser sounds like a great Kombucha dispenser. A fancy home meal kit sounds like the perfect gift for my mom, sister, or brothers.
My interests are fairly niche, there are probably few prizes that could be offered in large gatherings that would fit those interests and still be appropriate.
This rant comes off like he has a chip on his shoulder. He just took several different situations that offered alcohol and tried to make it seem like it's some kind of discrimination. Like with the beer dispenser.. he could have sold it or gift it to a coworker.
I didn’t get that vibe. I took away that the sum of all those interactions can culturally make some one who doesn’t drink feel alienated. To be mindful of that, and offer alternatives.
I have never even come close to feeling pressured to drink, I do like being treated like an adult and having the option to drink at company events/parties though, if I want.
I don't know where this person has worked or studied but it's not something I've ever come across working in the Bay Area or any other tech hub I've worked in.
> Imagine going to a meetup or work event where everyone is smoking weed and they’re discussing how to grow good quality cannabis.
I would be 100% okay with this, I wouldn't partake in the weed, I'd probably just have a beer and talk to the people anyway. I don't know much about weed, but whatever, I'll take it as an opportunity to learn something about a topic I don't know much about and have a conversation.
This just seems like an example of the difference in attitude you can have when you try to adapt yourself to your environment vs expecting your environment to adapt itself to you.
I love the occasional drink and sometimes getting drunk. But an alcohol dependent work culture is not something to strive for. It is completely ok not to drink and work events should not be completely centered around alcohol.
This entire article came across as a winey rant. I've never been in a situation where "all the discussions were about alcohol" outside of when I worked for a liquor store and participated in industry events. Within the coding spear, alcohol is not discussed anywhere close to as frequently as nerdy topics.
Why didn't the author just take the "beer dispenser" and use it to dispense something else? The pipes, tubes, mechanisms don't only work for beer. Or just sell it or donate it if it bothered him that much.
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[ 0.21 ms ] story [ 265 ms ] threadPerhaps we need to be more accepting, individually, of the joys of others which we do not share. Even if you don't drink yeast are easy, fun, and rewarding pets: perhaps the brewers' discussions need more microbiology geekery.
Why? Is this really necessary? Everybody has gotten a gift or prize that they wouldn't use or didn't really care for. You can gift it to someone else.
I have no issue with people drinking around me and will happily go to a bar and order a virgin mixed drink, but when major team-building activities revolve around drug consumption, it starts to become a bigger issue. Not to mention the fact that alcohol lowers inhibitions and makes people do really stupid things -- like make inappropriate jokes or much worse.
i don't want to be friends with people if their ability to develop friendship depends on alcohol. actually, i find it deceptive. i want to be friends with the real person. not the drunk person. it's dishonest. it's telling me that this person doesn't actually like me, and it's only the alcohol that makes them friendly. for an introvert who already has difficulty trusting people and making friends, this makes it worse, because it's a friendship that can't be trusted.
as for alternatives for team building. there are plenty of activities that are welcoming. board games for example. popular in europe. good for introverts too because you can focus on the game and you are not forced participate in random discussion topics that you can't contribute to. among tech people a fun-hackathon. otherwise food always works. picnic or bbq was always popular when it happened at tech conferences.
"depending on alcohol for team building sounds like the worst idea ever."
I assume that this was intended as hyperbole, but your argument would be much more persuasive if you fairly described the idea you're opposed to, along with its benefits, then describe why your solution, while having its own issues, is superior. Capitalization wouldn't hurt either.
Boring, disliked - that's beer for a great many of us.
I'm not saying that beer is the best tool for team-building, I'm just saying it has benefits, and just like every other alternative, trade-offs.
"depending on alcohol for team building sounds like the worst idea ever.
i don't want to be friends with people if their ability to develop friendship depends on alcohol. actually, i find it deceptive. i want to be friends with the real person. not the drunk person. it's dishonest. it's telling me that this person doesn't actually like me, and it's only the alcohol that makes them friendly. for an introvert who already has difficulty trusting people and making friends, this makes it worse, because it's a friendship that can't be trusted."
People aren't "depending" on alcohol, they're using it. Getting wasted is not a requirement of drinking alcohol. Alcohol reduces inhibitions. In small amounts it's enough to make a person feel less like they're going to sound stupid if they try to talk to new people. It's not deceptive any more than not opening up to others because you're anxious is "deceptive".
You are not better than other people because you don't drink.
i have a problem if someone claims that they can't talk to me or they can't enjoy our time together unless they had a drink.
the possible reasons why you can't talk to me makes me uncomfortable.
Alcohol reduces inhibitions. In small amounts it's enough to make a person feel less like they're going to sound stupid if they try to talk to new people.
yes, and that seriously bothers me. do you think that i don't feel uncomfortable talking to new people?
this creates an imbalance. now you are comfortable because you had a drink, and i am still not because i won't or can't. that doesn't work. now you are no longer able to sense my discomfort because you don't sense your own.
if we are both equally uncomfortable we could find a way to deal with that. instead i have to face your uninhibited self and feel like i want to run away.
some people are naturally less inhibited. that can be difficult, but if they are perceptive and considerate it can work out. i fear that alcohol also makes you less perceptive, so that is unlikely to work.
Drinking something/taking a drug at an event doesn't make the entire event revolve around that. Just because an event takes place at a brewery doesn't mean that non-brewery-related discussion is not allowed. The same can be said about literally any personal preference you have.
Do you talk about the coffee station at work in similar fashion? Do you talk about how the work place provides you with stimulant drugs in order to boost your productivity?
Caveat - I have no issue with someone drinking alcohol, coffee or whatever, but caffeine certainly has many drug-like addictive aspects to it.
My addiction is vending machine candy. I might put it on par with coffee. :)
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/drug-use
Aside: In fact, with coworkers I definitely did not drink whatsoever, even when I resumed drinking generally with friends, because I don't know what I might inadvertently blurt out, which might happen with even a couple drinks.
The author isn't talking about going out with friends, he's talking about work events that are centered around alcohol.
Hydrating, cheap, and tasty. When I'm someplace that doesn't have decent beer on tap (my preferred beverage), that's my go-to. I enjoy the idea that I'm paying ~$5 for a whole night of sparkling limes while others spend many multiples that on a night of crappy mixers.
Re social drinking, never felt any peer pressure, not now, not before. "The field where I grow my f*cks is barren". Don't care what others think about it.
> Most folks don’t understand the effect of peer pressure on those who don’t drink or are in an early stage of recovery from alcohol problems.
It sounds to me like the author is more frustrated that other people like to talk about things that he's just not interested in when they're out socializing. The harsh reality, though, is that if you don't have something more interesting or charming for them, then yes, you're going to get ignored. That's true whether they're talking about brewing beer, smoking weed, or sports. Don't waste your time at social events you don't enjoy. Or be proactive, and join the social committee to help with the planning.
The author is talking about work events, which are unavoidable if you want to get anywhere in your career.
Many of my friends have similar experiences.
As a drinker, I've occasionally ordered a non-alcoholic drink while everyone else was drinking because I had an early morning, had somewhere else to go, or simply wasn't in the mood. I've received pushback, for certain, on that - Alcoholics do get offended when you don't drink with them - but the one incident that ruffled me was odd enough that it stands out in my mind, and while I've certainly gotten "Just one" a few times, I've never felt unduly pressured to drink at work.
To put it really simply - I'd bet that the OP's author has experience what he's claiming, but I think he needs to get out of dodge because it is concentrated and you can just go work for companies that are more friendly.
I grant you a developer advocate would need to do this.
No, that's not what it implied. Only if you give the least charitable interpretation, rather than the most charitable interpretation.
There are work events that are unavoidable for many people. For all people? No, of course not. There are exceptions to every generalization. But let's not pretend that work events are unimportant to careers, generally speaking.
Would you not say that networking is important, in general? The article author was specifically talking about a networking event.
My point was that these events are not necessarily about pure personal enjoyment, and finding them disagreeable in some way is not necessarily a reason to avoid them, if it's important to your career that you attend. That's not a "waste of time".
Eh, I don't know how "wasted/buzzed" people get a professional social outings but I think after about 2 drinks there's a pretty good disconnect between "I'm buzzed and you're stone sober and the conversation just isn't on the same level as if you were drinking instead"
But that's the key part "more likely", and not something definitive. It's the thinking that that inference is definitive is where it crosses the line from trying to be understanding about another culture to becoming a racist argument.
I agree though that its definitely flirting with that dangerous assumption.
I'm perfectly ok with someone not wanting a drink. I wouldn't want to go out on the piss with them, mind, and I fully understand and respect the fact they'd not want to anyway... .
So what? We should aim to be inclusive.
This is subject to some major sampling bias. Drinkers cluster with drinkers. Non-drinkers with non-drinkers. For example, I've noticed that people tend to either know very few alcoholics or heavy drinkers personally, or almost everyone they know has an alcohol problem to some degree.
"Thinking less of someone for not drinking alcohol" would fairly describe much of my social circle. I've witnessed the abstinent be subjected to some remarkable barrages.
Oh, you don't? Is it a health issue? It's not? Then why? You don't like it? Why not? Do you think you're better than us? Are you a recovering alcoholic? No? Then what's the problem? Aren't you perfect! Why are you so uptight? Why are you trying to ruin the fun? He bought the drinks for you, it's really rude to refuse. Don't you want to have a good time? Why are you such a buzzkill? Here, try this drink (that I spiked without telling you). Yeah, there's booze in it. What's your problem?
When nearly everyone drinks heavily, and they view that as normal, then deviance from that is perceived as just that, social deviance.
Or they don't, and virtually in every community above 4 people you will find drinkers and non-drinkers as well.
> People were 50 percent more likely to be heavy drinkers if one of their friends or relatives drank heavily. However, if a friend-of-a-friend drank heavily, people were only 36 percent more likely to do so, and if a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend drank heavily, they were 15 percent more likely to do so.
> The pattern worked in reverse, too, although it wasn't as pronounced. People with a friend or relative who didn't drink were 29 percent more likely to be teetotalers themselves.
> The quantity of relationships mattered as well. The more connections to drinkers--or nondrinkers--a person had, the more powerful the effect was. People "surrounded by" heavy drinkers were 70 percent more likely to drink heavily themselves, while those with many abstinent friends and relatives were 50 percent more likely to also abstain, according to the study.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/04/06/drinking.alcohol.family... Other studies mostly point in the same direction.
In US the only time I even heard of any kind of peer pressure was from first year college kids, who have not yet had a chance to explore their new found lack of parental supervision.
Ehh, they're pretty bad in the general case. I went to probably the top 1% of bars in the country recently (in The Shard in London). The entire sum of non-alcoholic options was 4 mocktails, all pretty good and very, very sweet (between us we tried 3).
There was one solitary NA beer: Peroni. This is probably one of the very worst NA beers I've ever had, after the Beck's one.
Probably they have the usual options of sugar/aspartame bombs like Coke too, but they're not on the menu.
If you're not into sugar, not drinking alcohol is extremely boring a lot of the time.
Which is sad, because there are actually some quite nice NA beers, wines and "spirits" (herbal extractions) now.
But then again, they probably don't actually want non-drinkers there as they can't sell them outrageously expensive drinks (the most expensive NA drink is £12.50, the champagne menu goes to 4 figures).
I've also won prizes that are alcohol related. The perspective I wanted to share is that I look at this as a free opportunity to delight someone on my team that enjoys alcohol. I don't try to get the conference to drop them. Instead I look at it as a way that I can delight someone.
I would hate that we reduce everything down to the point where the only thing we can give out is glasses of water because that's the only thing everyone can agree on.
Its ok that we have different likes and tastes. Don't guilt people that they like beer. It's ok, you can not like beer and they can like beer. And you haven't lost anything by winning a prize you don't like -- instead you've gained an opportunity to make someone else happy. Just pay it forward and the next time the universe might grant you a steak dinner instead. :)
Other alternatives would be movies or shows you might not watch, books you haven't read, coffee but you don't drink coffee, BBQ but you are vegan, etc...
At least that's a variety of different topics. "But somehow, the topic of alcohol seems to overpower all other topics in networking socials."
Agree that tech is a shared interest, but I talk and think about code during all work day. Don't wanna bond over that also when I have something else to talk about
Bars are great: you get a small table for your conversation; being a little loud and bawdy is fine (no kids); it's a casual drop-in-drop-out atmosphere where the bill is already split. Where do you get that kind of atmosphere other than a bar? Genuinely asking, I'd love to have another social option.
And I still I have no idea what most people would find acceptable instead of going to a bar.
All of the alternatives I can think of involve inviting people who are almost strangers into your house (or going to theirs) before you get to know them. This obviously causes some tense situations sometimes.
It's hard to find a sport that everyone wants to do (or can do), but you could try minigolf or pickle ball and see who wants to do it.
Online movie night has been a big hit with our friends group, and I could see it working for a group of coworkers, too. Teleparty is a pretty easy Chrome plugin, but everyone needs to have the same streaming service like Netflix or Disney+. I vaguely remember someone at work trying to stream a video to the group over Meet, but it went poorly because of lag and lost frames and generally bad audio.
1) I have the same background noise issue as the sibling comment. I can't have a conversation in a bar. Coffee shops are usually much more quiet, brightly lit, designed for sitting in and working/talking quietly.
2) It sucks to be the only sober person in a group. Caffeine doesn't have the same effect.
3) Bars are pretty hit or miss on if they have any non-alcaholic options (lemon juice concentrate + water doesn't count). Most coffee shops have great non-caffeinated options (horchatas, juices, smoothies/milkshakes, ciders, tisanes)
Wafflehouse: wheat intolerant
Milkshake bar: milk/lactose intolerant
Plain water bar: I don't drink plain water /s
Wafflehouse: unless you have a severe wheat allergy, in which case you also can't go to a pizza restaurant, you can still find something to eat.
Milkshake bar: Non-dairy milks exist. The milkshake bars near me offer options.
Finally, as someone mentioned in another comment, just eating doesn't have the same effect as drinking. Going to a bar and having a drink makes people drunk, or at least tipsy. The non-drinker is clearly the odd one out. Going out to eat, everyone gets feds.
If you're at a bar and you don't want to drink, the bar absolutely wants to help you accomplish your mission. No bar owner wants an alcoholic to relapse in their bar, nor do they want designated drivers getting into fender benders in their parking lot. They'll happily give you a drink that looks alcoholic to help you ward off the peer pressure.
You’re welcome.
In either case, you’ll get weird questions and you might feel left out.
My group has a very strong drinking culture and I don’t drink and don’t eat animal products. I’m always in situations where I have to explain why I’m not eating or drinking to our customers, but my coworkers and our customers are adults and don’t make it weird.
Following your example, their experience would be akin of having a lunch event at a work event were they only had pork for eating when chances are that in the group there are probably some vegans/vegetarians or people that due to religious belief abstain from eating it. The argument is not that you shouldn't have pork. Is that you should also have some more options.
I mean, if that's his point then ok. But I doubt that he is having difficulty finding water or coke on these events.
If it's a beer and wine social, because they don't want to deal with mixing anything, I do think it's an oversight on their part to not at least have some kind of soda options.
With all due respect, perhaps the problem lies with you? Not because you don’t drink, but because you let it bother you and causes you to cast judgment on others.
Given the fact that many companies prohibit alcohol these days, the proof would be a hard task.
In my experience in the Bay Area, this describes every single meetup.
I have seen things like this at work events in Canada
Nah sorry, never pressured anyone to drink, and if they don't good for them.
I'm pretty sure I've never experienced this, maybe this person just had a set of coworkers with very specific hobbies. The topics that come up the most in my experience are sports related, which I can't relate to at all, so I just sit back and enjoy my beer.
> Imagine going to a meetup or work event where everyone is smoking weed and they’re discussing how to grow good quality cannabis.
The last drupal meetup I went to had exactly this. I'm not at all interested in growing weed but it was still an interesting discussion.
Where was this? As much as I'd love to discuss brewing techniques with my colleagues in tech, most don't have the slightest interest in it (most people who drink, don't), and I'm very surprised it was the dominant topic of conversation at a conference—to the point where I'm nearly convinced it never happened or the author is highly exaggerating the matter.
For me, in the southeast USA, it's football. It's the primary topic for a lot of people in most social settings for 1/3rd of every single year. I don't know anything about it and don't care, so I just have to leave those conversations. It's unfortunate, but it's how it is.
Alcohol is even harder, because the vast majority of places set up for casual socialization are focused on food and drink. Even if you have events at a park, rock climbing gym, or art studio, the people who like alcohol are going to want to have drinks available, and if you don't have drinks available fewer people are likely to come.
Not drinking is an incredibly healthy choice that I respect people for making. But you are in the minority in a lot of places, and being in the minority means still having to interact with the majority, who is going to want to partake and discuss their mutual interests.
0 - https://stopping.app/
This blog post is a good example of that trend. Most humans enjoy alcohol, but some of us abstain, just like how most humans enjoy many colors but some of us of us are put off by some colors. Ergo, drinks trend towards water and colors trend towards grey.
Let's not have an alcoholic drink. Let's not go to a long sports game. Let's not see an irreverent movie. How about we just go to work, do our jobs, keep our heads down, and not do anything we can't all agree on. Obviously that's not what the author intends, but it's where you end up if you try to appease every opinion in the same family as the one in this post.
"If you don't [x], you feel like an outcast." This is true, and unfortunate. It's also unavoidable when you let people act human around each other. Common interests will be discovered, emphasized in conversation, and may begin to exclude others to some degree. The appropriate reaction is to discover those other interests that you have in common with a subset of your team and draw attention to those. However, the end result is not necessarily equitable. Sometimes a team member just has less in common with others. Worse still, not all people have the same degree of openness or diversity of interests as others. I don't know what else to say except that I sympathize, but not so much that I think we should keep on marching towards grey to lessen the impact.
0. https://tumblr.macleodsawyer.com/post/691054353059053568/col...
I'm sure I speak for all light social drinkers when I say: These are the two things I like most about it! Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Eventually the conversation would wander to other things. I know more than I would like to about owning a boat (mostly that I don't want to). But hey that's something.
On the other hand, I smoke a lot of weed and I play video games. I also go to festivals, enjoy gardening, casually ride my bike long~ish distances, and brew my own Kombucha.
I asked myself how would I respond in the authors shoes if someone offered me some booze or food-oriented gift. After all, these are pretty safe bets to hand out at parties. I would accept it and either regift it or repurpose it. A beer dispenser sounds like a great Kombucha dispenser. A fancy home meal kit sounds like the perfect gift for my mom, sister, or brothers.
My interests are fairly niche, there are probably few prizes that could be offered in large gatherings that would fit those interests and still be appropriate.
I don't know where this person has worked or studied but it's not something I've ever come across working in the Bay Area or any other tech hub I've worked in.
> Imagine going to a meetup or work event where everyone is smoking weed and they’re discussing how to grow good quality cannabis.
I would be 100% okay with this, I wouldn't partake in the weed, I'd probably just have a beer and talk to the people anyway. I don't know much about weed, but whatever, I'll take it as an opportunity to learn something about a topic I don't know much about and have a conversation.
This just seems like an example of the difference in attitude you can have when you try to adapt yourself to your environment vs expecting your environment to adapt itself to you.
Why didn't the author just take the "beer dispenser" and use it to dispense something else? The pipes, tubes, mechanisms don't only work for beer. Or just sell it or donate it if it bothered him that much.
...freudian typo...