Should there be any limitations on this kind of hazing for jobs that, by definition, require extreme mental and physical fortitude, if the applicants know the risks up front?
If we legislate away the Navy's ability to filter applicants in this way, what kind of effects will it have on the quality of the SEALs over time?
If we legislate away the Navy's ability to filter applicants in this way, are they going to me more at risk of death later, on the job?
Accidental death certainly elicits an emotional reaction, in the media and in the general population. Is that emotional reaction the appropriate guide to properly build and maintain the institutions we rely on?
In the case of performance enhancing drugs, it certainly seems like their use should be curtailed.
> [legislate away filtering] applicants in this way, what kind of effects will it have on the quality
I think that's begging the question, in a way. There are probably ways to modify the "hazing" to be equally effective but less hazardous. In my mind, the physical demands are just a means of testing mental fortitude; once you've selected ideal (and physically healthy) candidates, improving their physical conditioning is relatively trivial.
If anything, adding additional monitoring, supervision, and drug testing should be in line with the stated goals of Hell Week.
Isn't the point of the danger and recklessness of hazing to build a team bond and sense of camraderie through a shared experience? Would an equally grueling experience that is missing real danger build as strong a bond?
Possibly. My recollection is that the foundation of SEAL training was by Draper Kauffman, based on bonding he saw between French volunteer combatants in WWII, and their "no man left behind" attitudes. In this sense, the link between danger and team bonding is pretty obvious.
However, a lot of the more famous parts of SEAL training are more about shared hardship and the need for teamwork than actual risk of life (see: Log PT). Admittedly, this aspect gets a lot more press because it's popular in corporate management circles (building high-performing teams, etc.).
I'm not sure if there's been much research one way or another.
Either way, I doubt creating fail-safes for some causes of SEAL training deaths will diminish the perception of danger (drug abuse, drowning while under supervision from trainers).
> it certainly seems like their use should be curtailed.
Or at least closely monitored by qualified medical professionals.
You might be surprised to learn that amphetamines, steroids, and other performance enhancing drugs are issue to military personnel in specific cases, but they are done so under medical supervision.
However, in the case of this article, Viagra use is not authorized nor properly monitored.
Yes it seems like the path of 'medically supervised biological optimization' is underutilized here. Clearly more ethical than 'secretly and unevenly distributed self managed biohacking'
A shame, feel bad for Kyle and his family. I don't think the Navy or SEAL command should be at fault for this, though. Kyle made the decision to take the drug, and he did so (presumably) illicitly and in secret. The nature of special operations units is demanding and grueling, and the selection processes should always endeavor to mirror that intensity.
Special operations units will always attract people literally willing to die to get in or before they lose what they perceive to be a competition. I would know, as I was one of these people. I was with the 75th Ranger Regiment (2/75) for five years. The selection program at the time, Ranger Indoctrination Program ("RIP", now known as "RASP" these days), was basically a month-long PT-until-exhaustion hazefest. The first run we did on the first day of RIP in July Georgia heat was a 5+-mile run at a sprinting pace, and five people fell out due to heat exhaustion alone and were removed from the course. I was on the cusp of heat exhaustion, probably actually got it. But I wasn't going to quit - I literally committed myself to die before that happened. If I had a pulse, I was going to be a Ranger no matter what. This same attitude and a similar hot weather incident would nearly kill me almost a year later in Florida phase in Ranger school. I was a no-shit heat casualty, and I blacked out for a few hours. When I came to, I was told I was hyper aggressive with people, couldn't stand on my feet and was stumbling around, I cut holes into my uniform with my Gerber knife, and a Ranger Instructor forced me to submerge myself completely in a nearby stream. Nothing formally came of it, I graduated Ranger School, and always (and still do today) have to take special care of myself when it's hot. Running or hiking when it's 85+ degrees Fahrenheit outside is a nonstarter for me, and dizzy spells creep up pretty quick.
Not saying this to brag. This complete disregard for one's health to complete the mission and/or find glory is a common thread in special operations units. Jeff Struecker, a Ranger legend who was key player in the infamous "Black Hawk Down" incident in Somalia, recently said outright the Ranger mission is a suicide mission[1]. I was appalled when I first heard him say it so bluntly, but after some thought I think this is an accurate statement.
> The nature of special operations units is demanding and grueling, and the selection processes should always endeavor to mirror that intensity.
Then again, there are plenty of way to achieve that. The issue with the so called “hell week” is the amount of swimming in frigid water. You don’t need that much swimming to produce the desired effect. You could replace say a quarter of it with gruelling runs in the jungle and reach the same results without all the pulmonary edemas. I mean the issue is so common that applicants know how to self medicate. It clearly means there is an issue there.
But it’s an hopeless fight. BUD/S has been criticised for decades even by high ranking navy officers and nothing changes. The SEALs all went through it and refuse to face that the thing is absurd out of pride. I fully expect people to keep dying until politicians put their foot down.
That sounds completely irresponsible if not implausible to me. There are special operation units that are considered more 'elite' than the SEALs and a full tier above the rangers (that are a cut above regular infantry), with mentally tougher but safer selection processes: Delta and British SAS.
Most Delta Operators are either rangers or Seals. Delta doesn’t have to do the dangerous shit because their applicants have mostly already done it. Army SF is represented there as well, but comparing their training to Seal training doesn’t really make sense as their missions are very different.
My understanding is that winning at any cost is the nature of Special Forces/Warfare. They aren't normal troops with the normal abundance of resources or operating arenas.
Long distance ocean swimmers often smear their body with chicken grease to keep from losing too much heat. I guess that would table stakes for this kind of thing.
18 comments
[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 50.6 ms ] threadShould there be any limitations on this kind of hazing for jobs that, by definition, require extreme mental and physical fortitude, if the applicants know the risks up front?
If we legislate away the Navy's ability to filter applicants in this way, what kind of effects will it have on the quality of the SEALs over time?
If we legislate away the Navy's ability to filter applicants in this way, are they going to me more at risk of death later, on the job?
Accidental death certainly elicits an emotional reaction, in the media and in the general population. Is that emotional reaction the appropriate guide to properly build and maintain the institutions we rely on?
In the case of performance enhancing drugs, it certainly seems like their use should be curtailed.
I think that's begging the question, in a way. There are probably ways to modify the "hazing" to be equally effective but less hazardous. In my mind, the physical demands are just a means of testing mental fortitude; once you've selected ideal (and physically healthy) candidates, improving their physical conditioning is relatively trivial.
If anything, adding additional monitoring, supervision, and drug testing should be in line with the stated goals of Hell Week.
However, a lot of the more famous parts of SEAL training are more about shared hardship and the need for teamwork than actual risk of life (see: Log PT). Admittedly, this aspect gets a lot more press because it's popular in corporate management circles (building high-performing teams, etc.).
I'm not sure if there's been much research one way or another.
Either way, I doubt creating fail-safes for some causes of SEAL training deaths will diminish the perception of danger (drug abuse, drowning while under supervision from trainers).
Or at least closely monitored by qualified medical professionals.
You might be surprised to learn that amphetamines, steroids, and other performance enhancing drugs are issue to military personnel in specific cases, but they are done so under medical supervision.
However, in the case of this article, Viagra use is not authorized nor properly monitored.
Special operations units will always attract people literally willing to die to get in or before they lose what they perceive to be a competition. I would know, as I was one of these people. I was with the 75th Ranger Regiment (2/75) for five years. The selection program at the time, Ranger Indoctrination Program ("RIP", now known as "RASP" these days), was basically a month-long PT-until-exhaustion hazefest. The first run we did on the first day of RIP in July Georgia heat was a 5+-mile run at a sprinting pace, and five people fell out due to heat exhaustion alone and were removed from the course. I was on the cusp of heat exhaustion, probably actually got it. But I wasn't going to quit - I literally committed myself to die before that happened. If I had a pulse, I was going to be a Ranger no matter what. This same attitude and a similar hot weather incident would nearly kill me almost a year later in Florida phase in Ranger school. I was a no-shit heat casualty, and I blacked out for a few hours. When I came to, I was told I was hyper aggressive with people, couldn't stand on my feet and was stumbling around, I cut holes into my uniform with my Gerber knife, and a Ranger Instructor forced me to submerge myself completely in a nearby stream. Nothing formally came of it, I graduated Ranger School, and always (and still do today) have to take special care of myself when it's hot. Running or hiking when it's 85+ degrees Fahrenheit outside is a nonstarter for me, and dizzy spells creep up pretty quick.
Not saying this to brag. This complete disregard for one's health to complete the mission and/or find glory is a common thread in special operations units. Jeff Struecker, a Ranger legend who was key player in the infamous "Black Hawk Down" incident in Somalia, recently said outright the Ranger mission is a suicide mission[1]. I was appalled when I first heard him say it so bluntly, but after some thought I think this is an accurate statement.
[1]: https://www.linkedin.com/company/legends-of-the-75th/videos/...
Then again, there are plenty of way to achieve that. The issue with the so called “hell week” is the amount of swimming in frigid water. You don’t need that much swimming to produce the desired effect. You could replace say a quarter of it with gruelling runs in the jungle and reach the same results without all the pulmonary edemas. I mean the issue is so common that applicants know how to self medicate. It clearly means there is an issue there.
But it’s an hopeless fight. BUD/S has been criticised for decades even by high ranking navy officers and nothing changes. The SEALs all went through it and refuse to face that the thing is absurd out of pride. I fully expect people to keep dying until politicians put their foot down.
Excluding the CIA black units, DELTA > DEVGRU > SF / SEALs / FORECON > Rangers.
[0]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/30/us/navy-seal-training-dea...