Ask HN: Discord banned me with no recourse
I recently tried to make a separate work account in Discord.
To do so I created a new account with my main accounts phone number. This caused discord to delete my primary account phone number and used it for the new account.
However, this alone caused me to be instantly banned. After reaching out to support, they basically told that me I could not use my present phone number for verification and that they couldn't tell me why, and couldn't help me further with that.
I would really like to keep my primary Discord account, is there anything I can do about it?
I have contacted Discord support through their ticket system twice, I have contacted Discord on Twitter (DM); but to no avail
299 comments
[ 6.9 ms ] story [ 278 ms ] thread[0] https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/3600556...
I still get notifications on my phone from the logged in account, but when trying to access it's asking for phone verification, which obviously doesn't work because there is no phone number tied to the account!
>>Have an alt account, or help a friend complete their verification? Your phone has just been registered and is on timeout. Unfortunately we can not lift this, and you will need to wait for the end of the timeout to use the number once more, or use a different number to verify the account.
I don't see what constructive answer you can expect in these threads other than "I work at <company> and I DM'd the CEO for you"; I've seen FAANG companies and Stripe respond that way here on HN, but never Discord.
The best alternative I can think of is "that sucks, rotate phone numbers and try with a new account" which is just as completely useless for OP. If that were an option, they'd already done so.
It is infuriating and I don't see why these services would need my phone number.
If you need an account professionally, you need a mobile phone to be provided for you. This is in your interest and that of the company if they decide they want to use your account beyond your employment for example.
I agree with you, but it does dramatically cut down on spam registration.
I understand why they are being made, but it's getting a bit tiring to see these on the front page so frequently.
It's getting a bit tiring to see that these large corporations still can't figure it out on how to treat your user base regarding de-platforming.
You can be stubborn and rely on a platform your audience/community probably doesn’t want to use and have a very steep uphill battle to success. Or you can take a risk and rely on a platform you don’t own and have a (somewhat) less steep uphill battle to success.
If the platform is good enough and the benefits of using it are significant enough, people are going to take the risk. See: App Store development, selling on Amazon instead of your own e-commerce store, etc.
Free dedicated voice chat with rich text chat. It was meant to take on Teamspeak, Ventrilo, Mumble etc. And it successfully did.
>or IRC if you're savvy
Totally different use case, not even comparable
Again, it's made for voice/screen/streaming share, not primarily text.
I'm in multiple text chat rooms on multiple servers in irc though.
May I counter that Discord effectively proprietarised the open standard that is IRC and then put all the bells and whistles such as shared screen streaming, voice chat etc on top? Similar to how WhatsApp proprietarised XMPP.
Even the niche Discord servers have managed to replicate the community feel of the early to mid 1990's IRC channels.
That's how I see it. You are welcome to disagree.
The fact it had text channels with (very, very limited) markup was less a ripoff of IRC and more "The basic thing everyone expects from a comms client, to have basic text channels where you can type words." It's literally the most fundamental thing a "communicator" can do is to have a text box that other users can look at. Otherwise you wouldn't even be able to organize people to get in voice channels! Sorry to say but nobody except nerds know what "IRC" is, but almost everyone understands online chat. This is not new. The fact IRC diehards think Discord "proprietized" IRC is a good example of not knowing or understanding your enemy at all and just romanticizing about what you think is important. Discord was not popular because of text chat. It was popular because of voice chat, and it did voice chat very well.
Every discussion of Discord has to have IRC contrarians who reminded you "it had text chat first", all while the fact of the matter is text chat isn't what made Discord popular to begin with!
> Even the niche Discord servers have managed to replicate the community feel of the early to mid 1990's IRC channels.
That isn't because IRC is some magical happy software that makes everybody using it sit in a circle and sing campfire songs. It's because what you are describing is the natural end-point of all online communication forums like Discord, IRC, AIM, or even Twitter or whatever: "community." What you are witnessing is a community of humans congregating, not some magical special sauce that IRC gave us in 1980 or whatever.
Community has existed in human society for a long time, in fact. Seeing it replicated in different mediums with similar features and form is not surprising at all. Your wording might imply IRC gave us this or something, or that the "communities" in Discord are rather ersatz in some way -- but I argue that's a simple confusion of cause and effect.
My point is that it is reductive to say "Discord is just IRC with some addons" when those addons are critical to its success. If Mumble had video-conference and screen sharing, it'd be pretty easy to convince my friends to use Mumble. Other than the network effect of Discord being the entry point to multiple servers/friend groups, and Discord makes spinning up your own server trivial.
So again, it does more than "just" improve on text chat.
> How do people feel ok taking such a big risk?
Well for most people they don't see the risks involved and those who are aware of the risks don't believe it will ever happen to them. Just look at Google accounts as an example. People use Gmail, get themselves locked out of them, and lose pretty much all their digital lives all the time but people still happily rely on Gmail.
Some quickly Googled stats about Gmail (take these number with a pinch of salt cause I've not looked into whats supporting these numbers - https://techjury.net/blog/gmail-statistics/ )
> Gmail remains the most popular email platform with over 1.8 billion users worldwide.
> As of April 2022, Gmail holds 29.5% of the email client market share.
> Gmail accounts for 27% of all email opens.
> 75% of all Gmail users access their email on mobile devices.
> 61% of 18-29-year-olds use Gmail.
It is not that it is difficult to use a client (though the authentication i snot obvious - but then I had to think hard about Discord authentication/servers/invitations as well) but everyone is used to have a web interface and mobile clients to start with.
But there's definitely a lower barrier to entry with Discord right now, maybe forever. But maybe there just needs to be time to push through the network effect of discord. I'm vaguely optimistic, I'm seeing Matrix more and more often these days. Still in nerd circles, of course.
I only communicate on Matrix through a web interface.
For gamers, Discord became a no-brainer after not much time. Click to create a server for some friends, send out some invites, and that's pretty much all you need. Built-in game overlay settings, voice chat, and screen sharing. Text and voice channels.
Compare this to the old TeamSpeak/Ventrilo/Mumble era, where you'd need to actually manage the installation, and tell people how to connect.
Discord makes it braindead-easy to get started, and the risks you're talking about affect less than 10% of the userbase, probably. Until a more-open platform provides a better experience, Discord will be here to stay among the masses.
I will never give my phone to Discord/Twitter etc - just a matter of principle.
> I just checked with my team, and upon review of your account, it appears that our detection system has triggered successfully and we will not be removing the phone verification requirement on your account. You'll be required to register a phone number to your Discord account in order to continue the use of it.
This is *after* I explained that I'm still logged in and can fully use Discord in another browser without registering a phone number.
I tried to also get an answer as to whether I'll be locked out of my account if I log out of my account in Firefox, but they didn't tell me.
That's exactly the same response I got, word-for-word, to my lockout ticket [1]. Initially I thought it was a human replying to my ticket, now I'm not so sure.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31398660
Re-used phrases is not a sign of a bot, IMO. But it is a sign of employees who have to respond to the same thing over and over and don't have much power to effect change.
I'm disabled from severe depression resistant to first line treatments, bedridden a lot of the time, and I rely on the platform for most of my social interaction and resources for my hobbies, as far as I can pursue them of course. Discord is invaluable and is basically a monopoly in my cultural bubble.
On Jan 13, they disabled a 7 year old early supporter account with an active Nitro subscription with the reason "Your account posted content that sexualized individuals under the age of 18, or was involved in servers dedicated to such unacceptable content". I've never done this. I learned a lot of people were getting disabled for being in a server that they haven't touched in years and it went rogue or was raided and that stuff was posted there, so I figured I was a victim of a carpet bombing and it was a one-off.
But they continued to disable every new account (12 so far, I lost count). Most of the accounts were disabled in the last two weeks. They left me alone for 6 months until Sep 1 when my 4th account was disabled without the usual explanation email. I made an appeal and not only was it ignored, it was marked solved within 4 hours.
In fact they have not communicated with me at all. They have ignored all of my tickets, have not sent emails for each account that was disabled after the first. Except one time I got an email but the reason was left blank.
A few days ago I made three accounts to try to test ways to get them off my back. One was made on a virtual machine on a VPS located a thousand miles away from me and had no connection to me. Although I did give vague hints to friends that it was me. They banned all three accounts, even the VM one. I had a nervous breakdown knowing I may never be able to participate on the platform again. I also felt like I was being watched.
In the last two weeks it was always the same Discord staff assigning themselves to my appeals, "Violet". This includes the one that was marked solved without communication. And they're supposedly experiencing increased ticket volumes.
I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. Only thing I can hope for is Discord to basically die and everyone moves elsewhere, or they leave me alone.
I'm generally clueless about the process in depth, admittedly.
I'm a budding programmer and I maintain(ed) the DarkPlaces engine. In August 2020, I created a Discord server for it with LadyHavoc's blessing, creating a community that brought together professional developers making commercial games using the engine.
...only for me to not be able to participate unless I can poke someone to make time to set up a bridge. Even then, if I'm banned from Discord, who is to say they won't see me talking through a bridge as ban evasion and wipe the bridge, or even the whole server out?
I certainly have my regrets.
Curious what the mechanism for identifying the VPS account was. Phone number? Some sort of client signature? I don't use discord.
There should have been no other link to me, no fingerprint. This was an environment that has never touched Discord.
As of now I set up a new account that is less-than-discreet, obviously me if they're paying attention, and another account that is very discreet, on a VPN. I'm testing to see if an Android work profile is leaking anything. If both accounts get disabled, then it's back to the drawing board. If the not-so-discreet account gets disabled, the work profile is working and I'm on the right track. Although it sucks to have to abandon my friends and identity over this nonsense, just to stay hidden and be fearful of seeing that damn login screen again.
Hey, if neither get disabled in the next, say, month, maybe this Violet person was fired or they gave up. I can only assume it's them if they're the ones intercepting my appeals every time.
I will be eager to hear about others' results. (No effect, + or -, for me, on a smaller dose. Do, always, start with a smaller dose, in case it works badly for you; and check warnings on drug interactions carefully.) Maybe ask your Dr.
A single dose of ketamine was discovered a couple of years back to provide a complete remission for weeks, for some varieties of depression including some that did not respond to any approved meds. But unfortunately ketamine is a "schedule 3" drug in the US, for reasons (strongly addictive, tends to persistent hallucination; cf. John Lilly).
Then somebody observed that DM operated on some of the same receptors, or something, and tried it, and then initiated a full RCT on a very limited dose. Approval for that coupled with a low-ish dose of bupropion just came out a few weeks ago. Presumably higher-dose trials are in the works now.
Depression is what is often called a "wastebasket diagnosis", analog to a wastebasket, or paraphyletic, taxon in biology, where unrelated species have been lumped together because their actual relationships were too hard to tease out before DNA analysis became practical. (Falcons ended up having to be split from hawks, on DNA evidence they are sister to e.g. pigeons, over birders' outrage.)
Numerous unrelated pathologies get called "depression", so the only way to distinguish them is by what med they respond to, if any. It is why we keep seeing spurious media reports that depression meds "don't work": RCTs depend utterly for validity on accurate diagnosis, which for depression does not exist.
So, search anywhere for "ketamine depression" for the original discovery, and "dextromethorphan bupropion" for the recent FDA announcement.
You shared furry porn picturing subjects of a questionable age, didn't you?
We keep seeing these dystopian stories again and again and again. Does anybody really believe it will ever stop? Or will we all live in fear of losing a lot of work and valuable connections by being banned from one of our social accounts?
I already lost one Instagram account that I put a lot of work into. One day, Insta suddenly asked for my birthday. After me putting it in, all I saw is "Sorry, this page isn't available." and thats it. Whenever I try to log in, all I get is "Sorry, this page isn't available.". Some kind of ban or bug. I dunno. I never managed to get it back. Feels very 1984.
But when say "Ok, let's build social tools where the user owns their social graph via cryptographic proof" then there is nothing but (blind?) hate.
Sometimes there are real discussions. Then the main argument is always "But what if you lose your private key?"
Well, we could build something like Discord (FB, Twitter, Insta, HN, you name it) where losing our private key throws us back to the current system. So if the platform owner (say a DAO) "decides" to deplatform you (say via a DAO vote) you can use your private key to prohibit it.
This way, you can only become deplatformed if the platform decides to deplatform you AND you lose your private key.
If you only lose your private key, then you can ask the platform to please transfer your account to a new private key. Then the usual authentification mechanisms (email, phone, id etc) kick in.
I could sleep way better if I knew that two have to mess up for me to lose my digital life. Me and the platform.
I don't. Regulation is the key in my opinion. Not fully sure what policies need to be enacted, but at the very least prohibit automated bans except for very trivial cases that don't really need human review.
Your response is "mah regulation".
On Hacker News of all places, I'd expect that people were at least willing to take control of their lives and actions, and not to cry from oppressive authority to another, thinking that we can only choose the lesser of two evils.
Where has that spirit gone, really? Is it a generational thing?
> based on free software where such type of arbitrary rulings are impossible.
Software license has nothing to do with what rulings are possible. If you're found to be doing something illegal, it's on you to figure out how to deal with that. It may involve not using that software.
But we don't live in a Cyberpunk dystopia. Government regulation is useful for many things. The answer to corps running wild does not have to be starting an isolated system from scratch.
No, I am writing like one of them has shown to be completely useless in effecting any type of real change, while the other is an equalizing force.
> Software license has nothing to do with what rulings are possible.
The software license has nothing to do with it. It is the economic and social forces that differ.
If government is supposedly accountable to the people it should serve public ends. If it doesn't it should be replaced. I thought that was the entire "Amwrican experiment"? Huh, guess it's a generational thing
Regulations haven't abolished any of that, they just pushed to China, where you still happily buy products from because they are so cheap.
> American experiment
First, the American experiment was to have a loosely coupled federation of states and to have spread power on the lower spheres of influence. That experiment has been abandoned for a while.
Second, the world should not not revolve around what American people and its government wants to do.
The fact that an older individual shares one idea with the younger generation does not exclude the possibility of it being a generational divide.
Kudos, though, for also sharing the younger trait of treating every argument as something about their own identities.
A large contingent of ""hackers"" throws up their hands and say "fine none of us then as long as I can insulate myself from the worse effects of it" and yes that is a shameful abdication of the responsibilities we have towards each other. Sorry if you find your own identity in there but you don't have to be so complacent about it yourself either.
> "fine none of us then as long as I can insulate myself from the worse effects of it".
No. More like "there is no way that any central entity will be able to solve the conflicts of everyone without turning into authoritarianism and tyranny, so let's stop pretending that we can do that and create a plethora of different communities where people are closer to those with decision-making power."
I can (and want) to help my neighbor and those close to me as equals, but I have no interest in being a mere subject serving as an instrument to whoever is in power above.
The language may be uncharitable but I remain comfortable calling that cowardice and user-blaming, yes. I stand where I stand on this.
The government is not supposed to be oppressive. And if it is, you are better out of mainstream communication channels anyway.
All "Big" Governments are oppressive, as all "Big" anything is. The only difference is in how they exert their power, and what type of people are at the top of each pyramid.
Even "totally democratic" powers of the west will quickly attempt to crush anything that takes that power away from them and show potential to liberate people.
These theoretical cyberpunk-like crypto-networks only work in practice if you're uploaded to the matrix. Otherwise they fail the XKCD/538 Wrench Test.
Host your own mission critical services, and don’t commit too much to (especially free) third party services.
If people would host "abc liked my tweet" and "xyz follows me" on their own server, then everybody would claim that Billie Eilish liked all their tweets and Joe Biden is their best friend.
People go on social media for the social graph.
You can do that via a central authority (and live in fear that everything is taken from you) or you can do it via cryptographic proof. Self hosting is not a solution.
You also cannot host identity.
If your domain gets stolen from you (search for the horror stories on Google or HN search), your identity is gone. Nothing you can do against it, since you are at the mercy of authorities again: The registrars.
This problem is what public key verification is literally made to solve.
If Billie Eilish likes your tweet, her client signs the like with her private key and sends the result to your server. Other clients can verify the like is real by looking at the result you send back with the "like" and verifying it against her public key.
Edit: The person I'm replying to has edited their post at least 3 separate times in the past couple minutes, adding multiple new lines to say different things, so if this disagreement to it ends up making no sense, you know why.
Twitter bots already do that.
Nobody can ban me from email, or from my own website.
EDIT: Maybe breaking into my email server and sending out spam to poison my IP. That’s conceivable, and would partially ban me from sending out email.
As long as nobody cares enough to do it, it probably won’t happen.
Just never piss off the wrong person.
For email see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32715437
For website see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32706673
On the second one you might want to look further into that case... people have been frantically going after every possible company that does any business with them trying to get them off the internet, whether that's hosting providers, DDoS protection services, IP allocation providers, upstream ISPs, nameservers, domain registrars, etc.
If a town banned you from the train station because you refuse to give them your phone number, that would open them up to being sued. That should absolutely apply to Discord, Google Mail and Amazon AWS.
I can't wait for EU to propose something similar to fix these kind of issues, or a minimum level of customer service per every thousand users.
If you want government-run services that act as public versions of these services, advocate for that. But I don't support this particular method of socializing private businesses.
There's even precedence when a private company is a de-facto public space (and must follow the governments' mandates on public spaces) in the physical world; extending this to the digital world makes sense.
Yes it’s easier to gain a following online, but throughout MOST of history, people started these movements/conversation offline. Don’t let these companies trick you into thinking you don’t have a voice, or power, without voicing your thoughts on their “platforms”. You have a voice, and you can use it. You’ll just have to get out the house and start talking to people face to face.
Edit: I didn't mean to establish a condescending tone with the second sentence - I was simply making an observation.
Ok, if the internet is not "real" life, then what is it?
Is it "in" reality? Do we interact with it? Does it interact with us, or within the ineffable, largely unseen soup of causality from which how things are/become in this world emerges? Does anything matter?
"Don't forget that everything you see online is a facade. 15+ years ago, I fell in love with the internet because it's somewhere I could go to be something that I'm not. I could be LOUD, or I could say things I would normally never say away from the keyboard, and I think everyone bonded together online with this fact in mind. The internet was an escape.
Soon, people began to view the internet as a reality due to the rapid homogenization into 3-4 major websites which are controlled mostly by advertisers. But what I've noticed is that most of the opinions you read online aren't very honest.
Commenters on reddit will grift in the comment section for upvotes. Some commenters on HN will purposely avoid certain topics because their account is tied to their reputation in certain very partisan circles in California. Both of these examples are often the loudest and MOST SEEN (or unseen...) replies due to the low effort alignment with the popular opinion at the time.
Although the internet seems more real everyday, I truly believe it's never been further from reality. No one is truly able to say what they want due to the (seemingly) dire consequences of saying "F*ck it" and stating your true opinion (which isn't all the time, but the option no longer exists). And this even applies in the short term. If you aren't banned, you're downvoted (HN, reddit, Lobste.rs, every website with a comment section...) or filtered by an algorithm tuned to keep corporate sponsors and advertisers happy (Facebook, Twitter, YouTube)."
That our government requires you to use the internet puts lie to the idea that you can live a complete life without the internet.
And since the government does not provide an email system, you still need to use a private service to access those public resources.
Unless you contact them through USPS, which is a public service.
It is highly inconvenient without the internet, but not required.
It turns out there's more email providers than just gmail.
Which I am going to interpret as "yes, you do need the internet to live your life, and you also have to be either savvy or unremarkable to keep from getting stomped on by private entities."
I agree with this. There are many government functions which need the internet to be able to use. But getting banned from Discord does not prevent me from accessing a government website. Getting banned from Gmail does not prevent me from sending or receiving an email from the government. Getting banned from WhatsApp does not prevent me from calling 911.
You practically do need an ISP to use the internet, often (in the US) your choice of ISP is very limited, and I do support common carrier regulations on ISPs. Maybe this will change with more wireless connectivity options becoming available to the broader public, but as it stands you normally don't have much of a choice which ISP will service your home.
But Gmail isn't an ISP. Facebook is not an ISP. You can still use the internet without having to log into Facebook. You didn't need an Instagram account to write this comment. Tiktok could ban me and I'd still be able to send emails to the government. I'd still be able to schedule a DMV appointment even if Spotify cancels my account.
If McDonald's banned me from their establishments I would not go hungry. You're essentially arguing I'd starve if they did. McDonald's makes up 24% of all fast food establishments, they're the largest player in the space. Clearly I would have a hard time ever eating without it. There's other providers out there! There are other places to get food other than McDonald's! You don't need a Gmail account to receive email!
And yes, you literally did just suggest that I needed a Gmail account to receive emails from the government. I regularly receive emails from the government to an address unrelated to Gmail.
IME it is exactly the opposite. People are more honest and open with their opinions on the internet; in real life, they are more likely to stay quiet or lie where they feel their interlocutors may not be accepting if their true thoughts were to be expressed.
Most couples now meet online. Good luck convincing them all the internet is not real life. And those stats are from 2017. Given a few years of lockdown the trend has surely accelerated.
Discord is how a lot of young people talk these days. If you're banned from Discord, it's not very comforting to hear "you don't need Discord son, in my day we didn't have Discord and we wrote to our pen pals. I'm sure you'll make some new friends."
>it's not very comforting
That's the problem. Your comfort doesn't matter. If you want comfort, go buy a hammock. If you want to boss companies around with overreaching regulations, then get into politics.
The fact is, companies can do what they want (within existing regulations). "They should" or "They shouldn't" arguments are outside of both of our control.
1. someone who broke site rules
2. someone who did not break site rules
I advocate group #1 suffering the consequences for their actions. I do not advocate group #2 losing access due to factors outside their control. Not sure why you're getting the two confused.
So I'm glad to see we agree. When you break the rules, it's OK for the site to ban you. So in this instance, Discord did nothing wrong, they banned someone who broke the site's rules.
Why can't it be regulated? Phone is and it's provided by private companies. The law even allows me to port my number between them.
Yes, due to your own lack of contingency planning.
I respect your intentions, but government regulation is not always the answer. At some point, we have to admit that we are far too reliant on these services (that many luddites refuse to use, and live a normal life).
My second sentence is true as of now, but maybe things could change in the future. However, I only base my arguments on present circumstances.
I do agree that some of these companies need to at least offer some sort of human support team or call center available to serve users that were falsely banned or randomly booted. However, forcing the hand of these companies is not only unfair, but pretty entitled.
Gmail is a free service.
I suspect you're older - imagine the US without a public highway system. Imagine every highway is private. Imagine what arbitrary bans from those highways would do to impact how you live. Talk to me about how well we should communicate face to face in that situation?
Idea not that appealing? That's what you're advocating for today.
A complete loss of a highway system that has no public replacement. By the way - those "18-24 age range" are all being forced to help pay for those "private highways" with their tax dollars anyways, in the form of govt subsidies to private cable companies.
Should we discount the ability to still communicate face to face? Nope. Damn well shouldn't.
Does that make this ok? Nope, Damn well doesn't.
No, I'm younger than you.
> Imagine every highway is private. Imagine what arbitrary bans from those highways would do to impact how you live. Talk to me about how well we should communicate face to face in that situation
First off, this is a flawed argument because my taxes don't pay for the servers running Discord or other similar services.
Also, your response is proving my point. I said in my original comment that your entire argument is based on the desire for instant gratification through through the use of private services that can boost your voice/reach online - These are private services, and you are not entitled to them at all.
I understand you want faster results (in a time where you can go online), but it's still very possible to get results face to face - That was my response. This is a fact that doesn't lean on any quasi-moral bulwarks to manipulate the conversation.
Your example ignores the fact that you can get anywhere using public roads instead of highways - Which would take more time, but are still very functional. This reinforces my original point. Additionally, beginning your response with made up scenarios is generally a low quality way to frame an argument to your liking, but I'll give you a pass on that.
> Does that make this ok? Nope, Damn well doesn't
Says who? You aren't entitled to any private service. Mind you, you're the one using words like "shouldn't" that don't fall under any moral authority other than the owner of the platform itself.
And that's simply a complete mistruth (I'd call it delusional - in the case of tech companies). They might be private companies, but they cannot (literally - full stop, without room for debate) exist without the infrastructure that we are providing them.
From the roads that they use to provision their datacenters with equipment, to the power we generate with power plants under government supervision, to the police/lawyers/judges that ensure their property rights, to the firefighters who deal with their emergencies. To the cable companies that we subsidize to provide them internet, and connect them to their customers. To the trash we collect from them, the water we provide, the clean air their employees breath.
I don't understand how you keep missing this point. "Private" does not mean self-sufficient, and it is an insufficient standard to claim that being "private" means you have carte-blanch control of how you operate.
This is why we have regulations over all sorts of industries. Do you think private companies are free to ignore accessibility laws? Or that they can violate discrimination laws? Or that they enter into any contract, regardless of the clauses?
Basically - "Ownership" is only a concept that exists BECAUSE we enforce it. There is no such thing as "ownership" without the participation of all of us in this make believe game.
---
So in this case - it's complicated. I think in general I don't mind private companies being allowed to remove users from their platforms, but I think it matters quite a bit what sort of impact that has on the user, and what sort of actions provoked that removal.
Should a store be allowed to remove a jewish person because they are jewish? Nope - damn well shouldn't.
Should a store be allowed to remove a jewish person who is breaking shit and making a mess? Sure.
Should discord be able to ban malicious users spamming other customers? Sure
Should discord be able to ban a user because they changed email addresses? Probably not.
Intent and actions of both parties MATTER.
And simply claiming that it's "Cost efficient" to not deal with problems that are trivial to a company, but utterly life changing to an individual (such as loss to a primary communication channel) is not acceptable. It's cost efficient for the company, and debilitating to the individual - they are harmed immensely so the company can save pennies.
We've long had established law around unequal bargaining power (it's where roughly all of our labor laws come from...) and it's been a concept for literal centuries.
So I'm inclined to say this on the matter:
Just because they currently "can" remove a user for this, doesn't mean that - ethically - we should allow that practice to continue.
It just means our laws are woefully out of date for this application, and technological progress is outpacing political progress.
Edit: Basically - I'm claiming complete and utter rubbish on this
> First off, this is a flawed argument because my taxes don't pay for the servers running Discord or other similar services.
Our taxes DAMN WELL DO pay for discord to be able to run their servers. We pay with our taxes, our time, sometimes our lives - so that the environment in which discord runs their servers can exist at all. Just because discord happen to be paying the costs for the servers themselves is almost immaterial. Society is an organism. We are all part of a whole.
Discord isn't the only group chat platform on the internet. WhatsApp isn't the only text message service out there. As long as you can get on the internet, the highway, you can drive to another club. You can use Matrix. You can use Mastodon. You can use tons of other services out there.
"Private" clubs and golf courses banning only Jewish and black people are not allowed anymore, for reasons.
Ejection from Willowdale Odd Fellows does not keep you out of Springfield Odd Fellows.
Seriously, do you feel the private organization should be able to choose who can be a member or not? Generally speaking, not trying to bring any particular protected class.
Say the Odd Fellows club did ban me, globally. Maybe I had friends I knew through the club. Does the fact I have friends who meet in the club let met petition the government to do violence against the group to enforce my ability to go to the meetings despite the leadership of the group not wanting me there?
Should a church be required to accept everyone in their services, even if that person is running around the room screaming "God is a lie! God is a lie!" Should a restaurant be required to seat every potential customer, even if that customer orders an ice water and starts screaming profanities and making other customers uncomfortable?
Why can't Discord decide to exclude those which abuse their platform?
Another user talking about being banned from Discord was supposedly involved with a server trading child pornography and then continuing to get banned by creating additional accounts which is once again against Discord's terms.
I'm not seeing a lot of examples of people truly getting banned for no reason. It's not my place to tell Discord what is and isn't abuse of their platform. They're allowed to make their own membership rules.
But please, answer my question. Is discord allowed to exclude those who they feel abuse their platform? That's kind of the key point here.
Does that mean they cannot "exclude those who they feel abuse their platform"? That is a tendentious, disingenuous question.
Does that mean they should be obliged to have a legitimate justification for such action, and offer an avenue to challenge it? Yes.
Does it mean the list of justifications should be subject to public review? Yes.
Does it mean that permanent bans for trivial, correctable reasons should not meet the standards of such public review? Yes.
The company which delivers electricity to my house is a utility. I have no choice but to use them.
McDonald's isn't a utility. There's lots of other places I can go to get food.
Discord isn't a utility. There are tons of other chat platforms available on the internet.
Gmail isn't a utility. There are lots of other email hosts available.
Are you seriously suggesting Discord is the only place to communicate on the internet to the point it's a utility like water and power?
Are Odd Fellows a utility?
Is Hacker News a utility?
An NGO I consult for runs its entire business on Google. All its documents are on Google docs, all digital assets on google drive, using google play store for their mobile app, using firebase on the backend ....
They work on children's education, and have lots of photos of children attending their workshops. My biggest fear is that Google AI will identify some photo as objectionable and shut the entire operation down in a hurry. Without recourse.
Sounds like an egregious lack of contingency planning. This situation is the fault of the engineer who stood up their infra. Your argument wouldn't exist if there were a Plan B and Plan C in place.
Do you believe it's fair that your client's lack of preparation is somehow grounds for overreaching government regulation?
No government regulation means existence of these will for all practical purposes depend on Google's whim. I don't see any other viable option, you do? can you elaborate?
lol you're a consultant?
Consider the postal service — imagine if you could permanently lose the right to send things in the mail at the whim of an unaccountable customer service rep in the USPS. No trial, no recourse. Unthinkable. I suspect you CAN be banned if, e.g. you commit mail fraud or send something hazardous, but only after you're convicted with due process. That's the part that's missing. You can argue that the USPS is a government-owned entity and thus different rules apply... but again, that's the point. The carrier of last resort, at least, should be run in a way that is accountable, whether technically government or not.
The current situation is pretty goofy. We've hyper centralized speech into a tiny handful of outlets, with those outlets increasingly recklessly operating with exactly 0 accountability to anybody, in spite of the dramatic and undeniable consequences of their actions are having on both individuals and society at large. IMO the one and only reason this hasn't been dealt with is because we're going through a brief phase of dystopia. Governments seems more interested in trying to myopically exploit the centralization speech to their own benefit, instead of actually thinking of the longterm, to say nothing of making society a better place.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama
It all depends on politics. Some people have opinions on how much court "activism" should be allowed, but they reliably flip the script when one of their pet topics shows up.
People used to insist Antonin Scalia was a sort of "strict constructionist", himself among them. But the moment he got a case where he had a personal opinion that contradicted his "strict" claims, his true colors came out. Then it turned out his strictness really did just mean corporations always win and individuals always lose, as his record had always suggested and his critics had long asserted.
(Never guessed I would have cause to miss him... He was not, anyway, Bork.)
That's not some law of physics. Just a man made law that game them those "use of their private proverty" rights (or rather, rich and powerful people lobbied and bought legislation, and got them for themselves).
We can take them back. And we can also stop treating them as legal "persons" while we're at it.
>You may call them "public spaces" or "public services" but that is an abuse of the word "public".
Public in the legal sense is just what we deem public in the legal sense.
As for public in the dictionary sense, that's irrelevant here.
Besides, after offering a service used by millions, that's basically a public service (I mean in the dictionary sense: directed at a mass public) - and even legal scholars have argued that they function as a kind of public utility (and could/should be regulated as such).
If we're to take it even further, then it's also a historical fact that all countries, including the USA, have nationalized companies (made some private companies public the same way public libraries are, either entirely or in part - e.g. having the state be shareholders of large part of them). So it's not like it's some unprecedent thing.
https://thenextsystem.org/history-of-nationalization-in-the-....
We don't live in a libertarian utopia where private property is not regulated. If you're a store-owner, for example, there are some things you simply cannot do or must allow. In California, for example, a private space, like a mall, has to allow constitutionally protected speech[1].
You can regulate platforms to allow for, say, free speech rights.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...
"under the California Constitution, individuals may peacefully exercise their right to free speech in parts of private shopping centers regularly held open to the public, subject to reasonable regulations adopted by the shopping centers"
I made no judgment on the decision. The decision itself is periphery to my argument, namely that governments are perfectly capable regulating speech on platforms ... because they already are in many many other domains.
Maybe they roll a D20 if you don't fill out the survey and if you roll a 1, you're banned for life (what can I say, they make up the rules for bans). Would the almighty free market really build another grocery store for that 5% of banned people? No... they would go hungry.
AT&T can't restrict who can use their network to make phone calls based on the political views or the content of the call. Why should Google, Facebook, or Twitter? Especially when special liability exemptions were made without which they likely wouldn't even be in business.
Plus we could make them civilly and criminally liable for every bit of fraud, defamation, child porn, copyright violation, and etc. that involves their network.
I know it doesn't, but that doesn't change anything I said. All of the privileges corporations enjoy are negotiable and can be revoked by that which created them in the first place: governments.
If the USG were to approve a publicly-funded centralized chat program and contracted that work out to Discord, I would support/approve subjecting them to the rules people are suggesting here. But that hasn't happened and most likely will not happen.
Just because a company is "private" doesn't mean they can do anything (manufacturing illegal goods, selling things that are harmful, not hire a certain category of people, etc.) We could add to the list of illegal behaviors the fact of denying service without justification and recourse.
Secondly, when those companies confiscate our accounts, they deprive us of what we had stored there (emails, messages, etc.), which should be considered stealing, even if they don't directly profit from the steal.
But most importantly, the size of these companies make them akin to utilities; while not impossible, it's incredibly difficult to operate in today's world without a Gmail account, or in certain circles without access to Instagram, Facebook, Discord, etc.
Given the impact to someone's life to be deprived of such access, the decision should not be left to companies, "private" or not, but supervised public authorities.
In France, the fact, for a professional, of refusing to sell something for no reason is punishable by up to three years in prison[0]. (If the victim sues, the reasons for not selling have to be presented to the judge, who then decides if they're valid or not.) I don't think this has ever been used against a FAANG but it would be a very interesting test.
[0] https://www.economie.gouv.fr/dgccrf/Publications/Vie-pratiqu...
I know, because it happened to me, and it will happen to you, too. Eventually, you'll have a "hot take" on a topic against the hive mind of whatever media you use, and you're done.
If media companies allow public access to their services, they MUST become public spaces, and/or public services. TOS be damned.
If they want to restrict users when they sign up (just an example) "you must be liberal or conservative," fine. They are preemptively limiting their customers to certain conversations. But if they allow everyone in, you cannot mute one set of people.
That will inevitably lead to more government spying at the end of the day. No thanks.
Nice example you gave, because this literally happened between 2002 and 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List The No Fly List eventually swelled to close to a million people. There was no one entity you could sue, because airlines had their own algorithms for matching, so even if you werent on the list, but the algo fuzzy-matched you, you were effectively on the list. Matching names is notoriously bad. There was an ACLU lawsuit, but it was a much bigger effort than anything being described on this thread.
In summary: lawsuits against Government systems are slow and not necessarily something to aspire to as a better system.
there is a different fundamental problem at play.
This should be the case even if the tenant isn't paying cash for services.
As long as people willingly subscribe to services whose terms explicitly allow to ban users for no reason whatsoever, no. I don't see how this will ever stop.
I just want to delete my account at this point, but I can't since I can't log in.
If you object, don't click "I agree" to terms of service that you don't feel comfortable with.
It's like a prisoner's dilemma. You can complain about how people always defect on you, but you're doing the exact same thing.
Meanwhile everyone you know clicks "I agree" and you are now excluded from communicating with them. What did this accomplish?
More seriously, it's like an act of civil disobedience. If everybody acted similarly, we would not have these problems. Most people won't wise up until their kin are personally harmed by one of these massive unaccountable institutions, and until that happens to enough people, you have to recognize that acting in accordance with your principles will not always be the most convenient path through life.
This isn't free or even possible for a lot of people. I think it would be better for society for this cost to be imposed on the Discords/Metas/Googles of the world, than for it to be imposed on their users.
I really don't get why you absolutely want to bring blockchain into this. You don't need any kind of cryptographic proof, or ledger, or anything to replace Instagram: all you need is a website on your own domain and you can even host it from an old laptop at home: the web is already decentralized.
Except people don't do that. I don't exactly know why, maybe it's laziness, maybe it's herd behavior, maybe that's the power of marketing, the economy of scale or anything but that's it, people just keep using centralized platforms and that's as true in the blockchain world, people just buy NFT on OpenSea or store their tokens in Coinbase's wallet. The natural dynamic drives to centralization.
If you try to address this social problem with “cool” technology, you won't achieve anything, centralization will happen regardless.
Now since we cannot change the humans being living in this society, we can at least change the laws regulating the said society and stop all that bullshit by making these gigacorps accountable for their actions.
Now if you live in the US and you think the regulations cannot change because the politicians are corrupt, then you should fix your political system first, because no blockchain will protect you against your corrupt governments anyway.
I don't think it can. The problem is that these companies are trying to solve the problem of highly sophisticated attackers, at scale.
>I could sleep way better if I knew that two have to mess up for me to lose my digital life. Me and the platform.
You're trying to solve a cultural, legal, and regulatory problem with a technological solution - that's never going to work. That a user can be banned (sometimes, across all the platforms, all at once) is a feature for the regulators and platforms themselves.
A nominal payment for the purpose of verification could allow someone to "prove" ownership of a number/email/identity.
1) Not really .. people can steal your private key. And then you have to same problem.
2) Don't payment processor already have inordinate amount of (government-issued) identity data they collect from you? Everything from Driver's license, to Passport, to Social Insurance numbers? How would another piece of information make any difference?
More like "Brazil". In 1984 at least things wasn't also commercialized, and shit worked.
- various private blocklists pop up identifying alleged spammers. These have a false positive rate, but they're useful enough to become popular
- deliverability starts to become an issue; some people can't deliver because they're on a blocklist
- people start to notice that a big, popular service has both good antispam and good deliverability
- after a while, everyone's back on big, popular services which occasionally false-positive ban people.
1. if a person I am interesting in delivery to blocks me by mistake - I have an option to ask him to unblock me by other communication means.
2. if my opponent in a public discussion blocks me, other people can still see my arguments.
Both these benefits are absent in a centralized blocking system, no? And I do not see any drawbacks, are there some?
For private, personal use at least, you don’t need this for a service that competes with discord. I’m not allowing random strangers into my chats, having an allowlist basically makes spam a non issue.
Now, that doesn’t fix the problem for public channels, but spam/trolling is always an issue on those anyways, and frankly, I don’t understand how people can use discord for that purpose in the first place.
Its just common sense that a spam bot should be nuked on sight but a legitimate user should get a fair hearing before you ban them. Ideally the social media platforms would do something akin to Wikipedia's arbitration committee (basically the Supreme Court of Wikipedia) but scalable by hiring a suitably diverse pool of "unskilled" people for a $15 an hour or so remote job where they decide if a longtime legitimate user should be banned. I think this system would do a much better job of avoiding false positives. A properly functioning spam bot detector shouldn't be detecting any legitimate longtime users whatsoever.
Banning email addresses without sufficient notice to allow accounts tied to that email to be moved to another email should be illegal. You should also have a legal right to access your digital purchases even if your account is banned. There's nothing wrong with not wanting a customer any longer but you shouldn't be able to cause irreparable harm to your customer on their way out the door and there should be safeguards in place to ensure you don't fire any customers by mistake.
Answer: then you have lost access due to circumstances completely within your control. Contrast that with the amount of control you have over losing your account with a social company. IOW, that’s a total bullshit argument.
Sure, assuming I had an Instagram, Discord, or Google account, which I currently do not, they could ban me at any moment and not give a reason, but what is the actual risk? I'm aware they do these things, more than zero times, but as a proportion of total users, how many people does this actually happen to? Is the risk similar to the risk of getting eaten by a shark I take every time I swim in the ocean? Or is it similar to the risk I take running across a highway at 5 in the morning? One of those things doesn't really worry me and one of them does, enough that I never do it.
Without any knowledge of the actual rates at which these events happen, what are we supposed to do with these stories? Sure, we see stories several times a week. But these services have billions of users. If it's really a few users a week, my chances of hitting the lottery are greater. If it's thousands of users a week, then it's something worth worrying about.
Note that this is entirely separate from the discussion everyone else seems to always be having of whether privately-owned computers that host and serve user-submitted multimedia files should be able to legally ban people at all.
If all of these services implemented the policies and procedures needed to bring the number of stories like this to zero, there would be thousands upon thousands of stories about how "BiG tEcH rEfUsEs To SoLvE sPaM aNd FrAuD pRoBlEm".
C'mon. Be real. You know it, I know it, I know you know it, and you know that I know that you know it.
What you DON'T see, regarding all of these stories, is that they almost always get resolved.
Resolutions aren't sexy. Rage is.
"Oh nevermind, my account is back" Doesn't get clicks. OMG THIS MEGACORP DELETED MY SOUL, MY IDENTITY, MY PASSION does.
You don't like this. I know. But there's nothing you, or I, or anyone, or an infinite number of laws or lawsuits can do.
We all know nobody is going to, or realistically is capable of, staffing with humans to such a degree that it will solve this problem.
So you're gonna just have to deal with it.
I'd say Kafka. On the bright side, so far no one has woken up and googled himself and seen page after pages of cockroach pictures, not yet at least.
Courts of no worth. Not constructive, only letting a very bullshit trial pass barely once after 80 years of lobotomies doubling their bet every time they lose, martingale, yeah, and had to have the planets align too, and never once falsely confess to anything, that's like day...uh...day...uh...well there I'm lost. Lost track of time.
Like that is shit. Supreme Court knows which country it's in, like why do they need to get sucked up to to that extent to be willing to answer a brain surgeon? Can he even code? Richest specialty of the richest career, to be rich be a doctor once you're a doctor be a brain surgeon, best of the best. Not the best, but come on. No malpractice suits from patients, as far as the patients can tell? Perfection every time!
Like if it did happen, how would you find out? Being told by a factual blog? Search engine? Words? Report? Truth? Text? Dude idealist on a crusade! Moth to a flame!
No like you know I can do the better thing and make a search engine, just in order to show off a blog, just in order to parade pictures of cockroaches. I'm remembering one now, [flash 17:21 Sep 19 2022], Giant Cockroach from Urza's Legacy in mtg, 3{B} 4/2 no abilities. Vanilla. I remembered the name, looked it up, that's googling myself, there's the pictures.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=giant+cockroach+mtg&t=osx&iax=imag...
Boom, there it is. Flashed on it today at that time, the memory was erased, it came back with the specific flashback sensation, I wrote the time down, that's all there is. What's next? Dude any other literature? Chinese torture, something, hardcore shit. Like why not write an entire novel that only takes place inside a torture chamber, a torture chamber retaliation? Dream of the red chamber, dream of the torture chamber ever touched by sunlight, dude don't bore me with hope. Hope will fuck with me as it will, but don't distract from the pain. Like only in the obliuette, [flash 17:25 Sep 19 2022 obliuette], like why zoom out? What else is worth talking about? At least the torture happens in person, not through a camera. The last form of human contact.
No, the hatred is for the next sentence, which is "Buy my cryptocurrency".
Just simple JSON messages signed with public-key cryptography (Schnorr) relayed over Websockets. Send your events to many relays so if one chooses to evict you it's not an issue.
Just don't rely on a third party to keep your private key. Not your key, not your identity.
Happy to connect with you or anyone else reading this and trade ideas / give updates, email in bio.
At first you get an automated response from some bot which is unhelpfull. After some more diggin and poking around you get to a human but they just told me that they don't know details about flagging and cannot do anything in regards to these processes. So basically useless.
I really don't understand why it got so popular
edit: typo
Because enough people never contact support for it to not be a major problem, I assume.
And absolutely stop calling for the use of violence (regulations by government) in these situations. Just because Bob says you cannot come over to the weekly neighborhood BBQs in his backyard does not mean it is ethical for you to call up your police friend to threaten Bob and to make sure you can go. It doesn't matter if you're right and he's wrong. It doesn't matter if everyone in the neighborhood continues to chose to go to his BBQs and you can't. It's still Bob's backyard and he isn't inititing violence against you. Don't do it to him.
Not sure about the regulatory part with Bob’s backyard. What about when Bob intentionally persuades everyone to route all their packages and mail through his house, which he routinely opens, reads and studies to determine their preferences and desires and compile psychological profiles of everyone in the neighborhood which he then discloses to various unidentified third parties including law enforcement, debt collectors, abusers and criminals? What about when Bob uses his control to deny people access to their own communications and stuff, on the grounds that they’re actually his now because it’s at his house and he decided for unspecified reasons that they broke one of his vague and unilaterally-defined rules? What if Bob does this at such a scale that he can now assist the government in undermining the constitutional protections against unwarranted searches, or uses his influence and knowledge to purposefully stoke and manipulate anger in ways that he KNOWS he can’t control and will get people killed or at least ruin their lives, but at least makes him more money?
Do Bob’s property rights need to be balanced against other societal needs then?
It's already balanced. All anyone has to do is make a personal choice rather than invoking calls for coersion.
On the one hand many people more or less voluntarily use private companies’ free services and are surprised when they are shut out for arbitrary reasons. On the other, regulation is decried as government overreach.
Then there are the inevitable technologist voices calling for yet another technical solution for an issue created by technology and economic liberalism in the first place.
This is a social and legal issue, not a technical one.
In many cases there are reasonable OSS alternatives (here, Discord itself!) but not everyone wants to be a part-time sysadmin.
Free/Libre Open-Source Software as a Service, anyone?
I hadn't added the phone number to my old account and when I later wanted to do so I was informed it could only be assigned to one.
So I removed the number from the new account, which immediately got banned, and then added it to my old account without a problem.
Something about "new account without phone" discord seems to dislike.
My old account also had some money spent with them, which possibly saved it.
I remember years ago Microsoft thought someone was pirating their software so they started reading their emails looking for evidence. That seemed wrong to me. A landlord wouldn’t be allowed to snoop through your drawers if they thought you were stealing, they’d need to convince the police to get a warrant.
And in this discord case, once a company agrees to create an account for you and start providing service, they shouldn’t be allowed to “evict” you overnight for no good reason. There should be a proper process with protections when ending the relationship.
You should explain this to your employer and not use a gaming communication platform for work purposes.
Matrix is trivial to self-host.